Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Sauron has all the rings

Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.

So the rings do nothing for him?

He put his own power into the rings, so no, not really. Sauron was always a lesser being than Morgoth. And again, Morgoth is Melkor's name before he invested most of his real power into Middle-Earth. Morgoth was able to wreck the surface of the world fighting with other Valar.

Originally posted by Supra
Sauron has all the rings

Tolkien notes that during the War of Wrath Morgoth is actually weaker than Sauron at his peak. Of course, Melkor in his prime ROFL stomps Sauron. And pretty much every other version of Morgoth (like the one Fingolfin fought) would win.

Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien notes that during the War of Wrath Morgoth is actually weaker than Sauron at his peak. Of course, Melkor in his prime ROFL stomps Sauron. And pretty much every other version of Morgoth (like the one Fingolfin fought) would win.

Ok so with the rings he could have overcome Melkor?

The very weakest form of Melkor, who has spent eons in isolation and gets taken out (sometimes, Tolkien never committed the battle fully to paper) by Turin, a human warrior who died in the First Age.

Don't misunderstand, Melkor every time before that was ever Sauron's superior. Sauron served as his lieutenant right up until the Valar decided to remove Melkor's might from the earth, and Gandalf, IIRC, mentions that Sauron is a mere lieutenant to a far greater evil.

No, not even close. Sauron, even with all the rings (all though I don't see how any of them but the One will make much of a difference), would be but a gnat compared to Melkor at his full might. However, Sauron could overcome the weakest version of Morgoth.

How did Melkor accrue all this power?

Melkor, who was previously Morgoth, was the mightiest of the Ainur, which are basically tiers of godlike or angellike beings in Tolkien's mythos.

He had the power to basically subjugate and corrupt a small minority of Valar and Maiar, and had basically terraforming powers among other things in the beginning. He single-handedly created the orcs from captured elves.

So Morgoth is basically the prime evil himself

He is. He is Tolkien's Satan.

Originally posted by Supra
How did Melkor accrue all this power?

He was "the greatest created power". Basically he is second only to Eru aka God (with a capital 'G'') in the beginning. Why he was created by Eru to be so powerful? Who knows.

Why/how did he lose his power and thus become Melkor?

As ares said, he invested his power into earth. 'Melkor' is not really a different being so much as a title given to him by Feanor for being a deceiver of elves.

Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As ares said, he invested his power into earth. 'Melkor' is not really a different being so much as a title given to him by Feanor for being a deceiver of elves.

Thanks!

Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.

Oh you're right. Whups. What a simple mistake too.

Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.

I know Melkor was his first name but I did not know that is where his power came from..thanks!

Originally posted by ares834
He is. He is Tolkien's Satan.



He was "the greatest created power". Basically he is second only to Eru aka God (with a capital 'G'') in the beginning. Why he was created by Eru to be so powerful? Who knows.

Many follow the bible, as did this

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And again, Morgoth is Melkor's name before he invested most of his real power into Middle-Earth.
You got the names backwards, Melkor was his name as an Ainu.

I know that. Ares already said as much and I admitted as much. Try reading more next time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.

YOu have it backwards buddy... he was Melkor first and then Morgoth...

Tell me moosie.. how easily does Mace pwn Dooku in saber combat?

Are you also incapable of reading an entire thread before you reply? Half-cocked must be your nickname for various reasons.

Are you mad you have no clue what you're talking about? It's okay moosie don't get your panties in a bunch.

So back to Mace pwning Dooku.. LULZ

Your initial quote
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
YOu have it backwards buddy... he was Melkor first and then Morgoth...

Tell me moosie.. how easily does Mace pwn Dooku in saber combat?

From Page 1
Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Oh you're right. Whups. What a simple mistake too.

Earlier on this page
Originally posted by Astner
You got the names backwards, Melkor was his name as an Ainu.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I know that. Ares already said as much and I admitted as much. Try reading more next time.


What you just said
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Are you mad you have no clue what you're talking about? It's okay moosie don't get your panties in a bunch.

So back to Mace pwning Dooku.. LULZ

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/HURRR_85226b_724840.jpg

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form. Pretty sure that Melkor is stronger than Morgoth.

Oh, and Morgoth was apparently too weak to withstand Arien's gaze. And well, Sauron is the mightiest of the Maiar (Save maybe Eonwe I think his name is).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Melkor, who was previously Morgoth, was the mightiest of the Ainur, which are basically tiers of godlike or angellike beings in Tolkien's mythos.

He had the power to basically subjugate and corrupt a small minority of Valar and Maiar, and had basically terraforming powers among other things in the beginning. He single-handedly created the orcs from captured elves. "Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.

Melkor>Morgoth

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.

Tulkas is listed as physically the strongest Valar of all, and excels in close unarmed combat and runs faster than anything alive. So it's a given he wins most fights. If you are looking at more magical like applications of divine power, Melkor surpasses Tulkas by far. His earlier battels with the Valar reshaped Arda.

Also, Manwe technically was the ambassador of uber-God and could call down his wrath in a hot minute, making him arguably the most powerful being in Arda.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Pretty sure that Melkor is stronger than Morgoth.

Oh, and Morgoth was apparently too weak to withstand Arien's gaze. And well, Sauron is the mightiest of the Maiar (Save maybe Eonwe I think his name is).

Manwe's herald, and he's explicitly noted as being the best at arms. Whereas Tulkas is a huge buff guy, Eonwe could pretty much outduel anyone, bar none.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Mightiest" doesn't necessarily correlate to combat ability, apparently (though in his prime Melkor obviously stomps Sauron).

Melkor was mightier than Tulkas, but that didn't stop Tulkas from beating the shit out of him.

Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Manwe's herald, and he's explicitly noted as being the best at arms. Whereas Tulkas is a huge buff guy, Eonwe could pretty much outduel anyone, bar none.

True, but I wouldn't give Eonwe the edge over Tulkas. After all, Tulkas doesn't use weapons.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tulkas is listed as physically the strongest Valar of all, and excels in close unarmed combat and runs faster than anything alive. So it's a given he wins most fights. If you are looking at more magical like applications of divine power, Melkor surpasses Tulkas by far. His earlier battels with the Valar reshaped Arda.

Only Melkor's magical prowess apparently doesn't mean dick when Tulkas runs up to him and punches his face in, lol.



Melkor, even after imprisonment, is the "mightiest being in Arda". This is directly stated by the narrative when Feanor slams his door in Melkor's face.



I'd like to hope that Tulkas would easily overpower Eonwe and beat his face in, actually. Powerful Maia he may be, he is still but a Maia.

Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.

Where is this all stated?

I mean, as I said, Melkor was still the mightiest being in Arda even after imprisonment. That didn't stop Tulkas from punching his face out the back of his skull and putting him in chains to begin with.

I think, in Melkor's case, though he is very powerful, he is too much of a cowardly little girl to bring it to bear in combat. Because he is a coward and a fool.

It's in an essay Tolkien wrote which is found in Morgoth's Ring.

"Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power).(1) (He was to make I devise I begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.) Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.

The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'.(2) Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a powerlevel with the Valar."

Yep. In fact, I just reread a few pages of The Sil while waiting for an appointment and it confirms that before investing his power into Arda, Melkor was able to contend with the sum of the other Valar, and was explicitly the strongest of any of them and riches in divine gifts of Eru.

Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien says that even all the Valar working together could not have defeated Melkor in his prime. Luckily for Tulkas, Tolkien claims that by the time the Valar confront Melkor in Utumno he has already disappointed much of his power into Arda.

So I'd favor Prime!Melkor over even Tulkas.



True, but I wouldn't give Eonwe the edge over Tulkas. After all, Tulkas doesn't use weapons.

No, Tulkas would probably still win. He's just a Lightning Bruiser of epic levels. However, if Eonwe had to sword duel someone, he's explicitly the best at it, bar none. A very limited scope when compared to Melkor or Tulkas, but against other Maiar, elves, or Numenoreans, he would stomp.

Yeah, my bad. I put that backwards... Meant to says Tulkas would beat Eonwe.

Edit: Actually that is what I said.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, my bad. I put that backwards... Meant to says Tulkas would beat Eonwe.

Edit: Actually that is what I said.

OR DID YOU?

Also, your level of Tolkien knowledge is impressive, sir. I salute you.

What I read in The Silmarillion dictates that Melkor was indeed able to contend with the combined might of all the other Ainur... Until Tulkas showed up, in which case Melkor ran and hid like a little girl.

You mean after countless ages of fighting with the combined might of the other Valar, to the point of rearranging the face of Arda in countless battles? You mean at that point? Tulkas tipped the scales; he didn't solo Melkor at full strength.

No, Melkor is by canon shit terrified of Tulkas, because he is by canon something of a huge pussy.

Countless ages? No real time frame is given, and he had not yet invested himself fully into Arda.

Maybe Melkor could defeat Tulkas in single combat... Were he not such a little girl.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No, Melkor is by canon shit terrified of Tulkas, because he is by canon something of a huge pussy.

Countless ages? No real time frame is given, and he had not yet invested himself fully into Arda.

Maybe Melkor could defeat Tulkas in single combat... Were he not such a little girl.
JHC...your knowledge of this topic is amazingly bad.

Melkor in his prime would *****-slap Tulky with one finger.

FACT.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tulkas is listed as physically the strongest Valar of all, and excels in close unarmed combat and runs faster than anything alive. So it's a given he wins most fights. If you are looking at more magical like applications of divine power, Melkor surpasses Tulkas by far. His earlier battels with the Valar reshaped Arda.

Also, Manwe technically was the ambassador of uber-God and could call down his wrath in a hot minute, making him arguably the most powerful being in Arda.

Summed it up pretty well.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.

Aren't Morgoth and Melkor the same person? His real name is Melkor, but after his actions, the Valar didn't want to speak of the name Melkor. So they called him Morgoth, meaning "Dark Enemy".

I actually transposed his two titles mistakenly. As Melkor, hr is very powerful. As Morgoth, progressively less so.

Sauron > Luthien > Morgoth.

Prove me wrong.