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Who wins?

MoM

Classic Beyonder

Beyonder.

Beyonder

Mommy wins.

MoM was somewhere around Eternity level. She created the universe and all the Skyfather esque Gods in the universe. Although not sure if it was alluded to her creating other universes. It's been a while.

She loses to Pre Retcon Beyonder and beats Post Retcon Beyonder.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
MoM was somewhere around Eternity level. She created the universe and all the Skyfather esque Gods in the universe. Although not sure if it was alluded to her creating other universes. It's been a while.

She loses to Pre Retcon Beyonder and beats Post Retcon Beyonder.

I'm pretty sure I read a writer's comments a while back that the Spawn-verse is a universe, not a multiverse. Could be wrong though.

Originally posted by Cogito
I'm pretty sure I read a writer's comments a while back that the Spawn-verse is a universe, not a multiverse. Could be wrong though. I was thinking Image as a whole.

Unless that's also contained within the Spawn Verse. Not quite sure.

I thought I seen some allusions about other universes when MoM was on panel. Like I said, it's been a while though. I haven't read a Spawn coming since like a couple issues after 4th Age.

Classic Beyonder solidly.

image is an omniverse, it was even shown on panel in shattered image #4:

http://i.imgur.com/DlzJWFd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TL8mjoW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/68WqBGb.jpg

not sure why the majority are picking the beyonder here. He has a bunch of low showings like for example future doom with one of galactus' devices stole his power, strange could have permanently sealed him in another dimension while the beyonder was drunk, puma could have killed him, he also doesn't have absolute control over time.

MoM is cool

Beyonder

a justification would be nice.

Originally posted by operator616
a justification would be nice. Originally posted by the Darkone
Beyonder

^^ ... even while limiting himself like during the SW saga.

i have seen these claims made before but that's not true.

he wasn't limiting himself the entire time, only when dealing with lesser beings.

other than that, he normally wouldn't, dazzler #40:

http://i.imgur.com/93OcQuc.jpg?1

"i gather you stopped limiting your powers"

Beyonder wins

Beyonder limited his powers through out the entire series.

That single moment with Dazzler doesn't substantiate your claim,
and no where in it is anyone stating Beyonder limited himself to lesser beings.
(that makes no sense since Everyone was a "lesser being" to Beyonder)
There is none here who can say to what degree Beyonder limited himself,
or when he was or was not limited. But with certainty concerning your "low-showings"
Beyonder was definitely limiting himself. Save for the Doom pis which Beyonder coerced.

That aside, we know he did limit himself ridiculously!

You already posted several pis/cis scenarios, like Beyonder getting drunk, lol,
(Strange saw/knew Beyonder had limited himself)
or Puma being able to kill him, heck, even the Thing almost killed Beyonder,
far more expressly than Puma's bull crap.
And several other stupidities in the name of trying to make a prolonged story where
"God" interacts with microbes like the Living Tribunal and Spiderman.

Of course all of this laughable, and it's good to know it's cause Beyonder allowed it.

You gotta let go of the Puma thingy though,
it's as if you believe Puma (multiverse empowered) could defeat Beyonder, which is a no.
Beyonder was going to allow Puma to destroy his body.
When Beyonder doesn't want to be hurt, the Most powerful being in all Creation,
blasts him with enough power to "destroy several Billion entire universeS"



... and it makes Beyonder cough ... once.

Beyonder also easily shattered Owen's protective Dome.
Beyonder defeated Owen in less than two pages.

Puma (empowered) = entire Universe - Multiverse (at best, save for Owen)

Remember, Owen gaining his powers from Beyonder himself put him apart.

Owen's Dome >> entire Multiverse ... Owen >>> entire Multiverse

.........................................................................................

so basically, you're going to disregard the evidence i posted, right?

when i say "lesser beings" i mean everyone apart from abstract level beings.

the thing and puma are 2 completely different scenarios. In thing #30 the beyonder wanted to be beaten physically because he thought he was guilty for screwing up thing's life.

While in puma's case, the beyonder specifically wanted puma to attain enough power - by becoming one with the mutliverse - to kill him, i already explained this instance in the other thread. And for the record, i never stated that puma could beat the beyonder, im only saying that he had the capability to kill him.

nowhere was it mentioned that the beyonder coerced doom to steal his own power

molecule man stated later that he wasn't exerting himself in his battle with the beyonder. Though yeah, i get your point, molecule man even admitted that the beyonder transacts on power levels unimaginable to him. But you're saying this as if everything is consistent/makes sense. Must i remind you that in secret wars 2 #6, the beyonder (while depowered) didn't have enough power to resurrect death (without Dave's help) despite the fact that he was still more powerful than all the cosmic beings combined? Molecule man couldn't even kill a rose, and he was significantly more powerful than everyone combined (which included Death), as well.

Operator has become the new GalacticStorm. Without all of that Phoenix obsession.

^^ ... especially how much weight is put on empty statements.

Originally posted by operator616

so basically, you're going to disregard the evidence i posted, right?
... You're just throwing scans around,
and making claims based on hyperbole and unsupported statements.
Originally posted by operator616

when i say "lesser beings" i mean everyone apart from abstract level beings.
Well, "abstract level beings" were like "microbes" to Beyonder:

(this monolgue also explains away anything negative that happened to Beyonder,
since well you know, he's in control of every occurrence)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16519200_Beyonder_Microbes.jpg

Wonder how far down ladder that places your "lesser beings" if the LT is a microbe.
Originally posted by operator616

the thing and puma are 2 completely different scenarios. In thing #30 the
beyonder wanted to be beaten physically because he thought he was guilty for
screwing up thing's life.
While in puma's case, the beyonder specifically wanted puma to attain enough
power - by becoming one with the mutliverse - to kill him, i already explained this
instance in the other thread. And for the record, i never stated that puma could beat
the beyonder, im only saying that he had the capability to kill him.
Same exact comedy. That is, Beyonder allowing himself to be stomped or otherwise.

Puma couldn't do shit to Beyonder unless Beyonder willed it.
Puma (at best)
had the power of the Multiverse, which is < Owen Reece
Originally posted by operator616

nowhere was it mentioned that the beyonder coerced doom to steal his own power
Interesting, when it was Beyonder who literally re-created/re-ordered History/Time,
so that 616 Doom could accomplish his feat.
Since before that, the feat was achieved by a future Doom who Never existed.
Originally posted by operator616

molecule man stated later that he wasn't exerting himself in his battle with the beyonder.
"wasn't exerting himself?" ... I disagree.

Owen didn't use all his power against Beyonder, this is true,
but he used enough power, and took enough damage, to end up Comatose:





He was so weak after he woke,
that he was struggling to hold together the broken planet Earth:



And he couldn't even fix it ...
Owen needed to merge powers with Surfer to fix a single planet.

This is the same Owen who fixed Multiversal wide destruction with his finger
while calming down the Beyonder with a pep talk.
Originally posted by operator616

But you're saying this as if everything is consistent/makes
sense. Must i remind you that in secret wars 2 #6, the beyonder
(while depowered) didn't have enough power to resurrect death
(without Dave's help) despite the fact that he was still more
powerful than all the cosmic beings combined? Molecule man
couldn't even kill a rose, and he was significantly more powerful
than everyone combined (which included Death), as well.
You're not reminding me of anything friend.

Beyonder didn't need Dave's help (come on, even yur laughing)
And Owen couldn't kill a rose, because the Concept of Death was erased.
Dave became Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder gave him the choice to become Death.

But regardless, something had to be Killed in order for the Concept of Death to rise again,
and that was impossible (ergo even Owen not able to kill flower)
but ONLY Beyonder had the power to kill something, (Dave)
when the act was supposed to be impossible.

Unless you're under the impression that had Beyonder tried to kill Dave without
Dave's consent he couldn't. Which is laughable, no offense.

It feels good to be here. I have been following your work for a long time mrmaster and you are a legend on a site I am a member of called comicvine. We have had many impostors on our site copying your posts in this site and using it as their argument on our site. There is even a mrmaster in our site with your same logo but I am not sure if that is you but the way he debates is the same so I reply as if it is. We say this comic book forum is the best on the net with some of the most knowledgeable debaters and I think I am ready to talk comics with the big boys lol.

Killemall

Welcome aboard I say and have fun.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ ... especially how much weight is put on empty statements.


1. You're just throwing scans around,
and making claims based on hyperbole and unsupported statements.

2. Well, "abstract level beings" were like "microbes" to Beyonder:

(this monolgue also explains away anything negative that happened to Beyonder,
since well you know, he's in control of every occurrence)


Wonder how far down ladder that places your "lesser beings" if the LT is a microbe.

3. Same exact comedy. That is, Beyonder allowing himself to be stomped or otherwise.

Puma couldn't do shit to Beyonder unless Beyonder willed it.
Puma (at best)
had the power of the Multiverse, which is < Owen Reece

4. Interesting, when it was Beyonder who literally re-created/re-ordered History/Time,
so that 616 Doom could accomplish his feat.
Since before that, the feat was achieved by a future Doom who Never existed.

5. "wasn't exerting himself?" ... I disagree.

Owen didn't use all his power against Beyonder, this is true,
but he used enough power, and took enough damage, to end up Comatose:

He was so weak after he woke,
that he was struggling to hold together the broken planet Earth:

And he couldn't even fix it ...
Owen needed to merge powers with Surfer to fix a single planet.

This is the same Owen who fixed Multiversal wide destruction with his finger
while calming down the Beyonder with a pep talk.

6. You're not reminding me of anything friend.

Beyonder didn't need Dave's help (come on, even yur laughing)
And Owen couldn't kill a rose, because the Concept of Death was erased.
Dave became Beyonder's friend, so Beyonder gave him the choice to become Death.

But regardless, something had to be Killed in order for the Concept of Death to rise again,
and that was impossible (ergo even Owen not able to kill flower)
but ONLY Beyonder had the power to kill something, (Dave)
when the act was supposed to be impossible.

Unless you're under the impression that had Beyonder tried to kill Dave without
Dave's consent he couldn't. Which is laughable, no offense.

1. yeah, ive heard that before, whenever i come up with evidence that contradicts your argument, "throwing around scans" is what i get in return. Can't say that im surprised.

2. Alright. Though i disagree that it takes away his low showings.

3. that's not true, the beyonder "let" as in he wouldn't defend himself (that, i agree with), but the facts are:

Beyonder stated that puma can kill him (SS #111)

http://i.imgur.com/qfBfFuh.jpg?1

and Puma's bio refers to it as an actual fact as opposed to it being a mere claim:

http://i.imgur.com/l9rQ0Xc.jpg?1

unless of course, you can explain why would the beyonder need puma to reach multiversal levels to get himself killed? why not just........commit suicide??

4. and you do realize that the reason beyonder transferred doom's mind into his original body was to prevent his own destruction, right? because the beyonder was actually going to kill doom but if he did that, there would be a time paradox which will result in the destruction of time, killing him in the process (fantastic four #288):

http://i.imgur.com/VcpavFD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/g9yDbhK.jpg

since none of the handbooks have an emphasis on this instance, ill link you to the official marvunapp website to confirm this (read the ff 288 section)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mcarthurnorm.htm

so the only reason the beyonder transferred doom's mind into his body was to save his own ass.

5. you are missing important context. After he battled the beyonder, Owen managed to remove every living being from beyonder's death-blast (which reached to the ends of infinity), only after this incident, was the molecule man left weakened to the point that he couldn't repair the earth alone (secret wars 2 #9)

http://i.imgur.com/fl2sDws.jpg?1


http://i.imgur.com/H3f0X2H.jpg?1

and don't forget he also projected beyonder's energies into his beyond realm.

so that's 2 important things you're missing.

6. im not laughing at all, and neither should you, because that's exactly what happened on panel, and it's made pretty clear that the only way the beyonder can resurrect death, is with Dave's help (secret wars 2 #6)

http://i.imgur.com/WBu4biE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AfaxUJo.jpg

notice the beyonder specifically says that dave should become death so that this might work.


the 2006 official handbook confirms that Dave became the new Death when the beyonder killed him (this feat was never retconned (neither did any others except the celestials fight), it was also referenced in other post-FF #319 handbooks as well)

http://i.imgur.com/Ck6WEIv.jpg?1

as the issue and the handbook shows: Dave became the new Death. So the beyonder definitely couldn't accomplish the feat without him. You cannot dispute that.



btw, just so that you won't get the wrong idea, i didn't mention those low showings because i hate the character or anything like that, in fact he's an interesting character imo, and i have read every appearance he has ever made (post SW included). But you've got to realize that in this type of battle (between 2 supreme beings), low showings/limitations are the determining factor. this was the reason i mentioned them (MoM doesn't have that kind of low showings/limitations)

And i have no idea what does being "the new GalacticStorm" suppose to mean, but im pretty sure it's not a compliment, not that i care, though.

Originally posted by operator616

1. yeah, ive heard that before, whenever i come up with evidence that
contradicts your argument, "throwing around scans" is what i get in return. Can't say
that im surprised.
... "evidence" you believe contradicts anything. My bad,
these Beyonder debates may be new and exciting for ya, but
they're old and done to nauseam for me.
I only entertain discussions nowadays for informational purposes,
not to try and prove facts I've already proven many years ago. So,
I can get a bit frustrated with circles.
Originally posted by operator616

2. Alright. Though i disagree that it takes away his low showings.
Beyonder has no "low showings" unless he wanted them.
That was the idea portrayed imo.
Originally posted by operator616

3. that's not true, the beyonder "let" as in he wouldn't defend himself (that, i agree with), but the facts are:
Beyonder stated that puma can kill him (SS #111)
and Puma's bio refers to it as an actual fact as opposed to it being a mere claim:
unless of course, you can explain why would the beyonder need puma to reach
multiversal levels to get himself killed? why not just........commit suicide??
See what I mean? You put your heart & soul into one statement,
but then completely disregard other statements by the SAME character.

"Beyonder stated this, and Beyonder stated that" ... "Beyonder stated Puma can kill him"

Yea,
so long as Beyonder purposely limits himself, makes himself vulnerable enough to kill:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16528446_Beyonder_Infinite.jpg

"No force in existence could possibly destroy me without my consent"

Stop deliberately picking statements that fit your preconceived notions my friend.

You want On Panel facts? ... No one ever killed Beyonder, ever!, and even
when his body was obliterated by Owen his Essence/Power was still functional
as it allowed Owen to re-direct it into the Beyond where Beyonder became the
Beyond Realm again but with life in it, the kind of life he found meaning in while in Eternity.

Those are the on panel facts!

In the Puma story, could Puma have destroyed Beyonder's body
"kill him" like Owen did? Sure, that's what the writer intended us to
understand, with Beyonder's allowance/participation of course. But
would this had killed Beyonder in the mortal sense? Of course not
and the very idea is ridiculous.
And On Panel Beyonder was destroyed and we saw what happened.
So, No. Beyonder had to play along with this nonsense because he
believed it was the way to for-fill his own destiny which was to
become whole again, and by doing this set an example like a teacher would.

We don't debate on KMC based on "statements/hyperbole" anyway,
we debate based on Feats ...
and "statements" have to at-least be backed by plausibility based on indirect/other feats
that tell us Yes, that is possible because such and such happened in this/that other story.

That's how it works friend.
Originally posted by operator616

4. and you do realize that the reason beyonder transferred doom's mind into his
original body was to prevent his own destruction, right? because the beyonder was
actually going to kill doom but if he did that, there would be a time paradox which
will result in the destruction of time, killing him in the process (fantastic four #288):
http://i.imgur.com/VcpavFD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/g9yDbhK.jpg
since none of the handbooks have an emphasis on this instance, ill
link you to the official marvunapp website to confirm this (read the ff 288 section)
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mcarthurnorm.htm
so the only reason the beyonder transferred doom's mind into his
body was to save his own ass.
And you do realize not only is the thought that Beyonder would die because Eternity dies is
especially since Beyonder was gonna erase space/time and everything in-between,
especially since Beyonder re-created/manipulated "Time" on several occasions,
especially since Beyonder and even Owen proved able to exist Outside of "Space/
Time" on separate occasions, here's one:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16528615_Beyonder_Outside.jpg

Anyway, comedy aside, good thing none of those FF scans state anything conclusively:

On Panel: ... "Perhaps" ... "May be" ...
Marvunapp: ... "Paradox which might destroy even" ...

Unprovable statements coupled with its contradiction to actual on panel events =

-------------------------------------------------------------

I'll fill you in on more details your missing in another post concerning what I said before,
regarding the non-existent future Doom that achieved what 616 Doom was forced
to repeat by Beyonder.

616 Doom was Not/Never in the original Secret Wars,
since 616 Doom's mind/spirit was actually in McArthur's body since 1983
when Terrax obliterated Doom's body.

In fact, 616 Doom never met or even had seen the Beyonder until FF#288 (1986)
which was towards the End of Secret Wars II. (SW I = 1984)

More on that in a bit.

Originally posted by operator616

5. you are missing important context. After he battled the beyonder, Owen
managed to remove every living being from beyonder's death-blast (which reached
to the ends of infinity), only after this incident, was the molecule man left weakened
to the point that he couldn't repair the earth alone (secret wars 2 #9)
http://i.imgur.com/fl2sDws.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/H3f0X2H.jpg?1
and don't forget he also projected beyonder's energies into his beyond realm.
so that's 2 important things you're missing.
lol at you telling me I'm missing "context" when you're basically warping it.

The only thing that hurt Owen badly was:

1) battling the Beyonder
2) shielding himself and the rest from Beyonder's blast

Owen was exhausted after battling Beyonder for only two pages:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16528704_Owen_exausted.jpg


Owen was badly hurt after battling the Beyonder & shielding himself & friends:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16528705_Owen_exhausted2.jpg

Putting people in stasis was the least of his endeavor.


Owen literally equated his Stomped comatose state due to his confrontation with Beyonder:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16528706_Owen_Coma2.jpg


Context huh.

Also, you're really fooling yourself if you believe Owen stopped
Beyonder's power from destroying the Multiverse and then he
shunted it into the Beyond Realm.
I hope you do realize that Owen only shunted (directed) the
energies to the Beyond.
Heck, there's no way Owen would've been able to stop Beyonder's
full power especially in the condition he was in by then.
Beyonder did repeat several times he didn't want to destroy the
Multiverse anymore in that issue,
and since his power is his Sentience, it's safe to say the sentience allowed this.

Regardless my point still stands, Owen got wrecked and it all leads to Beyonder.
Originally posted by operator616

6. im not laughing at all, and neither should you, because that's exactly what
happened on panel, and it's made pretty clear that the only way the beyonder can
resurrect death, is with Dave's help (secret wars 2 #6)
http://i.imgur.com/WBu4biE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AfaxUJo.jpg
notice the beyonder specifically says that dave should become death so that this might work.
the 2006 official handbook confirms that Dave became the new Death when the
beyonder killed him (this feat was never retconned (neither did any others except
the celestials fight), it was also referenced in other post-FF #319 handbooks as well)
http://i.imgur.com/Ck6WEIv.jpg?1
as the issue and the handbook shows: Dave became the new Death.

So the beyonder definitely couldn't accomplish the feat without him. You cannot dispute that.
Well I was only laughing then, but now that you actually tried to prove with scans no less
that Beyonder couldn't accomplish the feat without Dave ... I'm on the floor, rolling.

Quite simple really.

The Concept of Death is gone, erased, and so nothing can die.

Even the most powerful being aside from Beyonder can't kill a flower:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16528800_Beyonder_makes_Death1.jpg


Beyonder's friend Dave freaks out and realizes this is crazy,
and tells Beyonder to bring back Death,
but Beyonder clearly states:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16528801_Beyonder_makes_Death2.jpg

"I can't. The ONLY way to do that, well, it would mean KILLING something, and that's beyond me"

Beyond Beyonder's power to kill something? That makes no sense and Dave clears it up for us:

"I can't believe that, you still have more power than the mighty combined"

(oh, so it is about Power)

*** Here's your mistake friend, Beyonder then speaking figuratively tells Dave:

"If some sentient creature were willing to ... " ... Dave: "Willing to die?"

Beyonder: "Worse, to become Death, in a manner of speaking ...
for from the seed of the First Death, its spectre would rise again"

You took this literally, and that's where you confused yourself.

"in a manner of speaking" (that's the key phrase you overlooked)

The reason Beyonder tells Dave he will become Death, is because he's gonna DIE!
and since he will be the First sentience to Die, said sentience becomes the concept of Death.

But,
he still has to be Killed first, something that is impossible ... but not for Beyonder evidently.


Context huh.
Originally posted by operator616

btw, just so that you won't get the wrong idea, i didn't mention those low
showings because i hate the character or anything like that, in fact he's an
interesting character imo, and i have read every appearance he has ever made
(post SW included). But you've got to realize that in this type of battle (between 2
supreme beings), low showings/limitations are the determining factor.
Here we can agree. btw though, I'm sure the thread starter meant Beyonder at full power,
and not the self imposed limited or plot hindered Beyonder
necessary to make a 50 plus issue arc involving an omnipotent
character in the presence of infinitely lesser beings.

I'm sure MoM is a rare sight to see in engagement.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Operator has become the new GalacticStorm. Without all of that Phoenix obsession. Imo he seems to have a lot more overall knowledge of comics then GS, and at least cites the particular comics his scans come from, which I can appreciate. We've certainly had our disagreements in the past, though.

Anyway, Beyonder wins.

damn you change your sig and avy a lot. how are people supposed to rush to some half-assed and utterly incrroect conclusion about what you're like in real life by looking at your avy if you keep changing it all the time??

I had an e-identity crisis.