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Who would win in a battle to the death?

Darth Zannah as of Dynasty of Evil

Obi-Wan Kenobi as of Revenge of the Sith

Zannah stomps.

Obi-Wan, he outstrips Zannah widely in both defensive and offensive skill, has significantly better TK feats, has significantly better physical feats, and his mental fortitude is very high.

Force, Zannah, sabers, Kenobi. All out... I'd say Zannah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
he outstrips Zannah widely in both defensive and offensive skill,

Nah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
has significantly better TK feats,

Nah.

If Zannah had more offensive force based abilities I'd give it to her, as Kenobi's weakness to force based attacks should be her forte. But she doesn't and she's massively outscaled in other feats. Kenobi takes her with negligible difficulty, had Zannah a few notable TK feats in her prime I'd give it to her with no qualms.

Zannah disintegrated her cousins arm, blocked the Force Storm, snapped two Jedi's necks and levitated as an untrained child. Its apparent that she would be superior in TK to all that as a Sith Lord with infinitely greater Force Mastery. Especially since she did pulp a woman with a Force Push and Bane didn't believe he could overcome her with TK. That Bane wasn't able to overcome her in the Force definitely suggests a higher level of Force power than Kenobi, who would be reamed by Bane.

Has Zannah ever disintegrate limbs in combat? Or snap an opponents neck in combat? I'm genuinely curious...

Other than those times, not to my knowledge. Zannahs been in only a few actual fights, so shes never really been in a position to do that stuff. Though as I said, I don't see a reason why she shouldn't be able to replicate that stuff as a vastly better trained Sith Lord.

Naturally Zannah was more of a sorcerer than anything else which is why we don't really see many TK feats from her, but you can either assume that she's got amazing TK given how powerful she is, or she doesn't simply because she doesn't need to with her other, superior powers. Take your pick.

Zannah. I could see Obi-Wan winning in a lightsaber duel, but not in all out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah disintegrated her cousins arm, blocked the Force Storm, snapped two Jedi's necks and levitated as an untrained child. Its apparent that she would be superior in TK to all that as a Sith Lord with infinitely greater Force Mastery. Especially since she did pulp a woman with a Force Push and Bane didn't believe he could overcome her with TK. That Bane wasn't able to overcome her in the Force definitely suggests a higher level of Force power than Kenobi, who would be reamed by Bane.

She blew up her cousin's arm, snapped the necks of two Jedi who didn't have active force defenses up, and pulped a woman with a Force Wave.

V.S

Invoking a tidal wave with TK, ripping down an enormous slab of durasteel from the ceiling, smashing droids with Durge's personal starship, deflecting TK blasts from Anakin...


I see a marginal superiority from Kenobi.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She blew up her cousin's arm, snapped the necks of two Jedi who didn't have active force defenses up, and pulped a woman with a Force Wave.

V.S

Invoking a tidal wave with TK, ripping down an enormous slab of durasteel from the ceiling, smashing droids with Durge's personal starship, deflecting TK blasts from Anakin...


I see a marginal superiority from Kenobi.

You missed a few of Zannahs feats there. Most of which happened as an untrained child. Like defending against a wave of planet-wide destruction or flying.

When did Kenobi invoke a tidal wave?

Darth Bane couldn't overpower Zannah with TK. Advantage: Zannah.

It's important to look at their defensive capabilities as they are ultimately used in conjunction with their more offensive attacks (Ataru for Kenobi) (Sorcery for Zannah). A lot of people claim that Kenobi's defensive capabilities are higher than Zannah's, while I'd argue there isn't very much disparity between their defensive dueling capabilities. Based on accolades and focus, Obi-wan's application of Soresu is superior in raw skill, however this is largely balanced out by the more defensive nature of Zannah's weapon as well as her superior speed. Obi-wan was being overwhelmed by Grievous's speed in ROTS while Zannah was holding her own against Bane, who is faster than Grievous. Ultimately I feel there is little to no disparity in their defensive capabilities as duelists. As they are primarily defensive duelists I don't feel that Kenobi can penetrate Zannah's defenses with Ataru, and Zannah definitely can't penetrate Kenobi's defense by exploiting openings. As such they are at an impasse as duelists. What will come into play here is their respective force abilities. In telekinesis, Zannah impresses me more given that she has snapped the necks of Jedi, disintegrated her cousin's arm, and Bane never overpowered her with TK despite his telekinetic prowess. Kenobi moving Durge's ship is impressive, however it doesn't quite compare to one shotting Jedi, and Kenobi's telekinetic defense isn't that advanced. I think what'll get him though is Zannah's illusions. Zannah's illusions are very potent, being able to bring a powerful Jedi Knight to his knees in terror instantly before her peak with this ability, and being able to casually oneshot a powerful dark Jedi into a coma. The people who have ever resisted her illusions were Darth Bane and arguably Darth Cognus, however Darth Bane has some of the best mental feats in the entire mythos, and Cognus's superadvanced precog and her force suppression would negate much of Zannah's hold over her. Obi-wan Kenobi, while no doubt being strong of mind, ultimately has too much that can be used against him in this manner. The three women he's loved have all died in his arms, his master was killed, his apprentice turned to the dark side and hated him, and his entire order was wiped out. With all of these negative experiences, Zannah's illusions would bring him down or at the very least open him up to an attack.

In a saber fight with no force abilities used, yes Obi-wan would eventually overcome Zannah. Obi-wan takes the saber fight.

In a force fight with no saber attacks used, I see nothing that Kenobi could pressure Zannah with, while her illusions have a very high chance of being effective on him. Zannah takes the force fight.

In an all out fight though, the impasse in a duel would really make the definitive factor whether or not Kenobi could overcome her illusions, and from what I've shown, Kenobi at the very least would be opened up to a finishing move from Zannah. I am confident in saying Zannah takes the all-out.

How old was Zannah's cousin? And, the thing about the snapping of the Jedi's necks... didn't they just come out of the smoke when she did that? It's not like they were expecting it. And, although that is extremely impressive, I think it tells a lot that she never has used that ability again... (as far as I know...)

Originally posted by King Joker
How old was Zannah's cousin? And, the thing about the snapping of the Jedi's necks... didn't they just come out of the smoke when she did that? It's not like they were expecting it. And, although that is extremely impressive, I think it tells a lot that she never has used that ability again... (as far as I know...)
Well it could be because everyone Zannah faced after that was either more powerful, or had a favorable circumstance.

Sarro Xaj was pressing Zannah very hard in a duel, and was likely more powerful than the two Jedi whose necks were snapped considering his selection as someone to take the last Sith on.

Set Harth may or may not have been more powerful than the two Jedi, but Zannah was toying with him. She kept their fight dueling-centric to evaluate his skill level, while she finished it off with a mental attack to test his mind. Zannah's intentions were not to kill him, but rather to evaluate his dueling abilities and strength of mind.

Darth Bane. This one is pretty self explanatory.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well it could be because everyone Zannah faced after that was either more powerful, or had a favorable circumstance.

Sarro Xaj was pressing Zannah very hard in a duel, and was likely more powerful than the two Jedi whose necks were snapped considering his selection as someone to take the last Sith on.

And Kenobi would obviously be pressing Zannah hard in a duel as well. So I doubt she would be able to snap his neck like that then...

Originally posted by King Joker
And Kenobi would obviously be pressing Zannah hard in a duel as well. So I doubt she would be able to snap his neck like that then...
Obi-wan is not an offensive power house, while that was Sarro's specialization.

Zannah on the other hand has not reached her prime by this point.

Obi-Wan is 1 no Sarro Jah, nevermind BM'd Sarro Jah, and 2 is a defence oriented sowrdsman who would be unlikely to press.

And dmb brings up an interesing point. Obi-Wan defences were technically overloaded by grievous's 20 strikes per second. Zannah's defenses meanwhile held against the far faster Bane, so it's pretty clear that Zannah's Soresu is more effective than Kenobi's, at least when dealing with raw speed.

Kenobi's offense is more than competent, he could easily press if not outdo Zannah.

He fought evenly with Anakin which is a better feat than Zannah narrowly beating Bane in a PIS duel. Yes the duel with Anakin was PIS as well, but do not question my wisdom

Kenobi lacks the offensive ability to press Zannah hard in a duel. If she can defend successfully against Bane then Kenobi's rather flaccid in comparison. Zannah is faster than him imo and thats enough for me to believe she'd come out on top in a lightsaber duel.

Also her cousin was like, 13 or something. And the Jedi were aware of her I believe, but obviously not expecting it. She does levitate one of them while killing him in the comic though.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi's offense is more than competent, he could easily press if not outdo Zannah.

He fought evenly with Anakin which is a better feat than Zannah narrowly beating Bane in a PIS duel. Yes the duel with Anakin was PIS as well, but do not question my wisdom
Obi-wan's offense is not on the same caliber as Bane's though. Zannah has defended against speeds greater than Kenobi's defense was capable of holding against. He is not "easily" doing anything to her in a duel except defending.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Obi-wan is not an offensive power house, while that was Sarro's specialization.

Zannah on the other hand has not reached her prime by this point.
He would be on the offensive since she would only be using Soresu, and he is near mastery with Ataru, and knows some Shii-cho. Kenobi is a master duelist so he would be pressing Zannah hard regardless.

Originally posted by King Joker
He would be on the offensive since she would only be using Soresu, and he is near mastery with Ataru, and knows some Shii-cho. Kenobi is a master duelist so he would be pressing Zannah hard regardless.
Zannah is a more competent combatant by DOE however, and it is not in Kenobi's nature as a duelist to fling himself at Zannah and never let up. He may have an offensive form under his belt, but I don't think he's ever demonstrated the proclivity for running up and trying to overpower his opponent in a duel.

The Jedi of that time were taught to have their shields ready at all times btw, in case of a surprise attack. So Zannah killing them would have required breaking throuhg their defences, and this as an untrained child.

Come to think of it, it was mainly Sarro's speed that had her so hardpressed against him, and by DOE she's got a better speed feat than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
The Jedi of that time were taught to have their shields ready at all times btw, in case of a surprise attack. So Zannah killing them would have required breaking throuhg their defences, and this as an untrained child.
And keep in mind they were on their guard because they were hunting bouncers.

Good points.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi lacks the offensive ability to press Zannah hard in a duel. If she can defend successfully against Bane then Kenobi's rather flaccid in comparison. Zannah is faster than him imo and thats enough for me to believe she'd come out on top in a lightsaber duel.

Hmmm, I suppose...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also her cousin was like, 13 or something. And the Jedi were aware of her I believe, but obviously not expecting it. She does levitate one of them while killing him in the comic though.

So then basically, we can throw those feats out the window? Since she has never replicated them past that point, and when she did do it, they were all completely caught off guard.

He reached out to every molecule of water, calling on the Force to bind them into a giant, cresting black wave.

-The Desperate Mission



Anakin couldn't overpower Obi-Wan with TK. Anakin has better TK feats than Bane. Advantage: Kenobi.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah is a more competent combatant by DOE however, and it is not in Kenobi's nature as a duelist to fling himself at Zannah and never let up. He may have an offensive form under his belt, but I don't think he's ever demonstrated the proclivity for running up and trying to overpower his opponent in a duel.

Tell that to Darth Maul.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Tell that to Darth Maul.
In TPM Kenobi was that kind of combatant, but not by this point. And Darth Maul specifically pisses Kenobi off.

Who Kenobi should've died too were it not for PIS

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And keep in mind they were on their guard because they were hunting bouncers.

I doubt they were on guard for a force attack that was going to break their necks...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In TPM Kenobi was that kind of combatant, but not by this point. And Darth Maul specifically pisses Kenobi off.

He did the same thing in both of their fights in TCW.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
In TPM Kenobi was that kind of combatant, but not by this point. And Darth Maul specifically pisses Kenobi off.

And it's completely unreasonable that he can switch his forms given the situation?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He did the same thing in both of their fights in TCW.
As I said, Darth Maul specifically pisses Kenobi off.

Originally posted by King Joker
And it's completely unreasonable that he can switch his forms given the situation?
I highly doubt Kenobi would try to overpower someone whose style is meant to prevent exactly that. It doesn't make much tactical sense.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
As I said, Darth Maul specifically pisses Kenobi off.

Which evidently makes him less focused and sloppy. So it's not like that was a benefactor.

Originally posted by King Joker
Which evidently makes him less focused and sloppy. So it's not like that was a benefactor.
It means Kenobi would press the offensive in the way that he did.

If his opponent was a defensive type, there would be no reason to hold a defensive stance. *That* is what doesn't make much tactical sense.

What doesn't make much sense though is trying to power through them.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I highly doubt Kenobi would try to overpower someone whose style is meant to prevent exactly that. It doesn't make much tactical sense.

So then what would be the tactically intelligent option? He would be using Ataru, and possibly Shii-cho and Niman against a user who only uses Soresu. They can't both be using Soresu...

Originally posted by King Joker
So then what would be the tactically intelligent option? He would be using Ataru, and possibly Shii-cho and Niman against a user who only uses Soresu. They can't both be using Soresu...
He would be using Ataru, but he wouldn't be wasting all of his energy in a desperate attempt to overwhelm her.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It means Kenobi would press the offensive in the way that he did.

Which means his offense would be FAR less effective.

Originally posted by King Joker
Which means his offense would be FAR less effective.
Kenobi has never shown himself going all-out on offensive except for in the cases where Darth Maul pissed him off.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He would be using Ataru, but he wouldn't be wasting all of his energy in a desperate attempt to overwhelm her.

I never said he would try and overwhelm her. He would most likely eventually try and out think her and use the environment to his advantage as he did against Anakin.

Originally posted by King Joker
I never said he would try and overwhelm her. He would most likely eventually try and out think her and use the environment to his advantage as he did against Anakin.
So then he's not overwhelming her to the extent to which she wouldn't be able to call upon her force abilities.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kenobi has never shown himself going all-out on offensive except for in the cases where Darth Maul pissed him off.

And, when he did that he was less effective. In this case with Zannah, his offensive capabilities would be far greater.

He's not overwhelming her, but he had the ability to withstand Anakin's "meteor strike" offense. Ok Emp. Makes total sense. Zannah got whittled down by Sarro, and even in her PIS duel with Bane was gradually getting bested by him.

Anakin is a better Djem so fighter than Bane, Kenobi has torn up spider droids with his bare hands. While he may not have Bane's durasteel rippin hands, he's got more than enough power to wear her down

Originally posted by King Joker
And, when he did that he was less effective. In this case with Zannah, his offensive capabilities would be far greater.
And again because you seem to have repeated yourself twice. Without Darth Maul pissing him off, I have never seen Obi-wan fling himself out into an all-out offensive dervish. Kenobi simply cannot overwhelm Zannah to the extent to which she wouldn't be able to call upon her force powers.

He'd be the one on the offense as Zannah has never been depicted and due to her weak physicality cannot maintain an offense against Kenobi.

Her force abilities take time to prep, and as witnessed in the duel with Anakin Kenobi has superior reflexes and speed.

He STOMPS her

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So then he's not overwhelming her to the extent to which she wouldn't be able to call upon her force abilities.

Well, if he were to try and completely overwhelm her, he would lose all of his energy. When he isn't pissed of his offense would be much more focused and precise. He would be trying to buy time for him to use Sokan or something like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah.



Nah. mmm. pretty convincing. Kenobi stomps of course

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kenobi has never shown himself going all-out on offensive except for in the cases where Darth Maul pissed him off.

Yeah he never tried to stab Anakin, or use his force abilities to disable him in the Mustafar duel.

Originally posted by King Joker
Well, if he were to try and completely overwhelm her, he would lose all of his energy. When he isn't pissed of his offense would be much more focused and precise. He would be trying to buy time for him to use Sokan or something like that.
Time he doesn't have if Zannah applies her force abilities.

Kenobi. Across the board, he's a significantly better duelist, more physically imposing, and similarly powerful.

A very long and fierce battle but in the end we all know who will win...

Originally posted by King Joker
So then basically, we can throw those feats out the window? Since she has never replicated them past that point, and when she did do it, they were all completely caught off guard.

No, why would we discard them? The Jedi being taken off-guard (though as Astor said, they likely still had their defenses up) doesn't dismiss the fact that Zannah instinctively snapped two peoples necks nor does Davorit being unable to fight back dismiss the fact that she purposefully disintegrated his hand without any training whatsoever. It only stands to reason that she could perform much greater feats later with much greater Force Mastery. Disintegration and snapping necks are high quality TK already imo.

Zannah also blocked this, again instinctively and with no training:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11/115387/3538561-4091122258-extra.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11/115387/3538563-1082535765-extra.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11/115387/3538564-4439902670-extra.jpg

Pretty damn impressive imo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He reached out to every molecule of water, calling on the Force to bind them into a giant, cresting black wave.

-The Desperate Mission

Thats dumb. How big was the wave?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Anakin couldn't overpower Obi-Wan with TK. Anakin has better TK feats than Bane. Advantage: Kenobi.

Anakin was emotionally disturbed. Also no he doesn't, lmao.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi has torn up spider droids with his bare hands.

When.




Also, in all seriousness, Zannah would take Kenobi out right at the start with a single Sith Spell. He hasn't got the chops to block her tearing his mind apart with Sorcery. /thread.

Neph, if it were that easy, Zannah would have killed Sarro before he even approached her. Or she would have used the spell on Bane before the fight even started.

Zannah took out Sarro in a moment with sorcery when she got the chance. Plus she was still an apprentice at the time. And Bane attacks her as soon as they stop talking. She had no chance to use it. Plus:

"She couldn't wait any longer. She'd wanted to surprise Bane, slowly gather her strength before unleashing it so he wouldn't be able to properly defend against it. But she knew she wouldn't survive another clash of lightsabers."

It is that easy. Whats Kenobi going to do? He has no experience against sorcery and Zannah only needs a moment to do it. He'll be destroyed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, why would we discard them? The Jedi being taken off-guard (though as Astor said, they likely still had their defenses up)

They had their defenses up against a telepathic attack from what they thought was an insane Bouncer, not a telekinetic attack from a seemingly harmless little girl.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It only stands to reason that she could perform much greater feats later with much greater Force Mastery.

Not necessarily. Kyp Durron retrieved the Sun Crusher from the core of a gas giant as a barely trained apprentice.

As a full-fledged Jedi Master he admitted that he would never be able to replicate that feat.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
They had their defenses up against a telepathic attack from what they thought was an insane Bouncer, not a telekinetic attack from a seemingly harmless little girl.

The Jedi and Sith of the era are taught to always have a barrier up.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not necessarily. Kyp Durron retrieved the Sun Crusher from the core of a gas giant as a barely trained apprentice.

As a full-fledged Jedi Master he admitted that he would never be able to replicate that feat.

Because Kyp was being helped by Exar Kun, and was tapping into the darkside.

Also, he did? Hmm.