Who can stop Dark Side Mortis Anakin?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
No. Sidious is canonically > Vitiate by almost literally dozens of sources.
Read this:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
To be honest, debates about "most powerful characters" are typically useless. Several characters have received such promotion officially thus far and all of them have dedicated fans. It is unlikely to reach a consensus in this kind of conflicting scenario. Funny possibility is that an official consensus does not exists in this regard either.

Do not expect me to respond to this type of argument (ever). Focus on the capabilities of the characters in question instead.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't know what is it with you and meaningless, almost pathetic adjectives; of course sith sorcery is "supernatural". The Force itself is "supernatural". How does this mean anything? confused

The Force is a special form of energy field which have both metaphysical and supernatural aspects.

Sith Sorcery is a field of dark side practices which unlocks the supernatural facet of The Force. Their is no Jedi alternative for this.

Understand?

Originally posted by Master Han
And you're assuming that Yoda and Sidious would not be familiar with sith sorcery; in reality, the former studied sith holocrons and developed defenses against dark side techniques, and the latter is himself a master of sith sorcery (he clouds the entire Jedi Order's Force connection and, with Plagueis, knocks the Force itself out of balance).
Jedi have managed to develop different kinds of countermeasures against a variety of dark side abilities but this is a never-ending race and acquiring extreme proficiency in defensive aspects of the Force is not an easy task. Even the strongest Jedi are pushed to their limits by "commonly known" Sith applications (The "not so commonly" known ones have set the bar a lot higher). Both the Jedi and Sith have history of exploring ways to undermine each other and both have developed applications which can bypass well-known countermeasures. However, the Sith went a step further by exploring supernatural ways to undermine Jedi powers. Sith Sorcery based talents are typically of such a nature that they are impossible to counter through conventional methods.

More importantly, in history, precious information about The Force related talents, secrets and discoveries have been lost on several occasions during different events and a chunk of knowledge have not been recorded ever.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read this:

I don't care if you find canon evidence to be inconvenient. Canon evidence is canon evidence, and cannot be dismissed by fan-made policies or arbitrary declarations.

Metaphysical = supernatural...

Source needed.

Yoda has access to perhaps the largest collection of Force information ever assembled in galactic history, and has, according to a citation I admit-tingly cannot find, developed a defense for every dark side technique. You could argue that his knowledge of the Force exceeds the Sith Emperor's.

And I don't know why your pointing out that sith sorcery is difficult to defend against somehow precludes Yoda's being able to defend against it...

And you ignored the point that Palpatine is himself a master of sith sorcery. Sorcery, mind you, is hardly an insta-win card; Zannah barely managed to defeat an aging Bane, despite being able to draw on DS energies that explicitly make her sorcery possible/more powerful. And pointing out that Vitiate is far more powerful than Zannah...really would demonstrate a lack of understanding of my point.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't care if you find canon evidence to be inconvenient. Canon evidence is canon evidence, and cannot be dismissed by fan-made policies or arbitrary declarations.
Well;

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

Apart from the hype factor, Vitiate is apparently noticeably more powerful and capable then Sidious (G-canon) on the basis of his capabilities, feats and affirmed superiority over a huge LIST which includes some individuals with mind-boggling capabilities of their own.

Originally posted by Master Han
Metaphysical = supernatural...
My bad! The Force have both metaphysical and physical dimensions.

Originally posted by Master Han
Source needed.
You need a source to figure out what Sith Sorcery is all about? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Master Han
Yoda has access to perhaps the largest collection of Force information ever assembled in galactic history, and has, according to a citation I admit-tingly cannot find, developed a defense for every dark side technique. You could argue that his knowledge of the Force exceeds the Sith Emperor's.
He got access to (destroyed) records somehow or records that have never been recovered? He may have access to largest collection of information but that information might still be inadequate in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Sith Emperor's talents are a mystery to even Sith (Forget the Jedi).

Originally posted by Master Han
And I don't know why your pointing out that sith sorcery is difficult to defend against somehow precludes Yoda's being able to defend against it...
I am not doubting Yoda's proficiency in defensive applications but do you have an example which affirms that he have an answer to Sith Sorcery based talents and which ones in particular?

Do not make assumptions which you may find impossible to support.

Originally posted by Master Han
And you ignored the point that Palpatine is himself a master of sith sorcery. Sorcery, mind you, is hardly an insta-win card; Zannah barely managed to defeat an aging Bane, despite being able to draw on DS energies that explicitly make her sorcery possible/more powerful. And pointing out that Vitiate is far more powerful than Zannah...really would demonstrate a lack of understanding of my point.
Sith Sorcey can be an insta-win card as apparent from examples of Vitiate being able to purge entire Councils in a single attack with his mysterious abilities; the proficiency of a Force-user in the field of Sith Sorcery makes difference. Sidious was learning about Sith Sorcery with passage of time but he wasn't comparable to Vitiate in this field until his DE incarnation.

In addition, I don't need to compare Vitiate with Zannah in this aspect to prove his superiority over her in this field. Zannah turned the tide of her duel with Bane in her favor with her Sith Sorcery based talents; without such talents, she would have lost. However, Vitiate may have one-shotted Bane to oblivion; he was this much proficient. Vitiate is, by far, the greatest known practitioner of Sith Sorcery in the mythos.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well;

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

I've skimmed over said encyclopedia. It's clearly written in the restricted perspective of the time period and makes no reference to events beyond TOR (to my knowledge). It's also obviously contextual, since Abeloth and countless other entities are undoubtedly above him.

So, the Sith Emperor is the most powerful (within the relative timeframe of that era's galactic happenings) Force user up to his time...Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord at least up to his own time. And some of said latter assertions include information beyond the OT era.

I'm just going to ignore your arbitrary restriction of my range of evidence to G-canon, ironic enough given that Vitiate doesn't even exist under that level. Beyond Palpatine's vastly superior bladework and tactical acumen, he has demonstrated the ability to cloud the minds of the entire Jedi Order (actually in G canon), remove the memories of an event from the entire galaxy, knock the Force itself out of balance with his mere presence, and drain energies from entire planetary populations.

Um, what? The Force manifests itself in its ability to manipulate physical events, such as telekinesis and foresight, but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree.

For example, Plagueis in his novel realizes that, contrary to previous belief, one does not need a natural affinity with sith magic beyond Force sensitivity to master it; he himself manages to learn it through sheer force of will, despite having no inborn ability in that area.

Why do you assume Vitiate has access to more in the "grand scheme of things"?

Records had been lost since Vitiate's time; but new records have doubtlessly been created since, and in a technological, space age society, the rate of the latter would certainly outstrip the latter's. And whereas Vitiate largely had knowledge only from whatever survived from the older sith empire, Yoda had the entire, mostly unbroken line of the Jedi Order, and data from various sith empires, including from sith orders after Vitiate's time.

Evidence...?

OK, please state specifically which techniques Vitiate would employ against Yoda.

With prep time, and off-screen. We have no idea how he did it, or whether he could replicate it in a fair fight.

No, Palpatine by RotS has already upset the balance of the Force and clouded the entire Jedi Order.

And if Vitiate really has insta-win Force techniques he can use on the fly, explain why he uses none against Revan's strike team.

ares834

Also the SWTORE is written in universe.

Nephthys

Arguably. Despite being 'written in-universe', it uses the BBY system, which obviously wouldn't come into practice until the Battle of Yavin.

The_Tempest

The language surrounding Vitiate's proclamation doesn't preclude Sidious surpassing him anymore than my admission that "I haven't ever been to England" doesn't preclude me traveling there in the future.

The Merchant

Celestials, maybe. Depends if you think the Celestials>>The Ones.

The_Tempest

"The Ones" are, apparently, what Celestials become according to Thuruht (Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse).

The Merchant

Huh, interesting. The Father then.

ares834

Yeah, I think Leland Chee actually confirmed the Father as the most powerful force user.

The_Tempest

Perhaps in his prime, but Anakin's potential surpassed The Father (according to the official website, Anakin has the potential to be the strongest Force user in all of galactic history). This makes sense, given that The Father sought out Anakin as his intended replacement.

He did. But then this dark side Mortis Anakin Skywalker doesn't exist in canon.

Master Han

Wait...if the Father > anyone (including Abeloth), and Abeloth = 12x Luke, and (EDIT: full potential) Anakin = 2x Palpatine, and Anakin > The Father (EDIT: and Anakin >= Luke)...

Palpatine >= 6x Luke? confused

The_Tempest

Originally posted by Master Han
Wait...if the Father > anyone (including Abeloth), and Abeloth = 12x Luke, and Anakin = 2x Palpatine, and Anakin > The Father...

Palpatine >= 6x Luke? confused

You're seeking consistency in a franchise depleted of it. I try not to cling to exact percentages for just that reason and I'd rather pretend Abeloth's 12x Force strength quote never even existed.

But we know The Father > everyone (Leland Chee) and Anakin had the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever, which means at full potential, he'd surpass The Father, which makes sense given that he may have the power at such a time to flat-out crush Yoda and Sidious together.

Anakin > The Father > The Son/Daughter > > Palpatine > Vader, Dooku > Maul >>>> Bane

pencilcrayon

Could it be that she grew stronger anytime after the Father/Son/Daughter died?

The_Tempest

It very well could, but Leland Chee's recent declaration precludes Abeloth from surpassing The Father.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
I've skimmed over said encyclopedia. It's clearly written in the restricted perspective of the time period and makes no reference to events beyond TOR (to my knowledge). It's also obviously contextual, since Abeloth and countless other entities are undoubtedly above him.
SWTORE represents The Old Republic timeline of the history but the authors know that Abeloth and The Ones are also ancient beings and they still promoted Vitiate in the aforementioned fashion.

Originally posted by Master Han
So, the Sith Emperor is the most powerful (within the relative timeframe of that era's galactic happenings) Force user up to his time...Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord at least up to his own time. And some of said latter assertions include information beyond the OT era.
This;

Originally posted by Master Han
Canon evidence is canon evidence, and cannot be dismissed by fan-made policies or arbitrary declarations.

I can point out loopholes in sources which declare Sidious as most powerful. It would be wise of you to let go of this kind of reasoning to favor Sidious.

REPEAT: Apart from the hype factor, Vitiate is apparently noticeably more powerful and capable then Sidious (G-canon) on the basis of his capabilities, feats and affirmed superiority over a huge LIST which includes some individuals with mind-boggling capabilities of their own.

---

The best you have is to argue in favor of Sidious (DE) to be a match for Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm just going to ignore your arbitrary restriction of my range of evidence to G-canon, ironic enough given that Vitiate doesn't even exist under that level.
See above! I am not interested in participating in the debate about "strongest declarations" in the first place. It does not yields positive results.

Originally posted by Master Han
Beyond Palpatine's vastly superior bladework and tactical acumen,
he has demonstrated the ability to cloud the minds of the entire Jedi Order (actually in G canon),
Read this:

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial Space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear that the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)

Also, ever heard about Children of the Emperor?

Fooling the entire Jedi Order was no big deal for Vitiate. In fact, First Son also possessed this capability.

Learn more from this sources:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/children-of-the-emperor-consular/275/

http://swtor.gamepedia.com/Codex/The_First_Son

Originally posted by Master Han
remove the memories of an event from the entire galaxy,
He did that to a segment of populace of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Master Han
knock the Force itself out of balance with his mere presence,
Wrong!

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

Originally posted by Master Han
and drain energies from entire planetary populations.
This feat is exclusive to DE incarnation of Sidious only, if I recall correctly.

However, Vitiate have set the bar too high in this case. He siphoned energies from beings from 3 distant planets simultaneously.

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, what? The Force manifests itself in its ability to manipulate physical events, such as telekinesis and foresight, but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree.

For example, Plagueis in his novel realizes that, contrary to previous belief, one does not need a natural affinity with sith magic beyond Force sensitivity to master it; he himself manages to learn it through sheer force of will, despite having no inborn ability in that area.
The Force is a mysterious energy field which have both physical and metaphysical dimensions.

The physical dimension:

The Force is directly linked with all life-forms through tiny organisms called Midichlorians which exist in all life-forms symbiotically since birth. With high Midichlorian count, a life-form is capable of sensing and using The Force in natural ways. This eventually led to birth of Jedi philosophy.

Metaphysical dimension:

The Force is packed with lot of mysteries and untapped potential. The Jedi always have been restrictive in their access to mysteries of The Force because they follow its will and act within predefined boundaries of their philosophies. The dark side practitioners (including the Sith), in contrast, learned about unnatural aspects of The Force. They began to tap into these unnatural aspects through the field of Sith Sorcery. Their is no Jedi alternative to this field as far as I am aware.

---

While the Jedi have managed to blur the lines between natural and unnatural dimensions of The Force with some talents they acquired or possibly learned from exposure to knowledge of dark side practitioners, they are still considerably behind the dark side practitioners (including the Sith) in these aspects. By tapping into the uncharted depths of the unnatural aspects of The Force, the dark side practitioners have been able to unlock powers that were beyond the scope of understanding of the Jedi. Such powers have been seldom documented and explained by their wielders.

This development was not uncommon among Sith:

If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

This novel actually clarifies that some individuals have been born with innate affinity with the dark side of the Force. These individuals are responsible for inventing the field of Sith Sorcery; with sheer force of their will, these individuals may have discovered ways to influence and use The Force in manner which is not possible in natural ways. Plagueis eventually realized that he was also blessed with this kind of talent and that it was not necessary for him to acquire this capability from ancient teachings.

Sith Sorcery held great promise for dark side practitioners and therefore it became a popular subject to delve in to. Within Sith training systems, Sith Sorcery is a specialized branch of the dark arts under Sith Inquisitor curriculum. It is possible that Sith Sorcerers are responsible for creating the popular applications of Sith lightning and Life-energy siphoning abilities. However, Sith Sorcery is a vast field with no specific limitations; it is a pathway to unlock powers of such a nature against which no form of conventional countermeasure works.

Also, this assertion: "but this hardly puts sorcery as something intrinsically separate from regular Force abilities to any combatively meaningful degree." is utterly wrong.

Vitiate and Zannah are known to unleash powers of such nature against which conventional countermeasures do not work.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you assume Vitiate has access to more in the "grand scheme of things"?
Read this:

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)

But Vitiate didn't share much of his knowledge with others; he only tutored one apprentice in his span of existence but she became distraught with her master's plans and rebelled, but was assassinated. In-fact, in a source (The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural), this famed Jedi historian acknowledged that Vitiate is the most mysterious individual among the dark side practitioners and little is known about his capabilities even to the Sith due to his highly secretive nature.

Some insight:-

A DISTANT EMPEROR

The Sith Empire's dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power. and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. He ruled from the privacy of his chambers in the Citadel, his life extended to virtual immortality by Sith Sorcery.

For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence. Though the Emperor's enigmatic secrecy only increased his influence over his subjects, a few would attempt defiance. And as the Emperor's periods of absence increased, so too did the boldness of his Dark Council. (SWTORE, Page 157)

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
Records had been lost since Vitiate's time; but new records have doubtlessly been created since, and in a technological, space age society, the rate of the latter would certainly outstrip the latter's. And whereas Vitiate largely had knowledge only from whatever survived from the older sith empire, Yoda had the entire, mostly unbroken line of the Jedi Order, and data from various sith empires, including from sith orders after Vitiate's time.
Actually the records have been lost in history in utterly disturbing ways and this have happened several times. One such example is:

The Sith attack on Coruscant and obliteration of the centuries-old Jedi Temple wiped out millennia of acquired knowledge. (SWTORE, Page 89)

Their are other notable examples.

---

The history of Sith records is even more disturbing; an enormous treasure-trove of ancient Sith records was lost during the destruction of Malachor V. Similarly, the secretive nature of Vitiate and eventual destruction of his reconstituted Sith Empire didn't help the situation either and by the time of rise of Brotherhood of Darkness, Sith records had greatly diminished even in Korriban. The chance discovery of Revan's holocron led to recovery of some (vital) lost information but Gravid dashed its survival:

Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth
Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. (Star Wars: Darth Plagueis)

Sidious made some effort in recovering some lost information by exploring the galaxy but records accumulated by him are incomplete as well. In-fact, so much of the vital information about dark side practices have been lost in history that Krayt also experienced immense difficulties in re-acquiring some of the lost information but he couldn't uncover much either.

Originally posted by Master Han
Evidence...?
See above

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, please state specifically which techniques Vitiate would employ against Yoda.
He have lot of options; the mysterious power with which he purged an entire Dark Council is among these options. In-fact, the full extent of his capabilities are unknown. Full-extent is generous term; much about his capabilities is unknown at the moment.

Originally posted by Master Han
With prep time, and off-screen. We have no idea how he did it, or whether he could replicate it in a fair fight.
The encounter was fair because Vitiate allowed the rebellious Dark Council to confront him; also the power unleashed by him during this event is certainly mysterious in nature but it was insta-killer. Also, I don't get this "prep time" argument; it is obvious from so many examples that Force-users are known to gather power to unleash them in highly effective ways but this happens in a span of some seconds. This is true for Vitiate as well.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, Palpatine by RotS has already upset the balance of the Force and clouded the entire Jedi Order.
Covered above.

Originally posted by Master Han
And if Vitiate really has insta-win Force techniques he can use on the fly, explain why he uses none against Revan's strike team.
Explain to me that why would authors not create a story about Vitiate? Vitiate, not commonly using his mysterious talents, is a case of PIS.

Just like Abeloth didn't kill Luke, Ben and Vestara due to Plot Device, similarly Vitiate didn't use his mysterious capabilities commonly during combat situations due to Plot Device.

However, in debates, we need to look at things from neutral perspective and this changes the game.

pencilcrayon

http://i.imgur.com/zcHdtcf.jpg
Seems like he's draining even while Vader was alive

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
http://i.imgur.com/zcHdtcf.jpg
Seems like he's draining even while Vader was alive
Very interesting! Is this a new source?

Seems like Sidious was close to his DE power status during OT period.

ares834

Awesome. What comic is that from?

The_Tempest

Reversal of Fortune: Recruits.

Col. Valerian

Isn't it somewhere stated that Luke has his father's potential? Or at least very close?

The_Tempest

As Advent exhaustively argued years ago, all that's ever directly said is that Luke has the power to surpass Sidious.

I'd personally rather not confer upon him his father's potential, given that Anakin is the center of a cosmic prophecy and the miraculous circumstances of his birth.

Luke is extraordinary, but I don't think he's quite as lustrous with respect to potential.

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As Advent exhaustively argued years ago, all that's ever directly said is that Luke has the power to surpass Sidious.

I'd personally rather not confer upon him his father's potential, given that Anakin is the center of a cosmic prophecy and the miraculous circumstances of his birth.

Luke is extraordinary, but I don't think he's quite as lustrous with respect to potential.

I think Luke has Galen Marek esq potential. Which kind of makes me wonder why Galen was so powerful. Perahps it was the Force trying to balance itself with the Chosen One further unbalancing itself?

Col. Valerian

Galen "I bring down Star Destroyers" Marek was so powerful because the writers of TFU wanted him to be. I don't think there's more to it, lol.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
SWTORE represents The Old Republic timeline of the history but the authors know that Abeloth and The Ones are also ancient beings and they still promoted Vitiate in the aforementioned fashion.

And? Leland Chee has listed The Father as the most powerful being in Star Wars.

And yes, we know that you have the fancies for the (evil, genocidal) Sith Emperor, but insinuating that he is above Celestial-level beings in power...

That's just a new level of wank.

I'll call your bluff, then. What loopholes?

No, he's not. The Sith Emperor is above Palpatine. He was put on his ass by a Revan, despite being amped at the heart of a DS nexus.

DE Sidious is vastly more powerful than Vitiate ever has been. His Force storms are the most destructive manifestations of the Force yet seen in the mythos.

Too bad for you that canon cannot be dismissed by your whim.

OK...what does this prove? Are you trying to market the Encyclopedia's (not) brilliant prose?

Darth Sidious literally clouded the light side of the Force itself. wink

Since there are things called "communications" devices in the Star Wars universe, that would be a highly conservative declaration.

I don't really understand your mysterious method of posting quotes that have nothing to do with your stance whatsoever. I've read the book; the two actually did knock the Force out of balance...and your quote does nothing to prove otherwise.

Notice that they did so not through the use of sith alchemy, and not through the siphoning of energy sources, but rather through their own sheer power.

Sidious and Plagueis rank among the most powerful Force users in the mythos. And Palpatine hasn't even peaked yet.

Covered by another.

To the extent that Palpatine turned an entire populated planet into a twisted manifestation of the dark side?

Sidious's very death created a DS Force nexus.

I'm assuming that you're taking the information beyond your italics from canon sources, rather than your own fandom.

No, Plagueis realized that, even though he wasn't blessed with this kind of talent, he could still do it anyway.

Ignoring the fact that your hard evidence for sith sorcery's being impossible to defend against with "conventional countermeasures" is precisely zero beyond massive leaps in logic from pseudo-philosophical ramblings, Yoda and Palpatine are both intimately familiar with sith sorcery. Next.

More useless quotes. "sinister" and "uncharted" really don't impress me.

For all his secretive nature, the Emperor has nothing on Yoda and Palpatine, who hold over Vitiate the subtle advantage of having lived after his time, and therefore his knowing literally nothing about them whatsoever.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Actually the records have been lost in history in utterly disturbing ways and this have happened several times. One such example is:

The Sith attack on Coruscant and obliteration of the centuries-old Jedi Temple wiped out millennia of acquired knowledge. (SWTORE, Page 89)

Their are other notable examples.

The net accumulation of knowledge is still positive. As others have pointed out in various threads, it's been stated that the Sith grow in knowledge with each generation. Space age societies don't regress into dark ages that often. Note that Palpatine, wielding the resources of the largest Empire in galactic history, couldn't eradicate the Jedi Order's teachings after two and half decades, let alone a single strike on Coruscant.

Silly appeals to ignorance aside, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIS KILLING THE DARK COUNCIL. You have no evidence and no basis to argue that he could use the "mysterious power" (assuming it even is such) against Yoda or Palpatine in a fair fight.

Otherwise, he would have used this technique against Revan.

Bullshit. Vitiate knew exactly where they were going, exactly when they were coming, and had the resources of his entire fortress (and of an empire) at his disposal. There was absolutely nothing "fair" about the engagement, and it's quite frankly ridiculous for you to suggest otherwise.

Nope, can't do. Your theory, that Vitiate can use mysterious insta-kill flash powers whenever he wants, does not fit with the empirical evidence, that is, his not ever using this technique against foes such as Revan and the Hero. Your retarded "dismiss all inconvenient evidence as PIS!" argument just smacks of blatant dishonesty. It's like you aren't even pretending to be impartial here. That Vitiate killed the dark council in a fair fight is not the only possible explanation - it's a rather incoherent and illogical one that you cling to, despite the mental gymnastics and violations of suspension of disbelief needed to do so.

Nephthys

darth venki

Darth Plagueis would find a 'way' to win.
(opinion only, not inviting any trouble smile

p.s. Darth Sidious moves with sublight speed always makes me laugh.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
And? Leland Chee has listed The Father as the most powerful being in Star Wars.
This declaration have not been acknowledged in canon writing yet, so caution is advised. This declaration have made me perceive The Father in new light however, and you have checked my TIER based ranking list already in another thread.

Originally posted by Master Han
And yes, we know that you have the fancies for the (evil, genocidal) Sith Emperor, but insinuating that he is above Celestial-level beings in power...

That's just a new level of wank.
I don't have fancies for the Sith Emperor; what I appreciate is that the list of (super) characters is expanding with passage of time which is good thing. It became tiresome to always hear ramblings about Luke and Sidious in debates concerning Star Wars. Now we have more (super) characters to talk about and G-canon characters have serious competition.

Also, I don't know how Sith Emperor ranks in the grand picture but he certainly among the best of the best.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'll call your bluff, then. What loopholes?
Such declarations in favor of Sidious are in sources which are now outdated. The latest sources do not hype Sidious in same fashion.

Do you honestly think that Sidious cannot be rivaled and/or surpassed?

Originally posted by Master Han
No, he's not. The Sith Emperor is above Palpatine. He was put on his ass by a Revan, despite being amped at the heart of a DS nexus.
The "amping" part is BS! Sith Emperor once pwned a Jedi Strike Team of one of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order in a neutral setting (a space station). Sith Emperor doesn't needs amping to be super strong.

Also, that particular Revan's feat bodes well for his capabilities (He was a master of both light and dark side abilities and managed to acquire best possible balance between the two aspects of the Force in galactic history; SWTOR offers more proof in this regard); he pulled of a Oneness like feat at that moment and Sith Emperor was caught with his pants down.

So you want to talk about low moments of Sith Emperor?

How about Sidious (DE) getting his connection to the Force disrupted by a Jedi talent (Force Harmony)? Or how about Sidious (DE) getting owned by Han and Brand?

Do no try to mistake great power with invincibility.

In-fact, Sith Emperor (Vitiate) is the only being in galactic history who eventually found a way to make himself (legitimately) invincible but he was stopped before he could complete his final transformation.

Originally posted by Master Han
DE Sidious is vastly more powerful than Vitiate ever has been. His Force storms are the most destructive manifestations of the Force yet seen in the mythos.
By this logic, Sidious (DE) is vastly more powerful then The Father and Abeloth because they haven't demonstrated this level of talent either. roll eyes (sarcastic)

What is your verdict about Nihilus's planetary-scale destructive feat by the way?

Keep in mind that Vitiate is possibly superior to even Nihilus; the former tamed one of the greatest manifestations of dark side power in galactic history with sheer force of his will for his personal gains, while this same power not just obliterated all traces of life in its path but consumed The Force itself around Medriaas. In-fact, it is hinted in canonical sources that Vitiate may have been capable of unleashing destructive power of such a scale single-handedly during his reign as Sith Emperor.

Heck, Vitiate's ultimate plan was to shatter the (Star Wars based) galaxy itself to complete his FINAL TRANSFORMATION in to an omnipotent entity with unparalleled might and capabilities.

Understand, genius?

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad for you that canon cannot be dismissed by your whim.
Too bad for you that canon is continuously evolving.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK...what does this prove? Are you trying to market the Encyclopedia's (not) brilliant prose?
You are not paying attention?

Vitiate was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. Sidious isn't exclusive in this respect.

Originally posted by Master Han
Darth Sidious literally clouded the light side of the Force itself. wink

Sounds like a metaphore. The Force titled in favor of the dark side and the end result would have been what you are trying to describe here.

Originally posted by Master Han
Since there are things called "communications" devices in the Star Wars universe, that would be a highly conservative declaration.
Interesting thought but I don't see the relevance of communication devices in this case. Millions of people suddenly forgot about an event (Thanks to telepathic influence of Palpatine) but how exactly the communication devices would have compromised this development? If information about the "event in question" somehow got out, the inhabitants of Coruscant would have dismissed it as rumor. In addition, their is no proof that the "event in question" was being broadcasted while it happened, or their actually is?

By the way, Vitiate kept the existence of an Empire hidden for a century from other major galactic powers. All kind of external attempts to reveal the existence of this reconstituted ancient Sith Empire failed, thanks to capabilities and homework of Vitiate. The Empire eventually marked it presence when Vitiate willed it.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't really understand your mysterious method of posting quotes that have nothing to do with your stance whatsoever. I've read the book; the two actually did knock the Force out of balance...and your quote does nothing to prove otherwise.
Excuse me! I am posting relevant information. That quote is straight from the book about Plagueis.

You made this claim originally:

Originally posted by Master Han
knock the Force itself out of balance with his mere presence,

- and it is wrong.

Originally posted by Master Han
Notice that they did so not through the use of sith alchemy, and not through the siphoning of energy sources, but rather through their own sheer power.

Sidious and Plagueis rank among the most powerful Force users in the mythos. And Palpatine hasn't even peaked yet.
- They meditated a lot for this objective and eventually accomplished it; I am not sure if others have ever attempted this. This feat however reveals a loophole; limitation of The Father?

- Did I deny?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
To the extent that Palpatine turned an entire populated planet into a twisted manifestation of the dark side?

Sidious's very death created a DS Force nexus.
Perhaps you need to pay attention to ground realities of Dromund Kaas? Vitiate significantly altered its environment with his dark side abilities, permanently transforming Dromund Kaas to a world strong in the dark side.

Jedi, who existed much later (e.g. Yoda, Luke, Ben, Katarn) felt overwhelmed in the environment of Dromund Kaas when they visited this world. All of these Jedi felt that they couldn't properly use their abilities on this world.

I guess that capabilities of HoT, Revan and Meetra are massively underestimated. These Force-users proved that they could better cope with harsh environments then even the most prominent Force-users in the future. HoT, in particular, accomplished the impossible (SWTORE is correct to note that HoT dealt with impossible odds).

I am disappointed in Yoda and Luke now since available evidence proves that these two Jedi are not the unstoppable juggernauts of destruction who are likely to be successful in any era they are thrown in to in history, regardless of significant fan hype behind them. It feels good to note that authorities eventually pulled the plug of invincibility from these two Jedi. cool

I recall Luke getting pwned by Exar Kun. So, genius, caution is advised. You better accept the FACT that both Yoda and Luke can loose to prominent Force-users of the PAST.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm assuming that you're taking the information beyond your italics from canon sources, rather than your own fandom.
I have summarized the ground realities of The Force for you; this level of understanding is based on reading lot of Star Wars stuff.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, Plagueis realized that, even though he wasn't blessed with this kind of talent, he could still do it anyway.
And what did I said?

Originally posted by Master Han
Ignoring the fact that your hard evidence for sith sorcery's being impossible to defend against with "conventional countermeasures" is precisely zero beyond massive leaps in logic from pseudo-philosophical ramblings, Yoda and Palpatine are both intimately familiar with sith sorcery. Next.
What makes you think that these two have answer for any kind of application? What makes you think that these two have an answer for Zannah's Sith Sorcery based talents, let alone Vitiate's monstrous capabilities?

Your belief in invincibility of Yoda and Sidious is misplaced. Both delved in ancient sources to improve their understanding of the mysterious of The Force. It is not as if these two invented new things and put the ancients to shame by doing so.

Originally posted by Master Han
More useless quotes. "sinister" and "uncharted" really don't impress me.
Translation: I (Master Han) am not interested in facts. roll eyes (sarcastic)

That quote confirms that Vitiate delved in to the unnatural aspects of The Force a lot deeper then most ever managed to among the dark side practitioners.

Originally posted by Master Han
For all his secretive nature, the Emperor has nothing on Yoda and Palpatine, who hold over Vitiate the subtle advantage of having lived after his time, and therefore his knowing literally nothing about them whatsoever.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

This proves that you have not done your homework. Birth in future, in no way or form, benefitted Yoda and Sidious in regard to having access to information of about the PAST. Reason is that so many ancient records have ended up getting destroyed or lost with passage of time that full recovery did not remained a possibility. The book on Plagueis, itself, confirmed this situation repeatedly. Sidious was more lucky then Plagueis in uncovering ancient records but this doesn't proves that he found everything or learned a lot about Vitiate. I have pointed it out already that history of ancient records is filled with terrible losses. Unlike the Jedi, the Sith were not always so passionate about passing their knowledge to future generations.

Originally posted by Master Han
The net accumulation of knowledge is still positive. As others have pointed out in various threads, it's been stated that the Sith grow in knowledge with each generation. Space age societies don't regress into dark ages that often. Note that Palpatine, wielding the resources of the largest Empire in galactic history, couldn't eradicate the Jedi Order's teachings after two and half decades, let alone a single strike on Coruscant.
You are utterly mistaken that Sith grew in knowledge with each generation. If this was the case then Brotherhood of Sith would have been more knowledgeable then ancient Sith (In-fact the reverse was true and Bane despised this group). Also, name a single dark side ability of Palpatine which is exclusive to him. Even the famed Force Storm talent is not exclusive to him.

Reality is that a chunk of vital ancient records have been permanently lost. Time and again, individuals (of the most recent eras) have attempted to uncover ancient knowledge and ended up disappointed. Just consider the example of Krayt; he should benefit from Plagueis's and Palpatine's secrets but this was not to be. May I ask why?

Originally posted by Master Han
Silly appeals to ignorance aside, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIS KILLING THE DARK COUNCIL. You have no evidence and no basis to argue that he could use the "mysterious power" (assuming it even is such) against Yoda or Palpatine in a fair fight.
I know this much:

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

The information available is good enough to make us wonder about mysterious capabilities of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Otherwise, he would have used this technique against Revan.
Do you think that Revan was bigger threat then a rebellious Dark Council? Or remotely even close?

Revan's book represents work of one author. In contrast, SWTORE is the newer source (a product of work of several authors) and it offers more information about Vitiate accordingly. Do the math.

Originally posted by Master Han
Bullshit. Vitiate knew exactly where they were going, exactly when they were coming, and had the resources of his entire fortress (and of an empire) at his disposal. There was absolutely nothing "fair" about the engagement, and it's quite frankly ridiculous for you to suggest otherwise.
You are utterly wrong; available information supports my position on this, unfortunately for you.

You think that Dark Council members would plan to overthrow Sith Emperor without being careful or maintain utmost secrecy prior to engaging in the act? You think that Sith Emperor doesn't have foresight abilities?

Even if we are to assume that whistle was blown (which is not apparent from existing information), Sith Emperor still allowed the first known rebellious Dark Council to assemble its resources and try to strike at him and he purged much of it right on the spot when it came too close to him.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
Nope, can't do. Your theory, that Vitiate can use mysterious insta-kill flash powers whenever he wants, does not fit with the empirical evidence, that is, his not ever using this technique against foes such as Revan and the Hero. Your retarded "dismiss all inconvenient evidence as PIS!" argument just smacks of blatant dishonesty. It's like you aren't even pretending to be impartial here. That Vitiate killed the dark council in a fair fight is not the only possible explanation - it's a rather incoherent and illogical one that you cling to, despite the mental gymnastics and violations of suspension of disbelief needed to do so.
First of all, Vitiate have purged two rebellious Dark Councils (almost) with his personal abilities, and such an act would require unprecedented powers at personal capacity.

Secondly;

He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel.

This information confirms that the encounter was as FAIR as possible because Sith Emperor wanted to demonstrate to his followers that he is not to be underestimated even at personal capacity. The showdown proves that Vitiate understood the dark side in ways that majority didn't. More importantly, it would be asinine to assume that Vitiate would pack select few talents that we have come to know in Revan's book; he would have packed lot of talents on the whole.

Thirdly, authors are interested in STORY TELLING; they are likely to create PLOT DEVICES for STORY TELLING purposes.

Some examples:-

Abeloth gets ample opportunities to kill Luke and Ben but she doesn't in her story and this is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Luke and Ben in respectable manner to appease their fans.

Revan was utterly outgunned when Vitiate began to take him seriously but successful interference from the allies of the former is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Revan in respectable manner to appease his fans.

It was not necessary for Sidious to engage Luke in martial aspects of combat after becoming so powerful in DE era but he did so and lost to him in one such encounter. This is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to make the Jedi (Luke and Leia) look good in front of him but the fact is that they were no match for him in fair manner.

------

Of-course, these examples do not prove that Abeloth, Vitiate and Sidious are invincible and unstoppable; they can be stopped depending upon the right kind of opposition. But point is that they have unique advantages of their own in comparison to majority in the mythos and can mark their presence and legitimately premium Force-users.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is certainly huge, but they did gain quite a bit of knowledge that had previously been lost when Satele rediscovered Tython. A lot of stuff from the Je'daii Order for instance.
Good point! Master Gnost specially played a big role in recovering some information from various means.

However, point is that it is unlikely for Yoda to know a thing or two about all individuals that preceded him.

For example: Yoda might know a lot less about secrets of Infinite Empire then lets say Revan. The latter was shunned and reviled even after redemption and stayed away from Jedi business as a consequence. Then he vanished... You can get my gist.

darth venki

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Thirdly, authors are interested in STORY TELLING; they are likely to create PLOT DEVICES for STORY TELLING purposes.

Some examples:-

Abeloth gets ample opportunities to kill Luke and Ben but she doesn't in her story and this is a sign of PLOT DEVICE to bail out Luke and Ben in respectable manner to appease their fans.

This is not an argument. Where is the evidence ? Luke and Ben are powerful in their own right. Lucas told Luke has the same potential as Anakin (chosen one) and he has enough proof of power, which everyone knows.

If we dont have your so called plot devices, watching a film would be like watching Sidious move here and there for an hour and then Abeloth and then Vitiate for another hour moving about. And then telling the people "hey these are the most powerful super villians, so enjoy Starwars" hehehe.

they create duels for more or less equally powerful characters to enjoy Starwars.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by darth venki
This is not an argument. Where is the evidence ? Luke and Ben are powerful in their own right. Lucas told Luke has the same potential as Anakin (chosen one) and he has enough proof of power, which everyone knows.
This IS the ground reality. The power of Luke and Ben is not in question but "how events unfold and what decisions are made" is the REAL THING to focus upon.

Sidious had ample opportunity to kill both Luke and Leia and rather easily; he wielded such powers during DE era. However, plot device is that he wanted Skywalkers to serve him and he made effort towards this end, which gave the Skywalkers the opportunity to unite their strength, plan and set the stage for his eventual demise.

I don't know what you people focus upon while reading a story but my "research oriented background" helps ne to look at things in more depth then what is expected in norm. I can easily differentiate 2 from 4 in a complex story.

Originally posted by darth venki
If we dont have your so called plot devices, watching a film would be like watching Sidious move here and there for an hour and then Abeloth and then Vitiate for another hour moving about. And then telling the people "hey these are the most powerful super villians, so enjoy Starwars" hehehe.
Yes! Plot devices are important for storytelling. In stories, characters make miscalculations and pay the price for such errors or they become victims of unfavorable circumstances. However, it is up to the competency level of a reader to understand the ground realities of a complex story.

When Abeloth was unleashed in the story, she was the most powerful being in the galaxy at that point but authors found a way to put her down. In the story, Abeloth made some miscalculations and paid the price. However, if Abeloth had thought straight then she would have eliminated all opposition but....

The above is true for Vitiate as well.

Originally posted by darth venki
they create duels for more or less equally powerful characters to enjoy Starwars.
Not necessarily! Their are so many duels in which weak are pitted against the strong.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Perhaps you need to pay attention to ground realities of Dromund Kaas? Vitiate significantly altered its environment with his dark side abilities, permanently transforming Dromund Kaas to a world strong in the dark side.

It was already steeped in the dark side...

and, that he can do this over a thousand years hardly compares with Sidious's doing this to Byss in a few decades.

Yeah, you're "disappointed" in their power, because disappointment "feels good to note". If you're going to pretend to maintain some measure of impartiality...you need to do it better.

And here you are again, calling literally a dozen canon statements "fan hype". You are the fan trying to supplement official hierarchies with your own based on vague declarations of said evidence being "outdated".

Don't get your hopes up. Not only was this (pre-NJO and still young) Luke "pwned" by Exar Kun working in tandem with Kyp Durron, but Kevin J Anderson, the creator of Exar Kun, has explicitly stated that all the ancient sith he created were on a "firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.

So, no then.

That he was blessed with said talent...how is this confusing you?

Because Yoda studied defenses against every dark side technique? Because none of these "monstrous capabilities" have ever been demonstrated in combat?

Too bad that the supposedly combat-applicable, unblockable sith sorcery Vitiate supposedly possesses has never been quantified.

The quote confirms that Vitiate is "sinister" and "uncharted".

You're totally right. The modern US military would not stand a chance against the Romans and their lost knowledge and technology.

I'm referring to Bane's order, which, per the Phantom Menace Scrapbook, grew in power with every generation.

So what? Palpatine and Plagueis developed entirely new powers that Vitiate would also be unfamiliar with. It works both ways.

The difference is that Palpatine is far more martially competent than Vitiate.

It is beginning to tire me that you continue to insist on using "mysterious" powers that we know literally nothing about in a debate supposedly founded on facts and evidence.

Scourge's visions suggested that the trio had a serious shot of taking Vitiate down.

So what? Vitiate just decided to fight them hands on (and almost die to Meetra's saber throw) for the kicks, instead of employing the uber-powers you claim he possesses?

This isn't "math". This is your unsubstantiated rambling; NOWHERE IS IT EXPLAINED HOW VITIATE KILLED THE DARK COUNCILS!

1. Prove that he did so under his own power,.
2. Prove that the council was not caught off guard.
3. Prove that the feat can be done without preparation time.
4. Prove that this feat would work against Yoda or Palpatine.
5. Explain why he never used this against Revan.

No, available information leads to the only logical conclusion that he does not possess any insta-win powers, because he would have used them against Revan. That you literally dismiss this point (without even pretending to do otherwise) because it doesn't fit with your interpretation does nothing but indicate your utter inability to analyze the evidence objectively.

The point is that they walked right into his fortress, under his terms, with his having time and resources to prepare whatever the **** he wanted to prepare. That this extends towards being able to pull off an insta-win flash-kill in the midst of combat against two extremely powerful individuals is not just wrong; it's flat out madness.

How do you know he didn't just rig a thermal detonator, or order a strategic missile strike?

Oh, wait, because we're resorting to circular logic here: you dismiss all contrary evidence (vs. Revan) on the grounds that it doesn't fit your conclusion...that is supposed to be derived from said evidence. What dishonest nonsense.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
First of all, Vitiate have purged two rebellious Dark Councils (almost) with his personal abilities, and such an act would require unprecedented powers at personal capacity.

No, it would not. It would require a thermal detonator in a closed space.

Please try to think this through, because your logic here is just embarrassing. Why would the Emperor care if he defeated them fair and square when nobody could know either way? If he did not defeat him fair and square, it would look just a legitimate as if he did, because there were no witnesses to confirm it either way.

Fine then. Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate. How do I know, you ask? Well, his powers are still mysterious. Why doesn't he do this against Yoda? Well, because of PIS.

After all, this "dismiss everything I don't like with out-of-universe rationalizations!" shit can go both ways.

Nope. Abeloth didn't want to kill Ben. And she didn't initially want to kill Luke either. Later, she certainly pulls no strings against the grandmaster.

Nope. Vitiate took Revan seriously from the start, and was still put on his ass.

Good point! I guess DE Sidious could easily defeat Galactus as well. That he never demonstrates galaxy busting power is simply a product of narrative necessity. Wait, isn't everything a product of narrative or thematic necessity? Including the very power levels you claim lie outside them? Wait, aren't we supposed to be analyzing the empirical evidence, and not authorial intent?

The_Tempest

I'd post a funny owned picture, but I'm on my iPhone.

Still can't believe people are dignifying him with responses, but whatever.

Nephthys

The idea that the Dark Council could be taken out by a thermal detonator is dumb as hell though.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
The idea that the Dark Council could be taken out by a thermal detonator is dumb as hell though.

This is especially dumb of you to say for an era where bounty hunters and soldiers can take on sith lords. Unless if some "anti-thermal detonator" power appears somewhere in the lore, I see no reason why Vitiate could not drop one on the council, other than your wanting to interpret every possible occurrence as indicative of his possessing magical powers we never see.

Nephthys

They can take on, like, one. And it takes more than a single grenade. They can't take out 12 of the most powerful Sith in the Empire with a single thermal detonator.

Yeah an "anti-thermal detonator" exists, its called a basic ****ing force shield. Just two Dark Council members destroyed the gigantic Citadel, and you think a thermal detonator can take out 12 of them? Jesus....

The_Tempest

For the record the SWTOR camp would be using the thermal detonator argument if it were, say, Dooku and not Vitiate or Bane.

Fair play is a b1tch.

WTF. I think Sidious can destroy fleets and still die from a blaster shot to the back. Ever hear of a glass cannon, Neph?

Nephthys

Originally posted by The_Tempest
For the record the SWTOR camp would be using the thermal detonator argument if it were, say, Dooku and not Vitiate or Bane.

Fair play is a b1tch.

WTF. I think Sidious can destroy fleets and still die from a blaster shot to the back. Ever hear of a glass cannon, Neph?

Or Malak, right? no expression

Oh no wait, I thought it was retarded then, too.

Dude was dying. I've never used that against Sidious because ****ing duh.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can take on, like, one. And it takes more than a single grenade. They can't take out 12 of the most powerful Sith in the Empire with a single thermal detonator.

Yeah an "anti-thermal detonator" exists, its called a basic ****ing force shield. Just two Dark Council members destroyed the gigantic Citadel, and you think a thermal detonator can take out 12 of them? Jesus....

Your typical thermal detonator can vaporize pretty much everything within a 10 meter radius. More powerful thermal detonators can have blast radii of up to 100 meters - around the size of Hiroshima's fireball.

Now, nobody said Vitiate wasn't doing anything under his own power to contribute to the assassination; he could have clouded their minds and drained their precognition and ability to erect Force defenses. But Jedi and Sith alike have used grenades to take out Force users before, and the notion that Vitiate stood in front of the council and just insta-killed them with a flash of light, and that he could do this against anyone in any circumstance, smacks of pure straw grabbing.

The_Tempest

No, given Malak's proximity to SWTOR, I don't think you'd support a thermal detonator argument. But I like Master Han because he takes the same dumb biased arguments you'd use and clobbers you over the head with them.

Meanwhile I gorge myself on your outrage.

The_Tempest

What's this? A pause? No. No respite, no mercy. Finish him, Master Han.

Feed me!

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
Your typical thermal detonator can vaporize pretty much everything within a 10 meter radius. More powerful thermal detonators can have blast radii of up to 100 meters - around the size of Hiroshima's fireball.

Now, nobody said Vitiate wasn't doing anything under his own power to contribute to the assassination; he could have clouded their minds and drained their precognition and ability to erect Force defenses. But Jedi and Sith alike have used grenades to take out Force users before, and the notion that Vitiate stood in front of the council and just insta-killed them with a flash of light, and that he could do this against anyone in any circumstance, smacks of pure straw grabbing.

It says they died in a sudden flash. If it was an explosion it would have said that, especially if everything was vaporised in a 10-100 meter radius. The fact that Darth Lokess was identified specifically as not being among the dead also suggests that isn't the case, as does the fact that she wasn't killed, ruling out something as indiscriminate as a mere explosion.

I don't think Vitiate could do it in any circumstance. As you said he had ample prep in order to do it. I wouldn't argue him repeating it in any other circumstance that one when he has prep. What I take issue with is the idea that the entire Council could be taken out with a single grenade. If it was that childishly simple a random Bounty Hunter could solo them. Its plainly idiotic.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, given Malak's proximity to SWTOR, I don't think you'd support a thermal detonator argument. But I like Master Han because he takes the same dumb biased arguments you'd use and clobbers you over the head with them.

Meanwhile I gorge myself on your outrage.

I dislike Malak quite a lot so no. Its still brick-dumb.

I wouldn't make this argument. You're the one whose historically done so, with your 'Revan beat Malak with mines' and 'Nihilus used a tractor beam' and a host of other arguments.

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
It says they died in a sudden flash. If it was an explosion it would have said that, especially if everything was vaporised in a 10-100 meter radius. The fact that Darth Lokess was identified specifically as not being among the dead also suggests that isn't the case, as does the fact that she wasn't killed, ruling out something as indiscriminate as a mere explosion.

I don't think Vitiate could do it in any circumstance. As you said he had ample prep in order to do it. I wouldn't argue him repeating it in any other circumstance that one when he has prep. What I take issue with is the idea that the entire Council could be taken out with a single grenade. If it was that childishly simple and random Bounty Hunter could solo them. Its plainly idiotic.

You seem to think that my "thermal detonator" argument was 100% literal, in that he specifically killed the dark council with a thermonuclear grenade similar to the one used by Leia in RotJ...

yeah, no. The point is that Vitiate had access to technological assets in addition to his Force abilities and a massive quantity of prep time. Maybe he had booby trapped the room and used his Force abilities to cloud their precognition. Perhaps he sported a double barreled grenade launcher. Or maybe he just lured them into a tactically disadvantageous position and pulled off a prep-reliant Force power or ritual.

Either way, there is literally nothing about their disappearing in a "bright flash" that indicates Vitiate's superiority over the combined dark council.

The_Tempest

Good... Good!

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
You seem to think that my "thermal detonator" argument was 100% literal, in that he specifically killed the dark council with a thermonuclear grenade similar to the one used by Leia in RotJ...

yeah, no. The point is that Vitiate had access to technological assets in addition to his Force abilities and a massive quantity of prep time. Maybe he had booby trapped the room and used his Force abilities to cloud their precognition. Perhaps he sported a double barreled grenade launcher. Or maybe he just lured them into a tactically disadvantageous position and pulled off a prep-reliant Force power or ritual.

Either way, there is literally nothing about their disappearing in a "bright flash" that indicates Vitiate's superiority over the combined dark council.

Ok....

They died on the Council steps. If you'd played the game you'd know thats right out in the open with camera's pointed right at it. If it was anything technological Imperial Intelligence could easily identify it. He clearly took them out as you said, with a prep-reliant Force power or ritual.

I wouldn't say that. It does indicate that he can take them out with prep though, through a technique or ritual.

Also only Lokess disappeared, the rest just died. Again, thats a level of discrimination beyond technological means of mass destruction.

Master Han

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Good... Good!

Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok....

They died on the Council steps. If you'd played the game you'd know thats right out in the open with camera's pointed right at it. If it was anything technological Imperial Intelligence could easily identify it. He clearly took them out as you said, with a prep-reliant Force power or ritual.

I wouldn't say that. It does indicate that he can take them out with prep though, through a technique or ritual.

Also only Lokess disappeared, the rest just died. Again, thats a level of discrimination beyond technological means of mass destruction.

Your claim that somebody would have seen any technological inference ignores the fact that nobody actually saw what happened...except that there was a bright flash, and they all died. That's it. And LOL at the cameras argument; you don't think Vitiate couldn't turn those off on command? So, what's to say he didn't chuck a grenade at them (and there are plenty of ways to figure out who died without having identifiable bodies)? Or pull out a shotgun? You really have no idea.

You can't prove that he used the Force against them to any impressive degree. You can't prove that he really did anything impressive in terms of pure power. He just somehow, mysteriously, managed to kill them with the cards stacked in his favor in every possible manner. It's an inadmissible and wholly useless "feat".

Nephthys

haermm

Vitiate killed them all with a shotgun. Oh god, now I know you're trolling me!

Master Han

Originally posted by Nephthys
haermm

Vitiate killed them all with a shotgun. Oh god, now I know you're trolling me!

You obviously didn't get the memo; the point is that Vitiate could have killed them with anything, and so the feat is utterly unquantifiable and pointless. It could have been a grenade, a shotgun, carbon monoxide, or a giant, bottomless pit. That the ideas seem ridiculous just points to the ridiculous margin of deviation of the quote's possible interpretations.

Nephthys

"Giant, bottomless pit." drylaugh

Master Han

This. Is. Wankiate!

Fryier2928

I'm sorry, but the idea that the dark council was destroyed by a flash grenade is just pure comedy. I haven't seen that much pitiful reaching since the days of lightsnake and the antedeluvians.

Master Han

Originally posted by Fryier2928
I'm sorry, but the idea that the dark council was destroyed by a flash grenade is just pure comedy. I haven't seen that much pitiful reaching since the days of lightsnake and the antedeluvians.

I know, right? And Bane moved a moon. Duh.

Galan007

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That sounds pretty awesome. Where exactly is it from? Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Clone Wars: Infinities from Magazine 7. http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556930_cwus107-40.jpghttp://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556931_cwus107-41.jpg

Nephthys

Why couldn't Anakin be that badass in canon?

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why couldn't Anakin be that badass in canon?

The Star Wars Universe would implode on itself. Imagine the rage if Hayden Christensen solo'd Yoda and Palpatine. laughing

The Merchant

Could Zonama Sekot beat him?

The_Tempest

Just imagine the awkwardness of Sidious and Yoda meeting up at the landing platform before Anakin arrived.

Nephthys

"Sup."

"Up, what is?"

Mizukage Yoda

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Just imagine the awkwardness of Sidious and Yoda meeting up at the landing platform before Anakin arrived.

Palps likely called Yoda into his office.

"I'm Darth Sidious, I know you probably want to kill me right now, but I'm the strongest Sith in history, and you're the strongest Jedi and if we're going to beat Anakin, we need to join forces."
"Agree I do."
Anakin: You underestimate my power.
*****s them*

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
It was already steeped in the dark side...
Proof of this?

Originally posted by Master Han
and, that he can do this over a thousand years hardly compares with Sidious's doing this to Byss in a few decades.
Their is not a single solid planet in the galaxy whose climatic conditions are continuously stormy and something. Vitiate heavily altered the environment of Dromund Kaas on the basis of his dark side practices; Revan's novel hints on this.

Also, on what basis have you assumed that it took Vitiate a thousand years to alter the environment of Domund Kaas?

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, you're "disappointed" in their power, because disappointment "feels good to note". If you're going to pretend to maintain some measure of impartiality...you need to do it better.
Would you concentrate on the point? Luke and Yoda were not able to cope well with the dark side environment of Dromund Kaas; their powers were lot less effective in this world. Evidently, this is indication of their limitations or understanding of the ways of the Force. In contrast, HoT, Revan and Meetra did well on Dromund Kaas. Intended message is that ELITES of ancient times should not be underestimated; Yoda and Luke may have lot of feats (thanks to interest of authors in them) but they are not without realistic limitations or not necessarily superior to ELITES of ancient times. Both Yoda and Luke can possibly loose to ELITES of ancient times.

Originally posted by Master Han
And here you are again, calling literally a dozen canon statements "fan hype". You are the fan trying to supplement official hierarchies with your own based on vague declarations of said evidence being "outdated".
http://www.blogtap.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/face_palm.jpg

Originally posted by Master Han
Don't get your hopes up. Not only was this (pre-NJO and still young) Luke "pwned" by Exar Kun working in tandem with Kyp Durron, but Kevin J Anderson, the creator of Exar Kun, has explicitly stated that all the ancient sith he created were on a "firmly lower tier" than Palpatine.
This is NJO timeline event, genius. Luke was already a very powerful Jedi Master by this time and established a Jedi Academy on Yavin 4 but Exar Kun began to interfere with his works.

And my point is not about who is superior between Exar Kun and Sidious but that Yoda, Sidious and Luke are not infallible.

Originally posted by Master Han
So, no then.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/11/12/832b30b4-c7e4-4ed2-8e9e-b250b4a7a770.jpg

Originally posted by Master Han
That he was blessed with said talent...how is this confusing you?
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7224/7189516163_8843b8d69d_z.jpg

So what the hell do you think I am trying to convey to you in this case?

This: Plagueis was good in the use of Sith Sorcery (not necessarily ELITE but good) and he eventually realized this after many years of meditation and stuff.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Yoda studied defenses against every dark side technique? Because none of these "monstrous capabilities" have ever been demonstrated in combat?
1. Proof of this?
2. First Dark Council Purge based example have been mentioned (you may choose to ignore it but this is a sign of your close-mindedness and idiocy)

Originally posted by Master Han
Too bad that the supposedly combat-applicable, unblockable sith sorcery Vitiate supposedly possesses has never been quantified.
http://i42.tinypic.com/mcaqfa.gif

We have examples of him purging two Dark Councils and this cannot be possible with conventional abilities barring Force Storm.

Originally posted by Master Han
The quote confirms that Vitiate is "sinister" and "uncharted".
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/154624-128847344485080355_super.jpg

Were you drunk when you wrote this response?

The revelation is that Vitiate explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side.

Uber genius....fool....

Originally posted by Master Han
You're totally right. The modern US military would not stand a chance against the Romans and their lost knowledge and technology.
http://img2.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/full/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%8B-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%81-%D0%B2%D0%B7%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B2-%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8B-323582.jpeg

You are comparing Sci-Fi with real life?

I guess that you will jump out of the window when you will learn about accomplishments of Celestials (far more ancient civilization then even the Raktans). They reshaped the Galaxy itself; they developed devices that can pull even planets.

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm referring to Bane's order, which, per the Phantom Menace Scrapbook, grew in power with every generation.
Ok! This is correct.

However, this is not the situation with entire history.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what? Palpatine and Plagueis developed entirely new powers that Vitiate would also be unfamiliar with. It works both ways.
And these are?

Originally posted by Master Han
The difference is that Palpatine is far more martially competent than Vitiate.
And I don't know this? By the way, Vitiate's martial expertise is unclear. Regardless, Vitiate have dealt with superb swordsmen just fine.

Originally posted by Master Han
It is beginning to tire me that you continue to insist on using "mysterious" powers that we know literally nothing about in a debate supposedly founded on facts and evidence.
Point is that Vitiate have special abilities which are unclear and unidentified at the moment. But the abilities are factual and factor-in. Much about Vitiate's capabilities is shrouded in mystery.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge's visions suggested that the trio had a serious shot of taking Vitiate down.
His visions showed him lot of possibilities and but he realized that the risk of getting overwhelmed is too high and backed out.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what? Vitiate just decided to fight them hands on (and almost die to Meetra's saber throw) for the kicks, instead of employing the uber-powers you claim he possesses?
So? Vitiate was slowly but surely upping his game with each passing moment and he was ready to take on all 3 of them and he responded to Revan's tout with this remark:

"That remains to be seen"

Scourge's visions lend credibility to the fact that Vitiate was more then a match for even all 3 of them.

In-fact, prior to this encounter, Vitiate had killed 8 powerful individuals single-handedly.

Originally posted by Master Han
This isn't "math". This is your unsubstantiated rambling; NOWHERE IS IT EXPLAINED HOW VITIATE KILLED THE DARK COUNCILS!

1. Prove that he did so under his own power,.
2. Prove that the council was not caught off guard.
3. Prove that the feat can be done without preparation time.
4. Prove that this feat would work against Yoda or Palpatine.
5. Explain why he never used this against Revan.
I am not interested in satisfying your never-ending curiosity. I have posted whatever information is available to me. Fact is that Vitiate was the only individual who almost purged the whole Dark Council. No where it have been implied that he sought help from his powerbase or something. In-fact, Vitiate established his powerbase after this encounter.

Also whole Dark Council will utterly annihilate Revan, Yoda, and Palpatine in a direct confrontation. Only Palpatine (as of DE) can afford to take it out with his Force Storm talent, should he get the opportunity.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, available information leads to the only logical conclusion that he does not possess any insta-win powers, because he would have used them against Revan. That you literally dismiss this point (without even pretending to do otherwise) because it doesn't fit with your interpretation does nothing but indicate your utter inability to analyze the evidence objectively.
You idiocy remains unparalleled. I have repeatedly point out repeatedly that Vitiate doesn't uses his top powers on Revan due to plot device. In-fact, I can assert that Revan doesn't uses his Fold Space ability during this encounter to escape because of plot device or he didn't get the chance. Same way, Dooku didn't use his Force powers on Anakin to great degree during their last confrontation due to plot device and the list goes on and on....

Vitiate makes an assessment of his opposition and acts accordingly. For example: Vitiate was trapped and locked in a struggle on Voss by its gigantic entity for the control of an avatar which was under firm control of the entity but he was getting nowhere so he planned destruction of Voss on planetary-scale to eradicate everything on it but a Sith Warrior bailed him out soon after.

The greater the opposition, the more stern action Vitiate is willing to take accordingly. He would have annihilated Revan if the latter was not saved by one of the Jedi's companions and guess what happened to this companion? (Shattered to countless pieces). In-fact, Vitiate braced himself to annihilate the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously but this was not to happen due to plot device since Revan was featured in SWTOR game and the author couldn't end him like that.

Try to understand presented arguments instead of wasting my time with silly reactions.

Originally posted by Master Han
The point is that they walked right into his fortress, under his terms, with his having time and resources to prepare whatever the **** he wanted to prepare. That this extends towards being able to pull off an insta-win flash-kill in the midst of combat against two extremely powerful individuals is not just wrong; it's flat out madness.
Of-course, Vitiate prepared himself for this encounter; he was about to face the most potent force in direct combat and it was not advisable for him to fight them Dooku style. He would have gathered lot of power at that moment since he was siphoning energies from countless beings and then unleashed it on the opposition, insta-terminating it on the spot.

Greatest of the dark side abilities cannot be unleashed right on the spot without adequate preparation. Sidious's command of the Force Storm is not an exception to this rule either; when he began to gather sufficient power to summon unleash Force Storm on his Jedi opposition, the Jedi found ample time to disrupt his connection with the Force with the Force Harmony technique during this moment, which resulted in Sidious loosing control over his powers and the Jedi found sufficient time to escape as well.

But people tend to blow the "preparation" argument out of proportion.

For example: Yoda and Sidious decide to confront Vitiate. Now depending upon the circumstances, Vitiate is likely to prepare himself to fight them if he is aware. This prep might take just a few seconds or minutes? Who knows?

Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know he didn't just rig a thermal detonator, or order a strategic missile strike?
I guess you missed out Abrams Tank; Apache Gunship; F-22 Raptor; Atom bomb and much more from the range of possibilities...

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/278/2/a/Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH.jpg

Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, wait, because we're resorting to circular logic here: you dismiss all contrary evidence (vs. Revan) on the grounds that it doesn't fit your conclusion...that is supposed to be derived from said evidence. What dishonest nonsense.
Covered above.

Even that "swirling storm of pure dark side energies" which Vitiate unleashed on Revan would have reduced the Jedi to ash. And Vitiate was ready to up his game even further. To be honest, his limits are planetary-scale devastation. You have no argument.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
No, it would not. It would require a thermal detonator in a closed space.

Please try to think this through, because your logic here is just embarrassing. Why would the Emperor care if he defeated them fair and square when nobody could know either way? If he did not defeat him fair and square, it would look just a legitimate as if he did, because there were no witnesses to confirm it either way.

Fine then. Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate. How do I know, you ask? Well, his powers are still mysterious. Why doesn't he do this against Yoda? Well, because of PIS.

After all, this "dismiss everything I don't like with out-of-universe rationalizations!" shit can go both ways.

Nope. Abeloth didn't want to kill Ben. And she didn't initially want to kill Luke either. Later, she certainly pulls no strings against the grandmaster.

Nope. Vitiate took Revan seriously from the start, and was still put on his ass.

Good point! I guess DE Sidious could easily defeat Galactus as well. That he never demonstrates galaxy busting power is simply a product of narrative necessity. Wait, isn't everything a product of narrative or thematic necessity? Including the very power levels you claim lie outside them? Wait, aren't we supposed to be analyzing the empirical evidence, and not authorial intent?
I think I have wasted lot of time on addressing your epically disappointing arguments already.

I can raise more questions now:-

1. Why did Vitiate not use his titanic Force Drain abilities on Revan?
2. Why did Vitiate not just sever Revan's connection with the Force?
3. Why did Vitiate not create illusions of himself during this fight to confuse Revan?

Why did Vitiate not use yellow technique against Revan when have used the said technique in a different fight?

I mean, their should be a limit to idiocy.

Vitiate have lot of options under his disposal. What options he uses in a scripted scenario is up to the authors to decide. Of-course, in a neutral situation such as versus scenario, his arsenal of options is BIG:-

1. Telepathic domination
2. Illusions
3. Force Drain
4. Force Sever
5. Force lightning; Swirling Storm
6. Telekinetic applications
7. Energy blasts
9. Sith Sorcery based talents

And the list goes on and on...

Also, nope! We cannot make baseless assumptions like this "Sidious can defeat Vitiate by exploding his brain with Force Levitate" without valid basis because we have to note that how effective he can be with said techniques. We focus on feats; strengths and weaknesses; holistic picture of things and then we can figure out the possibilities accordingly.

For example: Evidence indicates that Vitiate is one of the greatest adepts of Force Drain talent in the mythos and logic dictates that he is going to be effective in its use even in combat situations. Same is true for Sidious.

Intrepid37

Damn, five-double post.

Master Han

So you're founding your entire argument...on powers we do not know about, whose capabilities are mysterious and undefined?

...and all evidence contrary to your fan interpretation, that by your own admission can't be proven due to the event's mysterious nature, must be dismissed on the arbitrary basis of "plot device"?

Holy shit, why am I even wasting my time with you?

-----

BTW, three major, glaring flaws in your argument:

1. You don't understand what a retcon is.
2. You conceded that your whole bullshit about sith sorcery being somehow uber-more-powerful than regular Force abilities was complete nonsense when you declared that the fact that Palpatine "meditated" by default leads to the conclusion that he must have used rituals. And guess what? Every Jedi and Sith can perform certain feats in the Force through meditation.
3. Exar Kun vs. Luke happened during the Jedi Academy series, not any time significantly near NJO. At this point, he still regularly struggles against random dark Jedi. And the creator of Exar Kun admitted that he is on a firmly lower tier than Palpatine.

ares834

Originally posted by Galan007
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556930_cwus107-40.jpghttp://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556931_cwus107-41.jpg

Dang. Doubt anyone could stop him. Certainly Vitiate would be unable.

Mizukage Yoda

Lol Legend strikes again thinking that posting 5 images and making a multi-page post makes his argument valid.

Intrepid37

strikes again lol

ares834

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol Legend strikes again thinking that posting 5 images and making a multi-page post makes his argument valid.

laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Master Han
So you're founding your entire argument...on powers we do not know about, whose capabilities are mysterious and undefined?

...and all evidence contrary to your fan interpretation, that by your own admission can't be proven due to the event's mysterious nature, must be dismissed on the arbitrary basis of "plot device"?

Holy shit, why am I even wasting my time with you?
What you have not yet realized is that Revan was destined to survive during his second confrontation with Sith Emperor due to plot device: Revan is alive in SWTOR game which represents events taking place 300 years later after the events of the novel.

Vitiate's story have been vastly expanded in a sourcebook released after Revan's novel. It is in this new sourcebook that Vitiate's mysterious powers have been hinted upon.

So the situation is like this:-

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game (2011) -> Revan is alive
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan (2011) -> Explains how Revan is alive 300 years later
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia (2012) > Vitiate's mysterious powers hinted upon

Everything clear now? Vitiate's actions against Revan are restricted due to plot device.

Keep in mind that Vitiate did not use several of his powers on Revan which he have actually used during some of his other encounters. Therefore, your skeptical attitude towards the mysterious abilities of Vitiate is misplaced.

Vitiate is a new entry in the mythos; featured in few sources thus far. Their is ample room for exploration here. At the moment, we have an example of one of his mysterious abilities in action. However, we cannot just ignore this feat because the mysterious application involved in it is not identified yet. The effectiveness of this mysterious application is certainly quantifiable on the basis of its effectiveness in the event. Nature wise, it seems close to some powers introduced or depicted in KoTOR II.

Originally posted by Master Han
1. You don't understand what a retcon is.
Maybe you can enlighten me then

Originally posted by Master Han
2. You conceded that your whole bullshit about sith sorcery being somehow uber-more-powerful than regular Force abilities was complete nonsense when you declared that the fact that Palpatine "meditated" by default leads to the conclusion that he must have used rituals. And guess what? Every Jedi and Sith can perform certain feats in the Force through meditation.
I didn't get one bit of this gibberish.

I have pointed out that Plagueis and Sidious unbalanced The Force by performing a ritual. What is so difficult to understand here?

Originally posted by Master Han
3. Exar Kun vs. Luke happened during the Jedi Academy series, not any time significantly near NJO.
This event occurred in 11 ABY and Luke was busy in recreating the Jedi Order during this time (New Jedi Order). This is the beginning of the NJO chapters in Luke's story.

Originally posted by Master Han
At this point, he still regularly struggles against random dark Jedi.
And which are these random Dark Jedi?

In addition, Luke have some of his most impressive showings in DE. Do you realize this? He was already noticeably stronger then Vader by the time he met Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Master Han
And the creator of Exar Kun admitted that he is on a firmly lower tier than Palpatine.
Is this an official declaration or unofficial one?

Still, I never argued about Sidious being stronger then Exar Kun! He really is.

The purpose of citing Exar Kun in this debate is to make it clear to you that Yoda and Luke are not infallible regardless of the hype they typically receive. Exar Kun downed a very capable incarnation of Luke and this is eye-opening revelation. The example of Exar Kun proves that HIGH/ELITE TIER of ancient era are very capable and remarkable Force-users and can hold their own against the likes of Yoda, Luke and Sidious.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Galan007
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556930_cwus107-40.jpghttp://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/16556931_cwus107-41.jpg
Thanks for posting this.

Even though the description mentions Skywalker; isn't The Son actually helping him?

Also, this event represents an ILLUSION.

I recall Meetra defeating Revan and Malak in KoTOR II; doesn't means that she could do so in real life.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Master Han
Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.

Your claim that somebody would have seen any technological inference ignores the fact that nobody actually saw what happened...except that there was a bright flash, and they all died. That's it. And LOL at the cameras argument; you don't think Vitiate couldn't turn those off on command? So, what's to say he didn't chuck a grenade at them (and there are plenty of ways to figure out who died without having identifiable bodies)? Or pull out a shotgun? You really have no idea.

You can't prove that he used the Force against them to any impressive degree. You can't prove that he really did anything impressive in terms of pure power. He just somehow, mysteriously, managed to kill them with the cards stacked in his favor in every possible manner. It's an inadmissible and wholly useless "feat".

Originally posted by Master Han
You obviously didn't get the memo; the point is that Vitiate could have killed them with anything, and so the feat is utterly unquantifiable and pointless. It could have been a grenade, a shotgun, carbon monoxide, or a giant, bottomless pit. That the ideas seem ridiculous just points to the ridiculous margin of deviation of the quote's possible interpretations.

No, I get what your point is. Its been made before, back when people claimed that Revan could have beaten Malak using mines. So I do get your point. I just think that its incredibly stupid and ignorant. Vitiate doesn't even use a lightsaber, you think he's going to use a ****ing grenade?

And duh people saw it happen, as I said the Citadel is literally right in the middle of Kaas City with dozens of buildings surrounding it and people walking passed it. Sith freely go in and out of it all the time and there are guards everywhere around the entrance. As I said, if it was anything mundane then it would be easily identifiable and the text would not simple say they died in a flash of light and you've not explained what weapon can be that discriminate or offered up a single non-force based attack that can actually accomplish the feat. Regardless of how completely insane it is to think that a mundane weapon can kill the Dark Council.

The quote just says they died in a flash of light. It also says they died 'on' the Citadel steps, ruling out any explosives or other weapon that would surely demolish the steps along with the Council in order to kill them so swiftly and, yknow, with enough firepower to actually kill the most powerful Sith in the Empire. As I've pointed out theres nothing that can actually do that unless we go into Force attacks. Occums Razor dictates that instead of entertaining thoughts of how he could have done it with a weapon, that instead Vitiate used what he's actually known for, his immense Force knowledge and plethora of unknown rituals and techniques, to achieve it.

And even if he did do any of that, that STILL indicates he can pull off something like this with prep, regardless of how he actually achieved it. He's still shown the ability to kill 12 of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy in a single attack, which is above what practically ANY character can survive. If he used a shotgun then drop to your knees because he must be the God of Shotguns, lmao.

I'm not going to dignify this line of reasoning with another response, its too stupid to entertain any longer. I just wanted to make this clear to you and sum up my feelings so you don't go throwing around this inanity in actual debates.

Master Han

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What you have not yet realized is that Revan was destined to survive during his second confrontation with Sith Emperor due to plot device: Revan is alive in SWTOR game which represents events taking place 300 years later after the events of the novel.

Fine then.

Agen Kolar is obviously more than capable of killing Palpatine with his dick. The only reason why he doesn't is because Palpatine has to survive (and win) due to plot device.

His powers are mysterious. You therefore cannot prove that they would be useful in a fight. You therefore are wasting our time by arguing them. Do you understand it, with this simpleton language?

THEN WHY THE **** SHOULD I CARE ABOUT IT?

A retcon implies a re-interpretation of events to change the perception of certain facts. For example, Obi Wan tells Luke in ANH that Vader killed Anakin; later, we learn that he was really lying/twisting the truth, and that Anakin became Darth Vader. The empirical facts didn't change; it is a fact that Obi Wan told Luke that Anakin was killed by Vader, but it was never a "fact", but rather an extrapolation, that Obi Wan was telling the truth.

Here, however, no source has "retconned", contradicted, or even remotely dared to challenge the plethora of assertions that Darth Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history by as early as AotC. You simply think that "I personally disagree with these statements!" constitutes a retcon.

That you earlier claimed Vitiate's knowledge of sith sorcery puts him on a "supernatural", even by Force standards, level over Yoda and Palpatine...yet we see Palpatine and Plagueis performing "rituals" (that may not have even been rituals) that possibly outclass anything Vitiate's ever done. And this is pre-TPM Sidious.

No, it isn't. wink

Luke's NJO numbers over 200 by the start of the Vong war. There is a fourteen year gap between JA and NJO; ie., the time it took for TPM Anakin to become RotS Anakin. Since Darth Maul could easily kill TPM Anakin, I suppose he's above the one in RotS as well, right? laughing

A response to an interview question. He says it without hesitation or subjectivity, and he created the damn characters.

Then your "Exar Kun can pwn Luke trololol" is nothing more than another one of your wordcount-padding ramblings?

How pathetic; you think it's a "low showing" that Sidious's defenses can be breached by "some techniques", and criticize me by pointing out that Yoda and Luke aren't "infallible" (by using a Luke significantly weaker than the NJO+ one)...and all for what? The disturbing implication here is either that you think Vitiate is infallible, or that you're pursuing one of the dumbest strawmans in KMC history.