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Force, sabers, all out

Team 2.

Team 1.

Scourge > Malak (non-SF)

Kas'im > Fisto

we talking SWTOR Scourge or Revan Scourge?

Nah, Malak>Scourge.

Scourge is above even the Dark Council bro. He's 300 years old, amped by Vitiate and has killed over a thousand Jedi and Sith.

I know all of this. I actually plan on making a Scourge Respect Thread.

I was in the belief they referred to rank, not power.

Ood Bnar was 5,000 years old.

Awesome.

See, this would be impressive, but the difference is, he did this over a span of countless years. It is not as if he took them all in a day, he rather fought them individually, had time to prepare, etc. And the bottom line is, no Jedi he fought was superior to Leviathan Revan, who Malak not only bested, but was able to stun and TK

As I recall, Scourge also killed a dozen Sith with the Force when he freed the HoT's crew.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I was in the belief they referred to rank, not power.

It's both. Scourges job is to police the Dark Council and keep them in line. A position Vitiate created in respomse to his purge in Revan. Scourge was effective in this job, as the Dark Council is known to have feared him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ood Bnar was 5,000 years old.

Wasn't 3,000 of those years as a tree?

In any case, Scourge was a master of 3 lightsaber forms as of Revan. In an extra 300 years I'd argue he'd be a master of all of the lightsaber forms, and/or have refined his skills to near perfection.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
See, this would be impressive, but the difference is, he did this over a span of countless years. It is not as if he took them all in a day, he rather fought them individually, had time to prepare, etc. And the bottom line is, no Jedi he fought was superior to Leviathan Revan, who Malak not only bested, but was able to stun and TK

Its a level of battle experience beyond anything Malak can dream of. Scourge's raw skills would be immense.

Lolwut? What has Leviathan Revan done that's impressive at all? Beat Juhani? Scourge was sent after Jedi Vitiate considered powerful enough to be a threat. Thats an elite list imo.

This is the third time I have to reply to this, so excuse me if it's not high quality. The first I exited out by accident, the second my computer crashed.

Cool. Malak and Revan's job were to literally wage war on the Republic.
In addition, wouldn't Scourge be amped by Vitiate like the Imperial Guard were, who were also said to have been feared by the DC.

Around 1,000>>300.

That's great. Don't see how it's helped Cin Drallig against Anakin, or how it will help Scourge against a stun+whirlwind combo.

Having a puny duel once every 3 months is not battle experience. Being on the forefront of nearly ever devastating Mandalorian battles *is* battle experience, and that's what Malak did.

Bandon would be the superior to any no-name "powerful" Jedi. Must I mention that despite him hunting down threats, he never killed any powerful Jedi from TOR.

Bandon is stated to be a badass master a Force Rage, while he is also said to be very skilled in saber combat and is excellent at Illusions.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Cool. Malak and Revan's job were to literally wage war on the Republic.
In addition, wouldn't Scourge be amped by Vitiate like the Imperial Guard were, who were also said to have been feared by the DC.

So what? Does that put them above the Dark Council? Hell no. A Dark Council member could have lead Revan's Empire, easily. Scourge's position puts him above them though.

Scourge's amp is not said to be only when he is near the Emperor, like the Imperial Guard's is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Around 1,000>>300.

Bnar was primarily a scholar, not a fighter. His immense age allowed him a vast amount of knowledge and likely a huge understanding of the Force.

Besides, not all beings learn at the same rate. As I said, Scourge was already a master swordsman with mastery of Juyo, Soresu and Ataru in Revan, when he was merely around 30. Given ten times as much, er, time to improve I believe he'll possess far greater lightsaber skill than he had when he met Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's great. Don't see how it's helped Cin Drallig against Anakin, or how it will help Scourge against a stun+whirlwind combo.

Malak isn't overpowering Scourge with the Force. As I pointed out, Scourge Force pwned about a dozen Sith when he rescued the Hero's companions. Recall that Revan said that Scourge possessed tremendous untapped potential in Revan (and he wasn't shabby at the time), which I'm sure he actualized by TOR given the above. Combine that with Vitiates amp and the amp Scourge will get from feeding on Malak's hate and rage (which are potent) and if anything he'll be overpowering Malak.

Cin Drallig was overwhelmed by Anakin's raw power and speed, not his lightsaber skills. Malak will definitely not be doing the same to Scourge. Which suggests a pure lightsaber duel, in which Scourge has the obvious skill advantage. And he has biochemical enhancements enhanced in terms of strength, while already being a huge man on top of his Vitiate amp.

And he has a shield generator. And heavy armor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Having a puny duel once every 3 months is not battle experience. Being on the forefront of nearly every devastating Mandalorian battles *is* battle experience, and that's what Malak did.

Experience against Mandalorians, sure. I fail to see the relevance in that for a duel with a Sith Lord. Scourge has far greater experience fighting against an uppity Sith like Malak. He thrives on fighting Malak's ilk.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bandon would be the superior to any no-name "powerful" Jedi. Must I mention that despite him hunting down threats, he never killed any powerful Jedi from TOR.

Bandon is stated to be a badass master a Force Rage, while he is also said to be very skilled in saber combat and is excellent at Illusions.

Perhaps because the Jedi in TOR weren't worthy of Scourge. We never saw him killing any Jedi in TOR, that doesn't mean he didn't kill any. We know he was active.

Revan didn't kill Bandon by himself, he had his party with him. Scourge works alone, as soon when he casually strolled up to a fortified Republic bunker to kill an ex-Dark Council member by himself.

Also Bandon is a joke.

And lose.

Do not forget, Malak and Revan were crowned Darth's in seconds, no one else in that entire Empire ever was...not even Malgus or Nox.

The amp was not good enough to beat an Act 2 Tython.

That mastery really helped him a lot against Nyriss.

Once again, if it's not about Revan I don't care about your speculation.

Malak overpowered Revan with the Force, he can do the same with Scourge, who was in complete shock over seeing a greater Revan's Force power.

Malak pain resistance and physical feats can handle this.

You act as if he fought like Barsen'thors. He fought your average powerful Jedi. Not even the mighty ones...none of the notable ones in TOR were slain by Scourge.

No. Bandon is not a joke. He is honestly the second/third best Sith of the era. I guess I need to make a respect thread for him.

His TK was powerful enough to slam a Sith Trooper so hard against a computer the whole damn thing exploded which killed another two Sith Troopers.

He's stated to be very skilled with a blade and killed "a score" (20) of Jedi with it.

He's a master at Force Rage, which boosts his power in all aspects, as well as Sith Illusions, primarily Force Horror.

He is above any featless Jedi that Scourge killed.


Yes, but all accounts of Bandon's defeat say Revan was the primarily, if not only, one who slew Bandon.

Oh my, you seem to have gotten positively catty. Touch a nerve, did I?

Calling Bandon the 3rd best Sith of the era is hilarious though. I guess you're not counting the Triumvirate or Vitiates Empire. Also I guess you're not aware that the reason he's a meme here is because of how hilariously crap he is for the "3rd best of the era", lmao.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh my, you seem to have gotten positively catty. Touch a nerve, did I?

Calling Bandon the 3rd best Sith of the era is hilarious though. I guess you're not counting the Triumvirate or Vitiates Empire. Also I guess you're not aware that the reason he's a meme here is because of how hilariously crap he is for the "3rd best of the era", lmao.



There's a slew of Sith who are>Bandon during this time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And lose.

Do not forget, Malak and Revan were crowned Darth's in seconds, no one else in that entire Empire ever was...not even Malgus or Nox.

To whom? Bandon? :snerk:

They were made Darths because they were already fully trained and because they possessed a loyal army that they could command against the Republic. Malgus and Nox weren't made Darths in seconds because they actually had to go through Sith training and prove themselves.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The amp was not good enough to beat an Act 2 Tython.

Yeah, and Tython sucks, huh?

Losing to the gal who would go on to defeat Vitiate is hardly a mark against him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That mastery really helped him a lot against Nyriss.

You're not even trying Ant. Its the same deal as with Drallig, Nyriss was too powerful, fast and skilled for Scourge to keep up. 300 years later, thats not a problem. Just admit that Scourge is obviously more skilled than Malak.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Once again, if it's not about Revan I don't care about your speculation.

Its called common sense, nimrod. Scourge was preparing to help fight Vitiate and his forces and fought a hell of a lot during his time as the Emperor's Wrath. Theres no reason for him not to train in lightsaber combat and every reason for him to do so. And since he became a master of 3 lightsaber forms in a mere 30 years, its obvious as **** that he could easily become a master of them all and highly refined in them in 300.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malak overpowered Revan with the Force, he can do the same with Scourge, who was in complete shock over seeing a greater Revan's Force power.

Malak overpowered an amnesiac, barely trained Revan half-way through Kotor. We know how much Revan would improve after that fight to where he met Scourge. At the time Malak beat Revan, Revan had accomplished absolutely nothing of note in terms of combat. Its proves all of **** and all in regards to Malak vs Scourge in the Force. Scourge improved drastically after meeting Revan also.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malak pain resistance and physical feats can handle this.

Pain resistance is only useful if he gets hit. And if he does, I doubt he'll last long afterwards.

Also I fail to see how thats relevant at all to a shield generator and heavy armor.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You act as if he fought like Barsen'thors. He fought your average powerful Jedi. Not even the mighty ones...none of the notable ones in TOR were slain by Scourge.

Scourge was specifically sent after Jedi who "became too powerful". For Vitiate to consider them too powerful is high praise. They were obviously above average powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Bandon is not a joke. He is honestly the second/third best Sith of the era. I guess I need to make a respect thread for him.

We joke about him all the time, actually. He's one of our longest running running jokes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
His TK was powerful enough to slam a Sith Trooper so hard against a computer the whole damn thing exploded which killed another two Sith Troopers.

haermm Watch out, we got a badass here.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's stated to be very skilled with a blade and killed "a score" (20) of Jedi with it.

Oooh, a whole twenty. Nice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's a master at Force Rage, which boosts his power in all aspects, as well as Sith Illusions, primarily Force Horror.

oh no

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes, but all accounts of Bandon's defeat say Revan was the primarily, if not only, one who slew Bandon.

Just because Revan killed him doesn't mean that his allies didn't help considerably. Its a non-feat of killing a worthless Sith.

Bantha got your tongue, padawan?

Ah, never saw you responded.
I'll respond now.

2guns

Malgus and Nox's power were questionable at a time.
Revan and Malak's never were.

Tython is a male.

I did the first time I typed my last response.
Then I accidentally exited out.
I did half effort the second time.
My computer crashed.
The third time I didn't gaf.
My argument looks awful looking back at it, so I'm going to start again. For the sake of time, I'll automatically concede to everything below without even reading it. Go you.

Give me some time to make a new argument though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall, Scourge also killed a dozen Sith with the Force when he freed the HoT's crew.



It's both. Scourges job is to police the Dark Council and keep them in line. A position Vitiate created in respomse to his purge in Revan. Scourge was effective in this job, as the Dark Council is known to have feared him.



Wasn't 3,000 of those years as a tree?

In any case, Scourge was a master of 3 lightsaber forms as of Revan. In an extra 300 years I'd argue he'd be a master of all of the lightsaber forms, and/or have refined his skills to near perfection.



Its a level of battle experience beyond anything Malak can dream of. Scourge's raw skills would be immense.

Lolwut? What has Leviathan Revan done that's impressive at all? Beat Juhani? Scourge was sent after Jedi Vitiate considered powerful enough to be a threat. Thats an elite list imo.

Actually Leviathan Revan had already defeated Bandon who should be pretty powerful.

You should concede to the HoT being a girl and maybe I'l be merciful.

Maybe. >:Originally posted by Lord Stark
Actually Leviathan Revan had already defeated Bandon who should be pretty powerful.

Should be, but nothing really proves it imo.

Also, as I said Revan had help.

@LordStark
I'm in the process of creating a Bandon Respect Thread.
Here is what I have so far: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/darth-bandon-respect-thread/97193/

Originally posted by Nephthys
You should concede to the HoT being a girl and maybe I'l be merciful.

Maybe. >:
Once I'm done the debate on Revan vs Maul, I'll form an argument here. If I forget, remind me.
Anyway, swtor.com puts the Jedi Knight class picture as a male.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@LordStark
I'm in the process of creating a Bandon Respect Thread.
Here is what I have so far: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/darth-bandon-respect-thread/97193/

Geez, thats even less that I thought he had.

I'm not done it yet. >

you forgot about him beating trask

How could you forget his best feat, Ant?

I didn't forget.
I merely didn't add it yet.
And that is not his best feat.

My personal viewpoint is that HOT is a male Zabrak Guardian.

I've read the Bane books, but what apart from accolades given to him and the fight with Bane, using a style he wasn't prepared for makes Kas'im seem so amazing when it comes to lightsabers?

Nothing.

He could barely defeat trainee Bane.

But he should probably be a match for another guy who got beaten by a non force sensitive i,e Malak.

Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
I've read the Bane books, but what apart from accolades given to him and the fight with Bane, using a style he wasn't prepared for makes Kas'im seem so amazing when it comes to lightsabers?

Well he's basically mastered the art of the lightsaber to a greater degree than anyone else, and has an extremely impressive Force Shield. Probably beats anyone except for truly top tier Force Users such as the Exar Kuns and Galen Mareks or people with comparable skills such as Ulic Qel-Droma.

He'd beat the likes of Yoda and Caedus imo.

Which is simply a 3rd person perspective quote from Bane's duel on Lehon. No feats support him being a great duelist, indeed, he relied on trickery while using Jar kai and he still sucked badly enough to lose to a semi-trained Bane.



Bane even stated that creating force shields was one of the first lessons they learned. Its a basic skill and hardly that impressive, not to mention he had a potent force nexus to draw from.



Wow.

Bane had literally memorised every single combination Kas'im could use with a double bladed lightsaber and could defend against them perfectly, and Bane at that point was already more powerful than 99% of Force Users.

When Kas'im switched to Jar Kai, he completely took over, and while Bane had a specific weakness to that, it's still reflective of the advantage Kas'im possesses in being able to use whichever form best works against his opponent's form and skillset.

The quote certainly wasn't from Bane's perspective, as it detailed information Bane wasn't familiar with, and it didn't read as likely coming from Kas'im's perspective, so I'd be interested in hearing why you're so sure it was coming from the perspective of a fallible third party.

Nexus is something that Bane also had access to, and he had the advantages of having charged the attack, and the darkside nexus likely being of greater benefit to offensive use of the Force rather than defensive.

Its a basic skill but a fundamentally important one that people use at the highest levels.

Also, this thing here is not an argument: "Nexus, The End." By all available evidence the boost of the average nexus is not so great that it would greatly detract from feats performed on them.

Styles make fights bro. Going by a gameplan of defending against any Force attacks, and keeping the battle a saber battle, he has a great chance against both Caedus and Yoda.

The quote calling him "best in the galaxy" or whatever was taken from his own mind when he was fighting on Lehon. Even then Kas'sim sabotaged Bane's training with Jar Kai, and while he put Bane on the run nothing suggests he's on par with Exar or any other high tier duelist. He was still literally struggling with a trainee lol.

The trainee that fought that fight probably would have defeated Yoda bro.

this is madness.

PoD Bane>Yoda? srsly?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
PoD Bane>Yoda? srsly?

He has far superior feats.

lol.

Originally posted by carthage
The quote calling him "best in the galaxy" or whatever was taken from his own mind when he was fighting on Lehon.

Its not important that Bane thought him the best in the galaxy. I agree, thats just Bane's opinion and while I'd probably agree, it doesn't mean much by itself.

The relevant part is when Bane supports that opinion by pointing out that Kas'im had mastered all lightsaber forms (in at least single, dual and double-bladed styles) and had gone on to spend decades refining his skill with them to near perfection. Which is a hugely impressive level of technical lightsaber skill. I give him the win over Kit Fisto any day.

Which is not substantiated considering he was struggling and doing poorly against a trainee

He could take Malak though, imo

Because Bane was more powerful than him, not more skilled. And as Astor pointed out, Bane knew all of his techniques with a double-bladed lightsaber.

Originally posted by carthage
Nothing.

He could barely defeat trainee Bane.

But he should probably be a match for another guy who got beaten by a non force sensitive i,e Malak.
That's a feat for Bane, not a detriment to Kas'im.

Kas'im mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and spent decades perfecting them. This in and of itself marks him as an extremely skilled duelist.

While Kas'im being possibly the greatest swordsman ever may have been Bane's opinion, it's important to remember something about Bane. Bane is the guy who spent hours upon hours reading about the ancient Lords of the Sith in the archives, which include the likes of Kun and Hord amongst them. Bane also hates the Brotherhood. The fact that he considers that Kas'im could possibly be greater than these ancient masters of the lightsaber that Bane holds in such high esteem is very impressive.

Kas'im also fought with a striking speed approaching Grievous's max.

So yes, he is very impressive.