Whose more vile? Tywin Lannister or Roose Bolton

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davesoprano
I would really love to see these two in a scene together just to see what they'll think of each other. They kinda act similar in terms of having that icy cold and nonchalant demeanor but who do you think is worse or more despicable?

Lord Lucien
Far as the show has shown, Tywin. Roose is a betrayer, but given the context, that doesn't stand out much. Tywin has ordered the butcher of children.

Firefly218
Tywin hands down

Arachnid1
Well, Roose has more enjoyment in distasteful matters. With Tywin, he just does what he believes is logical. He doesn't enjoy any of the acts. Roose also happens to be restrained more (usually by Winterfell). Given the freedom to do so, he and his house would do some pretty ****ed up things. His house takes pride in torture after all. I'd say Roose is more despicable. The Red Wedding is just a taste of the shit he's capable of when he's unshackled (Tywin being the one to unshackle him in this case).

Tywin is a worse enemy to have though, because he is damn smart and will do whatever he has to to get the job done. I wouldn't say he's vile. He even has some admirable qualities. That said, he's not a good guy either. He seems like a Chaotic Neutral (or a Lawful Evil) type character. Roose and his house just seem Chaotic Evil.

NemeBro
Roose is far more malevolent.

Tywin commits atrocities for the good of his family.

Roose is more restrained than his animalistic son or inhuman rape tornadoes like Gregor Clegane, but he drops hints every now and then that he commits atrocities not merely because he feels he has to, but also because he enjoys it.

Think back to when Jaime and Brienne stayed at Harrenhal under his care. When he brought them to eat with him, he gave Jaime, who now only had one hand, a hard to cut steak and took personal glee in watching the once proud and powerful warrior struggle to so much as eat his ****ing food. And with Brienne, a very tall, and brawny woman whose occupation is typically filled by men, she is given a very garish, unflattering dress. Simply to mock her. By contrast, Tywin's only truly needlessly cruel acts concern his son Tyrion, but Tywin has a reason for these actions. Not a good reason mind you, but a more humanizing one. Speaking of humanizing, recall Tywin's rather cordial interactions with Arya in the show. Can anyone here picture Roose doing as much?

Plus there's this:

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/06/roose_bolton_smile-57139.gif

Look at that creepy as **** smile.

Tywin is a bad man. Roose is possibly a sociopath.

I've spoken with a buddy of mine on this topic, concerning some similar characters.

Tywin gravitates between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. Roose is firmly planted in Lawful Evil. He abides by certain rules placed on him only because he is intelligent and wise enough to know that his own monstrous nature would not be tolerated in Westeros (This is the defining difference between him and his son).

On another note, in the book at least, Gregor Clegane is worse than all of them. thumb up

KingD19
I agree. A simple way to put it is that Tywin is ruthless. Utterly ruthless. However, he approaches everything but Tyrion in a detached, cold, logical demeanor.

House Lannister wiped out House Reyne(Rains of Castamere fame) because they'd rebelled against his father and his father was a weak man. So he wiped them out to not only save his family, but to prove a point and he wiped them completely out so there wouldn't be any Rob Starks. No Reyne's coming back for revenge.

Everything he's done has been for a good reason, at least from his standpoint. And from any standpoint, it's always been a cold sort of tactical reasoning.

Roose on the other hand is just a sadistic guy who enjoys seeing others suffer.

Tywin is the guy who'd order your torture because it served a purpose like gaining information or demoralizing your friends when they found you.

Roose is the guy who would personally torture because it rustles his jimmies.

NemeBro
Tywin is all about being pragmatic.

Remember when Gregor was having civilians tortured because he felt like it?

Tywin put an immediate stop to that, because it was more practical to put them to work.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by NemeBro
Roose is far more malevolent.

Tywin commits atrocities for the good of his family.

Roose is more restrained than his animalistic son or inhuman rape tornadoes like Gregor Clegane, but he drops hints every now and then that he commits atrocities not merely because he feels he has to, but also because he enjoys it.

Think back to when Jaime and Brienne stayed at Harrenhal under his care. When he brought them to eat with him, he gave Jaime, who now only had one hand, a hard to cut steak and took personal glee in watching the once proud and powerful warrior struggle to so much as eat his ****ing food. And with Brienne, a very tall, and brawny woman whose occupation is typically filled by men, she is given a very garish, unflattering dress. Simply to mock her. By contrast, Tywin's only truly needlessly cruel acts concern his son Tyrion, but Tywin has a reason for these actions. Not a good reason mind you, but a more humanizing one. Speaking of humanizing, recall Tywin's rather cordial interactions with Arya in the show. Can anyone here picture Roose doing as much?

Plus there's this:

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/06/roose_bolton_smile-57139.gif

Look at that creepy as **** smile.

Tywin is a bad man. Roose is possibly a sociopath.

I've spoken with a buddy of mine on this topic, concerning some similar characters.

Tywin gravitates between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. Roose is firmly planted in Lawful Evil. He abides by certain rules placed on him only because he is intelligent and wise enough to know that his own monstrous nature would not be tolerated in Westeros (This is the defining difference between him and his son).

On another note, in the book at least, Gregor Clegane is worse than all of them. thumb up Well said! Thats all pretty much my thoughts except articulated better.

Except for Ser Gregor. From what I've read so far, Gregor is pretty terrible. I'm not sure if he's as bad as Roose or his bastard but I haven't seen everything yet. I just get the impression that he's a restrained psycho, kind of like Roose and his family. Then again, I'm not caught up so maybe he does worse. So far, I know of what he's done to the Martells, and the random bar wench he raped while her father watched. That, and the villages he's reduced to ash and corpses. Nothing I cant see Roose or Ramsey doing. Roose raped Ramsey's mother after all. Still not as much as The Mountain, but being Lord the Dreadfort has more restrictions than being a lap dog. Ramsey, on the other hand, is a step above Roose (and Gregor, I think) on both murder and rape, and the glee he finds in those matters.

From what I've read online, it's implied that Gregor has a tumor/growth in his head that makes him crazy/sadistic and unable to feel empathy. Ramsey just enjoys it because his definition of fun. Roose is probably in the same category as Ramsey, except more restricted.

Though of them all, the main characters seem to fear Roose more than anyone. Just look at the quotes on Rooses wiki page. Everyone feared Roose. Jamie, Robb, Theon, Cat, (etc...). Even after everything Ramsey did to Theon, Theon considered Ramsey nothing more than a shadow of Roose. I think Roose may actually be the worse of them all, though he keeps it well hidden.

Robtard
Roose is sadistic to a fault, he enjoyed the red wedding, Tywin just saw it as a means to an end, as an example.

I'd still rather have Roose as an enemy than Tywin though.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by NemeBro
Roose is far more malevolent.

Tywin commits atrocities for the good of his family.

Roose is more restrained than his animalistic son or inhuman rape tornadoes like Gregor Clegane, but he drops hints every now and then that he commits atrocities not merely because he feels he has to, but also because he enjoys it.

Think back to when Jaime and Brienne stayed at Harrenhal under his care. When he brought them to eat with him, he gave Jaime, who now only had one hand, a hard to cut steak and took personal glee in watching the once proud and powerful warrior struggle to so much as eat his ****ing food. And with Brienne, a very tall, and brawny woman whose occupation is typically filled by men, she is given a very garish, unflattering dress. Simply to mock her. By contrast, Tywin's only truly needlessly cruel acts concern his son Tyrion, but Tywin has a reason for these actions. Not a good reason mind you, but a more humanizing one. Speaking of humanizing, recall Tywin's rather cordial interactions with Arya in the show. Can anyone here picture Roose doing as much?

Plus there's this:

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/06/roose_bolton_smile-57139.gif

Look at that creepy as **** smile.

Tywin is a bad man. Roose is possibly a sociopath.

I've spoken with a buddy of mine on this topic, concerning some similar characters.

Tywin gravitates between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. Roose is firmly planted in Lawful Evil. He abides by certain rules placed on him only because he is intelligent and wise enough to know that his own monstrous nature would not be tolerated in Westeros (This is the defining difference between him and his son).

On another note, in the book at least, Gregor Clegane is worse than all of them. thumb up

thumb up

[email protected] inhuman rape tornado.

davesoprano
Originally posted by Firefly218
Tywin hands down

To me Tywin's just more powerful, hence has the resources to crush a vast majority of his enemies. Their motives is what I was referring to

NemeBro
Originally posted by Arachnid1


Except for Ser Gregor. From what I've read so far, Gregor is pretty terrible. I'm not sure if he's as bad as Roose or his bastard but I haven't seen everything yet. I just get the impression that he's a restrained psycho, kind of like Roose and his family. Then again, I'm not caught up so maybe he does worse. So far, I know of what he's done to the Martells, and the random bar wench he raped while her father watched. That, and the villages he's reduced to ash and corpses. Nothing I cant see Roose or Ramsey doing. Roose raped Ramsey's mother after all. Still not as much as The Mountain, but being Lord the Dreadfort has more restrictions than being a lap dog. Ramsey, on the other hand, is a step above Roose (and Gregor, I think) on both murder and rape, and the glee he finds in those matters.

From what I've read online, it's implied that Gregor has a tumor/growth in his head that makes him crazy/sadistic and unable to feel empathy. Ramsey just enjoys it because his definition of fun. Roose is probably in the same category as Ramsey, except more restricted.

Though of them all, the main characters seem to fear Roose more than anyone. Just look at the quotes on Rooses wiki page. Everyone feared Roose. Jamie, Robb, Theon, Cat, (etc...). Even after everything Ramsey did to Theon, Theon considered Ramsey nothing more than a shadow of Roose. I think Roose may actually be the worse of them all, though he keeps it well hidden.

I rank Gregor above Roose and Ramsay on the "evilness" meter simply because, at the end of the day, they're more human.

Gregor is an inhuman beast in human skin who does hilarious things like smash babies into walls and rape and kill the mother with the child's brains lathered into his hands, and then has to be reminded that he did it. Forgetting something like this would be understandable considering how many people Gregor kills and rapes, except these particular victims were Elia of Dorne and Aegon Targaryen, wife of the prince and the heir to the throne after Rhaegar, respectively.

Heck of a guy, that Gregor.

davesoprano
Originally posted by Robtard
I'd still rather have Roose as an enemy than Tywin though.

lol amen to that

Nephthys
An interesting thing about Roose is that he knows full well that Ramsay can't actually succeed him, because he's far too obviously unstable and ****ed-up. He has a big speech in the books about how his house is probably going to die out because of it.

And yet he still betrayed Robb and usurped his position just for the hell of it. Even though he knows the Boltons won't hold it. Arachnids quotes have the right of it, Roose is just a well concealed sociopath who likes to burn ants for his mild amusement.

NemeBro
Shut up.

Nephthys
Why are you so mean to me? :C

Epicurus
Roose Bolton, hands down.

ares834
thumb up

Ramsay takes the cake for worst though IMO.

http://i.imgur.com/fe4NUDb.gif

Nephthys
Book Ramsey is imo, even worse than Gregor. He's the most evil character in the series.

NemeBro
He loves his mother though.

Gregor loves nothing.

Epicurus
If anyone actually deserves the title of being the worst in either the books or the series, then it's Littlefinger.

NemeBro
He loves Catelyn though.

Gregor loves nothing.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NemeBro
He loves his mother though.

Gregor loves nothing.

Does he?

Because he's got brain-damage. He's impaired mentally in some form, which is probably why he's like he is. Ramsay has no reason, he's just a complete psychopath. And either way Ramsay's atrocities are way worse than Gregors. Gregor just kills and rapes people. Ramsay takes it a step further by skinning or torturing his victims before he rapes and kills them. Well, before he kills them. God I hope he doesn't skin them before he rapes them. sick Plus what he did to Theon is a much more prolonged, pronounced form of evil than Gregor is capable of.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Nephthys
Does he?

Because he's got brain-damage. He's impaired mentally in some form, which is probably why he's like he is. Ramsay has no reason, he's just a complete psychopath. And either way Ramsay's atrocities are way worse than Gregors. Gregor just kills and rapes people. Ramsay takes it a step further by skinning or torturing his victims before he rapes and kills them. Well, before he kills them. God I hope he doesn't skin them before he rapes them. sick Plus what he did to Theon is a much more prolonged, pronounced form of evil than Gregor is capable of.

Yes he does, he actually thinks that Roose's romance with his mother was some beautiful epic tale of a love that transcended class and social status.

In reality, Roose just sort of raped her, lol.

If you think Ramsay doesn't have brain damage you're a pretty strange guy. People afflicted with Antisocial Personality Disorder whose brains have been examined have shown decay in the area that processes IIRC empathy or some other related shit.

Also, it is directly indicated that Ramsay's start of darkness began when he was goaded by his mother and possibly Reek into not being satisfied with a peasant's life. In reality, it is Gregor who has no reason save his nature for being the way he is. He was the glint in his father's eye, the heir to a knightly house, yet it is still indicated that he's been a monster since before he was even a teenager, back when he was "only" six feet tall.

Gregor tortures the shit out of people. He cut off pieces of Vargo Hoat's body (Vargo who had gone mad due to an infected wound) over a long period of time and fed them both to Vargo and to his prisoners in Harrenhal. He kept Vargo alive for as long as possible because he found his lisp amusing. He planned to feed Vargo his cock last, IIRC, but Hoat died before he could. You don't really remember this because Hoat was himself a very horrible individual, but Gregor is still capable of that same maliciousness and cruelty.

He indeed wouldn't create a Reek-fu for himself, but that really just adds a twisted form of humanity to Ramsay. He cared enough about Reek to create a new one in Theon, he needs Reek, it isn't just about his personal amusement. Gregor wants for and needs nothing.

It isn't a contest. He was a psychopath. A monster.

HueyFreeman
I think they both hide behind the same mask of cold logic and practicality but it hides different characteristics for each. Tywin is more machiavellian but he uses the mask to hide that he is actually more humane then he would like others to believe. You get this from his conversations with arya about his father. You can tell he loved his father but he also resents his fathers weakness. All his actions seem created to command fear and respect from those around him and to avoid becoming his father. Even his hatred for tyrion is matched by the love he had for his wife. Bolton seems to be the opposite. The mask seems created to hide that hes more like his son than he would like others to believe. This you can see with how he toys with jamie and of course the red wedding.

Epicurus
Originally posted by NemeBro
He loves Catelyn though.

Gregor loves nothing.
Obsessive, stalkerish type love. And he betrayed her family as well. That, my dear lad, is far and away worse than loving nothing.

Actually he does. He loves to rape, beat, and stomp human beings into mush.

Stealth Moose
Gregor is a larger monster than Middlefinger by far. The latter doesn't initiate gangrapes of daughters in front of their fathers an then say she's not worth the coin, or brutalize someone while covered in the brains of their infant.

He may be conniving but ultimately his evil is far more contained.

Nephthys
I actually like Littlefinger.

Stealth Moose
I think he's a miserable douche who helped kill Ned.

Nephthys
True, but I can't even blame him for that. It was Ned's own stupidity that led to that. Littlefinger flat out told him not to trust him and was openly duplicitous in front of him, so Ned hinges his entire plan on trusting him. When it happened I wasn't pissed, I was more like 'Well, I would have done the same ****ing thing. Seriously Ned, what did you think was going to happen?"

Stealth Moose
Ned had a serious case of Honor before Reason, bit you can't deny that he is a paragon next to anyone else in the series. Naturally, for that reason he had to die. I just think pedo Littlefinger trying to bed Sansa, selling Arya's friend off into prostitution, and arranging Jon Arryn's murder is an unlikable douche.

Nephthys
Ssssssssspoilerssss.

Ned was a great guy, but the series has gotten to the point where I think of most of his good qualities as liabilities rather than things to be admired. My thoughts on him are mostly on how suicidally stupid he was.

Instead I'm gravitating more towards people like Littlefinger who do douchey things that I can't help but smirk at and go 'ok that was pretty clever.' Plus Littlefingers always witty and flippant about things, making it hard to stay mad at him. HUGE SPOILER: Also, he killed Joffrey.

Of course, then theres people like Tyrion and Arya who are smart and ruthless but also pretty decent people. Who I love the best.

The series sure does mess with your sense of right and wrong. Also ages, because all the Stark kids are retardedly young.

Stealth Moose
Killing Joffrey would almost does not alleviate his douchebaggery. Almost.

And yes, the idea is that the noble and pure who don't get their hands dirty die, unlike traditional fantasy. Martin overturned the expectations of most readers in that way.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Gregor is a larger monster than Middlefinger by far.

lawl

NemeBro
Originally posted by Epicurus
Obsessive, stalkerish type love. And he betrayed her family as well. That, my dear lad, is far and away worse than loving nothing.

Actually he does. He loves to rape, beat, and stomp human beings into mush. He also has a backstory that does not excuse, but can explain his actions. He has also done nothing on the level of Gregor's atrocities.

Like killing and raping Rhaegar's wife, and killing his son. The very same Rhaegar who did him a great honor by personally knighting him. Ungrateful bastard.

There are many horrible, evil people in aSoIaF, but only Gregor manages to come off as entirely inhuman.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ssssssssspoilerssss.

Ned was a great guy, but the series has gotten to the point where I think of most of his good qualities as liabilities rather than things to be admired. My thoughts on him are mostly on how suicidally stupid he was. The idea I've always had of Ned was that he's a remnant of the past, like Robert. He had fought and won a ton of battles. He commanded the respect and admiration of the entire realm because of how honorable he was. You could always count on him making the right choice. He was obviously a good leader, because the entire North (including the Nights Watch but excluding the Boltons) trusted his leadership. He ruled the North well. People enjoyed following and fighting beside him, and it was a good lifestyle his entire life before he jumped into the cesspool of corruption and shit that Kings Landing became over time after Robert took over. Here, his honor and war capabilities/strategies were useless because people like Littlefinger and Lannisters had pretty much managed to f*ck, cheat, and lie their way to the top. Robert being an absentee leader let them take over.

I like the choice that Ned made. I would have done the same thing. If he hadn't, Tommen and Myrcella would have been put to death along with their entire family (including probably Tyrion). Where's the honor in being the one to initiate that? I don't consider Ned stupid. He just puts his honor before his life, like he always has.

Nephthys
And his "honorable decision" lead to a war that decimated the kingdom and killed thousands. One families life hardly compares.

Stealth Moose
Actually, that blame is misplaced. Joffrey did that.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, that blame is misplaced. Joffrey did that. +1

The blame belongs to Joffrey and the Lannisters more than it does Ned. If not them, then it would be Roberts fault for being a terrible king and husband resulting in corruption in Kings Landing and the unfaithfulness of Cersie which caused the problem in the first place. The blame definitely shouldn't be put on the one person who actually acted right in that situation.

Epicurus
Originally posted by Nephthys
HUGE SPOILER: Also, he killed Joffrey.
Wasn't Grandma Tyrell responsible for that?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Epicurus
Wasn't Grandma Tyrell responsible for that?

Co-conspirator.

Epicurus
^Ah yes. I forgot that bit about him explaining to Sansa how he plotted Joffrey's demise before turning her into his fake bastard daughter.

Stealth Moose
Tbh, I forgot he was involved too. The Tyrell's involvement stuck in my mind better.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Nephthys
And his "honorable decision" lead to a war that decimated the kingdom and killed thousands. One families life hardly compares. Littlefinger is getting thousands to millions of people killed for his own self-gain and because he's petty.

He's no Ramsay or Gregor, but he's a very bad person.

Victarion Greyjoy should sit the Iron Throne.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, that blame is misplaced. Joffrey did that.

If Ned hadn't of being so honorable and had such a suicidally swelled sense of fair-play he could have easily avoided it. Also stupid. "Derp, lets go tell Cersei I know everything, durrrr. Littlefingers got my back". 6_9 Him choosing to put more value in his honor and the lives of a few kids when the entire kingdom was on the line is hardly an admirable trait.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Littlefinger is getting thousands to millions of people killed for his own self-gain and because he's petty.

He's no Ramsay or Gregor, but he's a very bad person.

Victarion Greyjoy should sit the Iron Throne.

I didn't say he wasn't. The difference is that he caused that through intelligence and guile, whereas Ned caused it through naivety and idiocy.

Victarion is a loser. Asha has more swag in one teat than he does in his entire body.

ares834
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, that blame is misplaced. Joffrey did that.

thumb up

NemeBro
Ned probably didn't expect that he was in much danger because he viewed his death as too stupid a move to be a legitimate risk. And it was, but Joffrey is an easily-misled idiot.

Ned didn't cause it at all. Or do you blame women who are scantily clad and drunk when they get raped? Yes Nephthys I went there.

Victarion would tear her head off and **** the Dusky woman.

Nephthys
Ned knew that the situation could lead to war, hence why he sent Catelyn back telling her to prepare the bannermen for the possibility.

If a scantily clad women walks up to someone (and all his mates) who she knows is a rapist and tries to punch him in the face when the only person backing her up is someone almost certainly also a rapist, I'm not saying that its not a really awful thing when she gets raped, but I am saying that she's probably partially to blame and that that was a really, really stupid thing to do.

"Durr, I hate my brother. All of his gifts are poisoned. Let me just **** this whore he gave me and tell her all my secrets because being mute makes her 100% trustworthy durrrrrrrrrrr." 6_9

Stealth Moose
Some historian's fallacy stuff here, Neph.

Nephthys
Look at all of my shits. I give none of them away. They are mine.

Foreveeeeer!

Stealth Moose
"Why everyone was dumb: A historical primer, by Neph".

NemeBro
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ned knew that the situation could lead to war, hence why he sent Catelyn back telling her to prepare the bannermen for the possibility.

Lots of situations "could have" led to war, mostly due to Catelyn being a dumb *****. Ned was too moral to kill two innocent children (And one not so innocent child) to win the game of thrones.



Pictured: Nephthys propagating rape culture. thumb up

Would you find the rapists cool, Nephthys? Because the crimes of most rapists don't even begin to rival Littlefinger's.

Trusting Littlefinger is indeed one of Ned's biggest mistakes, and Varys chews him out for it, but why do you keep on trying to downplay the blame the person who actually committed the deed should receive? Why do you hate justice?



What are you implying about Victarion Greyjoy?

Nephthys
Originally posted by NemeBro
Lots of situations "could have" led to war, mostly due to Catelyn being a dumb *****. Ned was too moral to kill two innocent children (And one not so innocent child) to win the game of thrones.

Yeah, and that's why I'm criticising him. When mercy leads to a kingdom-shattering war, can it truly be called virtuous?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Pictured: Nephthys propagating rape culture. thumb up

Would you find the rapists cool, Nephthys? Because the crimes of most rapists don't even begin to rival Littlefinger's.

Trusting Littlefinger is indeed one of Ned's biggest mistakes, and Varys chews him out for it, but why do you keep on trying to downplay the blame the person who actually committed the deed should receive? Why do you hate justice?

Dude, you find rapists cool! haermm Your favorite character is basically a walking rape machine.

I find Littlefinger to be rather appealing because I can't help but admire the brilliance of his plans and some of his masterstroke moments. Also because he's so witty and never particularly unpleasant. I wouldn't find the rapists cool because I loath rapists entirely. The crimes of rapists pale in comparison to a lot of villains who I happen to think are cool and likeable. That just happens sometimes.

I'm not downplaying the blame. I'm just not particularly angry at Littlefinger for his blame in things.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What are you implying about Victarion Greyjoy?

He's a moron. Asha on the other hand is actually intelligent AND badass. Remember her dear husband and sweet suckling babe? One of the best scenes in the books imo. So much ownage to someone who deserved it so much.

Nephthys
By the way, I recommend reading this Lets Read of the entire series. Its pretty good, shes up to Feast atm.

FinalAnswer
http://fireden.net/4chan/images.4chan.org//vg/src/1367585314866.jpg

Nephthys
Its fun to see someone reacting to something and hear their thoughts on it as they read it. For instance, she totally didn't see the incest babies plot twist coming and her reaction was pretty hilarious. And she was determined to hate Jaime with the passion of a thousand suns. And got angry with she couldn't by the end of SoS.

FinalAnswer
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h443/jackflag1/GIFS/tumblr_m2oto7SGwf1qzv4vio1_400.gif

HueyFreeman
5RYG5SOonYc

Thought this was interesting

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