DE Palpatine vs. Darth Caedus, Darth Vader ROTJ, Darth Krayt, and Exar Kun

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carthage
*Palps drain is disabled

Force, sabers, allout

Darth Martin
Dear God.

WildBantha88
Palpatine dies hard

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Palps would get shit on most likely.

Emperordmb
Sidious falls here lol

NewGuy01
Even this team won't shit on DE Palpatine. Can't deny them the victory though.

WildBantha88
you could probably drop kun or krayt and the team would still win

NewGuy01
Take out Exar Kun and this would still be an interesting battle.

Sure, Caedus could hold up against Palpatine solo in a lightsaber duel, and Vader and Krayt could provide support like Savage did for Maul, and with that setup Palpatine is at a very serious disadvantage in the duel.

However, if he's able to single out Krayt or Vader, his immense speed and skill would make very short work of them. So the real question here lies with his Force Powers--Would he be able to discard one of the team members making it a two on one? I think that would be a plausible way for Palpatine to have a chance.

However, with all four of them I think that's something of an overload, unless he pulls off his B-Team stunt here and takes out two of them from the get-go.

Q99
I really don't think any of these are the level where anyone can make 'short work' of them.

NewGuy01
Really now?

Because sans Caedus, none of these fighters have concretely better lightsaber dueling feats than Maul did. I mean, I myself would argue Vader is superior, but it isn't a very wide margin.

Considering how a significantly weaker incarnation of Sidious completely demolished him in their fight, I can definitely see Sidious making short work of Exar Kun's likes.

Not to mention that again, a much weaker variation of Palpatine completely dominated Dooku with a Force Grip, and none of these fighters are on a level of power that widely outstrips Dooku's.

Any one of these fighters sans possibly Caedus would get annihilated by DE Sidious. United, though, they stand a very strong chance.

Q99
Because sans Caedus, none of these fighters have concretely better lightsaber dueling feats than Maul did.

I've seen Maul take on multiple non-council level masters at once. It does *not* end near as fast as Krayt's taking on four did (a sick, not-at-his-best Krayt at that...).




Maul, once it was one-on-one vs Palps, lasted for around 20 seconds. That's... *arguably* short work, but I don't think one has to be too much better to qualify as a difficult opponent (a hurdle I think Vader does indeed clear), and it's especially not short work in a multi-on-one duel context.


Even if we assume Exar at Maul level, well, that still puts him at easily good enough to not be made short work of with all the powerful aid around!

carthage
I wonder if any of the fighters would be able to see him move.

Aside from Caedus and Krayt

Nephthys
Kun is too powerful to mere be on Mauls level IMO.

Q99 is right, even solo any of these guys give Palps a good fight. As a team he'd be overwhelmed.

NewGuy01
Kun being more powerful than Maul doesn't make him a better duelist than he. erm

Solo none of these guys could give DE Sidious a fight barring Caedus.

Nephthys
The more powerful you are the better duelist you are, almost all the time. Recall that Bane was dominating Kas'im despite being less skilled than him, through sheer power.

NewGuy01
An expert with a rock can defeat a novice with a blaster.

carthage
Kun would be speedblitzed by DE Palpatine. No way he'd take him in a fight.

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
The more powerful you are the better duelist you are, almost all the time. Recall that Bane was dominating Kas'im despite being less skilled than him, through sheer power.

If you're more powerful in the force, you have two advantages. One, more using the force to amp yourself (though sometimes at the cost of endurance), and two, better able to read your opponent's moves, which can counter skill.



Originally posted by carthage
I wonder if any of the fighters would be able to see him move.


Maul could and Savage could. Heck, so did Fisto, even if he was only able to block one shot.


If they can, then anyone here can.


I think four Exars could take it, let alone throwing Caedus etc. in.

carthage
The only problem with that assessment is that was a weaker version of the Emperor. Granted, I'm not aware of any massive increase in speed between ROTS Palpatine and DE.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
An expert with a rock can defeat a novice with a blaster.

Kun is hardly a novice. haermm

Its more like two master swordsman, one of which is maybe slightly more skilled and the other is physically superior.

NewGuy01
Not really. Maul initially only saw Sidious as a blur, and was desperately parrying and dodging to survive. Then, when Palpatine became serious, Maul couldn't even count how many directions he appeared to be coming from and was disarmed within seconds.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were but a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul skittered away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that. Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

As for what you said about Exar Kun being advantageous over Maul because of Force Enhanced speed, precognition, and strength, that *would* be relevant if Maul didn't have far better feats in enhancement of all of the above areas, not to mention skill.

Four Exar Kun's wouldn't be able to handle a far greater incarnation of Palpatine.

Nephthys
Four Exar Kun's would just overwhelm Sidious with amulet blasts.

SIDIOUS 66
Considering that Maul was in a rage enhanced state, giving Palpatine everything he had while Sidious was holding back (not trying to kill Maul), lasting a little over 20 seconds isn't that long at all. Obviously Maul wouldn't have lasted half as long had Sidious actually took the fight seriously and not held back.

Also, being powerful doesn't mean Kun is Maul's superior in sabers. Kun's greatest powers come from his mastery of sorcery. I don't see how that means he has more raw power than Maul, who can: hurl starships, dominate Kenobi, collapse cave ceilings, fling around small armies, tear down tunnels, etc. Kun, IMO, is more powerful than Maul on account of being a sorcerer and having a wider variety of force abilities, but that doesn't translate into being a better swordsman than "one of the most skilled sith in history" (an accolade hard to top). Furthermore, I was under the impression that Kun's era was unfamiliar with his form, which would have given him an advantage against most opponents he had faced--an advantage he wouldn't have against Maul, let alone Sidious.

I've not seen anything to suggest that any of these fighters can match ROTS Sidious one on one let alone the DE version, except for maybe Caedus. NewGuy is right, and he's made a very strong case, while everyone else is just saying "nuh uh so and so is powerful."

Neph, Kun's most powerful blasts happened while on a dark side nexus. However, since we are now ignoring the concept of a nexus, then a dying Palpatine can shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery that's dropped directly on his head. Fair is fair. A dying Palpatine is nearly indestructible. stick out tongue

NewGuy01
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I got the impression that he simply disintegrated the machinery before it reached his head via TK.

Also, wanted to point this out--Exar Kun's best non-Nexus blast feat was knocking Aleema Keto unconscious with a single blast. A dying Palpatine in Empire's End used a Force Blast that tore clothes and flesh off of a Jedi.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I got the impression that he simply disintegrated the machinery before it reached his head via TK.


That's what I had thought at first too, but the Dark Empire Handbook (vol. 1, I believe) said he "shrugged off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery" or something along those lines. So I guess it did make contact with his head.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really. Maul initially only saw Sidious as a blur, and was desperately parrying and dodging to survive. Then, when Palpatine became serious, Maul couldn't even count how many directions he appeared to be coming from and was disarmed within seconds.

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master's blows. Sidious's sabers were but a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul skittered away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that. Maul's saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.




^ None of that's canon. In the actual episode, Sidious's speed never increased beyond Maul's. In fact they fought at pretty much the same speed the whole time. In the end Sidious used his superior strength to disarm Maul.

That's not to say that Sidious was necessarily trying his very best or anything, and I'm also not denying that Maul was in a rage enhanced state. But the above passage is definitely rendered non-canon.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99


Maul, once it was one-on-one vs Palps, lasted for around 20 seconds. That's... *arguably* short work, but I don't think one has to be too much better to qualify as a difficult opponent (a hurdle I think Vader does indeed clear), and it's especially not short work in a multi-on-one duel context.


I really don't think Vader is superior to Maul in Sabers.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ None of that's canon. In the actual episode, Sidious's speed never increased beyond Maul's. In fact they fought at pretty much the same speed the whole time. In the end Sidious used his superior strength to disarm Maul.

That's not to say that Sidious was necessarily trying his very best or anything, and I'm also not denying that Maul was in a rage enhanced state. But the above passage is definitely rendered non-canon.

And in RotS Sidious' speed was the same as the B team's, but obviously thats not an accurate representation.

NewGuy01
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Stigma

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
And in RotS Sidious' speed was the same as the B team's, but obviously thats not an accurate representation.

Urm yes he was shown being faster since he stabbed them before they blocked him. Are you honestly going to start taking a novel's description when it clearly contradicts what's shown on screen? Then you may as well make up your own canon rules because that's strictly against the canon rules established by Lucasfilm and KMC.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by NewGuy01
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Q99
Well, I do.





That was vs one Maul, though.

If you put Sidious against 4 Mauls, and Maul's going to do *really* well.



Well of course, how else would one play it? Hm, duos would be possible...

Heck, actually just fighting in succession may possibly tire him out enough for the last to win, though it would be the dumbest possible way to approach the fight.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
Well, I do.



Nah. Maul's almost a match for Kenobi in the Sabers department. Kenobi was equal to pre-suit Vader.

Besides the Maul "clone" already proved he was the better Saber combatant to Vader.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urm yes he was shown being faster since he stabbed them before they blocked him. Are you honestly going to start taking a novel's description when it clearly contradicts what's shown on screen? Then you may as well make up your own canon rules because that's strictly against the canon rules established by Lucasfilm and KMC.
No, the novel explains our personal evaluations of the film with the canonical. For example, one might have had the firm belief Anakin was by far the superior in the duel by pushing Kenobi back so far, but the novel explains why this is not true. I see you just can't handle the In lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, the novel explains our personal evaluations of the film with the canonical. For example, one might have had the firm belief Anakin was by far the superior in the duel by pushing Kenobi back so far, but the novel explains why this is not true. I see you just can't handle the In lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines.


Thats where there's no contradiction you can take the novel. (But by the way you have to go to the script first which states Anakin was the one forcing Kenobi back).

So I suppose one could argue that Sidious's speed was shown from "Maul's perspective" which could still be true in the episode. Only problem there is, the novel goes on to say that Sidious's speed was such a problem and ever increasing that Maul just couldn't defend against it and was disarmed due to this amazing speed he just couldn't keep up with.

However none of that happened in the episode. Maul was only disarmed in the end Saber lock by Sidious's superior strength. But he never failed to block/evade any of Sidious's blows, and there was no indication anywhere that Sidious's speed kept increasing, or that he was even moving faster than Maul (in that final fight at least).

Heck in the novel version Maul isn't even using his Dark Saber. So yeah the novel version of the fight is completely non-canon. The final canon version shows Maul battling Sidious with equal skill and speed. It was Sidious's greater strength that was his undoing in the Saber fight. Whether Sidious was holding back or not is a different topic altogether. As is the fact that Maul was likely rage enhanced for that final battle.

Q99
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah. Maul's almost a match for Kenobi in the Sabers department. Kenobi was equal to pre-suit Vader.

Yea, and post-suit Vader lost *force ability*, not fighting instinct or knowledge of blade work. He lost speed but gained strength, and even gained more experience.

Post-suit Vader surpasses Kenobi in the saber department.




That was a weird incident, made before Maul's power was better established, that still left Vader victorious.

Arhael
Originally posted by carthage
I wonder if any of the fighters would be able to see him move.
I think you are confusing Sidious with Flash...

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, and post-suit Vader lost *force ability*, not fighting instinct or knowledge of blade work. He lost speed but gained strength, and even gained more experience.

Post-suit Vader surpasses Kenobi in the saber department.

You think he surpasses Kenobi in Sabers? Wow. The guy was having a difficult time against Old Ben.

As for your "gained speed but lost strength" theory, it doesn't matter because Lucas makes it kind of clear in the ANH commentary that Vader and Old Ben were not what they used to be in terms of blade work.




Originally posted by Q99
That was a weird incident, made before Maul's power was better established, that still left Vader victorious.

Winning a fight is different to being a superior fencer. TPM Kenobi won against TPM Maul, but that didn't make him Maul's superior as a swordsman at the time.

Also I see your ignoring a lot of canon evidence to suit your own belief.


Btw I'm not saying Vader is bad in Sabers at all. Being a match for someone of Maul's caliber is being above all Jedi of the PT era bar around 5 at most.


Originally posted by Arhael
I think you are confusing Sidious with Flash...


LOL

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You think he surpasses Kenobi in Sabers? Wow. The guy was having a difficult time against Old Ben. As for your "gained speed but lost strength" theory, it doesn't matter because Lucas makes it kind of clear in the ANH commentary that Vader and Old Ben were not what they used to be in terms of blade work. Winning a fight is different to being a superior fencer. TPM Kenobi won against TPM Maul, but that didn't make him Maul's superior as a swordsman at the time. Also I see your ignoring a lot of canon evidence to suit your own belief. Btw I'm not saying Vader is bad in Sabers at all. Being a match for someone of Maul's caliber is being above all Jedi of the PT era bar around 5 at most. LOL
Vader hadn't reached his prime yet. He improved considerably between ANH and ESB

Arhael
Lucas kind of contradicted that idea by introducing Dooku who is much older than Kenobi and Yoda who can't even walk properly - both are example of prime Jedi.
Yes, Vader lost mobility. But it would matter only on uneven ground like for example Mustafar or Felucia. Yes, old Ben is out of shape, which means his endurance is decreased but skill should still be more or less the same. One can't simply forget decades of training. While it can be the case for normal human, Force users use the Force which allows them to remember things like it was yesterday. Imho both can get tired faster than in their prime but still demonstrate top level performance the same way Dooku and Yoda did in short duration of time.

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