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So yeah, the strongest and most fearsome of dark lords versus the most powerful and wise of all jedi, at their peak of power(e.g Reborn Revan, NJO Luke etc.) here's a little info on all of them

Emperor Vitiate, as his title suggest he is the ruler of the "True" Sith empire and rule said empire with an iron fist up until he met his physical demise at the hands of the hero tython, even then he would not submit and instead of becoming one with the force, Vitiate chose to transfer his essence into another host, however his efforts were in vain as he would die years later.

Abilities.as a child Vitiate demonstrated a unique and immense affinity with force, such as channeling the dark side to torture his mother and snapping his adoptive fathers neck with a thought at the age of six, aswell as stripping a man of both his sanity and his power in the force at the age of 10, By the age of 13 Vitiate's power was so great that Marka Ragnos himself acknowleged him and granted the teenager the title of lord Vitiate. So obviously Vitiate is a powerful force user

Exar Kun. A jedi who fell to the dark-side and a true master of Form VI, even as a padawan Kun was considered to be immensely strong in the force by both his masters and his peers. after vanquishing Freedon Nadd from the galaxy, He along with his apprentice were declared the leaders of the new sith empire by the spirit of Marka Ragnos, however his dreams of an empire were crushed when his former apprentice led the republic to him forcing him to take drastic measures.

Abilities Even as a padawan Exar Kun was considered to be immensly strong in the force as well as displaying a tremendous amount of aptitude for the saber, as sith he delved in the knowledge of sith sorcery as well as gaining Freedon Nadd fabled amulet, despite all that his true power lay in his knowledge of Form VI: Niman as well as being the first to jedi to wield a saber-staff. So its obvious that Exar kun is a master duelist

Darth Sidious. Trained by the Sith Lord Darth Plagueis in the way of the dark-side, Palpatine became the driving force behind the clone wars outbreak orchestrating key events that lead up to the eventuall demise of the jedi order and republic, as well being the one that turned the chosen one to the dark-side, for a few years Palpatine would rule the galaxy until his apprentice betrayed him to save his son however this would not be the end of Darth Sidious.

Abilities. Often considered by many to be the full embodiment of the dark-side of the force, palpatine power was so great that he could create giant force storms that could destroy thousands, a master of the lightsaber palpatine alone was able to take on mace windu and three other as well as defeat the the grand jedi master himself Yoda.

Revan. A powerful Jedi trained by Jedi master turned Sith lord Kreia as well as two other master, during the mandalorian wars Revan along with his best friend Alek, were eager to join the battle in order to save the republic, the jedi order however deamed it to dangerous and ignored the jedi's pleas, angry at the council inaction Revan gathered a great number of jedi and asked them to join his cause, after rescueing the republic the tied began turn with the edge being on the his side, riding the momentum he lead his force to malachor v where the exile and her forces dealt a sickening and fatal blow to the mandalorian. a few years later he was betrayed by his apprentice and taken captive by jedi on dantooine where they wiped his memories and made him a scout in the service of the republic, he would later be retrained in the ways of the force and defeat his former apprentice who would later remark on how revan had grown stronger than he ever was, approximitly nine years later revan would leave into unknown space to fight the true sith.

Abilities. A Jedi master and a Sith lord revan was able to channel both sides of the force simultaneously, and as result Revan could unleash the force in its purest form, he could also choke his opponents as well as violently crush their organs he was also able to create a force lightning storm which could strike various opponents, using various acrobatic moves with his saber revan was a skilled practioner of Ataru.

Luke Skywalker. son of Anakin and Padme Skywalker. during the reign of the empire luke joined the rebel alliance in hopes of helping restore the republic, with his help the rebel alliance was able to defeat the Empire and restore peace to the galaxy, however the peace would not last as palpatine would return and an unknown threat would surface

Abilities. Trained by jedi master Obi-Wan Kenobi and former grand jedi master Yoda as well as being the son of the jedi turned sith Anakin Skywalker, Luke is by all means considered to be the strongest jedi of his if not of all time, able to use a great number of force power from the most basic of powers like force push to the most difficult powers such as using the force to create a massive force wave.

Yoda.According to legend Yoda was trained by Jedi master N'Kata Del Gormo. Yoda was the grand jedi master of the jedi order during the clone wars outbreak and a great number of year before that, during the clone wars yoda fought against his old apprentice count dooku many times, nearing the end of the clone wars the jedi were massacred by the clone troops a betrayal orchestrated by the sith lord Sidious who was masquerading as the chanccilor palpatine, Yoda dueled the dark lord in hopes of bringing an end to the sith, however, the jedi master underestimated the sith lord and was defeated, years later he would assist the son the Anakin Skywalker in bring about the end of the sith.

Abilities. Yoda was a powerful jedi, whos mastery in the force was without equal, his mastery of force telekinesis pull two ships at the same time an crash them into each other, a master of battle meditation and force valor a many other techniques, despite his age yoda was a master of ataru displaying knowledge in the highest levels of ataru.
so who would win between these six great jedi and sith.

Sith team stomps. Vitiate and Sidious are Force titans and Kun can amplify his rage hundreds of thousands of times etc.

Jedi make them work for it though.

Jedi. Without a Nexus, Revan should be able to stare down Vitiate, or at least keep him busy for the fight's duration. Sidious probably won't be able to defeat Luke, and Exar Kun is going to get his ass busted if he tries to face Yoda.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sith team stomps. Vitiate and Sidious are Force titans and Kun can amplify his rage hundreds of thousands of times etc.

Jedi make them work for it though.


You speak as though Yoda and Luke are not two of the greatest force users in the mythos. Revan is also superior to Exar Kun in my humble opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Jedi. Without a Nexus, Revan should be able to stare down Vitiate, or at least keep him busy for the fight's duration. Sidious probably won't be able to defeat Luke, and Exar Kun is going to get his ass busted if he tries to face Yoda.

Lol.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You speak as though Yoda and Luke are not two of the greatest force users in the mythos. Revan is also superior to Exar Kun in my humble opinion.

Luke is the strongest person on Team B, and a peer of Krayt. Do you think Krayt is superior to anyone on Team A?

If Krayt truly is a peer of Luke then yes, I'd say he is superior to everyone on Team A. Of course, I haven't seen anything to suggests he is Luke's peer so it's a moot point.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Lol.



Luke is the strongest person on Team B, and a peer of Krayt. Do you think Krayt is superior to anyone on Team A?

Krayt is most certainly not a peer of Luke. Wait...did you just imply Krayt is stronger than Yoda?
http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

I would consider Krayt a greater adversary than TotJ Exar regardless.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Krayt is most certainly not a peer of Luke. Wait...did you just imply Krayt is stronger than Yoda?
http://i48.tinypic.com/ksq4m.jpg

I figured I'd try slinging out random assertions.

Since that's par for the course around here.

Kun's the weak link, IMO. The Jedi team rolls.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kun's the weak link, IMO. The Jedi team rolls.

How in the dark pit of malachor is Exar kun the weakest link, isnt he considered a master of the double bladed light-saber and Niman? as well as defeating the spirit of freedon nadd and Ulic Qel Droma? sure he may not be as strong as Sidious or Vitiate but he's no push-over IMO

Amplifying your rage hundreds of thousands of times, being undefeated as a Sith, and being a master swordsman are suddenly unimportant if you aren't from live media.

Welcome to KMC.

Amplifying rage hundreds of thousands of times is hyperbolic, being undefeated during a reign of two years is unimpressive, and his feats with a blade don't compare to that of Luke or Yoda.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Amplifying rage hundreds of thousands of times is hyperbolic,

Funny, because people take Stover's clearly hyperbolic words as canon, but Kun's rage amplification, which is supported by an omniscient third party narrator, is flawed.



The extent to which Kun stomped any and all who came after him is pretty legendary. Ulic could only hang because of his sheer saber mastery and was explicitly weaker in the Force. Vodo, a six hundred year old battlemaster, has lost to Kun multiple times as a padawan (KotOR Guide, iirc), stalemated Ulic (again, narrator calls both 'master swordsmen' and neither has a peer aside from each other), and utterly wrecked Odan-Urr, soaking the latter's mastered Force Sever and killing him with a wave of his hand.

This also ignores the fact that, with the single-hand-hilt of his unique weapon, he smashed through Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" Force-aided walking stick and cleaved the Jedi Master in half. He is ridiculously strong, powerful, and deadly.




By which you mean there are more feats for Luke and Yoda, so you take quantity as an indicator of quality, and damn the rest.

Now THAT quote can be hyperbolic. Stronger than a lightsaber would imply that a wooden stick can destroy a lightsaber. The only thing it could do was deflect one.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
How in the dark pit of malachor is Exar kun the weakest link, isnt he considered a master of the double bladed light-saber and Niman? as well as defeating the spirit of freedon nadd and Ulic Qel Droma? sure he may not be as strong as Sidious or Vitiate but he's no push-over IMO
Kun's affinity for dueling impressed me, but other than that, he's not that grand.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Funny, because people take Stover's clearly hyperbolic words as canon, but Kun's rage amplification, which is supported by an omniscient third party narrator, is flawed.

I don't take Stover seriously at all.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Funny, because people take Stover's clearly hyperbolic words as canon, but Kun's rage amplification, which is supported by an omniscient third party narrator, is flawed.



The extent to which Kun stomped any and all who came after him is pretty legendary. Ulic could only hang because of his sheer saber mastery and was explicitly weaker in the Force. Vodo, a six hundred year old battlemaster, has lost to Kun multiple times as a padawan (KotOR Guide, iirc), stalemated Ulic (again, narrator calls both 'master swordsmen' and neither has a peer aside from each other), and utterly wrecked Odan-Urr, soaking the latter's mastered Force Sever and killing him with a wave of his hand.

This also ignores the fact that, with the single-hand-hilt of his unique weapon, he smashed through Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" Force-aided walking stick and cleaved the Jedi Master in half. He is ridiculously strong, powerful, and deadly.




By which you mean there are more feats for Luke and Yoda, so you take quantity as an indicator of quality, and damn the rest.

By that he means Yoda has mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and disarmed Darth Sidious in a duel (another master of all 7 forms and perhaps the greatest Sith blademaster in history). Luke also disarmed Sidious. So yes they both trump Exar Kun who's mastery is in Niman...not really a dueling centric form. Also Vodo got stomped because he was stupid enough to use his cane against Exar again.
Darth Malak's cybernetic enhancements were said to give him a large power advantage, even up to likes greater then that of Exar Kun's amulets?

Exar and Revan are similar, both Niman masters, both force powerhouses, but I'd give the advantage to Revan.

Kun has far better saber feats than Yoda or Luke. Namely, defeating a 600 year old battlemaster while merely a padawan, stalemating Ulic (who while cut off from the force can compete with notable Jedi in lightsaber dueling), not to mention inventing his own form (that was stated to be an improvement over the existing forms).

Exar Kun is easily the best lightsaber practitioner out of anybody in this thread.

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/GIFs%20and%20pictures/china_zps33aca6a1.gif

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Kun has far better saber feats than Yoda or Luke. Namely, defeating a 600 year old battlemaster while merely a padawan, stalemating Ulic (who while cut off from the force can compete with notable Jedi in lightsaber dueling), not to mention inventing his own form (that was stated to be an improvement over the existing forms).

Exar Kun is easily the best lightsaber practitioner out of anybody in this thread. http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo41/Iam-G07/My%20pics/universal-ryoma.gif

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/GIFs%20and%20pictures/china_zps33aca6a1.gif

f*ck

YOU

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Darth Malak's cybernetic enhancements were said to give him a large power advantage, even up to likes greater then that of Exar Kun's amulets?

Really?

Also I'd give Kun the edge over Revan.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really?

Also I'd give Kun the edge over Revan.

That's what some action figure description states. Malak has some chops. I am on the fence about Revan vs. Kun, on one hand KOTOR heavily implies Revan and Malak are not on the level of Kun...on the other hand Revan post KOTOR has proven to be very formidable.

Hmm, I'm nt sure how much I rate action figure descriptions.

I give it to Kun becuase I a) think he's a better duelist and b) think that even though Revan's Tutaminis is great Kun's amulet blasts are overwhelming.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hmm, I'm nt sure how much I rate action figure descriptions.

I give it to Kun becuase I a) think he's a better duelist and b) think that even though Revan's Tutaminis is great Kun's amulet blasts are overwhelming.

Eh how great of a duelist can you really be with Niman? Considering they are both Niman users I think it'll come down to who is better at utilizing force powers in the midst of Niman. I think Revan can deflect Kun's blasts.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Kun has far better saber feats than Yoda or Luke. Namely, defeating a 600 year old battlemaster while merely a padawan, stalemating Ulic (who while cut off from the force can compete with notable Jedi in lightsaber dueling), not to mention inventing his own form (that was stated to be an improvement over the existing forms).

Exar Kun is easily the best lightsaber practitioner out of anybody in this thread. https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8t-bCY5MDyA/UUFruUMJzpI/AAAAAAAABeE/5ad0EsrWX1s/s447/531602_321834197939863_1313289995_n.jpg

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh how great of a duelist can you really be with Niman?

As good as you anyone else.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh how great of a duelist can you really be with Niman? Considering they are both Niman users I think it'll come down to who is better at utilizing force powers in the midst of Niman. I think Revan can deflect Kun's blasts.

To be fair, Kun is an absolute beast with the lightsaber, and is only stalemated by Ulic, which is not a bad thing. There's no one in the era better than either.

Originally posted by ares834
As good as you anyone else.

Yeah, tell that to the 200 dead Jedi at the Battle of Geonosis.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To be fair, Kun is an absolute beast with the lightsaber, and is only stalemated by Ulic, which is not a bad thing. There's no one in the era better than either.

Which is kind of why I thought he'd be something of a Juyo master...Niman is the least martial of the forms.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah, tell that to the 200 dead Jedi at the Battle of Geonosis.

You're point? The idea that someone using Niman is inferior to a user using a different form solely due the their use of the form is ridiculous. What maters far more than what form they use is to what level they mastered it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah, tell that to the 200 dead Jedi at the Battle of Geonosis.



Which is kind of why I thought he'd be something of a Juyo master...Niman is the least martial of the forms.

Well, Niman base level is kinda meh. It's meant to be a crash course on all the forms just to get by, and is desired by the peaceful majority of PT Jedi, who haven't fought a Sith in a thousand years. Shatterpoint kind of talks about this from Mace's POV, as most of the victims of AotC were Niman users of questionable value.

That being said, a master level Niman literally knows every style but Makashi, giving the particularly talented and smart ones a large well to draw on and familiarity with most. Creativity and raw power can change it up too.

I always thought the idea that Niman was a pre-req for dual wielding or related to it was an EU snafu, but it perpetuated anyways.

EDIT: The idea that Exar Kun, Mr. Super Competitive and Headstrong, would use Niman kind of boggles the mind and might be a brain bug from Niman's dual wielding snafu.

I find that using Niman at low levels will with out a doubt be the end of any Jedi or sith willing to use it, however at higher levels of mastery Niman(Proven by Exar Kun) can quite deadly. Also where is it established that Revan uses Niman? Could be that you meant Ataru?

Drew said Niman.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Well, Niman base level is kinda meh. It's meant to be a crash course on all the forms just to get by, and is desired by the peaceful majority of PT Jedi, who haven't fought a Sith in a thousand years. Shatterpoint kind of talks about this from Mace's POV, as most of the victims of AotC were Niman users of questionable value.

I mean I doubt any of them were close to Kun, but the fact that every Niman user out of some 200 Jedi died at Geonosis is particularly telling about the form's efficiency.
"To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework, Form VI encourages integrating Force powers into combat."



That's true, but blademasters like Cin Draalig, Mace Windu, Yoda were Masters of all 7 forms, and even Dooku had enough knowledge and mastery of the 7 forms to teach Grievous well enough to kill Masters of said form.



Yeah agreed.



Very true. Then again this is the same Universe that has Coleman Trebor be a goddamned Soresu user.

I dunno I am not denying Exar Kun was perhaps the Master of Niman ever, but I just don't see a Master of Niman being superior to Luke and Yoda who are masters of multiple forms.

And I think you're making far too much of a deal about lightsaber forms. We've seen duelists who've mastered multiple forms bested by those who've mastered one or two several times.

Frankly, the feats and accolades are far more important than what forms a character has mastered. That's why I would put duelists like Luke before Exar Kun, because I find their feats more impressive not because they know more forms.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh how great of a duelist can you really be with Niman?

Really great. It just means you have to put in a lot more hours than with the other forms.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah, tell that to the 200 dead Jedi at the Battle of Geonosis.

To be fair they all used Form VI the way it was intended. It was meant to allow the user to focus on other things, while still being capable fighters. Niman is more than enough to handle a few thugs or battle droids but 20,000 droids was too much.

Exar Kun showed that Niman can potentially be just as good as anything else, but you need to work a lot harder to get it to that level. None of those Jedi ever expected they'd need to.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea that Exar Kun, Mr. Super Competitive and Headstrong, would use Niman kind of boggles the mind

Not really. It just shows that he saw Niman's full potential and was willing to put in the hours needed to unlock that potential.

He was as you say "Mr. Super Competitive and Headstrong" but he wasn't stupid.

Ulic Qel-Droma is imo the most technically gifted lightsaber practitioner in the mythos, and an incredibly powerful Force User to boot. Stalemating him is imo > than anything Luke's ever done. This was also before he started using his double bladed lightsaber and his new form (which was superior to the existing lightsaber forms), as well as going through a significant power boost.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Ulic Qel-Droma is imo the most technically gifted lightsaber practitioner in the mythos,

Ulic's really underrated it seems.

Holding off an enraged and powerful Jedi while cut off from the Force, physically frail and not having touched a lightsaber for years is hardly anything to laugh at.

There's no finer feat of pure talent with a lightsaber in the mythos. Not by a long shot. Unless you can name one...

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
There's no finer feat of pure talent with a lightsaber in the mythos.

I don't even know what you mean by this.

If you're asking for a force user who fights as well as Ulic without the force, then off course you won't get one as the vast majority of force users never are cut off from the force. However, that alone does not mean Ulic is the most skilled duelist ever. Plenty of other characters have accolades suggesting they are incredibly skilled such as Mace Windu or Kas'im.

Any feat that demonstrates technical brilliance.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Ulic's really underrated it seems.
funny you should mention Ulic, he was originally going to be on the Jedi team until I replaced him with Luke lol

Isn't Niman the form that's pretty crappy, but its said that an extremely high level of mastery grants you incredible prowess since you have no weaknesses and only strengths? Or is that Shii-Cho?

I've never seen that stated for either form... mmm

Yep, Niman is supposed to be balanced. No strengths but no weaknesses.

^ Yeah, Niman is supposed to be balanced, but in at least 3 different sources it was outright stated that masters of other styles consider it to be "insufficiently demanding". It was also stated that a Niman expert defeating a Makashi expert would be "nearly impossible", despite the former incorporating bits of every style(sans Juyo/Vaapad.)

I've always thought of Niman as one of the shittiest forms, tbh. /shrug

Just flipped through Jedi Path and saw the Makashi quote; it appears Lord Stark was correct. Pretty stupid TBH.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Ulic's really underrated it seems.

Holding off an enraged and powerful Jedi while cut off from the Force, physically frail and not having touched a lightsaber for years is hardly anything to laugh at.

There's no finer feat of pure talent with a lightsaber in the mythos. Not by a long shot. Unless you can name one...

Pre Vizsla.

I think I might have been thinking about Shii-Cho. Isn't that what Kit Fisto uses and is hardcore crazy good with?

Originally posted by ares834
Just flipped through Jedi Path and saw the Makashi quote; it appears Lord Stark was correct. Pretty stupid TBH.


Yeah that's strange. Wasn't Niman Darth Maul's original form which Plaguies praised his skills for?

Also Starkiller II used the form, as well as Ataro. So it seems to me Jar Kai users will be primarily Niman and Ataro users. And given some feats we saw in TCW Season 5, Jar Kai can definitely be a deadly form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think I might have been thinking about Shii-Cho. Isn't that what Kit Fisto uses and is hardcore crazy good with?

"For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either."- Master Kavar

Is this what you are thinking of?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah that's strange. Wasn't Niman Darth Maul's original form which Plaguies praised his skills for?

Also Starkiller II used the form, as well as Ataro. So it seems to me Jar Kai users will be primarily Niman and Ataro users. And given some feats we saw in TCW Season 5, Jar Kai can definitely be a deadly form.

Niman is great in conjunction with another form, particularly when using a dual bladed weapon but that's just it. Maul was a Master of Juyo and Niman. Starkiller was Ataru and Niman. Niman is just a pre-req for Jar' Kai if I am not mistaken.

Originally posted by Lord Stark



Niman is great in conjunction with another form, particularly when using a dual bladed weapon but that's just it. Maul was a Master of Juyo and Niman. Starkiller was Ataru and Niman. Niman is just a pre-req for Jar' Kai if I am not mistaken.


Ah right so your saying it's useless if it's used without evolving it into Jar Kai. Or blending it with another form. Gotcha.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea that Exar Kun, Mr. Super Competitive and Headstrong, would use Niman kind of boggles the mind

I imagine it went something like this:

VODO: Exar Kun, have you chosen a lightsabre form to specialize in?

EXAR: Yes Master Vodo. I shall specialize in Niman.

VODO: (thinks) Good. Perhaps he's finally learned to curb that competitive streak.

VODO: (aloud) A fine choice my apprentice.

EXAR: Thank you Master. I am certain I can raise the Form's level of bladework with sufficient training and when I do so the style's overall versatility will give me an edge.

VODO: (mutters) I should have known...

EXAR: What was that Master Vodo?

VODO: Nothing. Nothing at all.

lol

I think some people might be getting the wrong impression.

It's not that a Niman master can't be amazingly skillful--they certainly can be(examples have already been provided.) Heck, a master of any form can be a badass. The problem with Niman in particular is that it is 'insufficiently demanding' for what your getting. Why? Well for one, it takes a minimum of 10 years of non-stop practice exclusively with Niman to master it:
http://imgur.com/MYYM52Q
...And its major emphasis isn't even on bladework.

Compare this to some of the other, more useful, powerful, and all around better forums(namely Forms I, III, IV, and V) that only take a few years of practice to perfect, and you can see why training on Niman for no less than a decade seems like a complete waste:
http://imgur.com/a722QOl

There just isn't much 'bank for your buck':
http://imgur.com/XhDd2HR


Niman is, however, the foundation of Jar'Kai--which is likely its best-suited use throughout the mythos:
http://imgur.com/XXfA2Ok

The idea that Exar Kun used such an impractical form simply isn't compatible with the source material, so we can either question whether Exar Kun truly was simply a Niman master, or whether Niman was as ineffective as those sources would indicate.

Either way this doesn't really change anything.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pre Vizsla. He was the first I thought of as well. The fact that he isn't even a force-adept, yet possesses sufficient swordsmanship to give top-tier Jedi/Sith a run for their money, is astounding.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
The idea that Exar Kun used such an impractical form simply isn't compatible with the source material, so we can either question whether Exar Kun truly was simply a Niman master, or whether Niman was as ineffective as those sources would indicate.

Either way this doesn't really change anything. Again, Niman masters aren't 'ineffective'. Get that notion out of your head.

Niman as a form is simply more impractical to master(relative to many of the other forms) because of the time it takes to perfect in comparison to what you're ultimately attaining. Ten years is a LONG time--it didn't take Mace Windu much longer than that to both develop and master Vaapad, for example.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either."- Master Kavar

Is this what you are thinking of?

Nope. I know theres a form that crappy but becomes great with high levels of mastery and that this is specifically said about it, I just can't recall if its Niman or Shii-Cho.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pre Vizsla.

I meant out of Force Users (or people who were at one point Force Users).

Originally posted by Galan007
He was the first I thought of as well. The fact that he isn't even a force-adept, yet possesses sufficient swordsmanship to give top-tier Jedi/Sith a run for their money, is astounding.

Again, Niman masters aren't 'ineffective'. Get that notion out of your head.

Niman as a form is simply more impractical to master(relative to many of the other forms) because of the time it takes to perfect in comparison to what you're ultimately attaining. Ten years is a LONG time--it didn't take Mace Windu much longer than that to both develop and master Vaapad, for example.

Hence it being 'ineffective' in efficiently acquiring skill?

Plus as you said the bladework isn't its main priority, and would be at a massive disadvantage against Makashi.

Both are not compatible with what we know about Exar Kun who defeats 600 year old battlemasters in lightsaber battles while a padawan and was obsessed with acquiring power as quickly as possible.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope. I know theres a form that crappy but becomes great with high levels of mastery and that this is specifically said about it, I just can't recall if its Niman or Shii-Cho. I've read through the Lightsaber Combat entries in Jedi/Sith-Essential Guide, Jedi Path, Fightsaber, and TCW Encyclopedia, and didn't see that verbiage for either form.

An excerpt pulled from Juyo is the only thing that sounds remotely close to what you're recalling: "Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill."
srug

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Hence it being 'ineffective' in efficiently acquiring skill?

Plus as you said the bladework isn't its main priority, and would be at a massive disadvantage against Makashi.

Both are not compatible with what we know about Exar Kun who defeats 600 year old battlemasters in lightsaber battles while a padawan and was obsessed with acquiring power as quickly as possible. As was stated in multiple sources, before you acquaint yourself with Niman, you have already studied/mastered other forms of combat as well. No Jedi or Sith alive has only studied a single form--certainly Kun was no exception.

Eh, I just remember Cin Drallig calling Niman the least worthy of study of the seven forms, it seems odd then that the saber prodigy Exar Kun would then chose that as his form of choice.

Nah, Drallig says that its not the most worthy of study, but it is the most practical.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, I just remember Cin Drallig calling Niman the least worthy of study of the seven forms, it seems odd then that the saber prodigy Exar Kun would then chose that as his form of choice. I would imagine that Niman being the fundamental form for Jar'Kai would also come in handy with a double-bladed saber. This might be why Kun and Maul both employed it. /shrug

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, Drallig says that its not the most worthy of study, but it is the most practical. True, but he goes on to note Niman's perceived insufficientness in his very next breath.

Anywho, I can see why Niman may have been the most practical form in times of peace, but during the Clone Wars and beyond, forms that placed more emphasis on bladework would have been far more preferable--especially when you consider that they were also easier to perfect.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anywho, I can see why Niman may have been the most practical form in times of peace, but during the Clone Wars and beyond, forms that placed more emphasis on bladework would have been far more preferable--especially when you consider that they were also easier to perfect.

You know there is one thing we forgot to take into account about Niman and Exar Kun, Remember that jedi version of Niman incorporates SIX of the lightsaber forms not seven, The order only taught Juyo/Vaapad to jedi they thought were highly trained to resist the dark elements of Juyo/Vaapad Such as Mace Windu. So judging by that we could say that Exar Kun-being a Sith Lord as well as a great duelist - would incorporate Juyo(The Vaapad of the old republic) into his version of Niman.
I believe this could be the reason why Exar Kun was so ferocious as a lightsaber duelist as well as one of the many reasons he is NOT 'The weakest link' on the sith team

So you're implying Kun is greater than Vitiate or Sidious?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You know there is one thing we forgot to take into account about Niman and Exar Kun, Remember that jedi version of Niman incorporates SIX of the lightsaber forms not seven, The order only taught Juyo/Vaapad to jedi they thought were highly trained to resist the dark elements of Juyo/Vaapad Such as Mace Windu. So judging by that we could say that Exar Kun-being a Sith Lord as well as a great duelist - would incorporate Juyo(The Vaapad of the old republic) into his version of Niman.
I believe this could be the reason why Exar Kun was so ferocious as a lightsaber duelist as well as one of the many reasons he is NOT 'The weakest link' on the sith team Per Fightsaber, Niman is a combination of 4 Forms-- I, III, IV, V:
http://imgur.com/R4FEg9g
Both Makashi and Juyo are excluded.

I agree with the rest of your post, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So you're implying Kun is greater than Vitiate or Sidious?
NewGuy01, Im not implying anything, while as a duellist I do consider him above Vitiate,yes, but only because Vitiate has shown very little in terms of lightsaber prowess, in terms of force power..well there is a reason vitiate is emperor, however to say that he or Exar Kun are above Palpatine in terms of both lightsaber prowess and force potential is a bit of a stretch in my humble opinion

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
NewGuy01, Im not implying anything, while as a duellist I do consider him above Vitiate,yes, but only because Vitiate has shown very little in terms of lightsaber prowess, in terms of force power..well there is a reason vitiate is emperor, however to say that he or Exar Kun are above Palpatine in terms of both lightsaber prowess and force potential is a bit of a stretch in my humble opinion

You said that Exar Kun was not the weakest link on his side, which implies that he is greater than one of his teammates.

And yes, I would agree to the notion that Exar Kun is most definitely a better duelist than Vitiate, who doesn't even know how to properly hold a weapon.

And "a bit of a stretch" is something of an understatement, in my opinion. I mean, we're talking about the difference between a guy who blasts holes in walls and a guy who rips apart star fleets.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I imagine it went something like this:

VODO: Exar Kun, have you chosen a lightsabre form to specialize in?

EXAR: Yes Master Vodo. I shall specialize in Niman.

VODO: (thinks) Good. Perhaps he's finally learned to curb that competitive streak.

VODO: (aloud) A fine choice my apprentice.

EXAR: Thank you Master. I am certain I can raise the Form's level of bladework with sufficient training and when I do so the style's overall versatility will give me an edge.

VODO: (mutters) I should have known...

EXAR: What was that Master Vodo?

VODO: Nothing. Nothing at all.

I just imagine Makashi being the competitive duelist' form of choice. It certainly was for Dooku, and probably was integral in the techniques used by older characters such as Tulak Hord. In fact, the sheer amount of confirmed canon characters who don't use Makashi outside of the PT era is surprising, given its description as the pinnacle of lightsaber to lightsaber combat and an archaic tradition in Dooku's own time.

I seem to remember the very first Fightsaber article to be released (before the modified version which was later hosted on SW.com) indicated rather out of the blue that Exar Kun was a Makashi user. This was funny for two reasons: Kun predated the forms by many years, and Kun pretty much cleaved and smashed everything with his rage-induced strength, making him a better candidate for say, Form V.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You said that Exar Kun was not the weakest link on his side, which implies that he is greater than one of his teammates.

And yes, I would agree to the notion that Exar Kun is most definitely a better duelist than Vitiate, who doesn't even know how to properly hold a weapon.

And "a bit of a stretch" is something of an understatement, in my opinion. I mean, we're talking about the difference between a guy who blasts holes in walls and a guy who rips apart star fleets.
What makes you think that Vitiate doesn't even know how to properly hold a weapon? He knows how to use a lightsaber but he is so powerful that he doesn't feels the need to keep one.

---

Sith Lords are most likely to win this contest. Vitiate and Sidious put together are too overwhelming for virtually any contest, IMO.

When was the last time Vitiate ever used a blade?

I get that he doesn't need one, but still; he has never used one in any source I have seen, which includes TOR and Revan.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When was the last time Vitiate ever used a blade?

I get that he doesn't need one, but still; he has never used one in any source I have seen, which includes TOR and Revan.
Two events:

1. Picks up Revan's lightsaber, activates it and moves towards Revan to impale him. However, Surik knocks out the lightsaber from Vitiate's grasp just on time with a saber throw attack.

2. During second duel with HoT.

Fair enough. I did forget that part, perhaps because it was just so trivial.

It's like Thor picking up a toothpick on his way to stab a snail.

He uses a lightsaber while possessing Kira too, even does a fancy twirl. Also all his clones use lightsabers in the final fight plus he is wearing one.

That fancy twirl implies sophistication, Vitiate seems to have good grasp of lightsaber dueling arts by this time.

Yes, fancy twirls imply mastery.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I just imagine Makashi being the competitive duelist' form of choice. It certainly was for Dooku, and probably was integral in the techniques used by older characters such as Tulak Hord. In fact, the sheer amount of confirmed canon characters who don't use Makashi outside of the PT era is surprising, given its description as the pinnacle of lightsaber to lightsaber combat and an archaic tradition in Dooku's own time.

I seem to remember the very first Fightsaber article to be released (before the modified version which was later hosted on SW.com) indicated rather out of the blue that Exar Kun was a Makashi user. This was funny for two reasons: Kun predated the forms by many years, and Kun pretty much cleaved and smashed everything with his rage-induced strength, making him a better candidate for say, Form V.

Kun doesn't pre-date Form II...it's origins are at least as old as the Great Hyperspace War.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kun doesn't pre-date Form II...it's origins are at least as old as the Great Hyperspace War.

Kun appeared in TOTJ comics in 1994-1995.

The original Fightsaber article is from SW Insider 62, from 2002.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kun appeared in TOTJ comics in 1994-1995.

The original Fightsaber article is from SW Insider 62, from 2002.

Oh, but people's forms are often established after their original source material don't they?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Oh, but people's forms are often established after their original source material don't they?

No, the point is that when Kun was conceived and shown in media, lightsaber forms simply did not exist. In fact, in the films they don't exist either; they are extrapolated from what little dueling we see in AotC by outside experts and then later adopted by EU as a whole.

From an objective standpoint, there's no reason to assume Kun knows Makashi despite their claims, which have since been omitted in all reproductions of the material. I think a lot of the forms have become foolishly misunderstood since then, such as the Niman/Jar'Kai confusion, the original confusion with Shen/Djem So (they're essentially two different forms now), Stover's handling of Vaapad being completely different from Juyo, which it is based on, Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover), and then you have The Cestus Deception telling us Form 1 is this primal animalistic form and Kit Fisto is a badass for using it, when it was conceived of as a beginner's form and predates lightsaber usage in the mythos.

This all gives me a headache.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You said that Exar Kun was not the weakest link on his side, which implies that he is greater than one of his teammates.

And yes, I would agree to the notion that Exar Kun is most definitely a better duelist than Vitiate, who doesn't even know how to properly hold a weapon.

Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, fancy twirls imply mastery.

ZqVQT9Det6Q

Man, Duncan Macleod really let himself go.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO. personaly I can't picture him having spent much time if any training in sabers. he was mind dominating sith lords before he had pubes, with that kind of power at such a young age it doesn't seem like he would have had much use for it or felt like he needed it, especially with his focus being on more esoteric aspects of the force.

Originally posted by Raptor22
personaly I can't picture him having spent much time if any training in sabers. he was mind dominating sith lords before he had pubes, with that kind of power at such a young age it doesn't seem like he would have had much use for it or felt like he needed it, especially with his focus being on more esoteric aspects of the force.
Hmm, well to be honest that wouldn't surprise me, I mean, while I don't think Vitiate would be THAT foolish, there have been times where a Jedi of great renowned like The Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig or the fallen dark jedi Desssan(even Tavion was far more impressive in the Jedi Academy games compared to her master)were supposedly very powerful( I personally call it knowledgeable) but their force abilities were very basic which was understandable with Desssan because he was a padawan but with Drallig it was very surprising especially when you take into consideration the fact that he was Jedi master. So your assumption holds some degree of truth.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, the point is that when Kun was conceived and shown in media, lightsaber forms simply did not exist. In fact, in the films they don't exist either; they are extrapolated from what little dueling we see in AotC by outside experts and then later adopted by EU as a whole.

From an objective standpoint, there's no reason to assume Kun knows Makashi despite their claims, which have since been omitted in all reproductions of the material. I think a lot of the forms have become foolishly misunderstood since then, such as the Niman/Jar'Kai confusion, the original confusion with Shen/Djem So (they're essentially two different forms now), Stover's handling of Vaapad being completely different from Juyo, which it is based on, Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover), and then you have The Cestus Deception telling us Form 1 is this primal animalistic form and Kit Fisto is a badass for using it, when it was conceived of as a beginner's form and predates lightsaber usage in the mythos.

This all gives me a headache.

I agree there has been a lot of confusion and misunderstanding when it comes to the various forms and it is very annoying.

This bit here though:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover)

I don't see any problem with those. Makashi was designed specifically for lightsabre dueling and only dueling. It makes sense that it wouldn't be so good against blaster fire as it's not designed for that.

The "sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY" bit also makes sense. Makashi focuses heavily on precision moves. Precision moves by their very nature are meant to be small and small moves can't build up a lot of momentum.

As I've said before this doesn't mean a Makashi user is helpless against "KINECTIK ENERGY." Say you're a Makashi user and I'm a Djem So user, it's not that you can't beat me, you certainly can. It just means you can't let the duel become a head-to-head slugfest. There are other ways you can win, all it really means is I have one more option available than you.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QitMTZrZ0g

I think this video gives a good analysis of his lightsabre skills (7:47 for the relevant point).

The fact that both are brain bugs entitely absent from the creation of the form is the big issue. Also, blasters predate Form II. If Form dictated one's deflection capabilities, Kit Fisto would have died at Geonosis.

Regarding kinetic energy, Dooku routinely one hand blocks powerful attacks from major fighters in the series and is rarely pushed back. It's a generalisation of the form that is also stupid because brute strength swinging is more common and older than refined technique.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


The "sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY" bit also makes sense. Makashi focuses heavily on precision moves. Precision moves by their very nature are meant to be small and small moves can't build up a lot of momentum.

As I've said before this doesn't mean a Makashi user is helpless against "KINECTIK ENERGY." Say you're a Makashi user and I'm a Djem So user, it's not that you can't beat me, you certainly can. It just means you can't let the duel become a head-to-head slugfest. There are other ways you can win, all it really means is I have one more option available than you..


Finally someone gets it.

I'm getting really fed up of the "LULZ Dooku loses because Juyo has even more Kinetic energy than Djem So!!" type argument consistently used against Count Dooku.

It all began from 1 stupid line in the ROTS novel which people have completely blown out of proportion and context.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Finally someone gets it.

I'm getting really fed up of the "LULZ Dooku loses because Juyo has even more Kinetic energy than Djem So!!" type argument consistently used against Count Dooku.

It all began from 1 stupid line in the ROTS novel which people have completely blown out of proportion and context.

Thanks.

I agree it's very annoying how misinterpreted and exaggerated that line has become.

Lightsaber forms have always been incredibly dumb. Frankly, I've always thought each Jedi should craft their own style to suit their needs like Vader did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That fancy twirl implies sophistication, Vitiate seems to have good grasp of lightsaber dueling arts by this time.

Originally posted by ares834
Lightsaber forms have always been incredibly dumb. Frankly, I've always thought each Jedi should craft their own style to suit their needs like Vader did.


I agree.

Originally posted by ares834

How come Vitiate was able to duel HoT with a lightsaber while possessing Kira and himself?

Originally posted by ares834
Lightsaber forms have always been incredibly dumb.

Beg your pardon but how so?

Originally posted by ares834
Frankly, I've always thought each Jedi should craft their own style to suit their needs like Vader did.

And how did Vader do that? He took the style he'd mastered as Anakin (Djem So) and modified it by adding techniques from other forms as well as "tweaking" said techniques.

I mean, how are they supposed to "craft their own style to suit their needs" without a platform to build on? They need something to start with.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How come Vitiate was able to duel HoT with a lightsaber while possessing Kira and himself?

Because he was at least competent with a lightsabre. No one's claiming he didn't know one end from the other or anything. He just wasn't a particularly brilliant duelist.

Even in his final battle with the Hero of Tython he relied mostly on his Force powers.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but how so?

Because they are so damn limited. Take a real martial art like say Song Moo Kwan, it's not limited to basically one aspect. Each of its practitioners can create their own variant of it. They can use more finesse and go for pressure points, they can simply prefer to use strong attacks, they can use flurries of fast attacks, etc...

It's not limited to one aspect such as speed, strength, defense, etc like the lightsaber forms are. Yes, there are many different styles of marital arts but they can't be categorized by something as simple or rudimentary as this one is strong but slow or this one is defensive their difference rather lie in the stances and techniques used.

Originally posted by ares834
Because they are so damn limited. Take a real martial art like say Song Moo Kwan, it's not limited to basically one aspect. Each of its practitioners can create their own variant of it. They can use more finesse and go for pressure points, they can simply prefer to use strong attacks, they can use flurries of fast attacks, etc...

It's not limited to one aspect such as speed, strength, defense, etc like the lightsaber forms are. Yes, there are many different styles of marital arts but they can't be categorized by something as simple or rudimentary as this one is strong but slow or this one is defensive their difference rather lie in the stances and techniques used.

I see, that makes sense.

Thanks.

Aren't some martial arts exactly like that though? Like the chinese ones based off of animals or something?

Sorta. But the five forms are supposed to come together to create one full style.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, I just remember Cin Drallig calling Niman the least worthy of study of the seven forms, it seems odd then that the saber prodigy Exar Kun would then chose that as his form of choice. I know it's a bit late, but this explains why such esteemed swordsman, like Kun and Maul, would have honed their Niman skills:
http://i.imgur.com/ZzgFiVz.jpg

Niman being essential to dual-bladed combat is pretty much the only reason Force-users bothered to study it at all.

^^^

Good information. Thanks for sharing.

Ditto. I really think they ought to just rename Niman though, because it clearly got mixed in with the Diplomat's Form, and should not itself have any relation to such form.

Anyway, since Revan and Vitiate are *not* on an extremely powerful Dark Nexus this time, the odds should more or less be evened out. Same probably goes for Yoda and Palpatine.

Then Luke takes Exar Kun to the curb, and the Jedi win the overall gambit.

Sith Emperor is extremely potent and dangerous in any setting. He has the hype of being the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy as long as he lasted, this is very telling.

Putting Sith Emperor and Sidious (Prime) together in a duel is too much for any adversary in the mythos.

The Jedi are outgunned.

All Sith emperor can is just stay in one place and channel direct attacks in attempt to overpower. No creativity or skill to outwit opponent, just give all you have and hope it works. Good tactic against mooks. He would be even worse ally, when it comes to team cooperation, noo experience whatsoever in that regard.

Originally posted by Arhael
All Sith emperor can is just stay in one place and channel direct attacks in attempt to overpower. No creativity or skill to outwit opponent, just give all you have and hope it works. Good tactic against mooks. He would be even worse ally, when it comes to team cooperation, noo experience whatsoever in that regard.
Emperor ran a whole Sith Empire with brilliance. He is a great leader, manager/supervisor and coordinator.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor ran a whole Sith Empire with brilliance. He is a great leader, manager/supervisor and coordinator.
And it relates to fighting as a team how?

In case they need an operations manager.

Vitiate can conjure clones and dominate minds. Its not like his only tactic is spamming lightning.

But Vitiate can't dominate minds because nolimitsfallacy/idontlikehim/revanmadehimlookweaker/soandsohasastrongwill.

Sith Emperor doesn't needs much of tactical and technical brilliance during combat situations due to his enormous power. He just outright outguns any opponent in his way with his incredible powers.

However, SWTOR(E) notes that Sith Emperor is a brilliant tactician as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
And it relates to fighting as a team how?
Management role requires decent team-building and managing skills. In short, prerequisite.

Sith Emperor isn't a mindless being, he is calculative and practical.

Analogy: When Scourge backstabbed Meetra, this diverted Revan's attention and Sith Emperor immediately took advantage. He even pointed out to Scourge that his actions were less then satisfactory.

Sith Emperor held on to his thrown due to combination of his sheer brilliance and power. Expect Sith Emperor to be a good at teamwork.

If Luke lost to some random guy like Desann and needed to be amped to fight DE Palpatine (yes I'm aware he's legions stronger than Kun), then how exactly is he going to beat Kun?

Originally posted by carthage
If Luke lost to some random guy like Desann and needed to be amped to fight DE Palpatine (yes I'm aware he's legions stronger than Kun), then how exactly is he going to beat Kun?
You're a funny guy, WB.

Just making an observation, his strength seems kind of out of place. How the **** do you go from beating Vader to losing to a featless swordsman like Desann?

He didn't need an amp to defeat Palpatine in a duel. He beat him fair and square (taken from the audio drama):

Originally posted by carthage
Just making an observation, his strength seems kind of out of place. How the **** do you go from beating Vader to losing to a featless swordsman like Desann?
I don't know about the instances you're referring to as my interest in the era is minimal at best, but LOTF (Legacy of the Force) and FOTJ (Fate of the Jedi) are widely regarded as extremely inconsistent with regards to the power levels as several characters are equipped with plot armor.

Desann is in neither of those sagas. ^
lol.

He said he wasn't referring to Desann

lol

Ant is desperate

Originally posted by carthage
Ant is desperate
I knew there was a reason I always liked you.

You sure it wasn't because of my boyish charm?

Get a room before they have to lock the thread and call a cleaner.

Originally posted by carthage
You sure it wasn't because of my boyish charm?
I like the girlish side of you better.

Originally posted by carthage
Ant is desperate
1. When I left SWF, you can't imagine how happy I was I wouldn't have to deal with you and Jack again. Imagine how heartbroken I am now.
2. What am I desperate about?

Desann fight:

pHz7kHng2-E

12.35.

Luke is the most inconsistent character in Star Wars.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/thumbnail_570x321/2012/04/dawson_crying.jpg

I'm going to get a restraining order on you so you can't get as close as 5 topics from me. I swear.

However, SWTOR(E) notes that Sith Emperor is a brilliant tactician as well.


Management role requires decent team-building and managing skills. In short, prerequisite.
Ok. Next time I want to beat a bunch of thugs on the street, I'll make sure I take my manager with me.

lol

Originally posted by Arhael
Ok. Next time I want to beat a bunch of thugs on the street, I'll make sure I take my manager with me.
You should pay attention to entire point of mine instead of nitpicking within it for your amusement.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Emperor isn't a mindless being, he is calculative and practical.

Analogy: When Scourge backstabbed Meetra, this diverted Revan's attention and Sith Emperor immediately took advantage. He even pointed out to Scourge that his actions were less then satisfactory.

Sith Emperor held on to his thrown due to combination of his sheer brilliance and power. Expect Sith Emperor to be a good at teamwork.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You should pay attention to entire point of mine instead of nitpicking within it for your amusement.

Can't follow your analogy. He didn't even see Meetra's lightsaber throw coming. With such lousy battle awareness he is more of a liability than help.

Originally posted by Arhael
Can't follow your analogy. He didn't even see Meetra's lightsaber throw coming. With such lousy battle awareness he is more of a liability than help.
That analogy is the real thing; one Sith distracted Revan and the other Sith (Emperor) capitalized on the opportunity. This is good example of cooperation/teamwork.

As far as your argument is concerned, you overlooked some key facts:

1. Meetra was far from Emperor's position and busy with the Imperial Guard
2. Emperor was busy with Revan
3. Meetra's attack came as a surprise from such a distance while events were unfolding in the manner as they did

As far as your argument is concerned, you overlooked some key facts:

1. Meetra was far from Emperor's position and busy with the Imperial Guard
2. Emperor was busy with Revan
3. Meetra's attack came as a surprise from such a distance while events were unfolding in the manner as they did
These key points only enforce that while Vitiate focuses on one opponent, the other opponent can strike him down.

Originally posted by Arhael
These key points only enforce that while Vitiate focuses on one opponent, the other opponent can strike him down.
Not so fast:

http://s3.postimg.org/etzlwbb6b/Fight4.png

Sith Emperor can focus on multiple opponents and defeat them simultaneously if he wants to.

It is unwise of you to just consider the dynamics of encounter between Revan and Sith Emperor and make judgments about Sith Emperor from it. You are not focusing on the bigger picture.

If Sith Emperor was so easy to take down, he wouldn't have lasted so long as Emperor of a Sith Empire since some of his followers would just have ganged-up on him and usurped him from the throne.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not so fast:

http://s3.postimg.org/etzlwbb6b/Fight4.png

Sith Emperor can focus on multiple opponents and defeat them simultaneously if he wants to.

It is unwise of you to just consider the dynamics of encounter between Revan and Sith Emperor and make judgments about Sith Emperor from it. You are not focusing on the bigger picture.

I don't see how attacking with lightning a group of Jedi standing in one place proves Vitiate's awareness of entire battle. It's just an AOE attack, it doesn't demonstrate good awareness during a fight.
In any case AOE is unwise. Vitiate will be lucky to overpower any single opponent with concentrated attack, spreading it on several opponents will reduce potency.


That does not prove anything.

But actually Jedi team has the same problem here. Revan demonstrated his incompetence, when instead of helping his team mates to quickly get read of guards, he bull-rushed Vitiate alone. On top of that we know that Vitiate can overpower Revan for sure. So unless Luke and Yoda can babysit Revan or boost him with battle meditation/battle-meld, it is a 2vs3 fight.

According to George Lucas Luke is Sidious + Sidious. I'd put Sidious above Exar Kun so right there Luke defeats most of team one while Yoda and Revan battle the Sith Emperor. They may prevail on their own, given Yoda's immense power is approaching HoT but of course his advanced age and limited size is what got on his way with the equally powerful Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
I don't see how attacking with lightning a group of Jedi standing in one place proves Vitiate's awareness of entire battle. It's just an AOE attack, it doesn't demonstrate good awareness during a fight.
Actually Vitiate acted like a PRO in this contest; he didn't grant the Jedi Strike Team a chance to charge him, he quickly bombarded the entire Jedi Strike Team to submission and this was a good decision on his part.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case AOE is unwise. Vitiate will be lucky to overpower any single opponent with concentrated attack, spreading it on several opponents will reduce potency.
Vitiate's powers aren't easy to handle even for any other individual in the mythos or should expected to be. If Vitiate bogs down the entire Team 1 with his powers, his companions would have ample time for eliminating Team 1.

Originally posted by Arhael
That does not prove anything.
I disagree.

Originally posted by Arhael
But actually Jedi team has the same problem here. Revan demonstrated his incompetence, when instead of helping his team mates to quickly get read of guards, he bull-rushed Vitiate alone. On top of that we know that Vitiate can overpower Revan for sure. So unless Luke and Yoda can babysit Revan or boost him with battle meditation/battle-meld, it is a 2vs3 fight.
Revan and his companions couldn't risk a continuous battle against hordes of Vitiate's powerbase with Vitiate continuously augmenting his minions in the process. Revan had decided the entire course of action prior to the actual duel; he would keep Vitiate busy for a while and his companions would attempt to seal the throne room and join him in his effort to assassinate Vitiate.

Unfortunately for Revan, Vitiate was too powerful even for combined might of Revan, Meetra and Scourge and didn't foresee Scourge's betrayal. This have been noted in the novel.

Unfortunately for them, Vitiate was too powerful even for combined might of Revan, Meetra and Scourge. This have been noted in the novel.
We don't know this. Scourge even says he doesn't know.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
We don't know this. Scourge even says he doesn't know.
Here is a firm statement:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

It should be clear to everybody that Sith Emperor isn't just better then Revan, he is among the most powerful Force-users in the mythos on the whole.

Sith Emperor is/was so powerful that he 'easily' subdued the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga on a neutral setting.

Team 1.

Is that not the author writing in Scourge's third person perspective?

Sure...but someone like Caedus is more powerful (obv).

I'm so impressed. Not like Luke, Sidious, Plagueis, Caedus, Yoda, etc couldn't this. *note the sarcasm*

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure...but someone like Caedus is more powerful (obv).



Not obv.

I'd give Caedus the nod as well, despite the hate I have for him.

Vitiate would go down hard against Caedus's speed and lightsaber prowess.

Caedus would go down hard to Vitiates telepathy, TK or lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Caedus would go down hard to Vitiates telepathy, TK or lightning.
Caedus' TK feats are vastly greater than Vitiate's.