Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who takes this?

I'm going with Caedus. Superior lightsaber skills (would have beat Kyle Katarn, an "expert swordsman" in 15 seconds), best telekensis (moved a 40 meter ship), got some crazy force powers (flow walk, fold space, etc etc), and has just more raw power (able to go head to head with Luke Skywalker).

I think Caedus would win.

Caedus. Hero's the one who can give him the best fight out of everyone I have below Caedus, though.

Caedus with little to no difficulty but caedus would lose to sora bulg or quinlin vos

I feel like making a banjo impersonation.

HoT, obviously.

Caedus

Originally posted by Nephthys
HoT, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who takes this?

I'm going with Caedus. Superior lightsaber skills (would have beat Kyle Katarn, an "expert swordsman" in 15 seconds),
HoT subdued Lord Praven (Prime) and Lord Scourge (Prime). Both of these Lords put even the likes of Kyle Katarn to shame, actually many many others to shame.

- Lord Praven have history of comfortably defeating well-known Jedi Masters, one of Praven's victims was regarded as among the finest duelists of the Order in its history.

- Lord Scourge have history of defeating over a thousand Jedi and Sith adversaries during his prime.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
best telekensis (moved a 40 meter ship),
HoT once temporarily shutdown a gigantic electronic bridge with just a thought. This bridge was so big that armies could march through it.

In addition, HoT defeated Bengal Morr in single combat, a warrior who defeated a Jedi Master who once collapsed a gigantic cave with a gesture from a single hand.

Heck, HoT once tanked a blast of power (Force push) from Sith Emperor, something that even Revan was not able to pull off.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
got some crazy force powers (flow walk, fold space, etc etc), and has just more raw power (able to go head to head with Luke Skywalker).
Caedus is vastly explored in the lore and his talents are well-known. In contrast, HoT is a much lesser explored character at the moment so a fair comparison of talents is not possible at the moment.

Also, Caedus doesn't have the raw power to go toe-to-toe with Luke. Caedus's performance against Luke appears to be a superficial attempt from the author to hype him. Luke never used his Force powers to disarm Caedus even though he could and end the duel on short notice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Who takes this?

I'm going with Caedus. Superior lightsaber skills (would have beat Kyle Katarn, an "expert swordsman" in 15 seconds),

HoT has also defeated expert swordsmen. And Caedus didn't even beat him with his lightsaber, he threw a car at him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
best telekensis (moved a 40 meter ship),

In the Dark Side ending the HoT telekinetically manhandles a struggling Vitiate. True, the man was pretty ****ed at the time, but he still collapsed the temple afterwards.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
got some crazy force powers (flow walk, fold space, etc etc),

Not too helpful.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
and has just more raw power (able to go head to head with Luke Skywalker).

And the HoT couldn't go head to head with Luke Skyjobber? Also, Luke has dominated Caedus with the Force at least twice I can recall.

lol @LeGenD swarming in out of no where to defend his beloved.


Kyle Katarn beat Sariss ("Out of all the Dark Jedi I have met, Sariss is the one I can say... I fear. Powerful, strong in both the physical and mental arenas of the Force, she is a master, a perfectionist, quiet and reserved. This makes her a very dangerous foe." and Jerec (most powerful of all the Inquisitors). And is referred to as a "master swordsman."

That's not a telekinetic feat.

Maul and Plo Koon has done this.
And that logic doesn't even work. If Maul collapses a cave, and Kenobi beats him, that doesn't mean Kenobi can do the same.

I don't recall Vitiate even doing that to Revan.

Your excuses are meaningless to me.

If you think you are going to win this debate by pulling a "hype" card, you better just concede now.


BS. You still have not even read the fight.

..then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green. "

^ Note for first part:
Kyle isn't Caedus's best feat, it's going head to head with Luke Skywalker as equals. This is the man who defeated Palpatine's clone (stated superior to Vitiate) in pure lightsaber combat, defeated dozens of Sith on the brink of death, fought Abeloth numerous times, stated most powerful Jedi etc etc.

Luke jobs all the time though. He struggled with Lumiya as well.

In their final fight, he didn't "struggle" with her, the only thing was her lightwhip kept him off balance for like a sentence. You can't ignore his 100s of feats of slaughtering Sith to stormtroopers to Vongs to his lightsaber prowess against powerhouses like Palpatine.

I don't think it's right to claim that Luke and Caedus fought as peers, but it is a testament to Caedus' tremendous speed and skill.

That's what I mean't pretty much ^

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
lol @LeGenD swarming in out of no where to defend his beloved.
You have a problem with which characters I choose to debate for?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kyle Katarn beat Sariss ("Out of all the Dark Jedi I have met, Sariss is the one I can say... I fear. Powerful, strong in both the physical and mental arenas of the Force, she is a master, a perfectionist, quiet and reserved. This makes her a very dangerous foe." and Jerec (most powerful of all the Inquisitors). And is referred to as a "master swordsman."
Katarn is good but his loss to Caedus doesn't bodes well for his reputation, specially when he had support on his side.

If Katarn was so powerful, he would have deflected the vehicle flung at him by Caedus. But nope.

You want example of bad@ssry? Read about Aryn Leener. In once encounter, she lifted SIX vehicles and hurled them like missiles towards some opponents with her telekinetic abilities. In another encounter, she comfortably deflected a Force wave from one of her opponents which was potent enough to topple/destroy large statues in the vicinity and overwhelm a Force adept.

Now guess what? HoT > Leener > Katarn

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's not a telekinetic feat.
What it is then? Singing competition?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Maul and Plo Koon has done this.
And that logic doesn't even work. If Maul collapses a cave, and Kenobi beats him, that doesn't mean Kenobi can do the same.
Bengel Morr was found to have overwhelmed that Jedi Master with his powers, enough evidence of his relatively superior might.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't recall Vitiate even doing that to Revan.
Emperor send Revan packing with a Force push at one point during their second confrontation.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your excuses are meaningless to me.

If you think you are going to win this debate by pulling a "hype" card, you better just concede now.
What excuse? Some characters in the mythos are vastly more explored then others. Caedus is featured in many books, it is obvious that a lot about him have been revealed in written literature. In comparison, HoT is a newcomer to the mythos.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
BS. You still have not even read the fight.

..then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green. "
Nice catch. Well, this proves that Luke clearly outguns Caedus in Force mastery department. And Luke's best course of action should have been to use his powers to subdue Caedus but he didn't and played along with Caedus's strengths and got injured in the aftermath. Luke made poor decision in this duel.

Jacen with little to mid difficulty

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
^ Note for first part:
Kyle isn't Caedus's best feat, it's going head to head with Luke Skywalker as equals. This is the man who defeated Palpatine's clone (stated superior to Vitiate) in pure lightsaber combat, defeated dozens of Sith on the brink of death, fought Abeloth numerous times, stated most powerful Jedi etc etc.
Where it is stated that Palpatine is superior to Vitiate? Pulling statements out of your... I hope you get the memo. Don't make tall claims without concrete evidence.

I was never replied to.

Yes you were.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke jobs all the time though. He struggled with Lumiya as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In their final fight, he didn't "struggle" with her, the only thing was her lightwhip kept him off balance for like a sentence. You can't ignore his 100s of feats of slaughtering Sith to stormtroopers to Vongs to his lightsaber prowess against powerhouses like Palpatine.

I meant the other post.

Everything you said, Vitiatelover said, just added more evidence, so I didn't see much point.

Fair enough, I'll just make a few points then.

Caedus does not have superior TK to the Hero. If Vitiate could not overpower the Hero then he won't be able to. As I said, the Hero could even overpower HIM in the Dark Side ending.

Caedus is firmly below Luke. At one point in the series, Luke pins him to his chair without even gesturing at him. Theres also a time where Jacen tries to challege Luke's TK and Luke breaks his collarbone in response. You yourself posted Luke shoving him into the Embrace of Pain. Luke also fools Caedus with illusions in order to make him appear insane at one point. Luke is firmly above him in the Force. So Caedus really does not have the edge in raw power, as you claim. In terms of lightsabers, imo Caedus only appeared to do well because Luke was so reckless and out of control at the time. And even then Luke wildly underperforms at times.

Isn't the dark side ending non-canon?
Regardless, he has not showed the ability to move 40 meter ships or tank ion canons.


Didn't Jacen throw Luke in the fight as well?
"The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."


Luke was locked in extreme meditation in that point.


That makes Luke all the more dangerous.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Didn't Jacen throw Luke in the fight as well?
"The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."

It says right there, Jacen threw the "bed of thorns" (it's an Embrace of Pain) at Luke.

So no, Jacen's never matched Luke in the force, ever.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Isn't the dark side ending non-canon?
Regardless, he has not showed the ability to move 40 meter ships or tank ion canons.

I don't believe so.

Vitiate demolishes a hundred meter temple after he loses. Thats > Moving a ship. And yet he still lost to the HoT.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Didn't Jacen throw Luke in the fight as well?
"The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising."

As you can see, Jacen got him by surprise by throwing something at him. Luke pins him without even moving or looking at him and Jacen can't do shit about it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke was locked in extreme meditation in that point.

The fact remains that Jacen couldn't see through it. As I recall Luke tricks him again with the Force in the final book.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That makes Luke all the more dangerous.

More sloppy, more like. I don't think he even tries to defend himself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, the Hero could even overpower HIM in the Dark Side ending.

A weakened mortally wounded Vitiate who was unable to even defend himself from the falling "stalactite".

Originally posted by ares834
It says right there, Jacen through the "bed of thorns" (it's an Embrace of Pain) at Luke.
Ah okay, my bad.

Originally posted by ares834
A weakened mortally wounded Vitiate who was unable to even defend himself from the falling "stalactite".

Who was still able to collapse the temple. Vitiate probably just couldn't defend himself because the Hero was preventing him from doing so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who was still able to collapse the temple. Vitiate probably just couldn't defend himself because the Hero was preventing him from doing so.

He collapsed the temple after he was dead and squished (at least in DS ending). Seems far more likely he didn't bother defending himself or was unable to as he was dying rather than HoT was somehow cutting him off from the force.

Heck, in the cut-scene it take the HoT a few seconds to break the pillar thingy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor have been measured in power beyond Sith paradigm. He is regarded as the most powerful Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. Nuff said.

LOOOOL.
You mean in the third person omniscient limited encyclopedia that didn't even know the aftermath of Hero vs Vitiate or that Malgus was defeated?
Also, don't give me that BBY/ABBY crap, that calender was founded in 25,053 BBY (idk how, but it did)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Standard_Calendar

Originally posted by ares834






Laugh at this:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Difference is that Sith Emperor have been measured in power beyond Sith paradigm, he is regarded as the most powerful Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.

Are you really saying that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious?

Originally posted by ares834
He collapsed the temple after he was dead and squished (at least in DS ending). Seems far more likely he didn't bother defending himself or was unable to as he was dying rather than HoT was somehow cutting him off from the force.

Heck, in the cut-scene it take the HoT a few seconds to break the pillar thingy.

True, though I don't think that would make a difference. Its not as if Vitiate would be more powerful as a spirit than as a man or that it would rejuvenate his power. He seems to be struggling when the HoT lifts him up:

btRhyU1sgpo

2.40. Also he's able to collapse the temple while alive in the Lightside ending, so his powers weren't failing.

Probably because shes also pinning down Vitiate at the same time.

The Hero is a guy.
Stop saying "she."

Look up bro. She looks like a gal to me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Laugh at this:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LOOOOL.
You mean in the third person omniscient limited encyclopedia that didn't even know the aftermath of Hero vs Vitiate or that Malgus was defeated?
Also, don't give me that BBY/ABBY crap, that calender was founded in 25,053 BBY (idk how, but it did)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Standard_Calendar
From SWTOR(E):

"NEW ERA OF THE EMPIRE

The Sith Empire reels from its near destruction at the hands of MALGUS THE BETRAYER, the once revered Imperial war hero. While Malgus's rebellion ended in failure, the fire of his revolution lives on.

Rampant dissatisfaction rots the core of the Empire. Military leaders lose faith in their fight. Sith Lords once united against the Republic now abandon the Empire to embark on bold power grabs. And amidst the chaos, Imperial worlds begin falling to the Republic.

As the Empire loses its grip on the galaxy, rumors rage about the assassination of the Sith Emperor. The Republic celebrates, but the citizens of the Empire know that their supreme leader is absent when they need him the most.

But hope still burns in millions of Imperial hearts. DARTH MARR steps forward from his Dark Council seat to guide the Empire's resurgence. Aliens join the Imperial ranks, as Sith recognize the wisdom of Darth Malgus's inclusive ideals. Loyal Sith and patriotic soldiers fight to repel the oppressive Republic, not knowing that the key to Empire's victory is close at hand...."

Stop embarrassing yourself, really.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Are you really saying that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious?
I don't get to officially rank the characters.

The official accolades of Sith Emperor are in front of you, they imply that Sith Emperor surpassed every other Force-user in power in history. Now whether The Ones and Abeloth further grew in power with passage of time is unclear to me.

Originally posted by ares834

Nothing funny about it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From SWTOR(E):

"NEW ERA OF THE EMPIRE

The Sith Empire reels from its near destruction at the hands of MALGUS THE BETRAYER, the once revered Imperial war hero. While Malgus's rebellion ended in failure, the fire of his revolution lives on.

Rampant dissatisfaction rots the core of the Empire. Military leaders lose faith in their fight. Sith Lords once united against the Republic now abandon the Empire to embark on bold power grabs. And amidst the chaos, Imperial worlds begin falling to the Republic.

As the Empire loses its grip on the galaxy, rumors rage about the assassination of the Sith Emperor. The Republic celebrates, but the citizens of the Empire know that their supreme leader is absent when they need him the most.

But hope still burns in millions of Imperial hearts. DARTH MARR steps forward from his Dark Council seat to guide the Empire's resurgence. Aliens join the Imperial ranks, as Sith recognize the wisdom of Darth Malgus's inclusive ideals. Loyal Sith and patriotic soldiers fight to repel the oppressive Republic, not knowing that the key to Empire's victory is close at hand...."
Exactly, it ends with "rumors the Emperor is dead" but its unclear. They don't yet know if its' true, and what will happen next. Hence: it's in a third person limited omniscient view. Thanks for proving my point.

I dunno, that seems no different from the standard Star Wars title crawl. Is that third person limited omniscient too?

Yes...? It doesn't know what's gonna happen next.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Exactly, it ends with "rumors the Emperor is dead" but its unclear. They don't yet know if its' true, and what will happen next. Hence: it's in a third person limited omniscient view. Thanks for proving my point.
I am not sure what you are babbling about here but all stories of SWTOR up to level 50 have been fully covered in SWTOR(E). Of-course, this book doesn't covers future content because such content wasn't released or finished at the time of release date of this book.

SWTOR(E) covers events within timeline between 30,000 BBY - 3,640 BBY

Thank you.
Which means it doesn't know of Palpatine.
Hence, Vitiate's accolades mean nothing to the Sith who came after because the Encyclopedia doesn't cover them

Also, force-user is, more often than not, just a shorthand for 'Jedi, Sith, or member of some other faction (or none at all) that also uses the Force', which is, I'm sure you'll agree, somewhat impractical for everyday usage. Even assuming that the encyclopedia knows of the existence of the Ones, you'd also have to assume that it was including them when using the term 'force-user', which you typically wouldn't.

Which leaves us with Vitiate being, up until that point, the most powerful Jedi, Sith, or member of some other faction (or none at all) that also uses the Force who ever lived. That's okay. It's still pretty impressive.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Thank you.
Which means it doesn't know of Palpatine.
Hence, Vitiate's accolades mean nothing to the Sith who came after because the Encyclopedia doesn't cover them
Yes, but Force-users superior to Palpatine have existed before him.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Also, force-user is, more often than not, just a shorthand for 'Jedi, Sith, or member of some other faction (or none at all) that also uses the Force', which is, I'm sure you'll agree, somewhat impractical for everyday usage. Even assuming that the encyclopedia knows of the existence of the Ones, you'd also have to assume that it was including them when using the term 'force-user', which you typically wouldn't.

Which leaves us with Vitiate being, up until that point, the most powerful Jedi, Sith, or member of some other faction (or none at all) that also uses the Force who ever lived. That's okay. It's still pretty impressive.
Their is no rocket science about what Force-user term means. It covers all Force-users irrespective of alliances and conditions.

No Dark Side user besides the Son, according to the accolades I provided.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No Dark Side user besides the Son, according to the accolades I provided.
The accolades that you provided are from sources predating SWTOR(E) in real-world context.

Abeloth also existed prior to Palpatine. I am sure that with passage of time, more will turn up.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is no rocket science about what Force-user term means. It covers all Force-users irrespective of alliances and conditions.
In the strictest sense, sure. That's not the point I was making, though, nor was it the only point I had.

SWTOR(E) means nothing however, because the accolades only refer to that time and before. Therefore, Sidious is still the most powerful Sith Lord.

Who cares about this. This is the wrong place to be arguing this.

Yes, the argument at hand involves how badly the HoT would beat Caedus

Pretty badly I would say.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
SWTOR(E) means nothing however, because the accolades only refer to that time and before. Therefore, Sidious is still the most powerful Sith Lord.
Sidious's position is in respect to one specific Order.

Sith Emperor is a Sith only in label/pretention, he is a dark side practitioner who doesn't cares about Sith ideals.

TOR sources rank Sith Emperor on a grand scale and not just one specific order:-

"The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld."

"The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed."

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

Red from SWTOR(E) and blue from SWTOR(G).

STOP ARGUING SIDIOUS VS. VITIATE! WHAT ARE YOU TWO GAINING OUT OF THIS!?!?!?!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sidious's position is in respect to one specific Order.

Sith Emperor is a Sith only in label/pretention, he is a dark side practitioner who doesn't cares about Sith ideals.

TOR sources rank Sith Emperor on a grand scale and not just one specific order:-

"The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld."

"The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed."

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen."

Red from SWTOR(E) and blue from SWTOR(G).

All of these only refer to up to that time period. Try again.

Let's see how Caedus's force powers would affect HoT:

shatterpoint: has never used this in combat I don't believe

lightning: his in particular isn't very good

TK: his biggest "advantage", yet the Hero wasn't overwhelmed by Vitiate's TK, which is probably just as impressive.

Fighting Sight: Having powerful precog is great, but Revan's was seemingly far more powerful, and look where it got him. The Precog would be mostly useful in a saber duel, but the Hero has defeated numerous opponents with his saber ability, and is said to have legendary martial skills. Hell, as a trainee on Tython, he's already stated to be an expert swordsman. Add this in with the fact that his skill would increase even more exponentially due to the fact that he'd be facing actual enemies and gaining combat experience instead of practice training, and you get an unstoppable God of invincible lightsaber prowess

kinda wanked out at the end there. #yolo

/thread.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
All of these only refer to up to that time period. Try again.
You have a brain, right? Use it.

The Son, Soa: The Infernal One, The Father, The Daughter and Abeloth predate even Sith Emperor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a brain, right? Use it.

http://longstreet.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83542d51e69e2010535f1fe7a970b-pi

I seriously doubt they are including the Mortis family, and for you to think they do is embarrassing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I seriously doubt they are including the Mortis family, and for you to think they do is embarrassing.
No, wait, I got this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is no rocket science about what Force-user term means. It covers all Force-users irrespective of alliances and conditions.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I seriously doubt they are including the Mortis family, and for you to think they do is embarrassing.
Q1: Are you one of the authors of SWTOR(E)?

Q2: The Ones are Force-users, right?

Q1: Perhaps.
Q2: Yes. That doesn't mean it applies to them, they are more "the Force itself" then mere "force-users"

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q1: Perhaps.
No.

The authors are:-

- Ian Ryan
- Charles Boyd
- Hall Hood
- Joanna Berry
- Zach Bush
- James B. Jones

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Q2: Yes. That doesn't mean it applies to them, they are more "the Force itself" then mere "force-users"
Here:

"In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can."

"The Daughter of Mortis is a Force-wielder who aligns herself with the light side of the Force."

"The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance."

Okay. Once more.

1. The Ones are Force-users. Yes. Thank you for repeatedly saying that. No one is arguing it, though.

2. When someone uses the term Force-user, however, they typically aren't referring to them. They're apolitical and irrelevant to most discussions, because there's little to say about them. It's mostly just shorthand. We do that. It's a thing.

3. The encyclopedia probably wasn't referring to them either. It probably didn't even know about them. Unless you can prove it was (and it did), your insistence is worth as much as anyone else's claims to the contrary. And repeatedly stating that the Ones are Force-users isn't that, so stop doing that.

4. A tiny bit of logic. If Vitiate were of the caliber of the Ones, how on Earth would he end up losing? The Ones are effectively disparate Force philosophies given physical form. While judging them by their mastery of the Force is completely missing the point, it stands to reason that they're rather incomparable. When the HoT fought Vitiate, there wasn't some fancy Force philosophy going on there, no 'chosen one' born of the Force, or whatever. It was a lightsaber to the gut.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Let's see how Caedus's force powers would affect HoT:

shatterpoint: has never used this in combat I don't believe

lightning: his in particular isn't very good

TK: his biggest "advantage", yet the Hero wasn't overwhelmed by Vitiate's TK, which is probably just as impressive.

Fighting Sight: Having powerful precog is great, but Revan's was seemingly far more powerful, and look where it got him. The Precog would be mostly useful in a saber duel, but the Hero has defeated numerous opponents with his saber ability, and is said to have legendary martial skills. Hell, as a trainee on Tython, he's already stated to be an expert swordsman. Add this in with the fact that his skill would increase even more exponentially due to the fact that he'd be facing actual enemies and gaining combat experience instead of practice training, and you get an unstoppable God of invincible lightsaber prowess

kinda wanked out at the end there. #yolo

/thread.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Okay. Once more.

1. The Ones are Force-users. Yes. Thank you for repeatedly saying that. No one is arguing it, though.

2. When someone uses the term Force-user, however, they typically aren't referring to them. They're apolitical and irrelevant to most discussions, because there's little to say about them. It's mostly just shorthand. We do that. It's a thing.

3. The encyclopedia probably wasn't referring to them either. It probably didn't even know about them. Unless you can prove it was (and it did), your insistence is worth as much as anyone else's claims to the contrary. And repeatedly stating that the Ones are Force-users isn't that, so stop doing that.

4. A tiny bit of logic. If Vitiate were of the caliber of the Ones, how on Earth would he end up losing? The Ones are effectively disparate Force philosophies given physical form. While judging them by their mastery of the Force is completely missing the point, it stands to reason that they're rather incomparable. When the HoT fought Vitiate, there wasn't some fancy Force philosophy going on there, no 'chosen one' born of the Force, or whatever. It was a lightsaber to the gut.
1. Good

2. The term Force-user is generic, it can be used to represent any kind of Force-user (mortal or not). Examples provided by me already.

3. Statements (representing accolades of Sith Emperor) in Encyclopedia are precise and clear, no ifs and buts in them.

4. How Abeloth lost? Something happened right?

Most powerful Force-users aren't unstoppable, incredibly difficult to defeat though. The Jedi Order attempted to assassinate/eliminate Sith Emperor for a long long time; only one attempt proved to be successful, thanks to favorable circumstances during this time (keeping in view known data).

Any rebuttals to my response to the actual topic?

^^^

Your response is very well done, IMO.

The HoT is probably one of the top 4 saber duelists in star wars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
2-3. Stuff.

4. How Abeloth lost? Something happened right?
2-3. I've made my points, and you've again failed to refute them. Disagree if you will, but they stand and I certainly hope that, should someone else read this thread, they'll see the point there. I'm not repeating myself again.

4. Abeloth wasn't a Force wielder (which seems to be the name of their species). She just did things to become what she was. And she was ultimately defeated. It took an awful lot of effort, from some very powerful Force-users, and it wasn't in a straight 1v1 fight (indeed, there was an awful lot going on there). She'd be a more valid point of comparison, if you wanted to put Vitiate on that level (which is nonsense of course, but you're entitled to that).

Re: Being on-topic, defeating Vitiate is HoT's most notable feat. How powerful Vitiate is is just a tiny bit important to that. If Vitiate was some kind of a Force god, then yeah, Caedus probably gets stomped. Otherwise, there's actual room for debate.

I mean, I just don't see how Caedus's force abilities would overwhelm the Hero in any way. And the hero has superior lightsaber prowess imo.

I feel like I should throw out my Hero of Tython Respect Thread to contribute to the thread. Just as a formality.

His strength is inconceivable, really. he's literally stated as one of the most powerful jedi in the order right after Tython. His power progression after that would continue to grow quickly as he gains more combat experience from fighting more powerful sith lords, and then of course is his natural progression in force power. And something you have to consider is that his battle against the Emperor wouldn't really be a saber duel, but a battle of the force (until of course the Hero cuts him down). So the Hero is definitely an immensely powerful force wielder as well as a legendary duelist.

Is HoT male or female?!

I consider the HoT a male.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
And the hero has superior lightsaber prowess imo.

Caedus giving Luke a fight is frankly far more impressive.

Consider? I always that he/she was female...

Originally posted by ares834
Caedus giving Luke a fight is frankly far more impressive.

Giving a wildly inconsistent Luke who was fighting recklessly a good battle? It's impressive, no doubt, but it's not as impressive as it seems. And we can't forget how Luke seems to always put Caedus down quickly with the force when he's smart.

Originally posted by King Joker
Is HoT male or female?!

It doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys
True, though I don't think that would make a difference. Its not as if Vitiate would be more powerful as a spirit than as a man or that it would rejuvenate his power. He seems to be struggling when the HoT lifts him up:

He seems to just be taking it. Look at his face, he seems calm and almost content.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also he's able to collapse the temple while alive in the Lightside ending, so his powers weren't failing.

No. He collapses and dies then he destroys the temple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Probably because shes also pinning down Vitiate at the same time.

Uh, what? This isn't implied in the scene at all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Giving a wildly inconsistent Luke who was fighting recklessly a good battle? It's impressive, no doubt, but it's not as impressive as it seems. And we can't forget how Luke seems to always put Caedus down quickly with the force when he's smart.

Half of pretty much all duels could be ended in seconds. This sorta PIS isn't restricted solely to Luke.

And yes, it's every bit as impressive as it seems.

Yes, but out of all SW characters, Luke is the most inconsistent. How in the hell does one easily pin Caedus to a chair, yet get thrown around by some monk?

If by giving Luke a good battle, you mean injuring him, then yes, Caedus gave Luke a good battle. The problem is that Luke was fighting recklessly and barely even defending himself, allowing Caedus to score those hits on him. To draw a comparison, the first time Obi Wan and Maul fought in TCW, Obi Wan began to fight recklessly when Maul brought up Qui Gonn, allowing Maul to gain a significant advantage and score hits on Kenobi.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
2-3. I've made my points, and you've again failed to refute them. Disagree if you will, but they stand and I certainly hope that, should someone else read this thread, they'll see the point there. I'm not repeating myself again.
I don't think anybody here qualifies for making assumptions about the meaning of the term Force-user in accolades assigned to Sith Emperor. I have provided additional examples (statements featuring The Ones) in which the same term have been assigned to The Ones.

In Star Wars, Force-users aren't just Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
4. Abeloth wasn't a Force wielder (which seems to be the name of their species). She just did things to become what she was. And she was ultimately defeated. It took an awful lot of effort, from some very powerful Force-users, and it wasn't in a straight 1v1 fight (indeed, there was an awful lot going on there). She'd be a more valid point of comparison, if you wanted to put Vitiate on that level (which is nonsense of course, but you're entitled to that).
Abeloth wasn't a Force-user?

I advice you to revisit the sources featuring Abeloth and you might come across terms such as Force strength.

Wait, I decided to make your job easier a bit:

"Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat."

Much like Abeloth, Sith Emperor also extended his reach to galactic proportions by imbuing his power within thousands of individuals whom he planted in various regions/organizations/planets to do his bidding unwittingly (Children). Much like Abeloth, Sith Emperor also possessed and switch avatars at will (Voices). Sith Emperor actually performed multiple tasks with his powers, simultaneously at a time, which is very impressive display of strength on part of any single Force-user; Sith Emperor simultaneously empowered thousands of individuals across the galaxy; simultaneously drained thousands of individuals (sometimes even from lightyear distances); simultaneously influenced the environment of Dromund Kaas with his powers and experiments; simultaneously engaged in combat situations; and even planned to pull off Nathema on galactic scale to complete his ultimate transformation to omnipotence after adequate preparation. In short, Sith Emperor literally multi-tasked with his Force abilities on a massive scale and some still think less of him which is baffling.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
Re: Being on-topic, defeating Vitiate is HoT's most notable feat. How powerful Vitiate is is just a tiny bit important to that. If Vitiate was some kind of a Force god, then yeah, Caedus probably gets stomped. Otherwise, there's actual room for debate.
Well:-

"300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War."

HoT managed to defeat Sith Emperor in circumstantial way, the latter had invested much of his power in a galaxy-busting ritual prior to this encounter and seemingly didn't get ample time to fully recover his strength after being interrupted from a ritual of such a scope. This event seems like a Force-mediated development, reinforces the claim that The Force have its own will.

Not to take away from HoT as well, he was the only Jedi in the galaxy who had a chance at defeating even a vulnerable Emperor or his Voice. Anybody else would have flopped in his place.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In Star Wars, Force-users aren't just Jedi and Sith.

Abeloth wasn't a Force-user?

HoT managed to defeat Sith Emperor in circumstantial way, the latter had invested much of his power in a galaxy-busting ritual and he seemingly didn't get ample time to fully recover his strength at the time of second confrontation with HoT. This event seems like a Force-mediated development, reinforces the claim that The Force have its own will.
1. I've said all there is.

2. Not what I said. 'Force wielder' is a term that seems to be used in regards to the species that the Ones are. 'Force-user' is what we've been arguing over. (Well, general usage, anyway.)

3. Okay. He was weakened, and he lost. In a sense, that's comparable to Abeloth). Regardless, I'm not here to debate how powerful Vitiate is or isn't with you. I've read those threads. They result in pages upon pages of the same enormous quote-vomit posts being repeated over and over again. My point was that Vitiate shouldn't be compared with the Ones. I've made that point, supported it, and that's all I have to say.

I like you. ^
Not saying I don't like LeGenD too though, he's a cool guy, despite his claims being "far fetched" most of the time. Then again he probably thinks the same about me, so it's cool.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, but out of all SW characters, Luke is the most inconsistent. How in the hell does one easily pin Caedus to a chair, yet get thrown around by some monk?

You talking FotJ? The thing is Luke restrains himself, he generally doesn't go all out. But he wasn't holding back against Caedus. There are times of heavy amounts of PIS, but I don't see wh this is one of them.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
If by giving Luke a good battle, you mean injuring him, then yes, Caedus gave Luke a good battle. The problem is that Luke was fighting recklessly and barely even defending himself, allowing Caedus to score those hits on him. To draw a comparison, the first time Obi Wan and Maul fought in TCW, Obi Wan began to fight recklessly when Maul brought up Qui Gonn, allowing Maul to gain a significant advantage and score hits on Kenobi.



Luke was straight up challenged by Caedus, it's really that simple. And he was defending himself. As for your TCW example, Maul already held a significant advantage before Kenobi became "reckless". Also, generally, when characters become reckless and give into their darkness they tend to fare far better just look at Luke vs Vader in RotJ.

Originally posted by ares834
You talking FotJ? The thing is Luke restrains himself, he generally doesn't go all out. But he wasn't holding back against Caedus.


I understand that Luke isn't gonna slaughter the monk with the force, but he naturally would try to protect himself from harm.



Originally posted by ares834
Luke was straight up challenged by Caedus, it's really that simple. And he was defending himself. As for your TCW example, Maul already held a significant advantage before Kenobi became "reckless". Also, generally, when characters become reckless and give into their darkness they tend to fare far better just look at Luke vs Vader in RotJ.

Except that re-reading that fight, half of it was Luke and Caedus beating the shit out of each other physically. Like they had a few clashes, a slash perhaps, but in between they threw a lot of punches and kicks. What significant advantage did Maul have over Kenobi before he mentioned Qui Gonn? I mean, he landed a kick on Kenobi, but that's really it. As for the darkness part yes, but as I said earlier it was just as much of a fist/kick fight as it was a lightsaber duel, if not more so.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Except that re-reading that fight, half of it was Luke and Caedus beating the shit out of each other physically. Like they had a few clashes, a slash perhaps, but in between they threw a lot of punches and kicks.

That's how Denning tends to write fights.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
What significant advantage did Maul have over Kenobi before he mentioned Qui Gonn? I mean, he landed a kick on Kenobi, but that's really it. As for the darkness part yes, but as I said earlier it was just as much of a fist/kick fight as it was a lightsaber duel, if not more so.

He landed a kick that sent Kenobi flying and left Kenobi disheveled and wounded (evident by him holding his side).

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
1. I've said all there is.

2. Not what I said. 'Force wielder' is a term that seems to be used in regards to the species that the Ones are. 'Force-user' is what we've been arguing over. (Well, general usage, anyway.)
Err?

Force-wielder and Force-user, both are same in terms of interpretation and used to represent any Force-user irrespective of alliances and conditions.

I have already posted a statement in which The Father have been dubbed as a powerful Force-user, here it is again:

"The Son was an embodiment of the dark side of the Force who dwelled on Mortis during the Clone Wars with his sister, the light-sider known as Daughter, and the powerful Force user known as Father, who tried to keep them in balance."

I can also post statements in which a mortal (e.g. Galen Marek) have been dubbed as a Force-wielder.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
3. Okay. He was weakened, and he lost. In a sense, that's comparable to Abeloth). Regardless, I'm not here to debate how powerful Vitiate is or isn't with you. I've read those threads. They result in pages upon pages of the same enormous quote-vomit posts being repeated over and over again. My point was that Vitiate shouldn't be compared with the Ones. I've made that point, supported it, and that's all I have to say.
???

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
My point was that Vitiate shouldn't be compared with the Ones. I've made that point, supported it, and that's all I have to say.

There shouldn't be any debate. The Ones are straight up confirmed by T-canon (which overwrites all C-canon material it contradicts) to be the most powerful beings the Jedi ever met.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force-wielder and Force-user, both are same in terms of interpretation and used to represent any Force-user irrespective of alliances and conditions.

I can also post statements in which a mortal (e.g. Galen Marek) have been dubbed as a Force-wielder.
http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/father/

The Ones. They're called Force wielders. A species. In this case, not being used as a descriptive term to refer to someone who wields the Force. You could use Force-wielder interchangeably Force-user of course, as long as it's clear you're not talking about the Ones, but I was using it as a species name, which is unlikely to come up in a general conversation (most people just refer to them as the Ones, anyway).

I guess I could have saved a bit of headache by wording that originally as "Abeloth isn't the same species as the Ones", but a bit late for that now.

It's just a terminology thing.
Originally posted by ares834
There shouldn't be any debate.
Yes, well.

Originally posted by ares834
There shouldn't be any debate. The Ones are straight up confirmed by T-canon (which overwrites all C-canon material it contradicts) to be the most powerful beings the Jedi ever met.
Disney will soon cast aside these canon hierarchies.

No? T-Canon will still be in place.
The Mortis family will forever be the top dogs of Star Wars.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/father/

The Ones. They're called Force wielders. A species. In this case, not being used as a descriptive term to refer to someone who wields the Force. You could use Force-wielder interchangeably Force-user of course, as long as it's clear you're not talking about the Ones, but I was using it as a species name, which is unlikely to come up in a general conversation (most people just refer to them as the Ones, anyway).

I guess I could have saved a bit of headache by wording that originally as "Abeloth isn't the same species as the Ones", but a bit late for that now.

It's just a terminology thing.

Yes, well.
Well;

"Starkiller The code name for Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice. A powerful, almost primal Force-wielder, he was forged by Vader into a lethal living weapon that the Dark Lord groomed in secret - continuing the Sith tradition of treachery - in a bid to defeat the Emperor and rule the galaxy."

Satisfied?

Yes, Sith Emperor isn't like The Ones but all are Force-users.

No. I'm done. If you don't understand by now then there's nothing more to say.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No? T-Canon will still be in place.
The Mortis family will forever be the top dogs of Star Wars.
Disney have decided to keep the canon matters simple, no hierarchies in them.

Also, The Ones cannot be top dogs of the mythos on the whole. Only The Father may have a chance but remains to be seen.

Originally posted by A Terrible Rod
No. I'm done. If you don't understand by now then there's nothing more to say.
You are not making sense, this is why.

I provided an example in which a member of The Ones was dubbed as a Force-user. Whether the term Force-wielder is coined or not for The Ones is irrelevant, I provided another example in which a normal Force-user have been dubbed as Force-wielder.

Originally posted by ares834
That's how Denning tends to write fights.

Noted, however that doesn't change the context of the fight itself, which was a very physical and bloody fight, not one of pure dueling.


Originally posted by ares834
He landed a kick that sent Kenobi flying and left Kenobi disheveled and wounded (evident by him holding his side).

Yeah just rewatched the fight and I see what you mean, however Kenobi was even more overmatched when he became reckless.

Caedus wrecks simply. Even if Luke's versions are all incredibly whacked out in terms of feats and general inconsistencies, Caedus's feats from Jacen to Caedus simply overwhelm HOT. Nothing HoT has tops Caedus fighting Luke basically dismembered, and nothing in HoT's saber feats indicates he'd even have a chance in a saber match.

Originally posted by ares834
He seems to just be taking it. Look at his face, he seems calm and almost content.

He's clearly struggling and grunting when he's lifted. Just because he was too injured to move doesn't mean he wasn't fighting back with the Force.

Also he's calm and serene because he's literally emotionless.

Originally posted by ares834
No. He collapses and dies then he destroys the temple.

He collapses but he's still alive. The Jedi Knight specifically says that she means to take him to Coruscant and have him stand trial. Scourge confirms that he's still alive a few seconds later: "I felt nothing. You haven't killed him! Strike! Do it now!"

Hell, even in the Dark Side ending Scourge still says he's alive: "I can sense him fading, but he is not gone." Vitiate is secretly a complete badass.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, what? This isn't implied in the scene at all.

It makes the most sense given the scene.

The only other explanation is that the Hero was struggling with something they've already done on Balmorra with ease. Something Orgus Din performed to a much greater extent at the start of the game.

Or that the Hero was purposefully dragging it out in sadistic fashion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The accolades that you provided are from sources predating SWTOR(E) in real-world context.

Abeloth also existed prior to Palpatine. I am sure that with passage of time, more will turn up.
I don't consider Abeloth a darksider in the same way I don't consider the Father a lightsider. Abeloth is chaos not darkness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He's clearly struggling and grunting when he's lifted. Just because he was too injured to move doesn't mean he wasn't fighting back with the Force.

And, if he was, he certainly wasn't at his best. Nor does it seem he is offering up any defense, he has already been defeated and knows this and seems content to die. Him grunting certainly doesn't change this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He collapses but he's still alive. The Jedi Knight specifically says that she means to take him to Coruscant and have him stand trial. Scourge confirms that he's still alive a few seconds later: "I felt nothing. You haven't killed him! Strike! Do it now!"

Hell, even in the Dark Side ending Scourge still says he's alive: "I can sense him fading, but he is not gone." Vitiate is secretly a complete badass.

Perhaps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It makes the most sense given the scene.

The only other explanation is that the Hero was struggling with something they've already done on Balmorra with ease. Something Orgus Din performed to a much greater extent at the start of the game.

Or that the Hero was purposefully dragging it out in sadistic fashion.

Uh, no it doesn't. Vitate is just lying there, nothing suggest HoT is using the force to pin him down. Nothing.

It seems to just be PIS or yeah, perhaps, the HoT was dragging it out.

Originally posted by ares834
And, if he was, he certainly wasn't at his best. Nor does it seem he is offering up any defense, he has already been defeated and knows this and seems content to die. Him grunting certainly doesn't change this.

Yeah, he wasn't. But he was still able to collapse the temple. So the Hero being able to ragdoll him is still impressive enough of a feat to put her on Caedus' level in my book. He is struggling and sparking as well as grunting while he does so. And imo his grunts are indicative of strain, not pain. He doesn't make any pained noises before or after that point.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, no it doesn't. Vitate is just lying there, nothing suggest HoT is using the force to pin him down. Nothing.

It seems to just be PIS or yeah, perhaps, the HoT was dragging it out.

Other than his lightning going haywire as soon as she lifts him. He's sparking like mad the whole time. I don't mean that shes literally pinning him down, I meant that shes preventing him from fighting back with the Force or stopping the pillar.

Eh whatever. I think we've lost track of the point of this discussion.

Hero is female?

Neph thinks every SWTOR protag is female

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't matter.


All of the Swtor protagonists can be either male or female. Its entirely up to your preference. I just say female because my Jedi Knight was a female.

Hero: Male
Barsen: Female
Nox: Male
Wrath: Male
/thread

Nox is fem too