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Morgoth vs Sauron
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Supra
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Morgoth vs Sauron

Sauron has all the rings


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 04:45 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Morgoth > Melkor > Sauron in any form.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 04:51 AM
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Supra
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So the rings do nothing for him?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:00 AM
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Stealth Moose
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He put his own power into the rings, so no, not really. Sauron was always a lesser being than Morgoth. And again, Morgoth is Melkor's name before he invested most of his real power into Middle-Earth. Morgoth was able to wreck the surface of the world fighting with other Valar.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:03 AM
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Re: Morgoth vs Sauron

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
Sauron has all the rings


Tolkien notes that during the War of Wrath Morgoth is actually weaker than Sauron at his peak. Of course, Melkor in his prime ROFL stomps Sauron. And pretty much every other version of Morgoth (like the one Fingolfin fought) would win.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:03 AM
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Re: Re: Morgoth vs Sauron

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien notes that during the War of Wrath Morgoth is actually weaker than Sauron at his peak. Of course, Melkor in his prime ROFL stomps Sauron. And pretty much every other version of Morgoth (like the one Fingolfin fought) would win.


Ok so with the rings he could have overcome Melkor?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:06 AM
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The very weakest form of Melkor, who has spent eons in isolation and gets taken out (sometimes, Tolkien never committed the battle fully to paper) by Turin, a human warrior who died in the First Age.

Don't misunderstand, Melkor every time before that was ever Sauron's superior. Sauron served as his lieutenant right up until the Valar decided to remove Melkor's might from the earth, and Gandalf, IIRC, mentions that Sauron is a mere lieutenant to a far greater evil.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:09 AM
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ares834
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No, not even close. Sauron, even with all the rings (all though I don't see how any of them but the One will make much of a difference), would be but a gnat compared to Melkor at his full might. However, Sauron could overcome the weakest version of Morgoth.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:10 AM
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How did Melkor accrue all this power?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:10 AM
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Melkor, who was previously Morgoth, was the mightiest of the Ainur, which are basically tiers of godlike or angellike beings in Tolkien's mythos.

He had the power to basically subjugate and corrupt a small minority of Valar and Maiar, and had basically terraforming powers among other things in the beginning. He single-handedly created the orcs from captured elves.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:13 AM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The very weakest form of Melkor, who has spent eons in isolation and gets taken out (sometimes, Tolkien never committed the battle fully to paper) by Turin, a human warrior who died in the First Age.


Tolkien seems to have dropped the whole Turin slaying Morgoth at the final battle stuff. Its really only found in his earlier writing IIRC.

The Sauron greater than Morgoth statement, however, was written near the end of his life. Here is the quote (with context) found in Morgoth's Ring.

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings."


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Last edited by ares834 on Dec 26th, 2013 at 05:20 AM

Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:16 AM
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So Morgoth is basically the prime evil himself


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:17 AM
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He is. He is Tolkien's Satan.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
How did Melkor accrue all this power?


He was "the greatest created power". Basically he is second only to Eru aka God (with a capital 'G'') in the beginning. Why he was created by Eru to be so powerful? Who knows.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:19 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Tolkien seems to have dropped the whole Turin slaying Morgoth at the final battle stuff. Its really only found in his earlier writing IIRC.

The Sauron greater than Morgoth statement, however, was written near the end of his life. Here is the quote (win context) found in Morgoth's Ring.

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings."


thumb up

It's a damn pity he never did do anything with the War of Wrath, but we're lucky to have what we have.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Supra
So Morgoth is basically the prime evil himself


Yes.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:19 AM
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Why/how did he lose his power and thus become Melkor?


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:20 AM
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As ares said, he invested his power into earth. 'Melkor' is not really a different being so much as a title given to him by Feanor for being a deceiver of elves.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:23 AM
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Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:25 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As ares said, he invested his power into earth. 'Melkor' is not really a different being so much as a title given to him by Feanor for being a deceiver of elves.


Thanks!


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Last edited by Supra on Dec 26th, 2013 at 05:32 AM

Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:26 AM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.


Oh you're right. Whups. What a simple mistake too.


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:28 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ares834
Other way around. He was originally called Melkor but was renamed Morgoth by Feanor.

But yep, he invested his power into the earth to corrupt an dominate it and into his 'creations'.


I know Melkor was his first name but I did not know that is where his power came from..thanks!


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Old Post Dec 26th, 2013 05:29 AM
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