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Where would you rank him on earth based on combat showings? I know everyone and their mom in the comics keeps saying he's at the top, but personally, I don't think so. He hasn't won a physical confrontation against a peer...well...at all yet as far as I can remember. Either it's a character he should stomp and he does, or he just gets stomped himself, or wins in a different manner. Thoughts?

Don't get me wrong, based on feats he's up there, I just don't think you can call him #1 with a straight face at this point. top 3 most likely.

I would consider him, Orion, Adam, and Wondy all peers. Indont think his showings is as bad as you are saying that it is. Who should he have stomped that he fought?

Originally posted by carver9
I would consider him, Orion, Adam, and Wondy all peers. Indont think his showings is as bad as you are saying that it is. Who should he have stomped that he fought?



Orion, Adam, WW without bracers are top Heralds. Like Thor, SS and WBH.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime


Orion, Adam, WW without bracers are top Heralds. Like Thor, SS and Savage Hulk.

Slight correction.

Originally posted by carver9
Slight correction.

I will slight correct your face sneer

Batman and Carver, get a room you 2.

He's top dog imo.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Don't get me wrong, based on feats he's up there, I just don't think you can call him #1 with a straight face at this point. top 3 most likely.

His new powers are sick. He can do whatever he wants just like he always could

Carver, I don't think he should stomp his peers. I was saying that he should beat them in a fight, or at least look better than them, not stomp them. The people he's beaten he really shouldn't have much trouble with anyway. When it comes to his peers he either straight up loses, or comes out looking worse than them. There isn't anything wrong with that in and of itself, but then DC should stop have everyone giving him unfounded lip service. He hasn't done anything to prove he's #1, but everyone keeps calling him #1. All i'm saying is I want to actually be shown why he's the best, instead of just being told it.

What fights are you talking about though? He usually does well in his fights and for the most part, he is winning. Its the enemies he's facing...majority of them take plot to beat them. I think DC is showing him a lot of praise...a LOT of praise. He has losses but who doesn't, its part of being a hero. IMO, this Superman is a beast (can't wait to see his fight against Wraith).

Well, the predator looking dude made him look silly, the shadow cat like lady owned him, Orion looked better in their fight, He-man owned him, Hel'spont one shotted him and then had a harder time with a street level character, he got stomped more times than i can count recently in psy war, his big enemy in Superman unchained made him look like a child, there was a ghost or something that he and Batman were dealing with in an extra story at the end of issues that owned him, etc. That is just off the top of my head.

Really, DC seems to be using him as a tool to show how awesome the newest big threat or hero character is. What's the best way to give something instant Cred? Say that Supes is the most powerful being on earth, and then have something stomp him. Writing! I get the feeling that this trend will continue in the Superman/Wonderwoman comic. You can bet Supes and Wondy will fight, and when they do Wondy will remark on Supes being ultra powerful and then proceed to beat him because they are making a big deal about him not knowing how to fight in that comic.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Well, the predator looking dude made him look silly, the shadow cat like lady owned him, Orion looked better in their fight, He-man owned him, Hel'spont one shotted him and then had a harder time with a street level character, he got stomped more times than i can count recently in psy war, his big enemy in Superman unchained made him look like a child, there was a ghost or something that he and Batman were dealing with in an extra story at the end of issues that owned him, etc. That is just off the top of my head.

Really, DC seems to be using him as a tool to show how awesome the newest big threat or hero character is. What's the best way to give something instant Cred? Say that Supes is the most powerful being on earth, and then have something stomp him. Writing! I get the feeling that this trend will continue in the Superman/Wonderwoman comic. You can bet Supes and Wondy will fight, and when they do Wondy will remark on Supes being ultra powerful and then proceed to beat him because they are making a big deal about him not knowing how to fight in that comic. Being used as a tool to showcase how awesome the new threat happens to every top dog character. It is lazy writting and it can get annoying when they overdo it, but it doesn't stay with the characters. I mean look how beastly Thor is nowadays when a year or 2 ago he was getting knocked the **** out by everyone and their mama. Same thing happened to Savage Hulk. It is happening to Superman now, but he is still getting his fair share of feats and he does tend to fight a higher level of opponents. 5D Imps, H'el, Helspont etc.

Yeah, I know, Supes is where Thor was yet a year or 2 ago. I can't wait for it to end though, haha. IMO they haven't done a good job of establishing why Supes is the toughest yet. His feats are good, they just need to have him win some fights.

He's beaten plenty of people so far, though...

Yeah, I mean he needs to beat people who are a bit more impressive. He doesn't need to go around and stomp everyone, just a few more in the win column against impressive foes. Like if he manages to beat H'el or Helspont, that would go a long way. Or if he manages to beat his newest foe in Unchained. Or if he has a fight with Wondy and he wins/looks better. Or if he beats He-man in the next issue of that crossover.

He just needs to look better against tougher opposition IMO.

I think he's done as well as can be expected, given the amount of powerful enemies he's face.

I get that you don't agree, I just... I dunno, I feel like it's too early to be expecting to see him fight the likes of Diana or Adam, and the like.

I see what you're saying, and I do kinda agree. I guess I just kinda don't like the whole Lip Service part. I know that at some point he must have won some tough fights to get the title of #1 on the planet, I just want to see those things. It really boils down to wanting them to show it more than just saying it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they've done poorly, this is just something I think could use a bit of improvement.

You didn't like his showings in Action? Or when he fought that giant world killer in Superman and tanked a magical blast?

I have to say, I did enjoy him tanking the magical blast. I don't know, maybe I'm being overly negative, or focusing on the negative side more, but it does seem like his negatives get a ton more focus on the vs. boards than his positives. This is likely due to a few of the more vocal members who clearly have an anti Supes agenda, but it still rankles to see his every low point be the subject of 10 different vs threads.

One thing I don't see get enough play, and one of my personal favorites, is when he was ground pounding H'el and the whole planet was shaking from the punches. That's just insane punching power.

Yeah, and people try to downplay that still, sadly.

Indeed, and you just know that those same people would be trumpeting the feat to the heavens if their favorite character had done it. All because of the text describing mountains. It really is frustrating. What is it about Superman that just gets under people's skin so much?

The ammount of spotlight he gets. Hulk is now on the same boat.

Man, I'm hoping that Supes pounds the crap out of H'el in this next event. It kinda seems like they're hinting at it, dare I hope? lol

I don't know guys...the poor showings just keep coming. Seriously, Superman loses more than anyone else I've read in the Nu52 so far. They are constantly making him get beat or pounded on. The Russian and US armies can take him out anytime they want, easily too I might add. They had Wraith shield Supes from gunfire with Wraith talking about how Supes couldn't handle it. That is just insulting. It's iconic to have Superman no sell gunshots. What they did there was a slap in the face. Yes, I know that they are red sun amped bullets, I don't care. Writers need to stop going for shock value by having Supes lose or get hurt badly by things. It's seriously not shocking any more, and now I and many others have come to expect it.

They had Supes struggle lifting a small boat in Superman/WonderWoman. They had Supes struggle and need help with a SAILBOAT in Action Comics zero year. I don't care that he's young there. I don't care that he was tired. Having him need HELP...to LIFT something so small...from a NORMAL HUMAN...is terrible.

Seriously, how often does Batman straight up lose in Nu52? Like once or twice? How often has WonderWoman straight up lost? Again, like twice? Superman has more loses and more embarassing showings than any other character in the NU52. In one of the latest issues of Superman he said there was no way he could survive a blast from kryptonian weapon. How often do you hear Thor say there is no way he could survive something? Or Silver Surfer?

So, what are his good showings? Where are they? What are they? He tagged flash. He pushed Darkseid for a second before getting overwhelmed. He pounded on a young Hal. He lifted the world basically for 5 days. He hit H'el so hard that the earth shook. He kinda tanked a magical blast, but it still knocked him out.

Those are all great feats. But what else is there? Those feats are seriously getting overshadowed by lower end feats and loses. Seriously, for every good feat he has, I can name 4 low end feats and loses. He seriously doesn't seem that super any more. It takes away from the mystique of the character when you see him on his back so much. It also takes away from the shock of seeing him get beaten when it pretty much happens in every issue of every single one of his comics.

Above all, I hate it when they constantly refer to Superman as the most powerful being around--and treat his power with that kind of awe. But then they have a strong of characters that show up that are more powerful than him: H'el, Helspont, Darkseid (at least seemingly), Wraith, Doomsday, possibly MM, maybe WW without bracers, etc. Even Orion fought him evenly, though Superman seemed more powerful--bit it wasn't definitive.
A hero can be challenged without constantly giving him opponents who are straight-up more powerful than him 1v1. You can throw groups at him, use planning, exploit weaknesses (but don't overdo it), etc. But in any event, attitudes to him should be consistent with the reality in the comic books. With so many guys showing up who exceed his power, he shouldn't be treated with the kind of awe writers like to treat him. People would see him as powerful, yes. But not uniquely. And he isn't a threat to the entire Earth at this kind of relative power level.
So be consistent. If writers want to push the idea of him being a uniquely powerful being who threatens the entire Earth if he comes unglued, then give him that kind of power consistently. Or if they want to show him as first among the heroes by just a bit, and someone who faces many villains who are more powerful, then be consistent about that too. No more comments about how uniquely powerful he is, or how he needs to be contained in case he goes rogue, etc. And no more stories where he is miraculously treated as a teambuster who beats the world up, only for him to seem much less powerful for the next three story arcs. Pick a power level. Be consistent about it. Tailor the attitudes and comments of other characters to the power level you choose.

I agree 100%. That is what I've been saying for a bit.

Of course they pretty much did this pre-reboot as well. Most of the time Superman was first among equals (and sometimes not even that). But whenever a writer wanted to write one of those stories about a uniquely powerful hero that threatened the whole world (or could solo a threat to the whole world), they would pick Superman and just give him the power level the story required. Sometimes they explained the reason for the power level variations (mental blocks, holding back, psionic power, etc.). And sometimes (like in Superman King of the World) he is just that powerful for no reason at all.

Yeah, but at least pre-boot he had better showings on average. He wasn't totally feebed out to people on a regular basis. His ratio of high to low showings was much better imo. Honestly I don't mind the fluctuation as long as they explain it in some manner. When they don't it's just lazy writing.

I sincerely hope they at least start explaining the discrepancies. They probably won't though.

Superman's dynamic-like power has been referenced fairly consistently post-reboot. But they haven't really picked a mechanism and explained it in depth.

Really? I don't remember them talking about it fluctuating. I do know that they have said that he may grow in power over time, and that in the future he could become more powerful (doubt that will happen, but whatever). I don't remember them talking about anything else though.

Agreeing with the comments above. Superman just doesn't feel super anymore. In fact the writers seem to go out of their way to have some character more powerful or some weapon or tactic that can hurt him. There is no way people would see him as anything unique or be particularly afraid of him going rogue when the US and Russian military alone can probably take him down, and if they didn't there seems to be a line of characters forming that could. He seems like just another guy with powers.

I've never been a massive Superman (or DC) fan, but I really think they need to give him a boost back to being distinctly top of the ladder (except for rare exceptions such as perhaps cosmic level characters like Darkseid). As said above, you can challenge a powerful character plenty of other ways besides bigger badass/bigger weapon scenarios all the time. In fact it would make these comics a lot more interesting if they did.

Exactly basilisk. The reason the injustice comic works is because they portray Superman as a global threat. DC can't on one hand say that Superman is so powerful that the world is scared of him going rogue, and on the other have armies capable of easily taking him down, and having tons of characters capable of taking him down on their own. With all of the characters and armies that can clearly stomp him, why would the world be afraid of him? Just shoot him with red-sun bullets and call it a day.

DCNU Superman is a complete *****.

Most of the time. I've come to that conclusion.

When he loses the high collar, maybe then he'll change and man up.

As of now he's one of the best jobbers in comics. Pretty much where Thor was for awhile.

Agreed CosmicComet. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we Superman fans now know what the Thor fans were going through. I'm hoping we get a bone or two thrown our way soon though. The dream of course is get what the Thor and Hulk fans have gotten. I won't hold my breath though. DC seems to be under the assumption that to make Superman interesting they have to nerf/let him get stomped. Making him less powerful doesn't make him more relatable, it just annoys fans.

It seems like DC thinks everyone's perspective is the tired old "Man, supz is teh too strongerz!!11 he is boringsz!1" So they are actively doing this in order to say "Hey look everyone! He's not that strong! See? He just got stomped! Aren't you interested yet??!!"

I don't really care about Superman being relatable.

Relatable is underdog status and stuff.

But people don't just like underdogs, they like champions too. The George St. Pierres and Anderson Silvas of the world. People they can live vicariously through because they can achieve things that are perceived as impossible. That's a different type of inspiring than what you get from underdog stories, that's awe-inspiring.

Superman is the meant to be the latter. A champion. A symbol of hope, that good is always going to win because good is always strong enough to win. Just let him do what he's meant to do. Superman isn't liked because he's a struggling hero like Batman, he's liked because he's an awe-inspiring figure that challenges your imagination. All-Star Superman, the movie in particular, probably did more good for Superman than any other modern work, and he was exactly that there.

I was ok with the He-Man treatment though in that recent first encounter. He-Man is in a similar bracket/character type, an awe-inspiring champion, and he has been out of the spotlight for a long time.

Well said Cosmic, well said. I agree with you 100%. The way you described Supes is exactly as I have always seen him and why he is my favorite character.

Well, we got a bone, Supes just punked Apollo! It did my heart good to see that it.

which issue?

It looks like the Superman/WonderWoman book. I saw the scans in the character ownage thread.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Well, we got a bone, Supes just punked Apollo! It did my heart good to see that it.

Midnighter's husband?

That Apollo?

Or Greek God Apollo?

Greek Apollo.

Originally posted by emporerpants
It looks like the Superman/WonderWoman book. I saw the scans in the character ownage thread.

It's turning into one of the best books in the new 52.

Talking about this here because I don't want to derail the ownage thread, but why are people saying that Supes's latest showings are bad? He didn't lose any fights as far as I can tell (haven't gotten to the comic shop this week yet). So what was the problem with the mongul fight and the fight with the new character?

What I have read so far of NU Superman I Haven't really like it.

and is not really bad showings per say, but a lot of the new enemies are not established villains.

So there is no respect in getting into a fight with a no name villain.
Whose power level is mainly unknown and cannot be compared to other established characters.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Talking about this here because I don't want to derail the ownage thread, but why are people saying that Supes's latest showings are bad? He didn't lose any fights as far as I can tell (haven't gotten to the comic shop this week yet). So what was the problem with the mongul fight and the fight with the new character?

Because they'll try anything to make Superman look bad.

Yeah, it sure seems that way. I mean, in the Mongul fight Supes says he could have killed Mongul in one punch if he wanted, and instead punches him 200 miles away. How can that possibly be a bad showing?

The Supes hate is getting a bit silly.

Well in trinity war EVERYBODY is worried about Superman loosing control of his powers, so that is pretty clear picture of what the DC universe thinks about a rogue Superman.

They have to make everybody relevant in DCU otherwise there is no point having other heroes around and Superman has to pay for this.

But the for the DCU to worry about a rogue Superman is at least an indication of his power level when cutting loose.

Just got those comics today, and yeah, he doesn't lose any fights, and actually has some decent feats. In the Mongul fight he gets there, scans the area and sees that Bats is dead and a chick is an alien, grabs Mongul and flies off all in a thousandth of a second. Pretty decent speed feat wouldn't you say? In Action comics he has a knife fazed into his chest and basically acts like it's no big deal at all, a decent durability feat.

Yet somehow people are trying to make these into bad showings. It's pretty sad, to be honest.

*sigh* Did anyone read the new Superman/WonderWoman? Wow...they totally feebed out Superman in it. It's pretty much like a lot of us thought it was going to be. It was mentioned at least 3 times how Superman is very powerful, but untrained.

*spoilers*



So, Zod and Faora kicked the living crap out of Supes while Zod constantly mentioned that Supes is powerful but untrained. Then, WonderWoman shows up, and starts pounding on Zod and Faora. Then, zod apparently broke or messed up Supes's arm, and had a standoff with WW, threatening to kill Supes while and Wondy threatned to kill Faora. The comic ended with both of them releasing their prisoners.

Terrible. Just totally TERRIBLE. Supes was totally and utterly USELESS in that fight. Literally did nothing but get stomped while Wondy didn't take a single hit. Again, I'm getting awfully tired of the NU52 version of Supes being nothing but a punching bag.

So, why does everyone think this is? It really does seem like DC kinda has it out for Supes sometimes. The only way this last showing could be worse is if they had Supes crying and clutching at Wondy's leg while pointing at the big bad man who beat him up.

Honestly, I don't think there's any large conspiracy; I just think Superman has been stuck with a bunch of people that just couldn't, or wouldn't, write him properly.

Lobdell tries to make him look powerful, but completely ****s up the characterisation.

Soule... Yeah, not even gonna touch that.

Pak? Just weird.

Snyder? Huge disappointment, and just doesn't seem to "get" the character at all. Honestly felt like he hadn't been reading enough back issues.

Johns is coming back though...

Johns is coming back? That's good news at least. What book is he going to be writing?

Originally posted by emporerpants
Johns is coming back? That's good news at least. What book is he going to be writing?

AFAIK, he's going to be taking over the "Superman" book.

Awesome, thanks! Here's hoping he can turn that book around.

lol Soule's book is one of the better books in the New 52. I'm as big a Superman fan as they come but not every book has to suck his dick. It's perfectly fine. The other titles who should give him spotlight are doing it a lot worse.

Diana got wtfpwned by Doomsday too so that argument is invalid. And Supes was clearly holding back too. In fact Soules is the only one in the New 52 that used a sundip and he ****ed Apollo up.

Originally posted by Based
lol Soule's book is one of the better books in the New 52. I'm as big a Superman fan as they come but not every book has to suck his dick. It's perfectly fine. The other titles who should give him spotlight are doing it a lot worse.

Diana got wtfpwned by Doomsday too so that argument is invalid. And Supes was clearly holding back too. In fact Soules is the only one in the New 52 that used a sundip and he ****ed Apollo up.

Soule doesn't get Superman at all, imo.

There's nothing wrong with making Diana look good. You can do it without making Superman look bad at the same time. I'm not asking that he be the most powerful guy in every book, but at least have some consistency with the established reboot.

As Pr said, you don't have to make Supes look bad to make WW look good. That last showing was just embarrassing to say the least, and it is part of a larger trend that's been happening with Supes in the DCnu. he just keeps getting his ass kicked by everyone all the time. This last one is another in a long line of terrible showings. He looked absolutely worthless in that fight.

Also, not wanting Supes to look absolutely pathetic DOES NOT EQUAL sucking his dick. Come on now.

Originally posted by -Pr-

I'm not asking that he be the most powerful guy in every book, but at least have some consistency with the established reboot.




In other words, you're asking that Superman be portrayed as the most powerful guy in every book,
since, if he isn't, that would be inconsistent?



Pr, how exactly were we shown anything inconsistent with the established reboot?

Have you forgotten that Superman got tossed around by his little 15 year old cousin the first time he encountered her (Supergirl #1)?

Despite the fact that she had nearly zero fight experience
and was only trying to get away from him as he talked at her?

Why should Clark fare so much better now against 2 opponents who are (presumably)
older and bigger and stronger and more experienced and deliberately intent on taking Clark down
(Superman/Wonder Woman #5)
-- while he tries more or less the same "talk to resolve" approach?



Originally posted by -Pr-


There's nothing wrong with making Diana look good.


We agree there.



mmm


This represents arguably the first "A" list showing I've seen from the woman in the entire reboot.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/69dm5z.jpg

I don't think Superman should be the most powerful person in every book, no.

I think his powers and abilities should be kept consistent, though. At the same level established at the start of the reboot (albeit once we saw him grow up in Morrison's book).

Supergirl is nice and all, but she's not on his level. One showing doesn't change that, imo.

I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have had a problem with that last showing if they didn't make Supes look so completely pathetic. There is nothing wrong with making Wondy look good. But you don't have to do it at Supes's expense. Just like you don't have to make Supes look good at WW's expense. That last showing was borderline spiteful. Seriously, Supes got beat down, looked like a moron, got his arm broke, and got held hostage.

Blue, if all of that happened to WW and Superman showed up to save her so effortlessly how would that make you feel? Seriously, switch Superman and WonderWoman in that scenario and think about it. It would be BS right? I'd agree with you that it would be BS. So it is just as much BS when they do it to Superman.

I've sat and read the comic a couple of times now, so my summary is as follows:

There is nothing wrong with Zod being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

There is nothing wrong with Faora being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

There is nothing wrong with Diana being more skilled in h2h than Superman.

All make sense, as does Zod beating Superman due to being trained more comprehensively, if it's a hand to hand fight. But this isn't a hand to hand fight alone.

What I don't like, is how useless Superman has been portrayed as. He's had training. He has super senses, and he is stronger than Diana, and yet this all gets forgotten because the writer needs to make Diana look good.

They're supposed to be partners. They're supposed to be complimenting each other with their abilities.

Instead, the comic comes across as a blatant "you get to be the best this week" kind of thing, instead of making it about them working TOGETHER, and that's what I don't like.

The dialogue, especially for Superman, is just bad. Really bad. Very ooc, and Soule shows that he's yet another writer that, imo, doesn't know how to write an adult relationship.

Seriously, is Johns the only person still at DC that knows how to write a couple?

As boastful as it seems, I truly believe I'd do a better job than Soule, and that I'd do both Diana and Clark more credit than he is right now.

You would also write a better Lois than most of the retarded writers that had gotten their hands on Action Comics over the ages awesr

It's called caring about the characters.

Originally posted by Bentley
You would also write a better Lois than most of the retarded writers that had gotten their hands on Action Comics over the ages awesr

It's called caring about the characters.



Pretty much.

Great summation Pr. I agree with you 100%.

Originally posted by emporerpants
I'll tell you what, I wouldn't have had a problem with that last showing if they didn't make Supes look so completely pathetic. There is nothing wrong with making Wondy look good. But you don't have to do it at Supes's expense. Just like you don't have to make Supes look good at WW's expense. That last showing was borderline spiteful. Seriously, Supes got beat down, looked like a moron, got his arm broke, and got held hostage.

Blue, if all of that happened to WW and Superman showed up to save her so effortlessly how would that make you feel? Seriously, switch Superman and WonderWoman in that scenario and think about it. It would be BS right? I'd agree with you that it would be BS. So it is just as much BS when they do it to Superman.

mmm

Problem is, I don't have to imagine any such thing at all ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://oi60.tinypic.com/35byzau.jpg

Source: Superman / Wonder Woman #2, Volume 1
Writer: Charles Soule
Penciller: Tony S. Daniel
Official release: January 2014
Actual release: November 2013
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nor did I notice so much as a word from you in protest when that did happen.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Two wrongs don't make a right.


1) If it's morality you want to argue, consider stopping by my Luciferian thread sometime. Especially if you have moderator editing privileges. With the help of someone like yourself, I could probably pare it down from a 7 page thread to one of 3 or less that makes considerably more sense due to tighter organization.


2) Relating to your above quote, erring on opposite ends brings some much needed balance.

They can also spark a discussion that sheds light about the real problems that exist.


You worry about Superman losing his #1 spot, for instance.
Until recently, I wondered if Diana could legitimately be considered relevant in the current DCnU.

What did she do in the first year to even justify membership in the JLA for the first year of this company-wide reboot?

Happily, for whatever reason, she's getting somewhat of a spotlight now.

Perhaps because DC plans soon to promote her live action film?

Seems to be the start of an effort, at least ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1) If it's morality you want to argue, consider stopping by my Luciferian thread sometime. Especially if you have moderator editing privileges. With the help of someone like yourself, I could probably pare it down from a 7 page thread to one of 3 or less that makes considerably more sense due to tighter organization.


2) Relating to your above quote, erring on opposite ends brings some much needed balance.

They can also spark a discussion that sheds light about the real problems that exist.


You worry about Superman losing his #1 spot, for instance.
Until recently, I wondered if Diana could legitimately be considered relevant in the current DCnU.

What did she do in the first year to even justify membership in the JLA for the first year of this company-wide reboot?

Happily, for whatever reason, she's getting somewhat of a spotlight now.

Perhaps because DC plans soon to promote her live action film?

Seems to be the start of an effort, at least ...

I can't edit that thread sadly. I have been meaning to reply to the last post you made to me, though.

you can have balance without making both of them look bad, which is my point all along.

Blue, I'm a Superman fan, not a WonderWoman fan. Why didn't YOU protest that? I didn't see you complaining about it. If I did I'd agree with you, because it was BS that that happened to WW. As Pr. said though, two wrongs don't make a right, and in that instance Supes didn't swoop in and effortlessly stomp Doomsday. Still though, it was total crap that that happened to WW. I agree with you 100%. The difference is, I don't think either poor showing should have happened, while you seem to think the Superman one is perfectly fine.

Its ok.

superman is made to look like a chump from time to time, especially around reboots.

But hey, at least is a way to make Diana useful somehow when she appears with superman.

At least this way she is not useless and can teach superman how to fight like a warrior.

Is like when Batman appears with Superman in a comic, you know Batman is useless when the guy he is helping can bench press the earth for five days, but still from time to time Batman has to be made usefull by the writer somehow.

That is why guys like Mcduffie had to weakness exploit Superman to let the others shine for a bit.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Blue, I'm a Superman fan, not a WonderWoman fan.



Superman fan?
On a Superman forum, no less?
H-how can this be???



Originally posted by emporerpants
Why didn't YOU protest that? I didn't see you complaining about it. If I did I'd agree with you, because it was BS that that happened to WW.

1) Wonder Woman in this latest reboot has had far bigger problems than Doomsday.
2) There's no Wonder Woman forum on these boards in which TO make that complaint, whether I'm inclined to do so or not. Which, for the most part, I'm not.
3) Wonder Woman has always had crap durability relative to Kryptonians and other heralds. As you yourself pointed out, she didn't actually get HIT in any significant way in the fight with Faora and Zod. I expect it would be a very different story if she had. Frankly, I also expect that WILL happen, come next issue, and then you shall again be quite satisfied.

Originally posted by emporerpants
I don't think either poor showing should have happened, while you seem to think the Superman one is perfectly fine.

Like Salsa, I'm quite alright with the latter, yes, despite the fact that Salsa, to judge from his collection (It's remarkable. Seriously.) is a far bigger Superman fan than yourself.


The problems are different. Salsa may be teasing me, but he's right: Wonder Woman is generally so poorly known for actually DOING anything in the DCU most people regard her as inconsequential. The reboot, until the present, hasn't really done much to change that.

Things SHOULD be to the point where a poor showing like that wouldn't matter.
That's not the case, because, unlike Superman, Wonder Woman is rarely if ever given any actual feats or good showings to counterbalance the bad.

It might be nice if I could convince myself DC was intent on changing that.

Might be ...

Blue, why the hostility? Seriously. I mentioned that I am a Superman fan because you said I should have championed WW's cause when she got screwed over. There's no need to respond in such a sarcastic and insulting manner.

Why should I champion her cause? I'm not a big fan of hers. That doesn't mean that I don't notice when she gets screwed over and think that it shouldn't happen. I'll let the WonderWoman fans fight that fight, doesn't mean I won't agree with or back them up though.


Also, For a few years now Superman has done nothing but get stomped over and over and over. This can't be denied. This is also a very poor treatment of the character. I'm not the only one who thinks this. While WW actually very rarely loses the fights in the comics. Also, why are you judging how WW looks solely in direct comparison to Supes? I don't see anyone saying "Yeah, I'm ok with making Supes look like a chump because now it balances things out for Green Lantern."

Also, how do you know how big of a Superman fan I am? Kindly withhold judgments like that. You have no idea how big of a fan I am, how many comics I own, and how much I love the character. So please stop using the size of someone's collection as an excuse to dismiss their opinion. That's quite rude and silly.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Its ok.

superman is made to look like a chump from time to time, especially around reboots.

But hey, at least is a way to make Diana useful somehow when she appears with superman.

At least this way she is not useless and can teach superman how to fight like a warrior.

Is like when Batman appears with Superman in a comic, you know Batman is useless when the guy he is helping can bench press the earth for five days, but still from time to time Batman has to be made usefull by the writer somehow.

That is why guys like Mcduffie had to weakness exploit Superman to let the others shine for a bit.

Very well said.

Supes just had an awesome feat. How he beat Doomsday was pretty incredible.

Originally posted by emporerpants
Supes just had an awesome feat. How he beat Doomsday was pretty incredible.

I am not trying to instigate or start an argument with blue.

But consider the following:

Doomsday overcomes WW's superior skill with brute strength. There has to be a substantial gap in strength between Doomsday and WW for DD to overcome WW's strength + superior skill.

WW's skill was enough to hang with and Zod's strength but was no match for Doomsday's strength, (Zod was no slouch in the skills department either).

Now consider what Superman did to that DD with his strength and strength alone. Doomsday was in the process of punching superman and superman grabbed his fists and pulled. Doomsday wouldn't just let superman tear him apart right? he must have resisted and his applied his strength which is considerably more than WW and opposed superman from pulling him apart. The brute strength was no match for superman because of what superman did, resisted DD opposing him and still tore him apart.

A great feat that puts an all out superman at the top of the food chain where strength is concerned.

actually

N52 Superman's power > Post Crisis/ Before Flashpoint Superman's power

Mmmmm not yet. He's stronger on average, not more powerful.