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Who wins? Takes place on the Death star throne room, but instead Luke must face malak instead of vader. give a reason for why your choice would win.

Luke. Fighting Vader as an equal swordsman is better than anything Malak's done.

hmm, good point. Though to be fair, vader could have ended the fight at any time with his force abilities. This is all-out, not just sabers or just force.

What Force feats does Malak have?

Malak off the star forge has virtually nothing. All he's done is stasis Bastila and mid-game Revan.

Malak has utilized a wide variety of abilities, being able to use the force to create whirlwinds and stasis fields (both happen in cutscenes) against an enemy of Revan's caliber (admittedly mid-game). He has also utilized force choke, lightning, and saber throw (in cutscene). He has defeated Revan in single combat on the Leviathan (again, mid game), and was stated by bastila to be able to defeat the entire ebon hawk crew, including revan (during the events of the leviathan). His variety of force abilities is very impressive.

Seems pretty standard, nothing too incredible.

I can completely understand that, however what force abilities has Luke displayed by RotJ? I always feel like malak should be stronger than he seems, being a brute-force type of dark lord

Anyways, this is my analysis of how it would go:

Sabers: Luke

Force: Malak, due to a wide variety of abilities that could catch luke off-guard

Physically: Luke is faster, but malak is stronger (seemingly).

Malak really is underestimated imo he is likely to be the second strongest of the era

I'd say so as well (at least if we're not counting sith emperor's empire). Remember darth sion is considered very impressive by some, and he served malak

edit: anyway, who do you think wins? I think they both have a shot at winning.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malak really is underestimated imo he is likely to be the second strongest of the era

Which says a lot about the era.

Although Nihilus, Vitiate, The Exile, Nyriss, Kreia and maybe Sion are stronger than him imo if you count them as in the same era.

wouldn't say Nyriss, she only beat scourge and an incredibly weakened exile. I'd say malak > exile, as in the Revan Novel Revan thought about how he'd take malak with him, were he not dead. Nihilus, idk, as he seems to be quite the enigma to me. vitiate obviously, Traya maybe (though it would be due to her force abilities, if malak closes the distance....), Malak is stronger than sion most likely, sion served malak in the war.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
wouldn't say Nyriss, she only beat scourge and an incredibly weakened exile.

Whereas Malak has beaten?

And the Exile wasn't weakened. Those two are still above anything Malak has ever done under his own power.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'd say malak > exile, as in the Revan Novel Revan thought about how he'd take malak with him, were he not dead.

Meh, don't care. By feats the Exile has a distinct edge on him, beating an entire Sith temple while crushed by increased gravity and one of the most potent darkside nexus' ever. And she's got better lightsaber feats in her absurd learning rate.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nihilus, idk, as he seems to be quite the enigma to me.

He would annihilate Malak. He's likely the 3rd most powerful Sith ever imo.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Traya maybe (though it would be due to her force abilities, if malak closes the distance....),

Even if he does Traya has her 3 lightsabers to fend him off.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Malak is stronger than sion most likely, sion served malak in the war.

Even if he is, Sion has his ability to ignore death. Arguably he'd be able to beat him eventually.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malak really is underestimated imo he is likely to be the second strongest of the era

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this is the same era with Meetra, Vitiate, Kun, Ulic Qel Droma, Nihilus and even Sion.

and how is scourge during the revan novel better than malak? almost getting killed by a bounty hunter? And meetra was most likely weakened she was on dromund kaas, a dark side nexus, weakening here (to a high degree) while strengthening nyriss. I think the exile would beat nyriss on even terms. Also, Revan's opinion means nothing? Also, Traya is canonically stronger than Meetra I believe . I think Malak is perfectly capable of beating down sion 3-4 times, as meetra did. By what we know of them both, malak is physically stronger than meetra, has (arguably) a wider range of force abilities, and overall are probably equal in lightsaber combat. Meetra does have better feats, but we cannot solely judge our placement of a character based off of that. Example would be: Maul> The Daughter

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malak really is underestimated imo he is likely to be the second strongest of the era
I second that.

If I were to place Malak power-wise, I'd put him somewhere between TCW Maul and Dooku, but that's just my arbitrary choice.

Originally posted by XRKun
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this is the same era with Meetra, Vitiate, Kun, Ulic Qel Droma, Nihilus and even Sion.


Exar and Droma were about 50 years earlier. They're KotoR, but far enough distant to probably mention separate.



Vitiate, we generally only count in the TOR era, much later, because he was off in space somewhere.



Only Meetra, Nihilus, and Sion are more properly the same era.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which says a lot about the era.

Although Nihilus, Vitiate, The Exile, Nyriss, Kreia and maybe Sion are stronger than him imo if you count them as in the same era.

Nihilus is a giant outlier as is Vitiate. The Exile is doubtfully above Revan's right hand man. Considering the ease with Revan deals with Nyriss, and how grueling his battle with Malak was as per Drew's commentary, I really doubt that Nyriss could defeat Malak. If I had to rank things.

1. Vitiate
2. Revan
3. Malak
4. Nyriss
5. Exile
6. Scourge
7. Kreia
8. Sion

This is excluding bullshit like Nihilus' gigadrain. Why? Because that puts him firmly above everyone in the mythos and seems to have been retconned to an extent.

Using from powerscaling Star Forge Malak~Revan. No DS nexus has multiplied someones power. Its more of a percentage increase. So I really doubt Malak would get fodderized by Revan off the Star Forge.

Before people say 'Lul but Revan defeated him like 8 times'. Not necessarily. If we take every LS choice as canon, its more likely Revan freed them ala destroy droid force power (or electric judgement basically).

So, yeah. That's my two cents.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
and how is scourge during the revan novel better than malak? almost getting killed by a bounty hunter? And meetra was most likely weakened she was on dromund kaas, a dark side nexus, weakening here (to a high degree) while strengthening nyriss. I think the exile would beat nyriss on even terms. Also, Revan's opinion means nothing? Also, Traya is canonically stronger than Meetra I believe . I think Malak is perfectly capable of beating down sion 3-4 times, as meetra did. By what we know of them both, malak is physically stronger than meetra, has (arguably) a wider range of force abilities, and overall are probably equal in lightsaber combat. Meetra does have better feats, but we cannot solely judge our placement of a character based off of that. Example would be: Maul> The Daughter

Scourge isn't, probably. But Nyriss whooped his ass in lightsabers and the Force so she's way above him.

Maybe, but remember that she was weakened even more on Malachor V considering its a stronger nexus and has the Mass Shadow Generator. And she was still able to pwn the Trayas Academy and Sion (5+ times iirc) before beating Kreia twice. You think Malak could have done that shit? I don't. Not off the Star Forge at least.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Nihilus is a giant outlier as is Vitiate. The Exile is doubtfully above Revan's right hand man. Considering the ease with Revan deals with Nyriss, and how grueling his battle with Malak was as per Drew's commentary, I really doubt that Nyriss could defeat Malak. If I had to rank things.

1. Vitiate
2. Revan
3. Malak
4. Nyriss
5. Exile
6. Scourge
7. Kreia
8. Sion

This is excluding bullshit like Nihilus' gigadrain. Why? Because that puts him firmly above everyone in the mythos and seems to have been retconned to an extent.

Using from powerscaling Star Forge Malak~Revan. No DS nexus has multiplied someones power. Its more of a percentage increase. So I really doubt Malak would get fodderized by Revan off the Star Forge.

Before people say 'Lul but Revan defeated him like 8 times'. Not necessarily. If we take every LS choice as canon, its more likely Revan freed them ala destroy droid force power (or electric judgement basically).

So, yeah. That's my two cents.

Even excluding Nihilus' gigadrain he's above most of that list and certainly above Malak. He casually owned the Exile's team while starving and dragged the Ravager out of Malachor. This is the guy who consumed the energy of entire planets and nearly a hundred Jedi remember.

Even with the Star Forge I disagree Malak is equal to Revan. Drew said it was a tough fight but Revan had just fought through the Star Forge, Bastila and the room on continuously spawning battle droids to get to him and he did beat him multiple times. You say he could have freed them, but that too indicates large superiority imo since he'd have to do that while fighting Malak. Its not like he would allow him. He defeated him at least twice in a row, after fighting to get to him and while Malak was amped.

Therefore, logically Normal Malak is far below Revan. Dude has ****all to his name other than being the Dark Lord.

Also Kreia is said to be more powerful than the Exile. Meetra beat her through sheer skill. Sure she wasn't above Revan's right hand before Kotor 2, but after consuming the power of hundreds and everything else that elevated her during the game she surely is imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge isn't, probably. But Nyriss whooped his ass in lightsabers and the Force so she's way above him.

I think Malak is likely above Nyriss.



I think Malak could on a DS nexus. Portrayal wise, Malak seems to be superior to the Sith Triumvirate sans Nihilus. But Nihilus was pretty much the most powerful character in the mythos barring canon explicitly states the title goes to others.




That's because Nihilus is OP as ****.



Drew said it was a grueling battle actually. I personally think Revan mid-diffed the fodder on the Star Forge, low diffed Bastilla, and low diffed the droids. Also consider Revan was likely amped by Bastilla's battle meditation. Hell the most recent depiction of the fight even has Revan and Bastilla fighting Malak.



And giving Revan hell. Again you are leaving out Revan is amped on Bastilla's meditation at this point.



Aside from the ridiculous Giga-drain Kreia has shit all to her name as well. And if Kriea was more powerful than the Exile she would have won. Unless Kreia was holding back.

I agree with everything you just posted, except the kreia thing. she is stated to have been more powerful than the exile, but the exile had a glaring advantage in tactical acumen, plus the thing about kreia holding back.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Malak is likely above Nyriss.

I don't see why. He definitely wouldn't be able to own Meetra and Scourge the way Nyriss did imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Malak could on a DS nexus. Portrayal wise, Malak seems to be superior to the Sith Triumvirate sans Nihilus. But Nihilus was pretty much the most powerful character in the mythos barring canon explicitly states the title goes to others.

Well if he has to be on a DS nexus to do it then how is he superior to her when she did it with a DS nexus negatively effecting her?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's because Nihilus is OP as ****.

Damn straight.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/roushfan99/Star%20Wars%20Geocache/Star%20Wars%20Geocache/214410-142473-darth-nihilus_super.jpg



Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Drew said it was a grueling battle actually. I personally think Revan mid-diffed the fodder on the Star Forge, low diffed Bastilla, and low diffed the droids. Also consider Revan was likely amped by Bastilla's battle meditation. Hell the most recent depiction of the fight even has Revan and Bastilla fighting Malak.

Theres no mention of Bastila supporting Revan with Battle Meditation. She says she's going to support the fleet, not Revan. I see no reason to assume she was. Yes it was a tough battle, but Revan was still worn down from battle and Malak was amped and he still beat him multiple times. That in no way suggests parity to me.

Those depictions always made me facepalm. What, can Bioware not remember what happened in their own game?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And giving Revan hell. Again you are leaving out Revan is amped on Bastilla's meditation at this point.

Because he wasn't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aside from the ridiculous Giga-drain Kreia has shit all to her name as well. And if Kriea was more powerful than the Exile she would have won.

You mean other than being able to levitate and fight with 3 lightsabers, kill nearly a dozen Sith just by walking passed them, smack around the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, beat up the Ebon Hawk crew by herself, turn invisible or otherwise conceal her presence, read and affect minds and communicate telepathically across the galaxy with someone she's never even met?

She was more powerful than the Exile though. I believe its said in SWTORE at some point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unless Kreia was holding back.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2059/img-31.JPG

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see why. He definitely wouldn't be able to own Meetra and Scourge the way Nyriss did imo.

On a DS nexus I don't see why not.





I am not quite convinced on the Exile being superior to Malak.





So let me get this straight. Revan goes to fight the most powerful Sith in the known galaxy, and while Bastilla is boosting the power of thousands of Republic soldiers she elects to not help Revan? Sounds like bullshit to me. Also prove he was worn down. It's like arguing Kenobi and Skywalker were exhausted from fighting through the Invisible Hand.



Or its implies Revan had her help in another way. i.e. Battle Meditation.




So Bastilla while amping the Republic fleet was like '**** the man I love, he can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy with ease.' I think not. Also with recent depictions of Revan AND Bastilla fighting him together seems to me that she was helping him in some way.




1. Big deal, Vandar Tokare could do the same thing.
2. Featless Sith.
3. N-canon.
4. Neyophyte Jedi and non-force sensitives a credible feat does not make.
Also Malak would have been able to casually solo the Ebon Hawk Crew on the Leviathan. If they could have defeated Malak then they undoubtedly would have tried.



That just gives more evidence to the Kreia was holding back theory. That hurts your case not helps it.




Darth Traya who has lies and betrayal in her name. If a character statement is all you have you'll need more than that.

Yeah he has a point. Plus Revan's crew > Meetra's crew in this case, because the revan crew thing involved revan himself, whilst traya beat everyone but meetra. Anyways, with a DS nexus feeding malak and hampering meetra, he could most definitely beat her and scourge, who isn't too impressive in that novel, just as easily as Nyriss did.

What do you peeps think on the actual battle tho?

Malak is likely to get beaten in pure light saber dueling.

If we go by feats Malak loses all. But if we go by hype/powerscaling based on the Revan fight (which I think should have been the prologue to the Revan novel), then Malak may take force and all out.

Talking about overall battle though, not just pure lightsaber dueling.

Edit: yeah I think malak can win force, due to a wider variety of abilities to keep luke off-balance, plus malak is physically stronger, although Luke is probably faster. In terms of a saber duel, Luke wins, but I think malak would put up a damn good fight.

There's a ship that's flying outside in the boss fight vs Malak in KotoR

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
There's a ship that's flying outside in the boss fight vs Malak in KotoR
Oh goody, Revan and Malak's first speed feats

Luke outdueled Vader because he turned to anger. No guarantee he does that vs Malak. But I do think he'll outduel Malak but all Malak has to do his just FL to submission.

pretty sure Luke can block it with his saber :/

I didn't read the 50 million comics but I'm going to wager that Luke was preparing for a fight with Vader who cannot use force lightning than coming up with defensive techniques against it. I'm not even sure Luke is even aware of such a technique otherwise he wouldn't have you know, thrown his lightsaber away against the Emperor.

And using logic like that then there's no purpose of using force lighting at all. :/:/:/:/:/:/:/

I suppose you're right about the first point, but there is nothing wrong with the logic I used. The more powerful the force user the more powerful the lightning. I don't think malak has what it takes to overwhelm Luke's lightsaber defense with his lightning, although I suppose Luke didn't really know of such a technique. I still don't think that's the be-all end-all of the fight, as luke has resisted palpatine's lightning for a good amount of time, and palpatine's lightning >>>malak's lightning.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
On a DS nexus I don't see why not.

And I see nothing indicating that he would. Nothing he's done puts him on that level. The Exile and Scourge are incredibly power and skilled combatants. What makes you think Malak could own them both simultaneously?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not quite convinced on the Exile being superior to Malak.

The Exile has actual feats backing her up for one thing. She solod an entire Sith academy on a powerful DS nexus and with the MSG, then beat Sion 5+ times and Kreia twice. She has an incredibly fast learning rate and is proficient in 4+ forms plus battle precognition. She becomes a superior telepath to Kreia in a single training session.

Malak? He has nothing. Lightsaber combat? He's got ****all. The Exile has better lightsaber feats than him, at least we know about her skills and her learning rate suggests huge skill. The Force? The Exile already beat a more powerful person than Malak in the form of Kreia. Whats Malak gonna do that Kreia couldn't?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So let me get this straight. Revan goes to fight the most powerful Sith in the known galaxy, and while Bastilla is boosting the power of thousands of Republic soldiers she elects to not help Revan? Sounds like bullshit to me. Also prove he was worn down. It's like arguing Kenobi and Skywalker were exhausted from fighting through the Invisible Hand.

She's just gotten the piss beaten out of her by Revan (three times iirc). Theres nothing indicating she would be able to boost Revan and the fleet at the same time in her condition.

Kenobi and Skywalker barely fought on the Invisible Hand, while Malak sends legions of Sith and Star Forge droids to beat Revan. Then he has to beat Bastila 3 times, who mentions Revan's tired btw:

glevXwfrLdg

2.20

Then he has to fight that room of constantly spawning droids, which I doubt he just walked through.

Also note that Bastila specifically says she's using her Battle Meditation to aid the Republic fleet and says that Revan doesn't need her to beat Malak.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or its implies Revan had her help in another way. i.e. Battle Meditation.

It doesn't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So Bastilla while amping the Republic fleet was like '**** the man I love, he can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy with ease.' I think not. Also with recent depictions of Revan AND Bastilla fighting him together seems to me that she was helping him in some way.

What, do you think that image is meant to be some kind of metaphor?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Big deal, Vandar Tokare could do the same thing.

That doesn't mean its not impressive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. Featless Sith.

As Sith assassins they feed off nearby Force sensistives, which Kreia is, increasing their power. Their strength is dependent on Kreias.

Plus it doesn't matter. Kiling 12 Sith with a single attack without even gesturing is hugely impressive no matter how powerful they are. But considering they're in the Trayas Academy and guarding the Trayas Core I hardly think they were shit. Also the fact that they could stand around normally with the MSG indicates some strength.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. N-canon.

She does it in the game too, just not to the same extent:

4IUHYmgb2xE

3.10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
4. Neyophyte Jedi and non-force sensitives a credible feat does not make.
Also Malak would have been able to casually solo the Ebon Hawk Crew on the Leviathan. If they could have defeated Malak then they undoubtedly would have tried.

Malak didn't beat the Ebon Hawk though. So there no point bringing up that he could and there no indication he could do it casually either.

Plus HK-47 and Mandalore were on the Exiles team.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That just gives more evidence to the Kreia was holding back theory. That hurts your case not helps it.

No it doesn't. It just means the Exile is that good of a fighter.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Traya who has lies and betrayal in her name. If a character statement is all you have you'll need more than that.

Lol, no I don't. Its your theory and theres nothing supporting it. I don't need to prove anything, the fact that she flat out says she won't hold back just proves she wasn't beyond any doubt, when theres no reason to doubt in the first place.

The Traya holding back theory has never been anything other than Exile-hate posing as an idea. People just don't want to accept that the Exile is legitimately powerful. It has no basis in fact whatsoever. Anyone who has actually played the game knows that Kreia holding back is anathema to her philosophy. She believes that truly helping someone is to allow them to sort out problems by their own power, because otherwise they do not truly grow. She specifically says that holding back and allowing the Exile to kill her would make everything the Exile has achieved meaningless. She says that the Exile surpassing her has rewarded her more than anything else could have.

If she though she had to allow her perfect student to kill her she never would have been that into her in the first place. It would betray everything she believes in.

about the tired thing: you honestly don't think revan would be fully prepared, physically and mentally, to fight the most powerful sith lord in the known galaxy? It's like when people say revan woulda beaten vitiate, had he better prepared himself. I'm pretty sure bastila was probably amping revan in some way, as there have been said image(s), plus the fact that bastila loved revan and wanted to help him as best as possible, I don't see why she wouldn't try to help him, especially with their special force bond. Plus there's the possibility she was still being amped by the star forge. Also note she says that she would be corrupted in the presence of malak, and only certain especially powerful beings have been shown to do so (yes he was receiving star forge amp, but it still shows he commands a great deal of power nonetheless). Hell the fact that malak can even control the star forge, and even get it to work 300% faster than expectations, show his (implied) power.

I don't think Revan had the luxury of being fully prepared or well rested. Malak sent his forces out specifically to wear Revan down and tire him and Bastila notes that Revan is tired. He has to fight to get to him. You'd have to be delusional to think Revan wouldn't be weary after all he has to fight to even get to Malak.

And you don't think Revan can heal his weariness? Hell, when Revan was on a darkside nexus, he got blasted by vitiate's powerful force lightning storm, and was back up in seconds.

Jedi aren't gods. They do not have limitless stamina or power.

again, is revan incapable of healing his wounds/weariness? We don't actually know how many dark jedi/droids he fought on the star forge, or even which companions he brought with him, or how much it tired him

He can to an extent but that draws off his power reserves, so he is still diminished.

He had just fought through legions of Sith and dorids... Obviously, he would have been worn down.

Also, exactly how much energy does the star forge really give malak? I thought he had to actually use his own power to control it, and that most of the power was directed towards the creation of the fleet. this meaning that he was only really being replenished from the jedi masters, which revan freed. Again, we don't actually know how much fodder revan killed, which companions he brought with him, how many companions he brought with him, etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I see nothing indicating that he would. Nothing he's done puts him on that level. The Exile and Scourge are incredibly power and skilled combatants. What makes you think Malak could own them both simultaneously?

Giving the person who casually owned her hell.




Prove she didn't just sneak through the academy. She only beat Kreia once. It was one battle Kreia didn't get healed. Okay so she's a prodigy. Big deal Malak was the 2nd most promising knight of the era.



Defeat Darth Nyriss for one.




You are grasping a straws here.
When someone uses Battle Meditation it affects everyone on the battlefield. Show me one time when BM has been used where it boosted an entire fleet/army but didn't boost one or two individuals.



>Character statements are hardly credible evidence, especially from Bastilla who is pitifully trying to use Dun Moch.
>You keep citing Revan's exhaustion when he fought Malak when its mentioned in no sources but you fail to mention that Revan was still recovering from being drugged and a sensory overload.



Just played that part yesterday. You literally can just walk through.



In one dialogue option if you say why don't you come with me which for all we know is n-canon.


Oh okay so Revan and Bastilla both fought Malak?




Right so you have no proof. Do you even have proof they were force sensitives?




>Says she does it in the unmodified game
>Posts link where the masters clearly have on modded clothing and Lonna Vash is in it.
>allmylols



Malak



So?
Revan's team:
Master Bindo
Knight Juhani
Knight Bastilla
Revan
Canderous
HK-47
Mission
Zaalbar
T3-M4

4 Jedi, the soon to be Mandalore, and HK-47 would have been stomped by Malak.




Prove she fought them all.




Right after she states how much she loves the Exile and how she is literally the culmination of everything she's worked for in destroying the force.




Exile hate? People don't hate the Exile they just recognized that she got retconned to sidekick levels.


Here's the problem with your theory. Kriea would say anything to manipulate the Exile to her precise purpose. So her credibility is completely and utterly non-existent.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi aren't gods. They do not have limitless stamina or power.

Revan wasn't in peak condition when he pwned Nyriss either. A fact you seem to omit. Hell at least Revan was conscious five minutes before he dueled Malak.

Don't care.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Giving the person who casually owned her hell.

On the Star Forge. While amped. And able to Regenerate. With his opponent tired. And he lost. Multiple times.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove she didn't just sneak through the academy. She only beat Kreia once. It was one battle Kreia didn't get healed. Okay so she's a prodigy. Big deal Malak was the 2nd most promising knight of the era.

The Sith assassins can sense Force users through their ability, so she couldn't have sneaked passed them. Plus they know shes there since they greet her at the entrance. She beat Kreia twice. Once when she cut off her remaining hand and then again when Kreia TK's the 3 lightsabers.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Defeat Darth Nyriss for one.

HahahahNO.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are grasping a straws here.
When someone uses Battle Meditation it affects everyone on the battlefield. Show me one time when BM has been used where it boosted an entire fleet/army but didn't boost one or two individuals.

You're grasping for straws. Theres nothing indicating she was using BM on him. It is purely your speculation that she was. She herself says she isn't and that Revan doesn't need her to beat Malak.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
>Character statements are hardly credible evidence, especially from Bastilla who is pitifully trying to use Dun Moch.
>You keep citing Revan's exhaustion when he fought Malak when its mentioned in no sources but you fail to mention that Revan was still recovering from being drugged and a sensory overload.

>Theres no point saying he's tired if he isn't. What, is she trying to trick him into thinking he is? Lmao. "Well I don't feel tired, but Bastila says so..." She says she can sense it. Its unlikely Jedi senses would be wrong.
> I don't fvcking care.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Just played that part yesterday. You literally can just walk through.

My Revan was fighting with the Incredible Hulk and I still found it a *****.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In one dialogue option if you say why don't you come with me which for all we know is n-canon.

If its a dialogue option then its canon you dork.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh okay so Revan and Bastilla both fought Malak?

No, its an idiotic picture thats non-canon.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right so you have no proof. Do you even have proof they were force sensitives?

Are you ****ing serious?

They are standing in the center of a Sith temple dressed in Sith robes equipped with lightsabers. Do you think they're the ****ing janitors?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
>Says she does it in the unmodified game
>Posts link where the masters clearly have on modded clothing and Lonna Vash is in it.
>allmylols

Argh, so gay.

Co6f55ZlHN4

fmLJZJ9qOHU

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-89.JPG

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-90.JPG

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2047/img-95.JPG

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Malak

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-thumbsup.gif


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So?
Revan's team:
Master Bindo
Knight Juhani
Knight Bastilla
Revan
Canderous
HK-47
Mission
Zaalbar
T3-M4

4 Jedi, the soon to be Mandalore, and HK-47 would have been stomped by Malak.

So they're impressive combatants that she actually beat for real and not just imaginarily.

Also Jolee was just a padawan iirc. He was at least not a Master. He was never formally promoted.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove she fought them all.

Uh, fought who?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right after she states how much she loves the Exile and how she is literally the culmination of everything she's worked for in destroying the force.

So what, that doesn't contradict what I said. As per her philosophy, her loving her just means she'd fight her even harder.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Exile hate? People don't hate the Exile they just recognized that she got retconned to sidekick levels.

The theory has been around way before Revan came out. People have always said she was holding back because they don't want her to look equal to Revan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Here's the problem with your theory. Kriea would say anything to manipulate the Exile to her precise purpose. So her credibility is completely and utterly non-existent.

No she wouldn't. She doesn't lie in that entire final exchange. Theres no point. Why would she want the Exile to kill her if not to surpass her? The theory makes no sense on any conceivable level to anyone with even a basic grasp of Kreia's character.

In fact, I have my own theory: Malak was totally holding back on his former bestest buddy.

I have absolutely no proof for this theory and it is in no way supported by anything but it is totally legit guys! Malak was just lying when he said he wanted to kill Revan, because he's a Sith, so we can't trust anything he says. He even shows regret in his final dialogue proving he was conflicted and obviously holding back. And unlike Kriea, he doesn't specifically deny that he was holding back and possess a philosophy that makes such a possibility completely laughable, so its even more likelilier than the Kreia theory.

Going with Luke, but not easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't care.

So? Nyriss while amped, with her opponent amped got one-shotted by Revan.




That's the same battle. Kreia didn't rejuvenate herself after that.




Yup. Malak's performance against Revan>>>>>>Nyriss'



Show me one other instance of BM not affecting everyone in the vicinity. Oh wait there isn't one. +If you really want to pull that card Revan is a part of the Republic Fleet.





>Someone doesn't understand Dun Moch.


Concession accepted.



No, like the door at the end of the room isn't even locked/ has a low level security that you can hack through. I remember because I was like '**** this' and tried to open the door.




No that's not how that works. Unless you have proof that's the pure LS version.




It's actually C-canon unless they said otherwise.





No they could be, oh I dunno apprentices?



You've shown me nothing I don't already know. She force pushes them once, and pushes Vrook once more. Big deal.







The Council offered him the position of Knight to which he refused. So I guess he's technically a padawan.



George Clooney, the entire fvcking temple that's who.



The philosophy she told the Exile while manipulating her? Prove she was even telling the truth about that philosophy. And even then wasn't manipulating the Exile to be stronger.



Or perhaps it is you who does not grasp Kreia's character. The Exile did not need to surpass Kreia in order to plausibly destroy the Force. Which is Kreia's super objective.
If the Exile dies, Kreia's entire plan falls to shit.
Even if she was not consciously holding back, it seems doubtful at best that someone's subconscious would allow them to annihilate their philosophical dream.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In fact, I have my own theory: Malak was totally holding back on his former bestest buddy.

I have absolutely no proof for this theory and it is in no way supported by anything but it is totally legit guys! Malak was just lying when he said he wanted to kill Revan, because he's a Sith, so we can't trust anything he says. He even shows regret in his final dialogue proving he was conflicted and obviously holding back. And unlike Kriea, he doesn't specifically deny that he was holding back and possess a philosophy that makes such a possibility completely laughable, so its even more likelilier than the Kreia theory.

*more likely

The intentional misspelling is supposed to invoke an air of stupidity, heightening the farcical nature of the text.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The intentional misspelling is supposed to invoke an air of stupidity

You don't have to misspell a word to invoke an air of stupidity.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The intentional misspelling is supposed to invoke an air of stupidity, heightening the farcical nature of the text.

The noting of the misspelling, and the correction of such was to be dismissive and sarcastic of towards your bad joke.

Taking your point as an actual correction was likewise merely a joke, acting as if you were truly that anal and concerned with grammar, in order to be dismissive about your dismissiveness.

Everything is according to MY design.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You don't have to misspell a word to invoke an air of stupidity.

I know. The concept is so stupid it was a bit irrelevant. But a little too much is better than too little as my pappy used to say.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know. The concept is so stupid it was a bit irrelevant. But a little too much is better than too little as my pappy used to say.

Your pappy told me you are a colossal disappointment with a small penis.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Taking your point as an actual correction was likewise merely a joke, acting as if you were truly that anal and concerned with grammar, in order to be dismissive about your dismissiveness.

My mimicking of your pitiful sentence structure was me mocking you.

To quote you:





Pappy didn't tell you he dropped you as a child.

Wow, you guys are harsh. Don't bring my pappy into this you bastards. He'd kick your ass.

I brought this into your pappy.

*grabs crotch*

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, you guys are harsh. Don't bring my pappy into this you bastards. He'd kick your ass.

I've got your pappy right here
*grabs crotch*

so has anyone conceded yet?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So? Nyriss while amped, with her opponent amped got one-shotted by Revan.

Actually she one-shot herself.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's the same battle. Kreia didn't rejuvenate herself after that.

They stop and talk. You can't really call it the same fight when theres a break in between.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yup. Malak's performance against Revan>>>>>>Nyriss'

Nope.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Show me one other instance of BM not affecting everyone in the vicinity. Oh wait there isn't one. +If you really want to pull that card Revan is a part of the Republic Fleet.

But Revan isn't a part of the Republic fleet. He's on the Star Forge, completely seperate from the fleet. Theres no indication Bastila's BM extended to the Forge and the fleet. She only says she's using it on the fleet. Anything else is baseless supposition.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
>Someone doesn't understand Dun Moch.

> Someone doesn't understandd basic logic. Theres no point for her to lie about it. It wouldn't wear Revan down, if he wasn't tired he'd just be like:

"No I'm not. I feel fine."

"No no, you're tired."

"Actually, I think I can probably still beat you a few more times. Then still have enough in the tank to sit on Malaks neck, like, four times in a row. Wow, this'll be easy!"

"Noooooo. Noooo you're tired. Shut uuuuuup. Tiiiiiired!"

"Fancy a shag?"

(My headcanon Revan is british)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Concession accepted.

oh no

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, like the door at the end of the room isn't even locked/ has a low level security that you can hack through. I remember because I was like '**** this' and tried to open the door.

Great, so Revan was fighting never-ending robots while fighting Malak too? Man, he must have facestomped that bald prick!

(this is a joke, Revan didn't slice the door while fighting robots obvs)

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No that's not how that works. Unless you have proof that's the pure LS version.

Oh really? I wasn't aware you were an authority on canon now? That must be so cool.

Its canon. If its in the script its canon as long as it doesn't contradict anything else.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's actually C-canon unless they said otherwise.

No it isn't. It contradicts the actual game and is non-canon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they could be, oh I dunno apprentices?

Because they're dressed as Sith Assassins. And they can turn invisible and resist the MSG so they're obviously not noobs.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You've shown me nothing I don't already know. She force pushes them once, and pushes Vrook once more. Big deal.

Smacking 3 Jedi Masters around is a big deal, yes.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Council offered him the position of Knight to which he refused. So I guess he's technically a padawan.

Ok.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
George Clooney, the entire fvcking temple that's who.

But we were talking about her fighting Kreia?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The philosophy she told the Exile while manipulating her? Prove she was even telling the truth about that philosophy. And even then wasn't manipulating the Exile to be stronger.

Only if you prove Malak actually wanted to kill Revan.

Theres no reason for her to lie about it. She keeps up with it even after she's revealed and theres no more point to lie.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or perhaps it is you who does not grasp Kreia's character. The Exile did not need to surpass Kreia in order to plausibly destroy the Force. Which is Kreia's super objective.
If the Exile dies, Kreia's entire plan falls to shit.
Even if she was not consciously holding back, it seems doubtful at best that someone's subconscious would allow them to annihilate their philosophical dream.

Or perhaps you don't grasp the actual plot of the game.

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-36.JPG

"It will deafen all touched by the Force, until no life is left. You were strong enough to withstand it once - but few have your strength in such matters, especially if they are unprepared."

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-37.JPG

"But if Kreia is Sith, why would she do such a thing?"

"She seeks the death of all Jedi, all Sith... and the death of the Force. It is madness, it is impossible - but she believes you are the key. There are places in the galaxy dead to the Force, where nothing lives - where the echoes travel forever and do not reach their destination. And these places may be created, even from the simplest of events, the slightest of motions."


Kreia's plan is to kill the Exile at the core of Malachor to create a ripple through the Force to kill it.

What, did you think her plan was to die and then the Exile would kill the Force..... somehow? No.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually she one-shot herself.

No. That was Revan.




So Yoda vs. Sidious wasn't one fight? And Vader vs. Luke? And even Skywalker vs. Dooku?





Yup. Revan AT BEST was at a comparable position when he fought Nyriss and yet he lowediffed her and high diffed Malak.




The Forge





O rly?

"Your powers are weak old man."
Said Vader as Kenobi fought him to an impasse. Its called weakening your resolve. If I am fighting someone and I am a bit tired and they are like "You're tired, and weak." Then yeah for some that's a bit of a demoralizer.





Oh really? I wasn't aware you were an authority on canon now? That must be so cool.




Show me this in the offical Lucasarts policy on canon.




Bullshit the game and the databank are the same level of canon. In fact because the holorecords are more recent, the game should technically be take as n-canon.




Or they just have a cloaking device. Prove they used the force to turn invisible.



So smacking 3 Coleman Trebors around is a big deal?



Right and you were saying she was tired from fighting through the temple already.



Aside from sending out 2 waves of battledroids, every Dark Jedi and Sith on the station, as well as his apprentice. Not to mention Malak never states he loves Revan, or calls Revan beautiful, nor is LS Revan the embodiment of what he dreams of.


Unless she believes it will lead the Exile to creating more holes in the force.





I am sorry what? How would killing the Exile on Malachor V kill the force. You are talking out of your ass her buddy.

And yes. The Exile would continue to kill, and battle, and the hole in the force would grow until it consumed the galaxy. That's what I thought.

Both Atris and Kreia mention worlds "dead in the force". I wonder if they've been on Nathema, or if the writers accidentally alluded to it. And if so, how many worlds did Vitiate allegedly drain?

you know what I just thought of? Scourge, who was nearly slain by a bounty hunter (on a DS nexus), was said in the book to be an equal of Meetra. This is shown after Meetra kills murtog, it says if they fought there would be no clear victor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No. That was Revan.

No it was purely Nyriss' own power that defeated her. All Revan did was redirect it back at her. There is no indication that Revan himself could defeat her in one attack like that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So Yoda vs. Sidious wasn't one fight? And Vader vs. Luke? And even Skywalker vs. Dooku?

Wha? Yoda and Sidious didn't stop the duel to talk for a bit in the middle. If you're talking about Sidious gloating after knocking out Yoda that isn't a break in the fighting, Sidious was merely taking his time. Vader vs Luke also, Vader is searching for Luke and to kill him. Anakin and Dooku could technically count as one fight since the combat continued with Dooku vs Kenobi even after he got knocked out.

In the Exile vs Kreia fights, they fight until the Exile is able to cut off Kreia's hand. Then they extinguish their lightsabers and talk until the fight starts up again. Then the Exile has to beat her again. Two distinct confrontations.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yup. Revan AT BEST was at a comparable position when he fought Nyriss and yet he lowediffed her and high diffed Malak.

Thats an extremely narrow and blind reading of events. The only reason Revan won so easily is because Nyriss used an attack powerful to one-shot herself which Revan redirected to her.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Forge

Wow, you really need to be more careful when typing your replies up.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
O rly?

"Your powers are weak old man."
Said Vader as Kenobi fought him to an impasse. Its called weakening your resolve. If I am fighting someone and I am a bit tired and they are like "You're tired, and weak." Then yeah for some that's a bit of a demoralizer.

Concession accepted.

So yeah, Revan was tired. Theres no reason to doubt Bastila. In your example Kenobi was weak, as confirmed by Lucas.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh really? I wasn't aware you were an authority on canon now? That must be so cool.

It is cool. I'm always cool. But I think you mucked up your reply again.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda


Show me this in the offical Lucasarts policy on canon.

The only thing that isn't canon are in the case of branching events that are conflicting in terms of alignment. In terms of quests the best outcome is taken as the canonically one. In terms of what is said all options are ambiguous and thus all are canon as possibilities. If it was written by the writer and is in the game then you'd have to be an idiot to assume it isn't canon unless is has to do with one of the explicitly canon choices. The only times something is non-canon is when it conflicts with something that is.

The writer wrote it. Its in the game. It doesn't contradict any canonical event. Its canon.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bullshit the game and the databank are the same level of canon. In fact because the holorecords are more recent, the game should technically be take as n-canon.

The game is the primary source and as such is the absolute canonical version of events. A picture cannot overwrite the actual ****ing game no more than drawing Jacen blond could overwrite his hair color being brown. Its a mistake and it should be taken as such.

If you read the Wookieeedia page on the Duel on the Star Forge you can see at the bottom that one of the developers confirms it as non-canon.

Things being labeled C-canon and T-canon and such based on being games are not complete rules, only what they generally fall into.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or they just have a cloaking device. Prove they used the force to turn invisible.

They aren't shown wearing stealth field generators on their models or in the artwork depicting them and their description in the KotOR campaign guide says they can turn invisible.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So smacking 3 Coleman Trebors around is a big deal?

They were Jedi Council Members who survived 2 wars. Vrook and Kavar display the ability to freeze whole rooms with the Force and Porn Stache smacked people around with a powerful Force Wave. Theres no indication they were shit.

And yes, overpowering 3 Coleman Trebors at the same time is still a big deal.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right and you were saying she was tired from fighting through the temple already.

Well Kreia's at the very center of the Academy and you need to fight through it to get to her. I mean, you only really need to fight through one of two ways but it isn't as if the rest of the Sith aren't going to hear or sense you fighting a few rooms away. Also Sion specifically tells the Sith to prepare for the Exile.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aside from sending out 2 waves of battledroids, every Dark Jedi and Sith on the station, as well as his apprentice. Not to mention Malak never states he loves Revan, or calls Revan beautiful, nor is LS Revan the embodiment of what he dreams of.

And Kreia sets up Atris and Nihilus to fight the Exile as well as the Trayas Academy and Sion. Revan was his best friend. Obviously he'd be subconsciously holding back on him. I mean come on.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unless she believes it will lead the Exile to creating more holes in the force.

The Exile doesn't create holes in the Force.


Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am sorry what? How would killing the Exile on Malachor V kill the force. You are talking out of your ass her buddy.

And yes. The Exile would continue to kill, and battle, and the hole in the force would grow until it consumed the galaxy. That's what I thought.

Urgh, looks like you need the rest of the dialogue to help you through:

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-35.JPG

"What I started?"

"Yes, you are an echo in the Force, a hollow space where it has been wounded. It takes a great act of destruction to create such emptiness, but it can be done. It creates places where the Force is difficult to hear, and difficult to find one's way. And you carry it with you, always."

"What does this have to do with Kreia?"

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-36.JPG

"It will deafen all touched by the Force, until no life is left. You were strong enough to withstand it once - but few have your strength in such matters, especially if they are unprepared."

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-37.JPG

"But if Kreia is Sith, why would she do such a thing?"

"She seeks the death of all Jedi, all Sith... and the death of the Force. It is madness, it is impossible - but she believes you are the key. There are places in the galaxy dead to the Force, where nothing lives - where the echoes travel forever and do not reach their destination. And these places may be created, even from the simplest of events, the slightest of motions."

"Who is Kreia?"

http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2049/img-39.JPG

How is that possible?"

"Because she has gone to Malachor. She is waiting for you there. But you will not survive Telos. Nothing will."


Translation: She's gone to Malachor to create a new wound that will ripple outwards. She explains how this is possible on Nar Shaddaa just like Atris does above. It takes an act of destruction to do it. What act of destruction could she do other than kill the Exile, whose life is bound by so many and who carries so much inside her? Who is tied to Malachor? And if the Exile doesn't go she'll kill herself and the Exile. Atris says that Kreia can do this specifically because she's on Malachor. So your idea doesn't make sense since since the Exile growing and creating new wounds wouldn't happen on Malachor.

Her plan is to perform an act of destruction on Malachor that can only be done on Malachor and she needs to lure the Exile, who is spiritually tied to Malachor and all the death there, to Malachor to do it. Do the math.

That image of Revan and Bastilla confronting Malak simultaneously represents the viewpoint of Jedi historian Gnost Dural.

Yes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
-snip-

Concession accepted, pleb.

Sure, I guess I'll accept your surrender. I mean, theres not really a way you can reply to me anyway without looking stupid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, I guess I'll accept your surrender. I mean, theres not really a way you can reply to me anyway without looking stupid.

Expect my response within the next couple of hours.

Hahahaha.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hahahaha.

Concession accepted
http://i.imgur.com/hukoWnJ.png

I'm not really sure if Lucas's comments about ANH Kenobi vs ANH Vader being "a hard fight" for them both because they're both "Old Jedi" still holds, as those comments were pre AOTC I believe, when we have 80 year old plus Dooku making a fool of the "young" Kenobi.

Besides which after ROTS Lucas confirmed Post Mustafar Vader to be on the level of Maul/Dooku. (Perhaps closer to Maul in the earlier Empire days, then closer to Dooker towards the OT?)

Will be interesting to see if the upcoming animation "Rebels" shows the power levels of Post Mustafar Vader and Kenobi.

I think we can all at least agree that Reven and TOR screwed up all of this.