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all at there peak who wins who dies?

Team 1.

I'm going with Team 1 as well.

2

Shocker.

Team 2. Dooku's Makashi will push in Exar's Niman.

...yeah, in a pure dueling battle. Which this isn't.

Uliq and Exar are every bit the equal to Dooku in bladework. And superior to Ventress. Kun's amulet blasts take it though. He's also got a ton of esoteric powers. Given Dooku getting pwned by Talzin I could see Kun beating him by the same spirit sundering attack he did on Luke.

Ventress is out of her depth here.

And Dooku isn't taking them by himself.

Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uliq and Exar are every bit the equal to Dooku in bladework. And superior to Ventress. Kun's amulet blasts take it though. He's also got a ton of esoteric powers. Given Dooku getting pwned by Talzin I could see Kun beating him by the same spirit sundering attack he did on Luke.

They have literally nothing proving they are equal to Dooku in bladework. Right, except this is presumably Exar before he has 4,000 years in the netherworld. Also Talzin required a ritual, which Kun will have no time to prepare.

Additionally Talzin is very likely more powerful than Exar Kun. Qel Droma is impressive, but no more impressive than Anakin who Ventress has consistently held off.

Exar can make short work of Ventress, or Ulic can hold him off for Exar to put her down.

Exar and Ulic will take Dooku out. Ventress is the Count's weak link. If it were Maul Team 2 might take it. But Exar is too much for her and she isn't going to take Ulic out.

Eh, not really.



He won't last longer against Dooku than Ventress does Exar.



If it were Maul this match would be spite.

Ventress gets roflstomped. Then the duo can overtake Dooku.

By smashing her down like he did to Vodo and Crado, blasting her/stunning her, hitting her with illusions. She isn't on his level. She'll put up a fight but she isn't going to beat him.

And she wont beat him like she failed to take out Plo.

As long as Ulic doesn't have Marka Ragnos in his pocket, I'd disagree.

Ventress>Vodo and Crado. Those blasts are direct and can be dodged by someone with Assaj's agility. Also, we're arguing Ulic vs Ventress, not Exar.

Originally posted by carthage
By smashing her down like he did to Vodo and Crado, blasting her/stunning her, hitting her with illusions. She isn't on his level. She'll put up a fight but she isn't going to beat him.

And she wont beat him like she failed to take out Plo.


And what exactly does Vodo have to put him above the greatest PT swordsman? And even if we say he is on par with/ above them, he was using a bloody walking stick. The time he lost to Exar were due to him being stupid and not foreseeing Exar shattering the staff.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
They have literally nothing proving they are equal to Dooku in bladework. Right, except this is presumably Exar before he has 4,000 years in the netherworld. Also Talzin required a ritual, which Kun will have no time to prepare.

Additionally Talzin is very likely more powerful than Exar Kun. Qel Droma is impressive, but no more impressive than Anakin who Ventress has consistently held off.

Hyuk hyuk, ok Stark, sure. Lets just ignore Ulic dueling a pissed off Jedi without the Force or 20 years of practice. Lets ignore Kun beating his 300 year old bladesmaster. Lets ignore Exar creating his own style, taking Niman to its highest level and having a unique weapon Kun can constantly modify to give himself an edge. Yeah, literally nothing.

Talzin required a ritual true, but I didn't say Kun would use the same technique, did I? I said he'd use the technique he did against Luke, which doesn't require a ritual. And since he didn't exactly have any reading material in the netherworld, I'm pretty sure he knew the technique while he was alive.

Talzin has shown nothing to indicate she's more powerful than Kun, who's sorcery froze thousands of people. Dueling Windu for 20 seconds doesn't put her above Exar Kun. Ulic is more powerful than Ventress. She might hold him off for a time but he will beat her.

And Kun is Ulic's superior or equal in combat so if you put him on Anakin's level he can hang with Dooku. And with his sheer strength and other advantages probably beat him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hyuk hyuk, ok Stark, sure. Lets just ignore Ulic dueling a pissed off Jedi without the Force or 20 years of practice. Lets ignore Kun beating his 300 year old bladesmaster. Lets ignore Exar creating his own style, taking Niman to its highest level and having a unique weapon Kun can constantly modify to give himself an edge. Yeah, literally nothing.

Yeah lets just ignore Dooku fending off Mace, or Dooku consistently out sparring Mace who literally invented his own form of lightsaber combat. Lets also ignore the fact that Sidious all but outright stated that Maul is inferior to Dooku as an apprentice. Maul, who even Darth Plagueis commented on his raw skill, Maul who demolished one of the most skilled battlemasters in the Order's History, Maul who combined Tera Kasi, Juyo, AND Exar Kun's Niman.



Prove he knew the technique while he was alive. Scratch that, prove that he could use the technique while he was still alive.



>Dueling Windu for more than 30 seconds.
>Being considered dangerous by Sidious.
>Being capable of possessing Dooku.
>Making Savage from roughly on par with Ventress in H2H to WAY above her via ritual.
>Teleportation
>Being outright stated by Sidious that she's too powerful to send an army after her.


And we are likely going to get even more feats for her soon.


I put Kun as roughly equal to Anakin. Ulic is slightly below Anakin though. He's not really shown anything in the area of force defences.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah lets just ignore Dooku fending off Mace, or Dooku consistently out sparring Mace who literally invented his own form of lightsaber combat. Lets also ignore the fact that Sidious all but outright stated that Maul is inferior to Dooku as an apprentice. Maul, who even Darth Plagueis commented on his raw skill, Maul who demolished one of the most skilled battlemasters in the Order's History, Maul who combined Tera Kasi, Juyo, AND Exar Kun's Niman.

Nothing which indicates Dooku is far above Kun. I take all of that into consideration when judging. You on the other hand are just ignoring everything about Kun's skill and blindly saying Dooku wins because he's really good. Well so is Kun. Nothing you just said doesn't apply to him as well.

Also Maul didn't combine Kun's Niman. Just because he based his lightsaber design on his means nothing. And just because Maul is inferior as an apprentice doesn't mean he's inferior as a swordsman.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Prove he knew the technique while he was alive. Scratch that, prove that he could use the technique while he was still alive.

I don't need to prove it. It's readily apparent that there's no possible source for him to learn the technique after his death. And there's no techniques that can only be used as a spirit.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
>Dueling Windu for more than 30 seconds.
>Being considered dangerous by Sidious.
>Being capable of possessing Dooku.
>Making Savage from roughly on par with Ventress in H2H to WAY above her via ritual.
>Teleportation
>Being outright stated by Sidious that she's too powerful to send an army after her.


And we are likely going to get even more feats for her soon.

And yet again, all of that would apply to Kun as well. He could easily duel Windu for 30 seconds, he would easily be considered dangerous by Sidious, he would easily screw Dooku with a ritual, he has empowered people with the Force, teleportation ok whatever, and he's too powerful to send an army against him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I put Kun as roughly equal to Anakin. Ulic is slightly below Anakin though. He's not really shown anything in the area of force defences.

Kun would blow Anakin away. And Ulic hasn't shown force defenses? Lolwut, he has better defenses than Anakin does. He deflected cannon fire from a basalisk war droid with a force shield. And didn't he resist the power of King Ommin, who pwned Arca Jeth, Nomi Sunrider and several other Jedi at once? Plus he has his own amulet, remember.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing which indicates Dooku is far above Kun. I take all of that into consideration when judging. You on the other hand are just ignoring everything about Kun's skill and blindly saying Dooku wins because he's really good. Well so is Kun. Nothing you just said doesn't apply to him as well.

Except he is a superior swordsman. Dude I have an open ear hear. All you have done is stated 'Well Kun can do that too.' You are claiming that I am blindly stating Dooku wins without even formulating a reasonable argument as to why Kun wins. I've already addressed the Vodo situation. The man lost because he stupidly used a ****ing cane against the DLOTS.



Actually it does. Sabers are designed specifically for the style.



Are you serious? Qui-Gon learned it after he'd died.




Yes your argument so far has balled down to 'yeah but Kun can do that too.' I am asking you to provide your own accolades, feats, ect. not regurgitate mine in an annoying way.



No one who isn't a top tier would 'blow Anakin away'. Arca Jeth and barely trained Nomi are not impressive at all. Jeth lost to a bloody droid. Deflecting cannon fire from an outdated war droid is hardly compelling proof. And I swear these amulets must be the most overhyped piece of the Star Wars universe on these boards.

Stark, Exar Kun has displayed feats of Force power (Force draining millions of Massassi/instantly putting hundreds of thousands of senators in a stasis field) and technical brilliance with a lightsaber (defeated a centuries old battlemaster in a lightsaber duel while still a padawan, inventing his own form from scratch that was more advanced than the regular seven forms, that also had the added advantage of dying with him (meaning later generations would have no familiarity with it)) that vastly outstrip those displayed by Dooku or any of his contemporaries.

Ulic himself has perhaps the single greatest feat of technical brilliance with a lightsaber (holding off an extremely powerful Jedi in a lightsaber duel after having been cut off from the Force, not having trained with the weapon for years and physically past his prime), was arguably of comparable power to Exar (was, like Exar, both extremely strong in the Force and possessive of a Sith amulet that drastically increased his powers, and to the eyes of Aleema, was seen to be radiating darkside energies in a manner comparable to Exar), and fought evenly with Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel (and would have for hours according to the text) while physically injured and having been recuperating (this also implies that Exar wouldn't have simply been able to dominate him with the Force).

Either Exar or Ulic would solo this pretty easily.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except he is a superior swordsman. Dude I have an open ear hear. All you have done is stated 'Well Kun can do that too.' You are claiming that I am blindly stating Dooku wins without even formulating a reasonable argument as to why Kun wins. I've already addressed the Vodo situation. The man lost because he stupidly used a ****ing cane against the DLOTS.

I've stated why Kun wins in my first post though. His amulets give him a huge advantage with a spammable, ever increasing powerful beam attack and his sorcery is something Dooku will have a problem with. If he can rip out Luke Skywalkers soul, he can do so to Dooku as well.

Well you're obviously not disagreeing with me that Kun can equal all of Dooku's feats since I see no rebuttal. Therefore I see no basis to think Dooku is his superior in lightsaber combat. And I haven't just stated that, I listed the evidence for his skill which you didn't offer a rebuttal for either. It's not my fault for assuming you're not being open when you go into the thread stating that Ulic and Kun have "literally nothing" in their corner and then ignore the evidence when I present it.

Vodo lost because Kun was strong enough to snap his cane in half even though the cane was imbued with the strength of a lightsaber blade. It wasn't stupidity, Kun was just that strong.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Actually it does. Sabers are designed specifically for the style.

No it doesn't. Zannah also based her lightsaber of Exar Kun's and she didn't even use Niman. Although she probably should have. mmm

Exar Kun's form of Niman was unique and Maul has no way of learning his style.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? Qui-Gon learned it after he'd died.

He had help from the Whills. And according to Wookieepedia he learned that well before his death. Also that's purely a technique to do with his own transcendence. There's no possibility for Kun to learn how to rip peoples souls out when he has no people near him for his 4000 year isolation.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes your argument so far has balled down to 'yeah but Kun can do that too.' I am asking you to provide your own accolades, feats, ect. not regurgitate mine in an annoying way.

Whats the point, you already know all his feats? I have actually posted quite a few feats for him. I pointed out his relevant lightsaber shows to prove he's on Dooku's level, I pointed out that he ripped Lukes soul from his body and can likely do the same to Dooku and posted about him freezing thousands of people with sorcery to prove his ability with it is up to the level that Dooku can't deal with. What else even is there? Do you want me to post about his amulets? That's the only thing I haven't already supplied to you.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No one who isn't a top tier would 'blow Anakin away'. Arca Jeth and barely trained Nomi are not impressive at all. Jeth lost to a bloody droid. Deflecting cannon fire from an outdated war droid is hardly compelling proof. And I swear these amulets must be the most overhyped piece of the Star Wars universe on these boards.

Yes, I know. That's why I said Kun would do that.

Saying Arca Jeth wasn't impressive is amusing, given he was one of the most powerful, skilled and prominent Jedi of his era and notable enough to have his knowledge added to the Noeticon. He was shot in the back, if that's bad Sidious sucks too. Even the best Jedi can leave their guards down. And the best Sith, like Vitiate, Vader, Maul and Sidious.

Anyway it doesn't matter since Ommin was holding back EIGHT Jedi with his power and Ulic was the only one who managed to push through and kill him. Don't underestimate Ulic, he's undoubtedly the second most powerful Force Wielder of his era.

I can't believe you're brushing off deflecting heavy cannon fire though. Lame.

The amulets are OP, its hard to argue otherwise. The Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger made Haazen borderline untouchable. Then there's Muur and Kun's amulets, which were boss as hell. The Ancient Sith were like the Star Wars version of dwarves. They make some good shit. Ulic was already the most powerful Jedi in the order outside of Kun himself (even better than Nomi), but his amulet focuses his power and makes him even greater.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Some of these seem to be exaggerations and...

Nope, if anything I lowballed the numbers.



Vodo was a centuries old battlemaster and one of the most highly respected Jedi of the era, and Exar Kun defeated him while he was a padawan. The idea that Vodo, much less the feat, isn't impressive doesn't compute.



So a bunch of vague, arguably hyperbolic quotes in any way compares to the tangible feats performed by Exar that utterly eclipse anything we've ever seen from Dooku or his superiors?

Please. Dooku is not a top tier Force User. He's good but he doesn't compete with the best. He's utterly eclipsed by Yoda, Sidious, and Talzin it seems (he's been completely dominated by the latter two), and you could argue that he would be rivalled by the likes of Master Fay, Kar Vastor and Mace Windu. Exar and Ulic have a far better standing in their era (#1 and #2 respectively).



And Jango Fett is one of the most skilled combatants that we've ever seen... make the manner in which he defeated those Jedi applicable to lightsaber combat, and then give him the Force Powers of Ulic freaking Qel-Droma and a lifetime to grow accustomed to them, and you're looking at an absolutely scary lightsaber practitioner.



No it wouldn't be, doing it to even a no-name Jedi would be extremely impressive and far beyond anything Dooku has done, from a technical standpoint.

The Jedi that Ulic fought evenly with was Sylvar, who was not only one of the more prominent Jedi heroes of the war (arguably the most gifted after Ulic, Exar, and Nomi), but has such feats as masking her presence and knocking out Oss Wilum (another exceptional Jedi from that time period) and slicing through multiple Massassi warriors (stated to be strong in the darkside and highly trained warriors) at once without the use of her lightsaber.



Which is certainly comparable to being cut off from the Force.

And yes, I didn't even bring up the fact that not only does Exar possess arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel (the amulet blasts) but as Nephthys has pointed out he also possesses some of the more esoteric attacks as well.

Arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel? laughing

It doubles in power with each blast and it started with vaping Massassi and blowing up walls.

Doubles in power with each blast? I don't recall that.

Again, his blasts on a powerful Nexus of Dark Energy were pretty destructive, outside of one his blasts did little more than knock Aleema Keto unconscious for something like a minute.

Which seems like an inconsistency, because even Keto was capable of reducing a human being to a charred corpse.

"With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of it's discharge!"

Aleema Keto was pretty powerful. She was turning people into charred husks with a flick of her wrist, creating illusions that hurt and killed people and she created an illusionary army with a focus. That she wasn't hurt more only indicates he didn't intend her serious harm or that she blunted the attack.

There's no indication that the nexus would have affected anything.

We can't say that he was doing anything more than toying with Aleema, given that she was basically of no consequence to him and Ulic was his actual target.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of it's discharge!"

Aleema Keto was pretty powerful. She was turning people into charred husks with a flick of her wrist, creating illusions that hurt and killed people and she created an illusionary army with a focus. That she wasn't hurt more only indicates he didn't intend her serious harm or that she blunted the attack.

There's no indication that the nexus would have affected anything.

You should post that scan where she turned that servant into a charred skeleton

Also there as Neph noted the with that quote, here is another to prove that a nexus wasnt involved with the discharge of Kun's blast.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j361/JanusMarius/Capturetdl2_zps574ed32f.jpg

I'm thinking the manner in which the amulets exponentially increase in power the more Exar focuses his rage, would be of infinitely greater significance than a nexus that is not once mentioned as having any role in the text as the amulet's awesome power is being described.

A nexus hasn't ever really shown to even so much as double a character's power, and a nexus didn't even amp Dooku to a high enough level to enable him to defeat Yoda.

This:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/f/f2/SpontaneousCombustion.jpg

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel? laughing

The manner in which it increases in power exponentially with each blast, the nature of the attack (energy based, and covering incredibly large volumes) and the ease with which it can be used in combat, what we've seen it do when Exar Kun first started using them and on an early discharge, would all suggest that it is arguably the most powerful and effective attack to use in close range combat. I'd be interested to see what you would suggest is...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've stated why Kun wins in my first post though. His amulets give him a huge advantage with a spammable, ever increasing powerful beam attack and his sorcery is something Dooku will have a problem with. If he can rip out Luke Skywalkers soul, he can do so to Dooku as well.

Right...a



Dooku is his great superior in lightsaber combat.



Obviously not because you can't cut through a lightsaber blade chuckles.




And yet we know Maul did utilize Niman. It'd be like someone replicating Dooku's saber and practicing Makashi, then saying they aren't using Dooku's Makashi.



Unique how?




Overridden by TCWs showing how Yoda learned the ability to become one with the force.




So defeating Vodo makes him superior to Dooku? Nope. so many things wrong with this. Darth Maul also pwned a battlemaster but he isn't superior to Dooku.




So was Vandar Tokare, and neither of them have impressive feats. They have enough hype to put them on the level of other legendary masters like Saesee Tiin, but not nearly enough to put them anywhere close to Dooku's level.



Eight Jedi...so what? None of them are impressive. And Malak is the second most powerful of his and yet I would never put him above Dooku.



Considering Anakin casually dismantles these and deflects their fire. Yes I am.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tri-Droid



Sorry, but they don't have feats that make them more impressive than Force Lightning displays.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I'm thinking the manner in which the amulets exponentially increase in power the more Exar focuses his rage, would be of infinitely greater significance than a nexus that is not once mentioned as having any role in the text as the amulet's awesome power is being described.

A nexus hasn't ever really shown to even so much as double a character's power, and a nexus didn't even amp Dooku to a high enough level to enable him to defeat Yoda.
Not being able to defeat Yoda isn't really a negative.
"This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"-ROTS Novel
"The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who have ever lived."-Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
"Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi."-Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda
"...the most wise and mysterious Jedi Master of them all."-Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda "
Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi."-Star Wars: Blast off
"Yoda was the oldest and most powerful Jedi in the order."-Star Wars: The Sith

I think the first bit of your reply got cut off.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Nope, if anything I lowballed the numbers.

There are only 2,000 Senators even as of AOTCs. You said "hundreds of thousands". So yeah forgive me if I doubt you on the other figure.




Cin Drallig was the battlemaster in the golden age of the Jedi, a master of all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, one of the most respected Jedi in history, described as having "nearly unparalleled" skills with a blade ...he was casually obliterated by Anakin Skywalker.




Right...Tyranus regularly sparred on par with two individuals who disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That's above any of the esoteric feats performed by Exar Kun.



Being #1 and #2 in a far less impressive era isn't impressive. You are aware that Mace Windu disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history right? And you are also aware that Anakin defeating Dooku was enough for Mace Windu to consider that he could be above Yoda right. Dooku was also so powerful many on the Council including Mace believed it was possible that Dooku was the Dark Lord and Maul's former Master.



What? No the point is non-force sensitives beat the shit out of force sensitives all the time and they aren't privy to a lifetime of training that Qel Droma was.




HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh my God you're serious aren't you?

Mate the Count has the most victories while being outnumbered in a duel than anyone in the mythos. You're talking about the master of technical saber skill.



http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_majtid718C1r3mrdt.gif

Was she using TK? Pre Vizla gave Maul trouble when he wasn't using the force. I don't really see your point.



Blinded and drugged? Yes. I could easily make the argument that that's worse.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So was Vandar Tokare, and neither of them have impressive feats. They have enough hype to put them on the level of other legendary masters like Saesee Tiin, but not nearly enough to put them anywhere close to Dooku's level.

facepalm

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think the first bit of your reply got cut off.

Essentially the amulet is based in hyperbole. Also wasn't Luke already incapacitated when he soul ripped him.

And Kun never demonstrated anything like this when he was alive + it was done on a nexus.

Vandar in all honesty doesn't have any feats that Tiin does. Granted, there is nothing in Tiin's repertoire that suggests he can defeat Vodo. The same can't be said for other council members.

Originally posted by carthage
Vandar in all honesty doesn't have any feats that Tiin does. Granted, there is nothing in Tiin's repertoire that suggests he can defeat Vodo. The same can't be said for other council members.

I could make a firm argument for Kit Fisto being able to defeat Vodo with two sabers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
There are only 2,000 Senators even as of AOTCs. You said "hundreds of thousands". So yeah forgive me if I doubt you on the other figure.

The chamber wasn't solely filled with senators but with their aides and other dignitaries such as ambassadors.



That was Anakin Skywalker in his prime, not as a padawan (not even going to comment on the other little inaccuracies in that paragraph).




facepalm



It wasn't a far less impressive era. It was a time when Jedi knowledge was at a high point and Jedi were more combat oriented than the PT Jedi were.



facepalm



It happens extremely rarely, and the point is that those few non-force sensitives are usually among the most skilled bounty hunters/warriors in the entire galaxy. If you made their skills applicable to lightsaber combat, and gifted them with Ulic Qel-Droma's power in the Force, and they'd be some of the most frightening Force Users ever. That's not even mentioning that Ulic was even further disadvantaged by having been reliant on his ability to sense the Force, and no longer had access to it.

What you don't seem to be getting is that it's an extremely good feat, and that Ulic did it without the absurdly large advantage that Force sensitivity provides.



facepalm



The Jedi of that era in general have more feats than people from other eras. The PT era has been more heavily explored than any other in the mythos. It's not about quantity but quality, and prevailing while being slightly outnumber against less than stellar opposition isn't that great of a feat.



facepalm



Right because being visually blinded is comparable to being blinded to the sense that Jedi train their entire lives to become reliant on, and being drugged is comparable to not having any of the advantages that Force sensitivity brings. Sure thing.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Essentially the amulet is based in hyperbole. Also wasn't Luke already incapacitated when he soul ripped him.

And Kun never demonstrated anything like this when he was alive + it was done on a nexus.

It isn't. I explained on the last page why its so cool. The text says it doubles with each blast and it wildly increases his power/rage.

Luke was actively trying to defend against the attack so no, I don't think so.

That it was done on a nexus is irrelevant since a) He's a spirit so I don't think he can draw on a nexus b) It's Luke Skywalker, after DE and c) Kun as a spirit is lesser than he was alive.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku is his great superior in lightsaber combat.

Literally nothing supports that. Exar Kun is also one of the great lightsaber duelists of all time and theres no way Dooku eclipses him with his feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Obviously not because you can't cut through a lightsaber blade chuckles.

Because a lightsaber is a stream of energy, so it's impossible to cut. That doesn't mean Vodo's stick can't match it in strength.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet we know Maul did utilize Niman. It'd be like someone replicating Dooku's saber and practicing Makashi, then saying they aren't using Dooku's Makashi.

Only if Dooku used a unique variation of Makashi that he took to his grave. Then it would be just like that.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unique how?

I don't know the specifics, other than he created his own, refined variant that was more aggressive and utilized his saberstaff's ability to rapidly change intensity and size. I think it might be detailed on one of the character guides.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Overridden by TCWs showing how Yoda learned the ability to become one with the force.

How so?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So defeating Vodo makes him superior to Dooku? Nope. so many things wrong with this. Darth Maul also pwned a battlemaster but he isn't superior to Dooku.

Did I say he was superior to Dooku? Or did I say that he was every bit his equal? Also Anoon was a noob, Vodo was the legendary Weapons Master of his age.

And I take Exar being equal to Ulic as more proof of his skill than beating Vodo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
So was Vandar Tokare, and neither of them have impressive feats. They have enough hype to put them on the level of other legendary masters like Saesee Tiin, but not nearly enough to put them anywhere close to Dooku's level.

Who the hell said anything about Dooku level? All I'm suggesting is that he was an impressively potent Jedi Master, whom Ommin babyshook. Which makes it more impressive that Ulic powered through his attack like a champ.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eight Jedi...so what? None of them are impressive. And Malak is the second most powerful of his and yet I would never put him above Dooku.

Who gives a shit if any of them were impressive (though one of them was Nomi Sunrider and several of them showed the ability to reflect blast bolts with their hands which is an advanced force power). Anyone who can own 8 Jedi at once is freaking hardcore as phuck. Dooku definitely can't do that. Ulic being able to walk through his attack and cut him down is a better feat of Force resistance than anything Anakin has. And he did this before he joined the Sith, grew in power and amplified his strength with his amulet.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering Anakin casually dismantles these and deflects their fire. Yes I am.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tri-Droid

Yeah, with his lightsaber.

Ulic deflected cannon fire with a Force shield, Jacen style. That's why I'm bringing it up about his Force defenses.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sorry, but they don't have feats that make them more impressive than Force Lightning displays.

Above Dooku's lightning displays though.

You should be less compromising on your views, Neph. Dooku is nowhere near the saber duelist that Exar is.

I'm questioning if you know anything about that book at all. It was said more than once that Exar Kun's spirit could only effect the physical realm directly because he was drawing on the Dark Side energies of the temples to focus his power, and with the fear of Luke's students he grew stronger.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't. I explained on the last page why its so cool. The text says it doubles with each blast and it wildly increases his power/rage.

Which can't be hyperbole why?



Yes he can. Its explicitly stated that he can only do those things drawing on the negative emotions of Luke's students and the power of the Massassi temple.




What feats? Defeating Vodo and stalemating Ulic are hardly enough to put him on the Count's level.




No but it does mean that if he were using a lightsaber it wouldn't have been cut through. The only way Exar beat him was through literally cutting through his weapon.




I'm sorry where is it stated Exar's Niman is unique.




Never heard of it. Sounds like fanon.



I was mistaken he doesn't learn it post death. I mistook something stated in the episode.



Anoon was also a legendary weapons master, as was Cin Drallig. That doesn't even put them in the same league as Dooku, nor should it put Vodo.



Ulic isn't on Dooku's level so here we are.




Yes, quite impressive. But again nothing to put him above Dooku.




Are you serious? Dooku most certainly could own 8 mooks. He roflstomped at least that many force sensitive Kiffar with a lightning storm. And he did so casually.




Do you have the scan? Because Dooku swatted his own lightning aside when it was redirected by fricken Yoda.



Meh.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm questioning if you know anything about that book at all. It was said more than once that Exar Kun's spirit could only effect the physical realm directly because he was drawing on the Dark Side energies of the temples to focus his power, and with the fear of Luke's students he grew stronger.

Cool thanks.

Of course, all this proves is that Exar Kun wasn't nearly able to bring his actual power to bare as a spirit. Living, he would be capable of more.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis


The chamber wasn't solely filled with senators but with their aides and other dignitaries such as ambassadors.

Really so each Senator had 50 aides? Please.




So? Dooku would treat Cin Drallig the same way.





Yeah, it was.

Yoda: Most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic's history.
Sidious: The most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic History
Mace Windu: Inventor of Vaapad, disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Dooku: One of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history and an even more powerful Sith Lord. Capable of out sparring Mace.




Didn't this happen years after he was cut off from the force. Surely he'd have time to adjust to it. Also Jango Fett would get godstomped by Dooku.



No it would be an average feat if he did it with the force. Because he did it without the force its above average. Not enough to put him above Dooku though.




Less than stellar opposition?
1. Anakin Skywalker "the most powerful Jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation"-ROTS Novel
and
Obi-Wan Kenobi hailed as being so good at Soresu he practically reinvented it.

2. Sora Bulq co-inventor of Vaapad, master of the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, one of the most skilled blademasters in history.
and
Tholme- Who is hailed as Dooku as a stellar swordsman.

4. Savage Opress- defeated Ventress, Adi Gallia, and Plo Koon, all exceptional swordsmen.
and
Ventress- Has defeated Kit Fisto who's hailed as one of the greatest swordsmen in history.

5. Mace Windu- Inventor of Vaapad, disarmed Sidious, ect. ect.
and
Kenobi- see above.





Its not as bad but Dooku had to face three opponents not one.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cool thanks.

Of course, all this proves is that Exar Kun wasn't nearly able to bring his actual power to bare as a spirit. Living, he would be capable of more.

Nice try. Too bad he doesn't have those feats while living.

He demonstrated his mastery of sorcery when he froze the senate.

Also you don't think that its possible he learned the technique from the mountain of force knowledge he plundered from Ossus? So that afterwards he'd have no opportunity to use it?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I could make a firm argument for Kit Fisto being able to defeat Vodo with two sabers.

Do tell.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which can't be hyperbole why?

It's not hyperbolic. It specifically states what the amulet does with no exaggeration.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he can. Its explicitly stated that he can only do those things drawing on the negative emotions of Luke's students and the power of the Massassi temple.

See my thoughts above. That just proves how limited Kun was as a spirit. As a man, he'd obviously be capable of it without the nexus.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
What feats? Defeating Vodo and stalemating Ulic are hardly enough to put him on the Count's level.

Well I guess I just disagree. Ulic's feat of stalemating a pissed of Cathar Jedi 15 years out of practice is one of the bets in terms of pure swordsmanship. He and Kun were the absolute best duelists of their era. And Kun's creation of his refined Niman reinforces his mastery of the lightsaber.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No but it does mean that if he were using a lightsaber it wouldn't have been cut through. The only way Exar beat him was through literally cutting through his weapon.

Hardly the only way. Kun was kicking his ass the whole time.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'm sorry where is it stated Exar's Niman is unique.

I'm getting someone incredibly smart and handsome to look into it but he suggested the KotOR Soucebook for d20 or Power of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Never heard of it. Sounds like fanon.

I can assure you it's not. I'm surprised you don't know about it. It's been discussed here for like a decade.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anoon was also a legendary weapons master, as was Cin Drallig. That doesn't even put them in the same league as Dooku, nor should it put Vodo.

Anoon was a legendary weapons master in the eyes of his apprentice. He and Drallig had plenty of skill, but their power wasn't notable. Theres nothing wrong with Vodo's power, who was a master of battle meditation, wall of light and could communicate across the galaxy with the Force. /he also was able to achieve spirit form after his death.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ulic isn't on Dooku's level so here we are.

In your opinion.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes, quite impressive. But again nothing to put him above Dooku.

Puts him above Ventress though.

Exar Kun as the more powerful would go after Dooku while the apprentices duke it out.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? Dooku most certainly could own 8 mooks. He roflstomped at least that many force sensitive Kiffar with a lightning storm. And he did so casually.

Lolwut? No, he wouldn't.

Of course he'd own them all individually, but not combined. Dooku isn't as powerful as 8 Jedi put together, that's insane. Even Bane couldn't own that many Umbaran Assassins in RoT. Dooku owning for force sensitive proves nothing since they wouldn't have the ability to defend themselves so their ability is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Do you have the scan? Because Dooku swatted his own lightning aside when it was redirected by fricken Yoda.

It being Dooku's own attack makes Yoda's contribution nil so its pointless to namedrop him. And since I'm comparing Ulic to Ventress and Anakin, not Dooku, its above anything she has done. Finally Dooku's lightning is pretty shitty so I don't think it compares to a Basalisk War Droids cannons.

And here. At the top. Its a bit unclear but his lightsaber isn't moving and the narration is saying that Mandalores tech is no match for the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Meh.

Heh.

You really should have agreed to be my padawan when the offer was on the table, Neph. We would have done fabulous things together.

I don't suppose you know where info on Exar Kun's fighting style is found, do you?

IIRC Advent posted the source and quote a while back.

Well I found the info about Kun's lightsaber:

http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/78rip9go743d0leq/images/44-83c13b7560.jpg

It should give him a bit of an edge against Dooku.

When Kun used his spirit ripping technique on Luke, he was a spirit. What was Luke suppose to do to defend against it? Cut Kun's spirit down? I don't see how Kun's spirit ripping technique would come in handy while he's in physical form, being susceptible to being cut down by a saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cool thanks.

Of course, all this proves is that Exar Kun wasn't nearly able to bring his actual power to bare as a spirit. Living, he would be capable of more.

Obviously, that's the entire point of the book.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When Kun used his spirit ripping technique on Luke, he was a spirit. What was Luke suppose to do to defend against it? Cut Kun's spirit down? I don't see how Kun's spirit ripping technique would come in handy while he's in physical form, being susceptible to being cut down by a saber.

Just because he couldn't affect Kun himself doesn't mean he couldn't erect Force defenses or defend himself. Its just that nothing he tried worked.

Also, looking though Advents posts suggests Jedi vs Sith as the source. I'm looking through it now.

What do you mean Kun's lightsaber will give him an edge against Dooku? Sure, each weapon has it's own ups and downs, but it's only an extension of the wielder. Unorthodoxy perhaps? Dooku has seen dealt with double bladed lightsabers before, even if they were a bit different. Conversely we've never seen Exar go against an enemy with a curved hilt blade, so what about that? There's a reason no one's arguing Dooku's going to get some significant advantage with that, because in the end the advantages the weapons pose are nothing more than personalizations to benefit the wielder's style of combat. It shouldn't affect the duel at large in the long run.

Exar Kun's blade is unique though. For one thing it's a modified single blade lightsaber, so Kun frequently uses it in just one hand, which compliments his Niman and allows him liberal amulet and Force use if he wants. No one else has ever been seen with a double-bladed lightsaber with only a single bladed hilt. It's partly why his style is unique, he uses it completely differently from everyone else. For the other thing, it's his dual-phase ability that also makes it so deadly. Did you read the above image? He can modify the size or intensity on the fly to become utterly unpredictable. Dooku might find his attack passing through Kun's blade only to have it suddenly go back to full intensity inside his guard.

I'd agree that personalised lightsabers are rarely relevant, but Kun's lightsaber is the big exception.

Well for one thing, Exar Kun has never actually used this blade's options mid combat. And even if he did, what you described is no more than a simple application of T'rakata, which Dooku would be familiar with.

Unlike the Jedi of Exar's time, Dooku and the Jedi of his time know how to deal with double bladed weapons, even if it's a personalized version I can't see it making a significant difference.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not hyperbolic. It specifically states what the amulet does with no exaggeration.

Are you serious? You don't see why "it doubles in power" can't be exaggerated?




Doesn't seem so obvious to me.



I am not denying they are the best of their era. I am denying that they are better than Dooku.





And yet both times his victory was exploiting the weakness in Vodo's weapon, not his technique.




A boyfriend of yours?




As was Qui-Gon being on par with Mace Windu, and we all saw how that turned out.




Wasn't it stated he sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon? Neither Battle Mediation nor wall of light means you are top tier or hell even high tier.




Backed by canon.




I'd concede that point.



While I concede that team 1 wins due to Ventress being inferior to either of the two. I do not concede that Dooku is inferior to either of them.




Are you serious? General Grievous owned 5 Jedi, you really think its beyond Dooku to defeat 8?



Are you serious? 8 mook Jedi would get their asses handed to them by Dooku. A single lightning storm would be the end of them.




Really it causes plenty of explosions in his duel with Mace and Kenobi. Anakin is superior to Ulic imo. But I do now think that Ventress would go down to Ulic before Exar goes down to Dooku.



Wait a minute...does that Basalisk's laser really only destroy a chain...you compare that to Dooku's lightning?




http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbywezLVqU1ryc3zao1_500.jpg

There are no specifications on the details of Exar Kun's lightsaber style being personalized or anything of the sort. In fact, we didn't even know he practiced Niman until it was listed as his style in a sourcebook/RPG guide.

An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own, as the first one to make such a weapon. His style was unique because he developed the weapon with a single length hilt and wielded it in one hand, contrary to how a normal DBL works. Since he was the first one to create it and his version was unique it stands to reason he developed his own style with it. Which he of course never passed on to others.

Even if you should be correct with the (imho hilarious) assumption, that neither Kun's weapon nor style were unique and significant - you would still be confronted with the facts that:

a) Kun constructed the weapon and mastered the corresponding style in less than six months of time, which alone is enough to recall him as one of the most prodigious lightsaber wielders in the saga.

b) That his weapon still offers some nice advantages in terms of combat (altering the intensity / length of the blades etc.).

c) Kun is more powerful than Dooku in the Force. Any disadvantage in skill would be made up there.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? You don't see why "it doubles in power" can't be exaggerated?

Yes, since that's an exact statement as opposed to hyperbole which is obvious and fanciful exaggeration.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Doesn't seem so obvious to me.

If he needed to draw on several sources to even affect the physical world then he wouldn't be able to affect it at his standard ability, would he?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I am not denying they are the best of their era. I am denying that they are better than Dooku.

And again, I never said they were better than Dooku. I said they were every bit his equal. Do you deny that is a possibility?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet both times his victory was exploiting the weakness in Vodo's weapon, not his technique.

So.....

Originally posted by Lord Stark
A boyfriend of yours?

Just Janus.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
As was Qui-Gon being on par with Mace Windu, and we all saw how that turned out.

Well that was an estimation of their abilities, not a fact about them.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wasn't it stated he sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon? Neither Battle Mediation nor wall of light means you are top tier or hell even high tier.

It was stated the his apprentice thought he was unmatched in lightsaber skill, but that he'd disagree since he'd fought Qui-Gon "a time or two" and sparred with Mace once.

Both of them are very advanced Force powers that show significant force mastery.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Backed by canon.

By your interpretation of it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
While I concede that team 1 wins due to Ventress being inferior to either of the two. I do not concede that Dooku is inferior to either of them.

I'm still waiting to hear what his response to sorcery is. You've pretty much admitted that theres no way he could learn his soul ripping technique after his death so he has it here and Dooku has no known defense against it. Kun could also incinerate him from the inside like he did Gantoris.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? General Grievous owned 5 Jedi, you really think its beyond Dooku to defeat 8?

Of course he can defeat 8 Jedi. I'm just saying that he can't defeat them all at the same time with one Force attack, since he doesn't wield the power of 8 Jedi Knights combined.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? 8 mook Jedi would get their asses handed to them by Dooku. A single lightning storm would be the end of them.

Bullshit. Nothing Dooku has done remotely suggests he can do that. He is not as powerful as them put together.

Also Dooku can't do lightning storm.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Really it causes plenty of explosions in his duel with Mace and Kenobi. Anakin is superior to Ulic imo. But I do now think that Ventress would go down to Ulic before Exar goes down to Dooku.

Which was more likely done by the machinery itself, not Dooku.

Also causing some explosions is weak sauce lightning. Nox and Thanaton were doing that as barely christened Sith.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wait a minute...does that Basalisk's laser really only destroy a chain...you compare that to Dooku's lightning?

Considering Dooku's lightning barely chipped a wall, hell yeah.

And neither Anakin nor Ventress could block Dooku's lightning with a Force Shield.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, since that's an exact statement as opposed to hyperbole which is obvious and fanciful exaggeration.

No. It really isn't. "Twice as powerful" is a commonly used hyperbole. Let me give you an example.
"My powers have doubled since the last time we met count."



Not necessarily considering soul ****ing has nothing to do with the physical plane.




Not in raw sabers.




His one feat isn't impressive enough to put him above Darth Maul in raw sabers let alone Dooku.




No it was cited several times as fact.



Which is more hype than Vodo has.



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_light
You think everyone on that list of practitioners is a high tier force user?



Ulic would lose to Dooku.



No, he cannot use techniques he showed post mortem. Soul ripping as a soul is because he's not attached to the physical plane. If he could just soul rip anyone why didn't he do it while he was alive. And no, what person of Dooku's level has been killed by amulet blasts?



Eh, TK.




We've been over this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155855/3783206-dooku_7.jpg

He blasts the woman in front of him and several Kiffar around him.



Nope, not at all. You can clearly see Dooku's lightning hitting it. Not to mention its the same animation as used during gameplay.



Yeah the Count's explosions were larger.




Chipped a wall? When. Also why is that a negative?

Alright. Also I apologize to Lord Stark for jumping into such a topic late and interfering with your debate ahead of time.

Also, don't expect to try to start debate with me on my thoughts, for I don't really care for these characters, especially Ventress.

With that out of the way, here is my thoughts. Note that there might be some mumbling and such because I'm writing off the top of my head unlike my usual planned responses:
For one, it's silly to think Droma can defeat Dooku easily as Astor Ebligis said, especially when he can't do it at all. Don't get me wrong, Ulic is a highly capable Jedi and is stated to be among the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos. I even planned to create a Respect Thread for him after re-reading Tales of the Jedi and related sources for my Nomi Sunrider Respect Thread, however nothing I found put him on Dooku level. In fact, I was actually annoyed how he was represented in the final comics. He should have been the one pushing back Sylvar, hell he should have beat her for that matter. I understand he did not have the Force, but so what? If his raw combat skill is only good enough to put him Sylvar level, how is that impressive? Yes, I understand precognition, amplified speed, etc, however numerous non-Force sensitives have been able to duel with Force Sensitives over the mythos, and some have showcased themselves better then Droma did. For me personally, I look toward his duel with Kun as his best showcase. Kun is Droma's superior with a blade, that much I don't really think is much of a debate when it was stated in either the last comic of the Droma arc or the first comic of the Kun arc, and though I forget the exact one, my point stands. Droma fighting relatively equal with Kun is a demonstration of how he can hold his own very skilly against the higher tiers, and this is keen to look at if he would have to face Dooku in this matchup. However, he will most likely be the one who engages Ventress, because I am sure Kun wants the prize to himself.

Droma is Ventress's superior, though it is in no means a stomp. She has demonstrated her martial prowess by single-handily fighting off the Skywalker/Kenobi duo, along with defeating Grievous and holding her own against Dooku *much* better then I thought she would. However, she doesn't necessarily have the raw power Kun possesses, nor the capabilities that puts her on his level. I will now motion to Droma's blocking off the Mando. War Droid's gun fire through either a Force Barrier, Lightsaber Prowess, or the most common opinion: both. I just don't think Ventress can handle that much raw power, and shown in her later fights Skywalker, most noticeably Seasons 4 and 5. Also in I believe the Tales of the Jedi Companion, or something similar, it brought in context that to reach King Ommin, Ulic and friends had to cut through a shit ton of Dark Jedi and War Droids. And if you look back at the comic depiction, it is quite obviously Droma is doing pratically *all* the heavy lifting. I also like Q99's example on another topic to Fay, and his comparison of her to Sunrider. The fact that Tales of the Jedi seemingly always portrayed Droma as the more capable warrior of the pair, with the feats and hype Ulic possesses himself, I feel he can defeat Ventress probably faster then whoever wins the Kun/Dooku duel.

Exar and the Count is another fight on its own, and a very close fight indeed.
"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
I feel this quote is important, and a key factor in who would win such a matchup. Oddly enough despite Niman's purpose, Kun uses it very aggressively with raw strength echoing in each attacks. To be fair, both of his matches against Vodo, despite the fact he could have probably won a little later through superior skill, was by strength:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/blz2810.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/blz2511.jpg
And unlike Savage or other powerhouses of strength, Kun is still a master of lightsaber combat comparable if not equals or greater to Skywalker. I can see Kun reenacting the Episode 3 duel, though it will be severely close.

Team 1 takes this for the gap between Ventress and Droma not being large enough to support Dooku.

Edit: Woah, Neph that scan you posted of Kun's lightsaber has some great accolades for Kun. Do they have anything about Revan in that book?

I'd definitely benefit from a full Ulic respect thread.

Over the summer I will probably go full out creating a Kun or Droma comparable to maybe my Revan one. Not quite sure on which one though.

One correction: Ulic IS Kun's equal with a saber. It's stated in a few sources that Ragnos interrupted the fight because it would have gone on for hours and left both of them dead.

Also, I recall Ulic blitzing Warb Null? Which would be pretty neat.

What source is that from? A quote would be nice.' Also I'll scan you the comic on which I'm referring to Kun>Droma.

Originally posted by Nephthys
One correction: Ulic IS Kun's equal with a saber. It's stated in a few sources that Ragnos interrupted the fight because it would have gone on for hours and left both of them dead.

Also, I recall Ulic blitzing Warb Null? Which would be pretty neat.
Twas Kun before his prime and Kun without his pimpsaber though.

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/droma110.jpg

Nice SBAHJ comic Ant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What source is that from? A quote would be nice.' Also I'll scan you the comic on which I'm referring to Kun>Droma.

"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." - Dark Side Sourcebook, pg 76

I believe the source stating they'd kill each other is Jedi vs Sith. I read it a few days ago.

Dafuq am I looking at?

Ah okay, conceded.
However, checkout Dark Lords of the Sith page 22 I believe, which states Kun>Droma and implies combat as well because it shows Kun in the middle of combat when it says "And there is one even greater then you."

Kun is > Droma in combat. Just not lightsaber ability.

I recall one quote said that Kun engaged Ulic in melee because he believed himself the greatest duelist alive and was stunned that someone could actually equal him.

Yes, that's from the swtor.com videos.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Over the summer I will probably go full out creating a Kun or Droma comparable to maybe my Revan one. Not quite sure on which one though.

You should definitely do a Droma one, Silver2467 already did an Exar Kun respect thread.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes, that's from the swtor.com videos.

No, its from one of the quotes I read 2 days ago when I was skimming multiple sourcebooks and reading old Advent and Nai threads. Too tired to remember tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBF5_MdHL40
3:03?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No. It really isn't. "Twice as powerful" is a commonly used hyperbole. Let me give you an example.
"My powers have doubled since the last time we met count."

Except the exact phrase is 'the amulet doubles the power of its discharge." There's nothing hyperbolic about it, its simply describing the function of the amulet.

Also that's Anakin boasting, not the omniscient narration as in the Kun case.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not necessarily considering soul ****ing has nothing to do with the physical plane.

Conceded.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not in raw sabers.

The feats don't support that assertion.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
His one feat isn't impressive enough to put him above Darth Maul in raw sabers let alone Dooku.

It's not his only feat. He drew with Ulic as well, remember?


Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it was cited several times as fact.

Wasn't it only stated as fact that they'd sparred? Also that could have been before Qui-Gon declined.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which is more hype than Vodo has.

Lol, no it isn't. Sparring with someone once means **** all.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_light
You think everyone on that list of practitioners is a high tier force user?

Probably. Some of them have displayed over high end force abilities like deflecting blaster bolts with their hands.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ulic would lose to Dooku.

In your opinion. I put them rather close. Ulic is more powerful than people give him credit for.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, he cannot use techniques he showed post mortem. Soul ripping as a soul is because he's not attached to the physical plane. If he could just soul rip anyone why didn't he do it while he was alive. And no, what person of Dooku's level has been killed by amulet blasts?

The soul can be affected while attached to the physical plane. Nox does it in Swtor and ghosts such as Kun can be affected by Force users, like when Kun killed Nadd's spirit. I already suggested why he didn't do it while he was alive, he could have learned it from the knowledge he stole from Ossus. Your mum. That's a dumb argument. Who has Sidious killed who's Dooku level with lightning? No-one, but he'd still freaking do it. Kun's amulets are powerful enough to severely impact the fight or outright overpower Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, TK.

Regardless, Ommin was a badass.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We've been over this.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11115/111155855/3783206-dooku_7.jpg

He blasts the woman in front of him and several Kiffar around him.

Yeah, we have. And killing a bunch of mooks with no ability to resist his attack means nothing. The only reason it would be impressive is if they had some way of defending themselves with the Force, so that Dooku would then be actually overpowering them at the same time. Since they don't, it's no different from killing some stormtroopers.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nope, not at all. You can clearly see Dooku's lightning hitting it. Not to mention its the same animation as used during gameplay.

You can also see lightning spiralling around the structure independent of Dooku. At best he damaged it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah the Count's explosions were larger.

No, it wasn't. I've compared them.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Chipped a wall? When. Also why is that a negative?

AotC. His lightning is reflected into a wall and a bit of it flies off. It's a negative because you were acting like the Basalisk's cannon sucked when all they did was destroy a chain, but Dooku's lightning did less damage to a stone wall than Mandalore did to a giant metal chain. Metal > rock.

Uh, IIRC the rather low-end Padawans of Luke's Jedi Praxeum was able to use Wall of Light to stop the Spectral Kun, only high-end Force Users can achieve it? Lol.

That was all of them combining their power, wasn't it? I mean, aren't these the same guys who pushed a fleet out of a solar system by combining power?

Pffft. Nihilus could do that while drinking some planet juice.

Caedus and Katarn could both use comprehensive respect threads.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was all of them combining their power, wasn't it? I mean, aren't these the same guys who pushed a fleet out of a solar system by combining power?

Pretty sure they were different Jedi, and that there were more of them. At this point the Jedi in question really seemed to be pathetic teenagers with Force Powers. The Jedi that ended up vanquishing Exar Kun was a group of eight or so Padawans.

Ulic is extremely underrated it seems. He's significantly more powerful than Dooku and a vastly superior duellist, and would in all likelihood solo this convincingly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except the exact phrase is 'the amulet doubles the power of its discharge." There's nothing hyperbolic about it, its simply describing the function of the amulet.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The term 'doubles the power' or 'gets twice as strong' is a commonly used hyperbole.



My point is that its a fallacious statement. There's literally no way that every time its fired it doubles in power. That doesn't even make logical sense.



See, this is why I enjoy discussions with you.




Yeah it does. Ulic has one good feat. Dooku has several including dueling Yoda to a standstill.



Which is circular logic...Ulic's best feat is dueling on par with Exar Kun, who's best feat is dueling on par with Ulic. Both of which have a singular impressive feat outside of this showing. Neither of them did things that Dooku couldn't do better.




It was never stated, period.




What does Vodo have that puts him so high on the tier list?



As already stated Padawans are on that list...so no its not that impressive.



Not really, his best feat is fighting on par with Exar before his peak.



Its made pretty clear that Nox is unique via Force Walk.
Uh Mace ****ing Windu and Darth Vader? Not good enough? Darth Plagueis the Wise. That's why Sidious' lightning is so hyped, it gets powerscaling from people like Galen Marek.



K




You act as though any of those people have shown a defense against lightning. Someone awhile back even stated that even the most powerful Jedi Masters have trouble deflecting lightning.



Uhhh who says its independent of Dooku?




I was in that thread and you were wrong.



Low end showing considering the explosion in AOTCs.

They both have but you're just choosing to ignore the evidence we're presenting which is why I stopped posting.

Dooku does not have the standing in his era that Exar and Ulic do, he hasn't demonstrated powers over the same scale that Exar has, nor has he demonstrated the absurdly high level of skill required to invent his own lightsaber form (one that was superior to the existing forms) or duel an impressive Jedi while cut off from the Force.

Exar and Ulic were the undisputed #1 and #2 most powerful Force Users of the era, while Dooku got completely dominated by Talzin and Sidious, could not defeat Yoda while on a nexus (where his powers were explicitly stated to have been much greater), got destroyed by Anakin (while he is the chosen one he is still nowhere near his full potential), you'd have to put Mace Windu above him when equipped with the full power of Vaapad and Shatterpoint (as it helped him compete with and defeat Sidious, Dooku's clear better), and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Fay, Kar Vastor and Volfe Karkko were more powerful as well, not to mention Plageius who would be his clear superior as well. There is nothing to suggest that his technical ability with a lightsaber is even close to the duo's, and he's never reached the heights that Exar has with his Force powers (while Ulic at the very least is implied to be comparably as powerful, both by Aleema's perception of how strong they were in the darkside, having his already extraordinary potential boosted by a powerful sith amulet, and Exar presumably not being able to simply overpower him with the Force).

Dooku is simply outclassed, and is not remotely in the same league as them. Exar and Ulic vs Yoda and Mace Windu or Sidious and Plagueis would be a thread that actually makes sense.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, IIRC the rather low-end Padawans of Luke's Jedi Praxeum was able to use Wall of Light to stop the Spectral Kun, only high-end Force Users can achieve it? Lol.

Let me just teach you about the context of the scene, given that you seem to have forgotten it.

Kun's freaking force ghost, completely "powerless" compared to the original dude, was force choking Luke's students to death collectively. They just managed to survive, because one of them had a special talent for wind manipulation and managed to force air into their lungs. Note that Kun, in the very same powerless form, had turned one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton.

Then they teamed up and joined forces, assisted by the spirits of both Vodo and Luke, in order to defeat Kun's spirit, which was - as I may remind you - chained to that very place by a similar attack conducted by the entire Jedi Order of his time. So what is your point exactly?

And since I'm already at it: Aside from the points already mentioned, you may want to consider the fact, that Kun has been labeled the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords" (Official Star Wars Fact File), which should give you a little hint of his standing compared to his peers in the Sith Order. You may want to think about the fact, that the guy had "more knowledge than he could ever use" (narrator in The Sith War comics) including pretty much everything left behind by Naga Sadow, who was labeled "one of the most powerful Sith magicians" by non other than Darth Sidious (The Essential Guide through the Force). In fact, Sidious considers the knowledge of Sadow so dangerous, that he decides to hide it away (same source).

On top of that and his formidable skill with one / two lightsabers and his unique weapon, Kun is also character possessing a freaking about of physical strength. The guy was capable to punch his fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor and lift him from the ground to use him as a puppet, when the weight of the alien was suspended on Kun's fingers.

Now combine that with his rather nice arsenal of offensive force abilities (not least: his amulet) and take a look at his force defense: The "most devasting light side force technique" used against him, did nothing but put him on his ass for a few seconds. He apparently shrugged off a Sith Magic attack by Aleema Keto, who is seen to turn people to charred bones with single spells in the comic before. Kun's answer to both offenses are attacks of his own. The first apparently kills a 1,000 year old Jedi Master that battled Ancient Sith in direct confrontation. The second floors Alema Keto and renders her unconcious for a rather large period of time.

By virtue of his force abilities alone, Kun could possible solo this fight - without even igniting his lightsaber. And should he decide to duke it out in a melee, Ventress would probably not survive for more than ten seconds. Tossing Ulic into that match-up, who would probably destroy Ventress and keep Dooku busy (if not defeat him) is pretty much overkill.

Originally posted by Nai
-snip-

You are missing our point. Simply knowing how to use Wall of Light is not proof that someone is a powerful Jedi. We are talking about Exar's prowess with a lightsaber. Of which his claim to fame is defeating Vodo. Vodo is featless...so his claim to being this god with a lightsaber is bullshit. Was he a great duelist? Sure. Better than/on par with Dooku? Nope, doesn't have the feats.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The term 'doubles the power' or 'gets twice as strong' is a commonly used hyperbole.

I agree to disagree. It isn't outside of the realms of possibility that its hyperbolic, but nothing actually suggests it is imo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
My point is that its a fallacious statement. There's literally no way that every time its fired it doubles in power. That doesn't even make logical sense.

I would imagine that it has an upper limit, true. But this is a Sith Artifact, the same things that can drain entire worlds, repel any attack, blow up stars or create illusionary armies.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah it does. Ulic has one good feat. Dooku has several including dueling Yoda to a standstill.

Ulic has more than one good feat.

Dooku didn't duel Yoda to a standstill, wtf are you smoking?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which is circular logic...Ulic's best feat is dueling on par with Exar Kun, who's best feat is dueling on par with Ulic. Both of which have a singular impressive feat outside of this showing. Neither of them did things that Dooku couldn't do better.

Ulic's best feat is dueling Sylvar while cut off from the Force, old, out of practice and injured imo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It was never stated, period.

Ok, thanks for the history lesson bro.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
What does Vodo have that puts him so high on the tier list?

He's a centuries old legendary weapons master and duelist, was the greatest warrior of his species who were renowned as warriors, has was incredibly fast and agile due to his 6 powerful "legs", he could shatter stone with his quarterstaff and had enough skill to find Kun's precise balance point and humble him in the midst of his assualt.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
As already stated Padawans are on that list...so no its not that impressive.

Meh.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really, his best feat is fighting on par with Exar before his peak.

Nah.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its made pretty clear that Nox is unique via Force Walk.
Uh Mace ****ing Windu and Darth Vader? Not good enough? Darth Plagueis the Wise. That's why Sidious' lightning is so hyped, it gets powerscaling from people like Galen Marek.

Nox didn't do it via Force Walk. Voss are also able to interact with the spiritual plane via the Force. There are many other examples I'm sure. Like Brand binding Sidious' soul to his as he's dying or the padawans attacking Kun with Wall of Light or whatever happened.

Sidious didn't kill Windu with lightning, he shoved him through a window and Vader wasn't defending himself properly and was injured and weakened.

Anyway, it doesn't freaking matter. My logic still stands. An attack that's shown to be powerful enough will affect powerful Jedi regardless of how many times it's been used in combat or against who.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You act as though any of those people have shown a defense against lightning. Someone awhile back even stated that even the most powerful Jedi Masters have trouble deflecting lightning.

They were shown blocking blast bolts with their bare hands, something much rarer and harder to do than blocking lightning. At the least they could just use that technique. And that quote is a serious exaggeration. Loads of Jedi can do it, even padawans or relatively untrained Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhhh who says its independent of Dooku?

The guy with eyes? Who can see that Dooku's not using Force Lightning while its visible or active?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I was in that thread and you were wrong.

If you want I can post both videos and we can compare. I'm confident I'm right.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Low end showing considering the explosion in AOTCs.

That was the explosion in AOTC.

It barely chipped the wall.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I would imagine that it has an upper limit, true. But this is a Sith Artifact, the same things that can drain entire worlds, repel any attack, blow up stars or create illusionary armies.

I suppose. In Exar's hands it has no such showings though.




You've stated his good saber feats; fighting Sylvar while cut off from the force and fighting Exar. Am I mistaken? Because that's all you've cited.

Are you serious?
"Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force."

That's literally a stand still.



Sylvar isn't even a Jedi Master.



Oppo Rancisis- Centuries old member of the Jedi Council, strong and agile due to his multiple legs and tail. Defeated the Blood Monarch of Thisspias while unarmed. Fends off several Anzati assassins, is a master of Battle Meditation similar to Vodo. Sora Bulq preferred to use subterfuge rather than face him in open combat. And yet if Sora Bulq killed him in 1v1 I wouldn't consider that a feat putting him on Dooku's level.






Nox didn't bind those souls to him via Force Walk?
The Voss have a unique connection with the Force...Brand doing what? Didn't you already concede that he's not soul ****ing Dooku?



With force lightning. He still killed Vader with a short burst when Galen Marek failed to in a more concentrated effort.



No reason why Dooku couldn't deflect or dodge it.




I disagree that its more difficult than blocking lightning. An exaggeration because you say so? Please even late in the Barsen'thor's story he's struggling to counter Force Lightning.




The lightning clearly comes from the sky if you've watched the entire video. Also the beam of light that descends is the same shown during gameplay when Dooku uses lightning. Its obviously his




We've already done this. Both me and Sidious66 agreed Dooku's were larger.




It destroyed a pipe are you serious?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
You've stated his good saber feats; fighting Sylvar while cut off from the force and fighting Exar. Am I mistaken? Because that's all you've cited.

Are you serious?
"Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force."

That's literally a stand still.

He also blitzed Warb Null. And did this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_medium/11115/111152734/3781529-lightsabertrainingdroid.jpg

Lolwut? Are you serious? Yoda engaging a saberlock is not Dooku fighting him to a standstill. And if it is its utterly not as impressive as you made it sound. You might as well say Maul fought Sidious to a standstill, despite Sidious being his obvious superior.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sylvar isn't even a Jedi Master.

Neither was the Hero of Tython. Or countless other powerful Jedi Knights.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Oppo Rancisis- Centuries old member of the Jedi Council, strong and agile due to his multiple legs and tail. Defeated the Blood Monarch of Thisspias while unarmed. Fends off several Anzati assassins, is a master of Battle Meditation similar to Vodo. Sora Bulq preferred to use subterfuge rather than face him in open combat. And yet if Sora Bulq killed him in 1v1 I wouldn't consider that a feat putting him on Dooku's level.

And I would agree with you. If he defeated him when he was an apprentice though....

Also that guy doesn't sound equal to Vodo.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nox didn't bind those souls to him via Force Walk?
The Voss have a unique connection with the Force...Brand doing what? Didn't you already concede that he's not soul ****ing Dooku?

That's not what I'm talking about. Nox affects ghosts in other ways through the campaign.

You know, in Dark Empire when he drags Sidious' soul into the abyss or whatever.

No, I conceded that soul ripping doesn't have anything to do with the physical world. I still think Kun could soul rip Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
With force lightning. He still killed Vader with a short burst when Galen Marek failed to in a more concentrated effort.

But the Force Lightning didn't kill him. The fall did. And as I recall it didn't kill Vader either, just damaged his life support.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No reason why Dooku couldn't deflect or dodge it.

Dooku wouldn't deflect it easily and couldn't keep that up for long, while Kun will be spamming them freely. As for dodging, its a large beam.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I disagree that its more difficult than blocking lightning. An exaggeration because you say so? Please even late in the Barsen'thor's story he's struggling to counter Force Lightning.

Oh please, practically any Jedi can block lightning with a lightsaber. AotC Kenobi blcoks Dooku's lightning with laughable ease, which should show you how weak Dooku's lightning really is. Blocking blaster bolts with your hand is far more difficult.

The Barsen'thor casually blocks lightning halfway through the game actually. It's just that the Emperor's Children are powerful.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The lightning clearly comes from the sky if you've watched the entire video. Also the beam of light that descends is the same shown during gameplay when Dooku uses lightning. Its obviously his

What the hell are you even saying? The lightning comes from the sky? So it's not his, good to know.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We've already done this. Both me and Sidious66 agreed Dooku's were larger.

Yeah, because you both want it to be.

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How can you say Dooku's was larger? It's smaller. Look at the size of it compared to the width of the lightning bolts, which can clearly be seen to be about as big as Yoda's finger. Now look at Nox's feat where the explosion is vastly larger than the actual bolt of lightning.

Nox's is superior or at least equal, and you can see fragments flying away as well.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It destroyed a pipe are you serious?

Yes, because I just went through it frame by frame and theres no pipe. Stop making shit up to make Dooku better.