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I thought Man of Steel was a good movie. It was fun, had great actors, really updated the Superman mythos and had some very epic, well choreographed fight scenes.

But I did not like the random, unnecessary destruction in the movie. I felt Superman would've done everything he could to avoid risking human lives while battling the Kryptonians. From the absolutely stupid fight in the small town where streets, Sears and Ihops are randomly destroyed, to the battle in Metropolis where the U.S. Military helps cause death and destruction by sending in jets they already know are useless! These jets become exploding projectiles even after their missiles bounce harmlessly off of the enemy ship and destroy several buildings.

Well, a scientific group did a study of how many people they estimate were killed in the slugfest along with the astronomical cost of the destruction of several skyscrapers.

http://www.zimbio.com/Henry+Cavill/articles/u1fi88FQ6Th/Real+Life+Scientists+Calculate+Death+Toll

So really? Superman, Zod, and the U.S. Military kill an estimated 100,000 people at least and cause 2 trillion in damage to save the world? If I was a random Metropolis citizen I would be as terrorized of Superman as I was of Zod! I would hope Superman never comes back to my city to save us again!

Good for you. Hope you enjoy coughing out your lungs as the Kryptonians terraform the Earth.

BTW, the vast majority of those killed would be due to the World Engine and not Zod's/Supe's fight.

The destruction could have been handled better. I understand that Snyder and goyer wanted to show just how devastating a battle between godlike beings would be. It would not be pretty and there would be casualties, Superman cannot save them all. however there are times where Superman just shows off instead of being effective and smart to keep the destruction down. I know Superman is a noob in this movie, but there is a scene that just irks me. It is when Zod kicks the gas truck at Superman and instead of grabbing and holding it, Superman just casually leaps between an open space and just stands there all cool while the thing explodes and destroys its fair share of a multi floored parking. Just makes me shake my head.

The other theory I've heard is this was a learning curve for Supes, both the massive death, destruction and how he handles Zod at the end of the movie. These are hard learned lessons that Supes will try to avoid in future confrontations. That would make some sense, but I also think Kal is a smart enough guy to learn his lesson before the massive death and destruction occurs.

Honestly I will rather pay that amount of money vs the destruction and annihilation of the entire Human Civilization.

Now I wonder what will be the death toll and damage cost if Superman hadn't step up to save the world, just let them do their thing and probably even joining them, what would have been the cost of that?

IF saving the whole human race takes to destroy the whole human race, then What's the point.

But If in order to save the body I have to cut a hand, then I believe the smart move is to cut the hand and save the body.

Death toll? Avengers had it worse, they killed an armada, nearly destroyed NYC with an Nitrogen Bomb, and the countless who died in the invasion. Most of the death toll in MoS were side effects of beings who had god like power. I would have been dissappointed if only 20 humans died.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Death toll? Avengers had it worse, they killed an armada, nearly destroyed NYC with an Nitrogen Bomb, and the countless who died in the invasion. Most of the death toll in MoS were side effects of beings who had god like power. I would have been dissappointed if only 20 humans died.
To be fair, the chitauri probably don't count where death toll is concerned, faceless bad guys never do.

That's dumb then. As long as it ain't humans, who care, right?

Right.

But one interesting fact; Superman is shown fighting inside a building and it was empty. No other shot of inside the buildings was given. Hulk by contrast runs through a building with people in it.

SMH critics.

Superman was reckless as f*ck in this movie. This is the kind of world where Lex Luthor calling Superman a menace and trying to take him out would be completely justified instead of being the ranting of an insane and jealous lunatic.

Yeah, but Hulk doesn't kill anyone.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Death toll? Avengers had it worse, they killed an armada, nearly destroyed NYC with an Nitrogen Bomb, and the countless who died in the invasion. Most of the death toll in MoS were side effects of beings who had god like power. I would have been dissappointed if only 20 humans died.

What? How can you even begin to compare the death toll in Avengers to Man of Steel? In terms of human lives anyways, much less were lost. The Avengers went out of their way to contain the threat to evacuated areas and reducing collateral damage to the minimum.

I don't think some understand. The problem isn't with people dying in large numbers, the problem is Superman aiding in these deaths.

For example, in Smallville he directly flies Zod through a Nuclear Reactor or whatever (Surprised if he didn't cause some kind of meltdown or give some innocents cancer) and into the heart of a populated town. Like, what the f*ck?

Or how about him tossing the big Kryptonian into a f*cking train? Probably killed the conductors with that shit.

He just comes off as dumb imho the moment we pay any attention to what's going on. It's like he only cares about people if he can see them otherwise they might as well not exist.

The Hulk should not be a better hero than Superman. I'm not even a hardcore fan but this frustrates me to no end, if this was Thor, I'd be raging.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman was reckless as f*ck in this movie. This is the kind of world where Lex Luthor calling Superman a menace and trying to take him out would be completely justified instead of being the ranting of an insane and jealous lunatic.

Yeah, but Hulk doesn't kill anyone.



What? How can you even begin to compare the death toll in Avengers to Man of Steel? In terms of human lives anyways, much less were lost. The Avengers went out of their way to contain the threat to evacuated areas and reducing collateral damage to the minimum.

I don't think some understand. The problem isn't with people dying in large numbers, the problem is Superman aiding in these deaths.

For example, in Smallville he directly flies Zod through a Nuclear Reactor or whatever (Surprised if he didn't cause some kind of meltdown or give some innocents cancer) and into the heart of a populated town. Like, what the f*ck?

Or how about him tossing the big Kryptonian into a f*cking train? Probably killed the conductors with that shit.

He just comes off as dumb imho the moment we pay any attention to what's going on. It's like he only cares about people if he can see them otherwise they might as well not exist.

The Hulk should not be a better hero than Superman. I'm not even a hardcore fan but this frustrates me to no end, if this was Thor, I'd be raging.



Everything you said, on top of the fact that the costume was too dark, didn't have enough red on it, and that they didn't even start calling him Superman (and then it was used only twice i believe in the movie) until the last 30 minutes, all contributed to this not feeling like a Superman movie, but something...else.

Where was the ****ing joy of seeing the greatest hero ever prevail? He didn't prevail over shit. He contributed to the destruction greatly, and then failed to bring about a conclusion that he could be proud of.

Quoting myself in the MOS thread:

Originally posted by Ize19
I have to say, I LOVED this movie! It takes the number 2 spot right behind Avengers for me. There are two complaints about this movie, that I think aren't very well thought out...

As for the death and destruction Superman was involved in, I don't blame him for it. Remember that for his whole life, Superman has been the most powerful being in the world. Just take a look at his face while he is fighting Faora, he is legitimately shocked that ANYONE could dodge him! He wasn't exactly thinking rationally when he first attacks Zod, who was threatening Ma Kent, and didn't expect him to be able to respond, or for Faora and her partner to be the threat they were.

As for his later fight, Zod didn't give him a choice. Zod attacked first, then declared that he'd kill humanity to make him pay, meaning that Superman's only option to save as many lives as he could, was to take down Zod as quickly as he could. Remember, this is his debut as a superhero, and after he kills Zod, who was the last of his race, I see him going to much greater pains to avoid the death and destruction of all life, especially human.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? How can you even begin to compare the death toll in Avengers to Man of Steel? In terms of human lives anyways, much less were lost. The Avengers went out of their way to contain the threat to evacuated areas and reducing collateral damage to the minimum.

I don't think some understand. The problem isn't with people dying in large numbers, the problem is Superman aiding in these deaths.

For example, in Smallville he directly flies Zod through a Nuclear Reactor or whatever (Surprised if he didn't cause some kind of meltdown or give some innocents cancer) and into the heart of a populated town. Like, what the f*ck?

Or how about him tossing the big Kryptonian into a f*cking train? Probably killed the conductors with that shit.

He just comes off as dumb imho the moment we pay any attention to what's going on. It's like he only cares about people if he can see them otherwise they might as well not exist.

The Hulk should not be a better hero than Superman. I'm not even a hardcore fan but this frustrates me to no end, if this was Thor, I'd be raging.

How can I compare the death toll? Are you kidding with the human lives? Yeah Superman gets the "OMG HE KILLED ZOD", but the countless of people, Tony, Thor, Hulk, and the rest of the Avengers took didn't even register in people's thoughts. Lets forget the countless of alien lives that were taken thanks to Tony. But hey it's okay, they are aliens right? Had they been Soviets, Nazi's, North Koreans, it would be okay, right?

As for Superman's inability to consider Human lives? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? This it the guy who let his own father die for his beliefs; the same person who destroyed any hopes (so far) of getting Krypton back just so he can save earth. I'm sorry you feel so saddened that Superman can't stop a fight with 2 Kryptionians who probably have more combat experience and understanding than him to try and safe someone.

Now I'm not trying to be a douche when I say this, but please, everyone including you who have this belief that heroes can save lives while fighting need to stop thinking that way. Sure it can happen when you are fighting at the level like those we see in movies like Avengers, Hulk, X-Men, or even Thor, but it isn't happening at the level MoS is. The fact that people here expect Superman to just take the fight someone outside of Metropolis is laughable and ignorant. I'm sure Zod is going to be a totally moron and not exploit Superman's weakness. I'm sure Zod is a total idiot and will just follow Superman out of metropolis.

Also, as far as death toll goes, yes MoS has the most. If it had anything less I would have been disappointing. We saw the technology that Kryptonians posses and how many "Supermen" they have. I can't see realistically how you can expect death tolls, or damage to be low when the only thing that can beat them is a guy who at most can barely beat one other Kryptonian 1 vs 1. I'm sorry you feel so hurt that Superman while fighting 2 Kryptonians wasn't able to do everything he can to throw his opponents anywhere else. It's not like if he had thrown him in a building no one would have died, right? It's not like Superman didn't tell people to run/hide. It's not like I expect you to have common sense and believe that the residents of Metropolis and Smallvile don't have an idea about taking cover, shelter, or trying leaving the area. It's not like Avengers where a Police Officer trained (IN NYC NO LESS) , doesn't have a F&&^ING CLUE what to do in case of an emergency. I'm sure TOTALLY that he can't follow procedures about what to do in case of an attack, like you know, evaluating citizens, or taking perimeter around anomaly. I totally get that Captain American, a man who was frozen in ice for over 50 years knows and has more common sense than a Police Officer on evacuating citizen

Spoon fed much?

Earth was lucky Zod did not have his dozen + kryptonians wreck hell.

Metropolis or the whole world? Well, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...in this case, the need to survive.

This is not your father's Superman. Was never meant to be. I, personally, wanted to see massive destruction, and this flick delivered. But I can understand the disappointment(?) many feel.

Oh who cares? He was a Newb. And it was awesome seeing Noob Superman wrecklessly fight Zod all over the place.

Plus it really will be believable now if people support Lex against Superman. Kind of reminded me of the JLU episode when Superman fights Captain Marvel completely recklessly, and by the end of it Lex has all the good PR.

For those who hate that, and want Superman being the sensible and careful good guy, and Lex being obviously evil to everyone, go watch Superman Returns again.

ooohh, I forgot the superman/shazam fight.. they did do a f*ck ton of damage..

anyways, I think a fraction of metropolis is a small price for the salvation of the entire human race and the planet..

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Plus it really will be believable now if people support Lex against Superman. Kind of reminded me of the JLU episode when Superman fights Captain Marvel completely recklessly, and by the end of it Lex has all the good PR.That was a good episode.

I tend to really like when superheroes are seen as outsiders, something to be feared because they're not understood, or the powers-that-be feel their security is being threatened. It's one of the reasons I always liked the Surfer. Now if Superman gets that treatment...not only would it be more realistic (imo), but it sets up lots of potential for interesting drama between "us" and "him."

100,000 dead and 2 trillion in damage pales considerably compared to 7 billion dead (extinction) and the entire sum of the humanities' finances.

I really don't understand the "people died and shit was wrecked" complaints, it's a superhero film where the planet/humanity was threatened, not a Care Bears movie.

edit: would anyone really have wanted some scene of Superman calling out Zod and crew to settle their dispute in a desert, Zod accepting like a dunce and all we see is sand dunes being leveled, or similar?

Yeah, all it really is is people hating on the movie unfairly. Either they buy all the hate from the critics or they just plain don't like anything with supes in it and want to do whatever they can to make him look bad. Did everyone forget that zod said he was going to kill every human on the planet? He wanted to kill people to hurt Superman. He freaking said exactly that.

How could Supes have taken him out of Metropolis? Zod can fly at that point. If Supes tried to lead him away he would have simply not followed and wrecked the city further and the death toll would have risen even further until Supes came back, because Zod knew that killing people would hurt Supes.

Seriously, just because the avengers didn't focus on the destruction doesn't mean it didn't occur. That's just ignorant. It's pretty retarded to harp on the fact that people might have died during Supes's and Zod's fight and then give the avengers a free pass on the same thing. Anyone saying that people weren't killed during the avengers battle is in denial. Terrible terrible denial.

Let's also look at Thor's movie. When the destroyer armor showed up and Thor got his powers back, did he take the fight out of the town? No, he actually CREATED A DAMN TORNADO IN THE CENTER OF THAT TOWN. There is no way people didn't die because of that. Why does no one complain about that?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh who cares? He was a Newb. And it was awesome seeing Noob Superman wrecklessly fight Zod all over the place.

Plus it really will be believable now if people support Lex against Superman. Kind of reminded me of the JLU episode when Superman fights Captain Marvel completely recklessly, and by the end of it Lex has all the good PR.

For those who hate that, and want Superman being the sensible and careful good guy, and Lex being obviously evil to everyone, go watch Superman Returns again.


agreed..


Now that Mark Strong is being considered for Lex, he should be really good at getting people to hate Superman in the sequel

Originally posted by Robtard
100,000 dead and 2 trillion in damage pales considerably compared to 7 billion dead (extinction) and the entire sum of the humanities' finances.

I really don't understand the "people died and shit was wrecked" complaints, it's a superhero film where the planet/humanity was threatened, not a Care Bears movie.

edit: would anyone really have wanted some scene of Superman calling out Zod and crew to settle their dispute in a desert, Zod accepting like a dunce and all we see is sand dunes being leveled, or similar? I was about to make some of the same points. Superman had to stop Zod, or else Zod was going to kill every single human on earth(by his own accord.) 100,000 humans may have died as a result of their battle(remember, that is just speculation at this point), but even if 500,000 humans died, that is still vastly better than the alternative of 7 BILLION deaths which would have resulted from not fighting/killing Zod then and there.

It seems like people are quick to whine/nitpick before they consider context. Supes did what he had to do in that situation-- lets not act like Zod and his goons would have obliged had Superman said in the midst of battle: "Excuse me... Would you chaps mind taking our fight to a remote location several thousand miles from here? I doant wunt ne peeple 2 git hert!"

If you guys want a 'wholesome' Superman, then go watch every other Superman film that's been made.

I mean, do people really think every fight scene should have happened in outer space or the desert? Seriously, if that where the case people would be complaining even worse than they are now. No way to win it seems. Also, rage complaining about Supes punching that other krytponian into a train is lulz worthy. So, what should have happened then? Should we have seen a Superman movie where no damage happens in every fight? How well exactly would that have gone over?

What about the hulk movie where hulk fights abomination in the city? How many people died during that? That's right, its not Superman so no one is complaining about that.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Yeah, all it really is is people hating on the movie unfairly. Either they buy all the hate from the critics or they just plain don't like anything with supes in it and want to do whatever they can to make him look bad. Did everyone forget that zod said he was going to kill every human on the planet? He wanted to kill people to hurt Superman. He freaking said exactly that.

How could Supes have taken him out of Metropolis? Zod can fly at that point. If Supes tried to lead him away he would have simply not followed and wrecked the city further and the death toll would have risen even further until Supes came back, because Zod knew that killing people would hurt Supes.

Seriously, just because the avengers didn't focus on the destruction doesn't mean it didn't occur. That's just ignorant. It's pretty retarded to harp on the fact that people might have died during Supes's and Zod's fight and then give the avengers a free pass on the same thing. Anyone saying that people weren't killed during the avengers battle is in denial. Terrible terrible denial.

Let's also look at Thor's movie. When the destroyer armor showed up and Thor got his powers back, did he take the fight out of the town? No, he actually CREATED A DAMN TORNADO IN THE CENTER OF THAT TOWN. There is no way people didn't die because of that. Why does no one complain about that?

The town had emptied by that point; it was just Thor's fellow Asgardians and Jane Foster's group left.

I'm willing to give Superman a pass for what happens in MOS. He's new and just starting to perfect his powers at last; he's not like the veteran Supes who took on Zod & his henchmen in Superman II. I was concerned with the first YouTube clip that had him blowing Zod through the fields, the farm towers and finally into downtown Smallville. But I chalk that up to his inexperience, and he was doing his best to save the townspeople and soldiers during the fight with Faora. I never felt like he was indifferent to the humans around him, as some critics have claimed.

What kind of reasoning is this?

A few million dead is better then 7 billion? This kind of talk should make Superman sick to his stomach. It's never acceptable to sacrifice lives.

You remember in the first Spider-Man movie where Goblin put Spider-Man in an impossible situation but he ended up saving Mary Jane and the children? Or when Loki overloaded the Bifrost and Thor figured that he could destroy it instead?

Heroes are put in impossible situations often, but the reason why they're heroes is because they find solutions for impossible situations. And Superman is the greatest hero of all.

I'm not hating on the movie, I'm criticizing which is perfectly reasonable. And the reason I'm doing this is because of how big of a fan I am of Superman's character. He's Superman, it's never acceptable to put innocents in danger, he doesn't have to be a ten year superhero veteran to know not to fly into a populated town causing deaths.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
How can I compare the death toll? Are you kidding with the human lives? Yeah Superman gets the "OMG HE KILLED ZOD", but the countless of people, Tony, Thor, Hulk, and the rest of the Avengers took didn't even register in people's thoughts. Lets forget the countless of alien lives that were taken thanks to Tony. But hey it's okay, they are aliens right? Had they been Soviets, Nazi's, North Koreans, it would be okay, right?

How are you comparing innocent people of different nationality to Frost Giants (Soldiers I might add) and Chitauri Robot soldier drones?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
As for Superman's inability to consider Human lives? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? This it the guy who let his own father die for his beliefs; the same person who destroyed any hopes (so far) of getting Krypton back just so he can save earth. I'm sorry you feel so saddened that Superman can't stop a fight with 2 Kryptionians who probably have more combat experience and understanding than him to try and safe someone.

Yes, Clark was extremely reckless in this movie with how he fought. He at times actively diverted combat into populated zones.

I don't understand how Superman watching his father die to preserve his secret changes this.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Now I'm not trying to be a douche when I say this, but please, everyone including you who have this belief that heroes can save lives while fighting need to stop thinking that way. Sure it can happen when you are fighting at the level like those we see in movies like Avengers, Hulk, X-Men, or even Thor, but it isn't happening at the level MoS is. The fact that people here expect Superman to just take the fight someone outside of Metropolis is laughable and ignorant. I'm sure Zod is going to be a totally moron and not exploit Superman's weakness. I'm sure Zod is a total idiot and will just follow Superman out of metropolis.

So Superman was put into a difficult situation that should be almost impossible to figure out. But you know why it's exactly something he should be capable of? Because he's Superman, impossible is what he does. How can you be a fan of the character and not understand that about him?

Also, it's not just about Zod killing people but Superman actively contributing to it. For example, Zod kicked a truck at Clark and he casually dodges and lets another building (A parking garage) get destroyed as a result. Like what the hell is that about? It looked cool but a few scared cowering civilians were probably killed as a result.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Also, as far as death toll goes, yes MoS has the most. If it had anything less I would have been disappointing. We saw the technology that Kryptonians posses and how many "Supermen" they have. I can't see realistically how you can expect death tolls, or damage to be low when the only thing that can beat them is a guy who at most can barely beat one other Kryptonian 1 vs 1. I'm sorry you feel so hurt that Superman while fighting 2 Kryptonians wasn't able to do everything he can to throw his opponents anywhere else. It's not like if he had thrown him in a building no one would have died, right? It's not like Superman didn't tell people to run/hide. It's not like I expect you to have common sense and believe that the residents of Metropolis and Smallvile don't have an idea about taking cover, shelter, or trying leaving the area. It's not like Avengers where a Police Officer trained (IN NYC NO LESS) , doesn't have a F&&^ING CLUE what to do in case of an emergency. I'm sure TOTALLY that he can't follow procedures about what to do in case of an attack, like you know, evaluating citizens, or taking perimeter around anomaly. I totally get that Captain American, a man who was frozen in ice for over 50 years knows and has more common sense than a Police Officer on evacuating citizen

Spoon fed much?

So Superman preserving lives in a situation where no one else probably could would be disappointing? Are you a fan of the powers or the character?

Now you're just rambling nonsense because you're upset I disagree with you. Superman wasn't nonchalant about human lives but he was extremely reckless for someone with his type of power. This isn't really debatable.

Compare that to the Avengers who spent the entire movie minimizing collateral damage and containing it to evacuated zones, Superman looks like an out of control child.

Originally posted by Galan007
I was about to make some of the same points. Superman had to stop Zod, or else Zod was going to kill every single human on earth(by his own accord.) 100,000 humans may have died as a result of their battle(remember, that is just speculation at this point), but even if 500,000 humans died, that is still vastly better than the alternative of 7 BILLION deaths which would have resulted from not fighting/killing Zod then and there.

It seems like people are quick to whine/nitpick before they consider context. Supes did what he had to do in that situation-- lets not act like Zod and his goons would have obliged had Superman said in the midst of battle: "Excuse me... Would you chaps mind taking our fight to a remote location several thousand miles from here? I doant wunt ne peeple 2 git hert!"

If you guys want a 'wholesome' Superman, then go watch every other Superman film that's been made.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How are you comparing innocent people of different nationality to Frost Giants (Soldiers I might add) and Chitauri Robot soldier drones?
Chitauri could have been brainwashed, or whatever. They are still part of the damage.

See it all goes back to this belief that you think Superman had the ability to divert fights where he wants against people who are his equals if not superiors. I can understand if they are weaker, in which case, I'd agree with you. But his enemies were his superiors in everything but flight.


Yes, except this movie is suppose to show you a little of the dark side. It's more realistic. Seriously, just watch Superman Returns. Superman saves metropolis as it was being destroyed. He reverts some gas lines, catches the daily planet, and burns the glass/debris in one block. YUP, that is realistic. Only one block experienced glass breaking Keep in mind, he was able to do this because he had no enemy

I'm sure all of the citizens were cowering behind in the apartments. Not like you know, they ran, or got evacuated like what most people would probably do. Also, did you see anyone die there? I'm sure you didn't, but you assume they did. Can I assume that people died during the invasion of Chitauri?

I'm a fan. A big fan, and I know the character more than you can know. Yet, I don't see that being crazy. Sure, it works in comics, but in comics, there is a reason for it. The movie had other reasons. That's not what this argument is about
No, it's just that he was too reckless because you are looking at this movie as a comic book
Yes, we didn't see no one die. The Chitauri were soo idiotic to attack a planet who contain Hydrogen Bombs. I'm sorry that a race of beings who live god knows where, with god knows what kind of technology have no weapon that is considered in the category as WOMD. Never mind that Avengers had Superman beat in number of members and the type of enemy they had. After all, it's not like the enemy possessed weapons close to Kryptonians or Hulk for that matter; not like they had anything but some people on scooters. Not like they had weapons that can changed the planet's gravitational pull, or atmosphere

NO, Avengers is about strong gods, Heroes, and Hulk who fight Aliens sooo advanced that they didn't have any WOMD. It was about a group of heroes who COMMAND A POLICE OFFICER and direct him on HOW to evacuate people during an attack. Because, it's not like NYC didn't experience that before or still for that matter. Avengers is your comic book adaption, it follows guidelines much like comic books, which is why is why you like it more. I like movies more darker and realistic; those that show a things a bit more darker.

I didn't read most of the thread, though I assume that my viewpoint isn't going to be one that many share.

I think people are going WAY overboard with this "he's not really Superman because Superman would have saved all of those people".

The **** he would. The fact that he saved the world AT ALL makes him Superman, imo.

The guy had just learned how to fly. He'd never even been in a fight before, and he was being tasked with fighting off an invasion by highly trained beings that were able to physically harm him. He had all of a few days before he was forced in to combat, and he was still learning how to use his powers in a combat situation, as he'd never been forced to use them in that manner before.

Also, the destruction, the world engine etc? If they're going to make the danger big enough so that real stakes are involved, then people are going to die. They have to convey the fact that if this guy fails, he won't get a second chance. World goes boom. We're all ****ed, and only Superman can save us. They did that, imo.

There's also the point that before Superman even fought Zod, people had been evacuating the site around the ship in Metropolis. Sure, some people would have died, but I think it's being ridiculously overstated.

This is a Superman that's only started. Superman wasn't born refusing to kill, or believing in the sanctity of life. He had to learn the value of such things during his education. The only reason "current" comic Superman is able to perform these insane feats of saving everyone and stopping the villain at the same time is because he learned how to do it. He has years of experience doing it.

This guy doesn't. He will get there, but Superman isn't Superman if his beliefs and morals aren't built on experience and hard lessons he'd learned.

In fact, the end of the movie could very well BE the catalyst for him becoming that guy, even if he had a vague idea already.

**** yeah, PR. Took the words out of my mouth.

lol, when I saw your name on the thread, for some reason I was so sure you'd disagree with me. I'm glad you didn't, though.

People wanting a Superman who never fails to save anyone...there's lots of Grant Morrison comics for you to read. That's his idealization of what the character is - I think this film is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Superman does triumph, but there's lots of collateral damage. That's part of the (necessary) new realism he needs for the movies, now.

For the people that's bitching about Superman not being in character, it seems that they've never read anything about the original Superman. Am talking Schuster and Siegel here.

There Superman, the original version was a no nonsense guy, he'll let a bad guy walk to there deaths or threaten and carries out said threats if they didn't confess.

I honestly don't know why people ***** about such mundane things. It's okay for other Superheroes to be reckless, but when it's Superman, people gets butt hurt with no real backing.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Chitauri could have been brainwashed, or whatever. They are still part of the damage.

See it all goes back to this belief that you think Superman had the ability to divert fights where he wants against people who are his equals if not superiors. I can understand if they are weaker, in which case, I'd agree with you. But his enemies were his superiors in everything but flight.


Yes, except this movie is suppose to show you a little of the dark side. It's more realistic. Seriously, just watch Superman Returns. Superman saves metropolis as it was being destroyed. He reverts some gas lines, catches the daily planet, and burns the glass/debris in one block. YUP, that is realistic. Only one block experienced glass breaking Keep in mind, he was able to do this because he had no enemy

I'm sure all of the citizens were cowering behind in the apartments. Not like you know, they ran, or got evacuated like what most people would probably do. Also, did you see anyone die there? I'm sure you didn't, but you assume they did. Can I assume that people died during the invasion of Chitauri?

I'm a fan. A big fan, and I know the character more than you can know. Yet, I don't see that being crazy. Sure, it works in comics, but in comics, there is a reason for it. The movie had other reasons. That's not what this argument is about
No, it's just that he was too reckless because you are looking at this movie as a comic book
Yes, we didn't see no one die. The Chitauri were soo idiotic to attack a planet who contain Hydrogen Bombs. I'm sorry that a race of beings who live god knows where, with god knows what kind of technology have no weapon that is considered in the category as WOMD. Never mind that Avengers had Superman beat in number of members and the type of enemy they had. After all, it's not like the enemy possessed weapons close to Kryptonians or Hulk for that matter; not like they had anything but some people on scooters. Not like they had weapons that can changed the planet's gravitational pull, or atmosphere

NO, Avengers is about strong gods, Heroes, and Hulk who fight Aliens sooo advanced that they didn't have any WOMD. It was about a group of heroes who COMMAND A POLICE OFFICER and direct him on HOW to evacuate people during an attack. Because, it's not like NYC didn't experience that before or still for that matter. Avengers is your comic book adaption, it follows guidelines much like comic books, which is why is why you like it more. I like movies more darker and realistic; those that show a things a bit more darker.

The Chitauri were akin to automated drones, once the Mothership was taken out, they were deactivated. Also, the Chitauri were under Loki's command to conquer humanity, not destroy it.

So you're criticizing the Avengers for being too unrealistic? That's a small price to pay for my heroes to be, well, heroic. The Avenger's had excellent action and was tons of fun without compromising anything.

I guess you just hold Superman to lower standards then I do. While a regular person or even another hero would be put in an impossible situation, I expect Superman to triumph. You seem to think I have a problem with body counts, I don't. People die, it's fine but I do have a serious problem with Superman not doing his very best to prevent deaths.

My problem is that Superman didn't even try to get Zod out of the city, it didn't even seem to cross his mind. I don't expect him to be perfect but I expect him to be Superman.

You don't have to be experienced to know that two Kryptonians fighting in a populated area will be dangerous. And while that might be an acceptable mistake for someone else, it isn't for Superman. That's why he is who he is, he holds himself to higher standards than anyone else.

Christ, everyone is so cynical nowadays and so obsessed with realism. I'm sorry that I went to a comic book movie based on Superman and expected to leave uplifted.

Originally posted by SquallX
For the people that's bitching about Superman not being in character, it seems that they've never read anything about the original Superman. Am talking Schuster and Siegel here.

There Superman, the original version was a no nonsense guy, he'll let a bad guy walk to there deaths or threaten and carries out said threats if they didn't confess.

I honestly don't know why people ***** about such mundane things. It's okay for other Superheroes to be reckless, but when it's Superman, people gets butt hurt with no real backing.



And Batman used guns back in the day as well.

Kinda feel both sides have made some good points.

Superman killing Zod doesn't bother me; he's killed before in comics and will probably kill again. But the scope of collateral damage was...high. That scene where Superman saves that soldier mid fall? That was great. I would have loved even one more scene of Superman saving random strangers mid fight with Zod in Metropolis. Or even a short scene of Superman using x-ray vision to punch Zod toward deserted buildings, explicitly fighting away from human beings.

All that said...I do like Synder's intent. He wants to show why Superman feels the way he does and wants to have him experience loss and even failure so that he'll do and be better. Like Pr said, a lot of us are used to the virtually infallible Superman in comics, and while I'd like to see that portrayed on the big screen, I do think him not getting a perfect "victory" does him credit. He lost a lot in that movie; his parents, his home world, his adopted father, and the last connection to his race by his own hand. And that does humanize him.

Problem with that is that a lot of fans of the character don't want him to be relatable and want instead for him to be the inspirational godlike entity who's the medium's greatest hero. I think New 52 Superman is a good blueprint for that happy balance, actually. He is heroic and is an inspiration to others, including heroes. But he's a very human and relatable person. Man of Steel's not quite there, but I think he will be given the sequel and follow up films.

And on a side note: phuck "realism" in comic book movies. Unless you're the Punisher, Batman, or another "street" character - and even then, realism is shot out of the window - if you're going to a superhero comic book film for something realistic, you're going to be disappointed.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Problem with that is that a lot of fans of the character don't want him to be relatable

I'm pretty sure this is false, at best people are hesitant of using cheap narrative to push humanity down the character's throat at the expense of what makes it unique. Lets remember than Superman Returns gave him a frigging son.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Kinda feel both sides have made some good points.As I mentioned in prior posts / other threads, I can see why some did not like this "non cheery" version of Supes.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
if you're going to a superhero comic book film for something realistic, you're going to be disappointed. Speaking for myself, I was not, and I found this portrayal to be as realistic as one could probably get for this subject matter. It doesn't approach Bale's Batman (for obvious reasons), but it is less comic-booky than Chris Reeve's spin.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Chitauri were akin to automated drones, once the Mothership was taken out, they were deactivated. Also, the Chitauri were under Loki's command to conquer humanity, not destroy it.

So you're criticizing the Avengers for being too unrealistic? That's a small price to pay for my heroes to be, well, heroic. The Avenger's had excellent action and was tons of fun without compromising anything.

I guess you just hold Superman to lower standards then I do. While a regular person or even another hero would be put in an impossible situation, I expect Superman to triumph. You seem to think I have a problem with body counts, I don't. People die, it's fine but I do have a serious problem with Superman not doing his very best to prevent deaths.

My problem is that Superman didn't even try to get Zod out of the city, it didn't even seem to cross his mind. I don't expect him to be perfect but I expect him to be Superman.

You don't have to be experienced to know that two Kryptonians fighting in a populated area will be dangerous. And while that might be an acceptable mistake for someone else, it isn't for Superman. That's why he is who he is, he holds himself to higher standards than anyone else.

Christ, everyone is so cynical nowadays and so obsessed with realism. I'm sorry that I went to a comic book movie based on Superman and expected to leave uplifted.

It isn't about realism or being gritty, it's about believability.

Superman starting out, even in the comics, wasn't this perfect "I save everyone, beat the villain and be home in time for corn flakes" kind of guy. that took years of training and experience to achieve.

You keep saying that he isn't Superman. You're right; he's not. because the Superman you're talking about is something that he becomes over time.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It isn't about realism or being gritty, it's about believability.

Superman starting out, even in the comics, wasn't this perfect "I save everyone, beat the villain and be home in time for corn flakes" kind of guy. that took years of training and experience to achieve.

You keep saying that he isn't Superman. You're right; he's not. because the Superman you're talking about is something that he becomes over time.

Why are you holding Superman to the same standards as a normal person? He's not allowed to make the same mistakes, he can't. Not with that kind of power. That's a big point of his character.

Did I not say that Superman isn't perfect? He never was, I'm not new to the character, I've read quite a bit about him which is why I'm saying what I did. I don't have a problem with it being extremely hard for him, I just don't like him.....not even trying. Like Jake said, an X-ray vision building sweeping scene would have been perfect.

Well, a lot of damage was done and many people were killed for him to reach that point. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it stains his image to me.

i don't get this "oh, he's not superman because superman won't even think of doing that!"

weren't people clamoring for a darker superman story? and when it come, it gets condemned.. make up your damn minds.. or get to the realization that this is superman now.. this is his evolution.. we demanded him to be like this and less of a boy scout.. now that he is less of a boy scout, we say that he should be boy-scoutier than any boy scout out there.. maybe he should've stopped fighting zod for a bit and helped an old lady cross the street so he could get a g*ddamn badge..

I loved the movie. The crazy collateral damage With the fights between kryptonians stood out to me but not in a real negative way.. It just made superman look like a rookie which he was. How can a rookie superman fight toe to toe with an equal and play damage control on a massive enough scale to matter? It makes sense to me and also seems like perfect fuel for someone like Lex to already have a serious negative opinion of him thats not just based off him being kryptonian.

Someone I know has a serious issue with the end of the movie.

despite the crazy damage and loss of life Clark snaps Zods neck just to save one family from death. Honestly even that makes sense if you think about it again from a rookie superman point of view. Zods a threat and he focused purely on putting him down and protecting himself from his attacks until the loss of life of those around him was blatantly pointed out to him with a direct attempt on their lives.. In which superman had to act.

I don't see how him 'suddenly caring' about a couple of ppl somehow makes the intense destruction make less sense.




This isn't a seasoned superman, I mean come on he learned to fly shortly before the actual invasion! He was totally learning on the go.

I don't think it was Superman suddenly caring for Humans. I just think it was a snap back to reality for him. Zod said he'd kill everyone, and even when faced with certain death, instead of trying to resist against Kal, he attempts to a family to break his spirit

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why are you holding Superman to the same standards as a normal person? He's not allowed to make the same mistakes, he can't. Not with that kind of power. That's a big point of his character.

Did I not say that Superman isn't perfect? He never was, I'm not new to the character, I've read quite a bit about him which is why I'm saying what I did. I don't have a problem with it being extremely hard for him, I just don't like him.....not even trying. Like Jake said, an X-ray vision building sweeping scene would have been perfect.

Well, a lot of damage was done and many people were killed for him to reach that point. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it stains his image to me.

I'm not; I'm just allowing for the fact that he hasn't always been perfect.

And it doesn't to me, but like I said, I don't expect many to agree with me. I never realised how I viewed Superman was so different to so many people, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't expect many to agree with me. I never realised how I viewed Superman was so different to so many people, though. I think it's because, on one hand, Supes represents what is best in humanity, that aspect which enables us to rise above selfishness, anger and violence, striving for compassion and doing what's right. Superman is, as Freud might say, the ego ideal.

OTOH, I personally found it fascinating to see a superhuman, godlike being depicted in as realistic / believable a fashion as the subject matter allows. Someone who doesn't know yet their place in the world, who doesn't have a full grasp of his abilities, someone who's going to make mistakes, rouse human suspicion, and given the scale of his power, someone who has to deal with the consequences of that power not always wisely used.

This is a Superman just starting out, and his experiences will help him become the Superman who inspires.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't really get all the hurt over the collateral damage.

End of the day it was for audience entertainment. And it was damn entertaining. I'm sure a fight in space would have cost them a lot less to make.

They showed Clark's humanity at various points in the movie, but it was also clear he was a rookie at this point. And his scream at the end shows the toll this experience had on him.

Also its clear what they meant now when they were saying there was going to be some realism in this. They were never talking about making his powers realistic, but the way those powers would be used and cause damage if they were to be real.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They were never talking about making his powers realistic, but the way those powers would be used and cause damage if they were to be real. I think also real this way; Perry White even says it: can you imagine how people would react if they knew someone like him was out there?

I remember actually discussing this back in grad school. My point was that if someone like Superman were real, the first thing the government would do is consider him a potential threat to national security and start looking for ways to control or neutralize him. Given how human beings are, this seems almost obvious, imo.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also its clear what they meant now when they were saying there was going to be some realism in this. They were never talking about making his powers realistic, but the way those powers would be used and cause damage if they were to be real. Pretty much. It's not realistic in terms of Superpowers, but more in line with reactions and destruction. Seriously, like look at Avengers. The chitauri had the cube, can create wormholes, navigate space, use all sort of technology so why is it that they had no weapon close to doing any damage to a city. I can understand if their priority was to conquer, but it wasn't. We clearly saw that they were destroying the city, yet they had no weapon that would lay waste to an entire city, or an entire block for that matter. If the nuke had been dropped in the city, all their forces on earth that were deployed would have been killed. Surely, they choose to attack a race which were technologically behind, but still able to do more damage I watched Avengers and questioned if the world was ever in danger. Sure, they couldn't shut the portal, but had it come to the point that Avengers were not there, a Hydrogen Bomb) would have won the battle. It would have been costly and damaging though

We saw in MoS a more realistic approach. No weapons were able to damage the Kryptonians, or the world eater. They pretty much shut the lights off on the entire planet just so they can send a message.

Never been a clearer "Beware the Superman" message in a movie imo. It is not random destruction, it is the horryfying but logical result of aliens with kryptonian powers, kryptonian tech and kryptonian motives duking it out on earth. At the end we still have one of said ailiens running around playing the hero.. and he has just shown he is willing to kill.

Originally posted by SevenShackles
I loved the movie. The crazy collateral damage With the fights between kryptonians stood out to me but not in a real negative way.. It just made superman look like a rookie which he was. How can a rookie superman fight toe to toe with an equal and play damage control on a massive enough scale to matter? It makes sense to me and also seems like perfect fuel for someone like Lex to already have a serious negative opinion of him thats not just based off him being kryptonian.

Someone I know has a serious issue with the end of the movie.

despite the crazy damage and loss of life Clark snaps Zods neck just to save one family from death. Honestly even that makes sense if you think about it again from a rookie superman point of view. Zods a threat and he focused purely on putting him down and protecting himself from his attacks until the loss of life of those around him was blatantly pointed out to him with a direct attempt on their lives.. In which superman had to act.

I don't see how him 'suddenly caring' about a couple of ppl somehow makes the intense destruction make less sense.




This isn't a seasoned superman, I mean come on he learned to fly shortly before the actual invasion! He was totally learning on the go.

Disagree, tbh. And before you ask me to be more specific, I mean all of it.

lol @people crying and whining at the death toll in the film.. best thing all of you to do is don't go and see the sequel

Originally posted by -Pr-
Disagree, tbh. And before you ask me to be more specific, I mean all of it.

YOU'RE WELCOME.

this f*cking complaints are getting old.. I seem to remember the avengers eating shawarma after the new york incident, amidst the rubble and the collateral damage.. and stop comparing MoS to the avengers, please.. just go watch the avengers and leave MoS alone.. haters gonna hate..

I actually like Man of Steel just fine. It's very enjoyable (most of it anyway) up until the climax.

But good lord is that last battle just awful. It's way too long, poorly filmed, overly CGIed, rather dull, and just plain duuuuuumb. It's so bad that it kind of brings the rest of the film down a notch or two with it.

Originally posted by super pr*xy
this f*cking complaints are getting old.. I seem to remember the avengers eating shawarma after the new york incident, amidst the rubble and the collateral damage.. and stop comparing MoS to the avengers, please.. just go watch the avengers and leave MoS alone.. haters gonna hate..

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why are you holding Superman to the same standards as a normal person? He's not allowed to make the same mistakes, he can't. Not with that kind of power. That's a big point of his character.

Did I not say that Superman isn't perfect? He never was, I'm not new to the character, I've read quite a bit about him which is why I'm saying what I did. I don't have a problem with it being extremely hard for him, I just don't like him.....not even trying. Like Jake said, an X-ray vision building sweeping scene would have been perfect.

Well, a lot of damage was done and many people were killed for him to reach that point. I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it stains his image to me.

Ive seen your posts, you're not even a superman fan, so why complain? also superman did punch zod into space, zod then kicked the wayne satellit towards supes, pushing him down to earth again. Last i checked superman can only be blamed for ramming through that nuclear reactor and to smallville, with zod, thats about it, no other damage in the movie can be blamed on him.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
lol @people crying and whining at the death toll in the film.. best thing all of you to do is don't go and see the sequel

This and all of this.

Cry babies.

My respect for Supes jumped after MoS.

He was a rookie... and rookies makes mistakes in tense, heated, life & death situations, and even rational thinking at times cause, anger clouds judgment:

"Hmmm, the complete destruction of the ONLY home world I know, by a experienced military crew and a seasoned general bent on restoring the lost glory of his world / people"

...Nah, that's no pressure for a young man raised on a simple farm.





Geez... Gimme(and Kal-EL) a break.


.....

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
lol @people crying and whining at the death toll in the film.. best thing all of you to do is don't go and see the sequel

It was also his first time on the job.

Yep and outnumbered by his superiors./