Why I think Vitiate may be the most powerful Sith ever

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Sinious
Well, SW Legend has a nice respect thread for Vitiate but I want to point out some of the important details of Vitiate's life that may make things more clear and less speculative when we debate his powers.

Aside from Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever quote and loosing to HoT in such a shameful way, there is a couple of things about Vitiate that makes his image(at least) look superior and more evil than any other Sith.

This isn't just about Vitiate vs Sidious but I will compare them often as Sidious has the throne that Vitiate claims.

First of all, his impressiveness had begun when he was born. Unlike any other Sith, his darkness was so clear that even his non-force user parents were able to see that there was something odd about him the moment he was born.

When Plagueis first met Palpatine, he didn't even suspect anything related to the force about Palpatine and he was a very powerful and wise sith lord. It took him 2-3 meetings with Palpatine to suspect and a couple more to finally realize that Sidious was a force potential. Vitiate's non force-sensitive father figured it out when Tenebrae was only six years old.

Vitiate was born with eyes as black as the void and even as a baby he never cried. He did not care about his family and felt no relativity to anything around him including his family. Palpatine had a normal childhood and he was kind of a young boy with daddy issues.

With no knowledge of the force or a master to train him, he was able to break his father's neck with TK and after he tortured his mother with his force powers. This too happened when he was only 6 years old. After finally killing his mother he had enough power to torture the other villagers he was neighbor to. He killed/stomped a Sith Lord at the age of 10.

Vitiate's early life is very important to understand his true power. Most of the Vitiate haters claim that Vitiate's powers are coming from his unnatural rituals but what he did till the age of 10 is enough to prove that he was very powerful by nature.

He had no power struggles or outer powers to distract him for more than 80 years which let him study the dark side of the force with his natural wisdom and talent of sorcery.

As the famous ritual he performed in Natemha was a success, he reached immortality like no other sith(including Plagueis and Sidious).

After consuming the powers of 8000 sith and an entire planet, he multiplied(at least tripled) his power which was already A LOT.

After this, we only know that he reconstructed the sith confederation and made it stronger than it ever was in the unknown regions of the galaxy. He became the Emperor of the Sith which is a very important detail. Not including the fake/false Emperor's in the EU, there are only 2 Sith that has gained the title Emperor. However, Sidious' title does not come from his high position in the sith hierarchy but his political reorganization of the republic. He is the Emperor of the senate and the commoners where Vitiate was of thousands of sith and his will was absolute. During his rule for 1300 years, he suppressed thousands of sith including dozens of extremely powerful Darths. Some of those darths would easily become a dark lord of their time if they were born in another era.

He made the Dread Masters obey him which is one of the most impressive feats that any jedi/sith has ever shown. He is the only sith that was almost worshipped like a god by so many force users.

He had no masters to train him yet only 80 years of his life as a mortal man was enough to achieve one of the most impressive force rituals ever made. Imagine how much he grew in power after the ritual and he spent not 80 but 1300 years this time to study the force with an even more wisdom and power.

A great Sith Lord like Scourge was trembling when he was in the presence of the Emperor. No such feats are shown for Sidious while those who were serving the Emperor had similar feats. Darth Jadus physically wounded those around him.

Vitiate's unseen effect on KOTOR era is also immense.

The Emperor tricked the Mandalorians to attack the republic to test its strength and cause some needed trouble in the known galaxy.

The battle on Malachor V was caused by his manipulations which created so many great characters like Darth Traya, the Exile, Darth Nihilus etc...

The assumption of Revan being weak before KOTOR era is a misconception. Pre-KOTOR Revan was the mighty champion of the republic, yet he was still dominated without a fight by Vitiate like a weakling when he faced the Emperor with his companion(Malak).

When the sith finally returned to known galaxy, they conquered half of of it. Many people compare Vitiate's empire to Sidious' empire and say that Sidious had a much bigger one. While this being true, Vitiate united the sith wandering around the galaxy and created a mighty SITH Empire where Sidious simply took over a republic that already had control of most of the galaxy. So this comparison doesn't make sense.

Palpatine was a very powerful sith and had great concentration on the concept of power and understanding of the force. Yet his focus wasn't pure with just these things as he pursued a political career and was able to remain a regular human life in Coruscant. His path to glory was much more humble and he had the benefit of taking over a plan designed 1000 years before he was born.

Vitiate had no emotions nor interests for human matters. He was so superior to other sith that even the concerns of most powerful Sith(like Bane, Exar Kun, Malgus...) would be no interest to him. He didn't respect anyone and never called anyone master. He cared nothing for the jedi or the sith yet he was able to dominate/manipulate them both. He took only the force itself as his enemy and wanted to consume the galaxy itself and had achieved some progress with his goals. Palpatine had a similar vision of galaxy annihilation yet he never showed anything to prove that he was capable of it. Vitiate's ritual at least proved that he had a chance to consume the galaxy into his own individualism.

Also while Palpatine has many wise quotes, he speaks with a more common consciousness level where every time Vitiate opens his mouth, a godlike oratory comes out.

As for my anti-thesis; even though Vitiate was weakened when he was defeated to HoT in his own chambers, it is still a big flaw in his story and cannot be ignored. His odd unfamiliarity with a lightsaber(possibly caused by the fact that he never needed one) and terrible mistake right before falling gives the signals of his lack of combat skills even though he is a great tactician. He may be a better combatant than most jedi/sith but he would be vulnerable if he was to fights top tier warriors like Luke, Yoda or Palpatine.

My conclusion on the matter of Vitiate vs Sidious(which also answers who the most powerful Sith that ever lived is) goes like this:

The first Emperor's story depicts a more darker, evil and wiser sith lord. Their in-combat force skills don't seem to surpress the other so I see them as equals on that matter. However, Vitiate's feats unrelated to combat are more impressive and Palpatine has better saber skills for sure.

So I believe that if they lived in the same era with a lot of other sith around, Vitaite would gain more support and fascination but if we are to compare them in a combat, Vitiate's vulnerability in saber fights would make Sidious the victor.

So yes, I accept that in a 1on1 combat, Sidious would most likely defeat Vitiate!

From my own point of view, Vitiate is the most inhuman, emotionless and evil character in the entire EU. His vision of power is unlike any other ambitious character and he dominated thousands of sith for centuries. I don't think any other sith would be able to remain in power in his empire for that long.

Nephthys
Logically speaking, I'd say that Vitiate is comfortably the most powerful Sith ever. He was an unprecedented prodigy and force wielder who then vastly increased his power by absorbed an ungodly amount of energy and is also constantly growing more powerful plus possesses what should be an incomparable grasp of the Force. Logically he should be far above anyone barring Luke.

The actual reality though is that that assertion isn't supported.

Sinious
Why barring Luke then? Im not saying Vitiate is > or = Luke but what exactly has Luke achieved that it would seem impossible for Vitiate?
An entire Dark Council vs Luke would end up with Luke dead. Same could be said for Abeloth even. And HoT would be destroyed by a dark council yet he managed to kill Vitiate. My point is, these things can change and a single performance in one combat shouldn't decide the characters position in the power hierarchy.

Nephthys
I only said that Vitiate isn't far above him. :V

Kalen Sykes
Luke is much more of a well-rounded character, imo. I'm not going to say Vitiate doesn't have any combat feats (he must have some combat ability in that Sith Empire), but Luke certainly has more to his name. Add to that Luke's power in the Force and I think that's what puts him above Vitiate. Then again, I'm of the mindset that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

Sinious
Oh sorry I misread a little. angel

I agree with you then.

Sinious
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
Luke is much more of a well-rounded character, imo. I'm not going to say Vitiate doesn't have any combat feats (he must have some combat ability in that Sith Empire), but Luke certainly has more to his name. Add to that Luke's power in the Force and I think that's what puts him above Vitiate. Then again, I'm of the mindset that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

The same thing applies with Luke I think. Vitiate may have more knowledge/power of the force but would fall because he hasn't the instinct and skill to thrive in a 1on1 combat so when Luke manages to come close to him, he would be able to slay him with his saber.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by Sinious
The same thing applies with Luke I think. Vitiate may have more knowledge/power of the force but would fall because he hasn't the instinct and skill to thrive in a 1on1 combat so when Luke manages to come close to him, he would be able to slay him with his saber.


Good point, but does Vitiate actually have more power in the Force than Luke? I know Vitiate is a Force Titan, but so is Sidious, and Luke has surpassed him.

Sinious
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
Good point, but does Vitiate actually have more power in the Force than Luke? I know Vitiate is a Force Titan, but so is Sidious, and Luke has surpassed him.

Here I find a bit inaccuracy. Vitiate haters don't accept Vitiate's power because they find the character and his story weak. I feel the same way about luke as he is more like an immature marvel superhero than a grand master of the jedi yet that doesn't give me the right to ignore his power. What they have achieved and their backstories should determine this. Luke was no prodigy of the force. He wasn't immortal. He couldn't do anything with the force without a master where Vitiate never had a master and already knew how to use the force by himself at the age of 6. Through training and high quantity of midi-chlorians, he may have gained a lot of power yet when it comes to pure force fight, I can see Vitiate defeating Luke. I don't see any/jedi being able to absorb/reflect/counter attack his force attacks with force attacks tbh. Only Luke and Sidious would have a chance.

Again though, when sabers are involved everything changes.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Sinious
Here I find a bit inaccuracy. Vitiate haters don't accept Vitiate's power because they find the character and his story weak. I feel the same way about luke as he is more like an immature marvel superhero than a grand master of the jedi yet that doesn't give me the right to ignore his power. What they have achieved and their backstories should determine this. Luke was no prodigy of the force. He wasn't immortal. He couldn't do anything with the force without a master where Vitiate never had a master and already knew how to use the force by himself at the age of 6. Through training and high quantity of midi-chlorians, he may have gained a lot of power yet when it comes to pure force fight, I can see Vitiate defeating Luke. I don't see any/jedi being able to absorb/reflect/counter attack his force attacks with force attacks tbh. Only Luke and Sidious would have a chance.

Again though, when sabers are involved everything changes.

Possibly. Pretty sure Revan, Scourge, and Meetra were better swordsmen than Vitiate too.

Nephthys
I'm gonna laugh if Vitiate comes back and it turns out he's been a saber god this entire time and he pwns the shit out of everyone.

Stealth Moose
So would I. Given that Legends canon is on its own, he might as ****in well be.

The_Tempest
mmm

You two claim not to have a particular investment in this character, but remarks like that strongly suggest otherwise.



This is fairly directly addressed in Darth Plagueis. Aside from vague misgivings, Plagueis doesn't suspect Palpatine's natural Force potential until he tries and fails to read his mind. His initial theory is that Palpatine, like Plagueis himself, learned to conceal his Force potential at a young age. Later on, when Palpatine loses his temper and reacts in the Force, Plagueis is amazed at the raw power being broadcast and concludes that the Force was so strong in Palpatine that it had concealed itself within him.

But beyond that, the person imbued with the strongest connection to the Force in the entire mythology is Anakin Skywalker. Like Palpatine, he didn't broadcast his strength in the Force to all in his presence beyond inspiring vague suspicions in Qui-Gon Jinn.

So rather than Vitiate simply being more powerful, it could very well be argued that characters like Palpatine and Anakin possess a much stronger, more advanced connection to the Force.



But this is where you lose me entirely. I'm at least willing to entertain the idea that Vitiate is Palpatine's equal or superior if only for the fact that he has the feats and accolades to compete with Darth Sidious as a Force user and scholar. (Though, in the end, myself and most others would conclude Sidious still enjoys an advantage.)

In the political realm, however, Vitiate's accomplishments don't remotely compare to Palpatine's. Palpatine's machinations with the Republic beginning in The Phantom Menace and concluding with Revenge of The Sith are simply mind boggling in scope and scale. And as far as Bane's millennium long plan is concerned, there is no evidence that Sidious was following a blueprint designed by his predecessors and, in fact, there exists evidence to the contrary. Palpatine crafted the working plan and did almost all the legwork (confirmed by Darth Maul: Lockdown, wherein Plagueis is confirmed to have only been apprised of the broad maneuvers of Palpatine's plot). He accomplished more in two decades than Vitiate did in a millennium.

When it comes to power, I freely admit that the two are close. When it comes to accomplishments, there are none that compare to Sidious.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

You two claim not to have a particular investment in this character, but remarks like that strongly suggest otherwise.

I'd just love to rub it in your faces. It isn't that I'm invested in the guy, I'd just like to stick it to the "Vitiate loses cuz he's slow and a feeb up close" guys.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd just love to rub it in your faces. It isn't that I'm invested in the guy, I'd just like to stick it to the "Vitiate loses cuz he's slow and a feeb up close" guys.

I only ever use that argument when you get silly as a means of putting you in your place (at my feet). And even then, it's tongue-in-cheek.

Still, I am pleased that your hatred is both intense and Tempest-created.

Nephthys
I was more talking about carthage and co.

Arhael
How early a character realizes force sensitivity is irrelevant.
First of all Vitiate was born on a planet corrupted by darkside. It is obvious that it would corrupt him at much earlier age and make him realize power much earlier.

Also, Vitiate was devilish from childhood, his desire to control others is another factor contributing to his early power realization.

Palatine in childhood wasn't evil, he gradually turned into one with slight help of Plagueis.

Sinious
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Possibly. Pretty sure Revan, Scourge, and Meetra were better swordsmen than Vitiate too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm gonna laugh if Vitiate comes back and it turns out he's been a saber god this entire time and he pwns the shit out of everyone.

I really want to see him return asap. So many things needs to be cleared out. At least some more information about his backstory would be nice. He obviously didn't just sit in his throne room for 1300 years so a lot of good stories about him can be written in that era.

I never take the Vitiate sucks with the saber thing seriously. I just use it to calm some of the movie fans.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
mmm

You two claim not to have a particular investment in this character, but remarks like that strongly suggest otherwise.



This is fairly directly addressed in Darth Plagueis. Aside from vague misgivings, Plagueis doesn't suspect Palpatine's natural Force potential until he tries and fails to read his mind. His initial theory is that Palpatine, like Plagueis himself, learned to conceal his Force potential at a young age. Later on, when Palpatine loses his temper and reacts in the Force, Plagueis is amazed at the raw power being broadcast and concludes that the Force was so strong in Palpatine that it had concealed itself within him.

That is true but still it doesn't even come close to what Vitiate achieved with the force as a kid. How old was Palpatine when he killed his father. Should be 15-20 something. Do you think he could turn a sith lord mad and then kill him? An average sith lord of TOR era would destroy 10 years old Palpatine.



I think you didn't get my point. Palpatine's political achievements are exactly what makes him look less evil. Vitiate was superior to Palpatine's methodology and already had an empire full of people that worshipped him. He is completely inhuman and lacks empathy for every living thing. Being sent into the republic as a spy politician would be an insult to him.




Debatable.

Sinious
Originally posted by Arhael
How early a character realizes force sensitivity is irrelevant.
First of all Vitiate was born on a planet corrupted by darkside. It is obvious that it would corrupt him at much earlier age and make him realize power much earlier.

I think Natemha became corrupted after the ritual of Vitiate was finished, not before Vitiate was born.



This just proves my point.

Arhael
Originally posted by Sinious
I think Natemha became corrupted after the ritual of Vitiate was finished, not before Vitiate was born.



This just proves my point.

It was a Sith planet ruled by Sith. How would it not be corrupted? Child was exposed to dark aura even before being born by mere fact that his father was a Sith Lord.

Proves what point? Sidious became as pure evil as it gets, so doesn't matter what he was like in childhood.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
That is true but still it doesn't even come close to what Vitiate achieved with the force as a kid.

How old was Palpatine when he killed his father. Should be 15-20 something. Do you think he could turn a sith lord mad and then kill him? An average sith lord of TOR era would destroy 10 years old Palpatine.


...Vitiate is more powerful than Palpatine because Palpatine didn't kill his Sith Lord father at age 6?

http://media3.giphy.com/media/Qy9hRuWrKjY2I/giphy.gif

Your conclusion might be fine if the comparison were valid, but it's not. Palpatine's father wasn't a Sith Lord nor was Naboo populated by Sith. His circumstances were totally different. The fact that he was in his teens when he butchered his family has no bearing on his Force power. I'm honestly not sure what the hell you're talking about.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think you didn't get my point. Palpatine's political achievements are exactly what makes him look less evil.

Galaxy-wide conspiracy, war crimes, genocide, and tyranny make him look less evil?

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate was superior to Palpatine's methodology

https://confessionsofabookgeek.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/tumblr_inline_mg4mbsjhfp1ry4qim.gif

I think you mean Vitiate was more of a megalomaniac and I may or may not be inclined to agree.

Originally posted by Sinious
and already had an empire full of people that worshipped him.

Sure, due to a massive cult of personality he'd cultivated for a thousand years. Palpatine waltzed into the Senate and claimed galactic power in just a few decades.

Originally posted by Sinious
He is completely inhuman and lacks empathy for every living thing. Being sent into the republic as a spy politician would be an insult to him.

lol

Pretty sure Palpatine wasn't driven by empathy when he pursued a career in politics.

Originally posted by Sinious
Debatable.

Not really.

PTforthewin
Sidious is the strongest sith of all time and will remain so,

carthage
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd just love to rub it in your faces. It isn't that I'm invested in the guy, I'd just like to stick it to the "Vitiate loses cuz he's slow and a feeb up close" guys.

Which you never bothered to refute with feats, and promptly conceded and put me on your ignore list. Lol

Sinious
Originally posted by Arhael
It was a Sith planet ruled by Sith. How would it not be corrupted? Child was exposed to dark aura even before being born by mere fact that his father was a Sith Lord.


So what? If thats the case then every jedi born in Coruscant and every sith born in Korriban has an advantageous position that makes them less respectable. lol

Oh and Luke's father was the chosen one and this fact is always used as an impressive feat for Luke so why is this a bad thing for Vitiate?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
...Vitiate is more powerful than Palpatine because Palpatine didn't kill his Sith Lord father at age 6?

Your conclusion might be fine if the comparison were valid, but it's not. Palpatine's father wasn't a Sith Lord nor was Naboo populated by Sith. His circumstances were totally different. The fact that he was in his teens when he butchered his family has no bearing on his Force power. I'm honestly not sure what the hell you're talking about.

Don't manipulate the context of my words. I've never stated such a thing. There are a lot Sidious fanboys who keep saying that Vitiate's power is unnatural and comes from his rituals and that he relies on nexus. Vitiate's youth proves that he was born extremely powerful and that he is possibly the most prodigious force-user sith ever.

It has. He wasn't surrounded by force users. Sure there were some in the planet but it wasn't like Korriban or Coruscant. Even top tiers like Luke wasn't able to use the force at all without some training so it is an impressive feat worth mentioning.




A more common evil at least compared to Vitiate. If you cannot see the superiority of his style in this regard, I can't tell you anything.

No I don't mean that.




You call Vitiate's empire a cult? Wow. I don't know what to tell you. He had thousands of sith beneath him and none were able to overthrow him where Sidious was killed by the only other Sith in his empire.

Vitiate never wanted a political sith galactic dominance. He cared nothing of the sith or the jedi. He simply wanted to consume the galaxy.




Again, did I say Palpatine was driven by empathy? No. Why are you trying so hard to manipulate the subject? I obviously meant that he lacked empathy and the part where I compared him to Sidious was about being inhuman which he is. Palpatine has a more relatable story where Vitaite is like a mythologic being/god.


Man honestly, it is obvious that you are not debating to find a truth but to prove Sidious' superiority whether it is true or not. I personally am not sure which one is stronger and I think the more information we get about Vitiate, the more clear this will be.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
Don't manipulate the context of my words. I've never stated such a thing.

I'm not manipulating anything; you're just making little sense.

Originally posted by Sinious
There are a lot Sidious fanboys who keep saying that Vitiate's power is unnatural and comes from his rituals and that he relies on nexus. Vitiate's youth proves that he was born extremely powerful and that he is possibly the most prodigious force-user sith ever.

No one disputes that Vitiate was a prodigy by birth; what is in dispute is the notion that killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow makes him more prodigious than young!Sidious, which was the thrust of your argument.

Originally posted by Sinious
It has. He wasn't surrounded by force users. Sure there were some in the planet but it wasn't like Korriban or Coruscant. Even top tiers like Luke wasn't able to use the force at all without some training so it is an impressive feat worth mentioning.

And as I already told you, the person with the greatest Force potential of all (Anakin Skywalker) was more like Palpatine than Vitiate in that he didn't broadcast his Force strength or go around conquering planets. All you've proven is that Vitiate was a prodigy (which was never in dispute), not that Vitiate is more prodigious or powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by Sinious
A more common evil at least compared to Vitiate. If you cannot see the superiority of his style in this regard, I can't tell you anything.

Hardly. I've already shown you that this is another element in which Vitiate is a Sidious rip-off. Palpatine's universal megalomania has its origins in the early '90s and The Dark Empire Sourcebook. The only difference between the two is that Sidious achieved more and still worked quietly towards that ultimate goal.

Originally posted by Sinious
No I don't mean that.

Then WTF does "Vitiate is superior to Sidious's metholodogy" mean?

Originally posted by Sinious
You call Vitiate's empire a cult? Wow. I don't know what to tell you.

facepalm

Time to brush up on some terminology.

Originally posted by Sinious
He had thousands of sith beneath him and none were able to overthrow him where Sidious was killed by the only other Sith in his empire.

...Your point?

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate never wanted a political sith galactic dominance. He cared nothing of the sith or the jedi. He simply wanted to consume the galaxy.

Nah. If Vitiate cared nothing for political dominance, he'd have never initiated the war the way he did and would have instead waited in the shadows until the right time to achieve apotheosis. Galactic conquest just wasn't his ultimate goal (neither was it Palpatine's).

Originally posted by Sinious
Again, did I say Palpatine was driven by empathy? No. Why are you trying so hard to manipulate the subject? I obviously meant that he lacked empathy and the part where I compared him to Sidious was about being inhuman which he is. Palpatine has a more relatable story where Vitaite is like a mythologic being/god.

Sounds like you need to start reconsidering your phrasing. If you meant that Palpatine has a more empathetic story than Vitiate, then you should probably state it that way.

Originally posted by Sinious
Man honestly, it is obvious that you are not debating to find a truth but to prove Sidious' superiority whether it is true or not. I personally am not sure which one is stronger and I think the more information we get about Vitiate, the more clear this will be.

So you draft a post full of random factoids, half irrelevant and half erroneous, for the sole purpose of trumpeting Vitiate... and that's "finding a truth." Meanwhile, I refute you systematically and I'm just a fanboy?

laughing out loud

You're going to have a hard time here. erm

PTforthewin
Luke skywalker is the chosen one

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not manipulating anything; you're just making little sense.

When have I ever said that Vitiate's youth just by itself, proves that he is more powerful than Sidious?



Actually, a lot of people do just that. He killed the Lord at the age of 10. And do you really think that Sidious could pull it off?




Anakin was always limited by his character. No matter how much potential he had, he was too stupid to understand the nature of the force and he could never become as manipulative as Sidious/Vitiate or as wise as Yoda. He was always distracted by very unimportant things for other force users. Havin a lot of midi-chlorians is not the only thing that determines how much prodigious one person is.





Yep I remember. I am still amazed by it. Though just because he was written before Sidious doesn't make him less powerful. Also Vitaite got much closer to consuming the galaxy. And in the story, Vitiate is the one who tried it first.

I mean that Vitiate wouldn't bother doing things that Palpatine has done.





Don't be so harsh man I aint no native speaker. embarrasment



I don't think Palpatine would be able to rule that Empire. A Dark Council would fry his ass within the first century.



Vitiate never cared about winning the war. He just wanted a long lasting galaxy wide conflict that would help him with his ritual. If the sith would win and take over the galaxy, it would probably be harder for him to complete his ritual.



I never said anything about relating Palpatine to empathy. Let me rephrase what I think about this:

They both lack empathy but Vitiate is more inhuman.




Irrelevant and erroneous? Why cause it makes our beloved Palp look weaker than what people claim him to be? And you systematically refute me? lol right.

All I am saying is that there is at least a chance. Vitate may or may not be the most powerful sith. You just want everyone to accept that Palpatine would destroy him no matter what.



thanks

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
When have I ever said that Vitiate's youth just by itself, proves that he is more powerful than Sidious?

...I never said you said that. no expression

Originally posted by Sinious
Actually, a lot of people do just that. He killed the Lord at the age of 10. And do you really think that Sidious could pull it off?

Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.

Originally posted by Sinious
Anakin was always limited by his character. No matter how much potential he had, he was too stupid to understand the nature of the force and he could never become as manipulative as Sidious/Vitiate or as wise as Yoda. He was always distracted by very unimportant things for other force users. Havin a lot of midi-chlorians is not the only thing that determines how much prodigious one person is.

Cool story. Bottom line is that Anakin's story is proof enough that killing Force users and conquering worlds in between daytime naps doesn't make you more powerful in the Force than a guy who doesn't.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yep I remember. I am still amazed by it. Though just because he was written before Sidious doesn't make him less powerful. Also Vitaite got much closer to consuming the galaxy. And in the story, Vitiate is the one who tried it first.

Again, cool story. Doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is a pale imitation of Sidious, which is off-topic anyway.

Originally posted by Sinious
I mean that Vitiate wouldn't bother doing things that Palpatine has done.

So what?

Originally posted by Sinious
Don't be so harsh man I aint no native speaker. embarrasment

That's okay. But it's probably best you don't accuse people of manipulating your words if, by your own admission, you're a bit clumsy with them. Understand?

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't think Palpatine would be able to rule that Empire. A Dark Council would fry his ass within the first century.

laughing out loud

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate never cared about winning the war. He just wanted a long lasting galaxy wide conflict that would help him with his ritual. If the sith would win and take over the galaxy, it would probably be harder for him to complete his ritual.

Until he was psychically manipulated by Revan into suing for peace? Talk about something that Palpatine wouldn't have let happen....

Originally posted by Sinious
They both lack empathy but Vitiate is more inhuman.

Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.

Originally posted by Sinious
Irrelevant and erroneous? Why cause it makes our beloved Palp look weaker than what people claim him to be? And you systematically refute me? lol right.

Yes, because Palpatine not killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow retcons his ability to destroy fleets of ships unaided in Dark Empire. Get a grip, son. Palpatine has the feats and accolades that make him, at the very least, Vitiate's equal. Their dissimilar origins change nothing.

Originally posted by Sinious
All I am saying is that there is at least a chance. Vitate may or may not be the most powerful sith. You just want everyone to accept that Palpatine would destroy him no matter what.

Cool story.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
...I never said you said that. no expression



Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.



Cool story. Bottom line is that Anakin's story is proof enough that killing Force users and conquering worlds in between daytime naps doesn't make you more powerful in the Force than a guy who doesn't.



Again, cool story. Doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is a pale imitation of Sidious, which is off-topic anyway.



So what?



That's okay. But it's probably best you don't accuse people of manipulating your words if, by your own admission, you're a bit clumsy with them. Understand?



laughing out loud



Until he was psychically manipulated by Revan into suing for peace? Talk about something that Palpatine wouldn't have let happen....



Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.



Yes, because Palpatine not killing his Sith Lord father at age 6 somehow retcons his ability to destroy fleets of ships unaided in Dark Empire. Get a grip, son. Palpatine has the feats and accolades that make him, at the very least, Vitiate's equal. Their dissimilar origins change nothing.



Cool story.

Thanks, this was a cool story as well.

PTforthewin
Pure evil? Sidious never went out in public and slaughtered innocent people, he never ordered the clones to kill innocents, he only tried to kill all the jedi,

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by PTforthewin
Luke skywalker is the chosen one


Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Do I think that teenage!Palpatine could kill a random Sith Lord? Yeah, probably.

But that's not what they asked. The question was "could Palpatine have killed a Sith Lord while Palpatine was a little boy with no training at all?"

Personally I don't think he could.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So what?

So Vitiate is more overtly inhuman and monstrous/more like a mythological being which is what this is about. The whole point of this thread is that Vitiate is more inhuman and more akin to a primordial force of destruction than a mortal man because he is so utterly incapable of anything even resembling humanity or empathy.


Originally posted by The_Tempest
Debatable. The difference between the two is that Palpatine is clever enough to appear human and empathetic.

Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.

To clarify, this is not meant to be any kind of mark against Palpatine. No one's arguing how powerful or how evil he was. The point is simply that Vitiate is a different kind of evil.

To put it another way it's like comparing the Marvel villains Venom and Kaine. Both had different M.O.'s, Kaine was very much a silent stalker watching from the shadows while Venom was more direct. This doesn't make either one "better" than the other, just different.

SIDIOUS 66
The force perceived both Plagueis and Palpatine as greater threats than it did any other sith (Palpatine more so considering that it was his death that brought balance to and satisfied the force). As I said in another thread, even God-like beings (Force Priestesses) directly interfered to guide certain jedi such as Yoda towards a path to defeating Sidious.

Palpatine even as of ROTS was the most powerful sith in history as far as natural power. This could be due to the fact that he had the most intimate bond with the dark side, as the Plagueis novel suggests that Sidious and the dark side basically became one, being in complete harmony with one another (Palpatine even mused that as a child, he would hear a voice telling that no harm would come to him whenever he felt threatened. The implication being that it was the dark side whispering to him, and that even before he had any connection to the sith, Palpatine was intimately connected to the dark side from birth despite coming from a family of non-force sensitives and living on a planet that wasn't tainted by the dark side nor was it population with dark siders.). The ROTS novel, while filled with hyperbole, implies that the dark side was spread throughout the galaxy with Palpatine being it's darkest center, draining light from the galaxy. This is how he was able to blunt jedi sensitivity (clouding their senses) on a galactic scale, leading them to their death traps. Palpatine's and Vitiate's methods may have been a bit different, but in the end Palpatine was the most successful of the two, and the force regarded him as a greater threat than it did Vitiate, hence the creation of the chosen one.

IMO, I find it inappropriate for another sith to be more powerful than Palpatine, as Palpatine is the big bad in the most important era of SW history, where the chosen one was created by the force itself to bring about his down fall. He was stated by Lucas to represent the devil, and the New Essential Guide to Characters referred to him as "the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known." Yes, these statements were made before the creation of Vitiate's character, but the creation of Vitiate's character does nothing to undermine those statements, as Palpatine still had the greater impact on the force, and was regarded by the force itself as being a greater threat, hence the creation of the chosen one and the interference of god-like beings to guide certain jedi towards a path to his downfall. In terms of accolades Vitiate comes close; however, regarding feats and the affect they had on the force, Palpatine beats him pretty solidly.

Sinious
Originally posted by chilled monkey
But that's not what they asked. The question was "could Palpatine have killed a Sith Lord while Palpatine was a little boy with no training at all?"

Personally I don't think he could.



So Vitiate is more overtly inhuman and monstrous/more like a mythological being which is what this is about. The whole point of this thread is that Vitiate is more inhuman and more akin to a primordial force of destruction than a mortal man because he is so utterly incapable of anything even resembling humanity or empathy.




Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.

To clarify, this is not meant to be any kind of mark against Palpatine. No one's arguing how powerful or how evil he was. The point is simply that Vitiate is a different kind of evil.

To put it another way it's like comparing the Marvel villains Venom and Kaine. Both had different M.O.'s, Kaine was very much a silent stalker watching from the shadows while Venom was more direct. This doesn't make either one "better" than the other, just different.


thumb up thumb up thumb up

Exactly. Im pretty sure it was clear to everyone. He worked so hard to misunderstand/manipulate the topic so that Sidious remains the most powerful sith.


@The_Tempest It got unnecessarily ugly for no reason. My name on this forum is Sinious. Why would you want to defend Sidious so badly against me lol

This is not a versus thread after all.

Nephthys
I don't see how Palpatine and Plagueis were bigger threats to the Force than Vitiate, at all.

It's frankly silly to suggest it.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah but that's the point. He could at least appear to be human and a good guy. Vitiate was so utterly alien to humanity and empathy that he couldn't have done that if he tried.


Are you implying that Vitiate was so inhuman that he didn't know the difference between good and evil, or that he was just too retarded to pretend to be good? If it's the former, the fact that he calls himself irredeemable suggests otherwise.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how Palpatine and Plagueis were bigger threats to the Force than Vitiate, at all.

It's frankly silly to suggest it.


The fact that the force perceived them that way, and the fact that they were, Palpatine especially. I think it's silly to argue otherwise.

The_Tempest
thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The fact that the force perceived them that way, and the fact that they were, Palpatine especially. I think it's silly to argue otherwise.

Theres no source stating that. It responded to their assault on it, but that doesn't they were an unequaled threat or anything.

Vitiate represented a significantly greater threat than Sidious did. Without Scourge and the Hero of Tython, Vitiate would absorb the Force of the galaxy. That's well more of a threat than "kills lots of dudes."

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate represented a significantly greater threat than Sidious did.

Nay, fool.

Nephthys
Ok, I'll bite.

What threat did Sidious represent to the Force?

Because utter annihilation of all life and complete absorption of the galaxy is a really ****ing hard act to beat.

Eminence
Old Daka, with prep.

red8
Kreia solos

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no source stating that. It responded to their assault on it, but that doesn't they were an unequaled threat or anything.


As I said, Anakin didn't fulfill his prophecy as the chosen one until he destroyed Sidious. Which means Sidious control and hold over the force was the main cause of the imbalance, which is why the dark side was diffused upon his death. And I did quote a source. The best you can do is say, "well Vitiate's character didn't exist" as if that changes Palpatine's roll.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate represented a significantly greater threat than Sidious did. Without Scourge and the Hero of Tython, Vitiate would absorb the Force of the galaxy. That's well more of a threat than "kills lots of dudes."


And without Luke, Leia and her unborn children, Palpatine would have consumed all of space. What they were planning on doing or what they were about to do is irrelevant if it didn't happen. It's what they actually did, and Palpatine and Plagueis did more.

For all I know, the ritual might not have worked. All I know is that Vitiate wasn't perceived by the force as being a greater threat than Palpatine. God-like beings didn't interfere to guide certain jedi towards a path in defeating Vitiate, or did they?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, I'll bite.

What threat did Sidious represent to the Force?

Because utter annihilation of all life and complete absorption of the galaxy is a really ****ing hard act to beat.

Let the words of Publius soothe you. (The Apotheosis of Palpatine)

Also, as SIDIOUS66 has pointed out, Word of God. erm

Palpatine is betterer than Vitiate in every possible way, b1tch.

Sinious
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And without Luke, Leia and her unborn children, Palpatine would have consumed all of space. What they were planning on doing or what they were about to do is irrelevant if it didn't happen.

Palpatine had the vision of galaxy annihilation sure but he never made any progress. He achieved political galaxy dominance but never a ritualistic galaxy wise force consuming where the character Vitiate was built on his galaxy consuming plans and how he almost achieved it.

I'll admit though, the dark side itself talking to Palpatine to make him feel secure is pretty impressive and evil.

Nephthys
I'm not even clicking on that link. I guess you can't come up with an actual reason for why Palpatine was a greater threat than Vitiate.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As I said, Anakin didn't fulfill his prophecy as the chosen one until he destroyed Sidious. Which means Sidious control and hold over the force was the main cause of the imbalance, which is why the dark side was diffused upon his death. And I did quote a source. The best you can do is say, "well Vitiate's character didn't exist" as if that changes Palpatine's roll.

So what? Oh no, Palpatine was tipping the Force towards the darkside! That's totally comparable to consuming the entire galaxy!

Vitiate being more evil than Vitiate also means nothing. So what?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And without Luke, Leia and her unborn children, Palpatine would have consumed all of space. What they were planning on doing or what they were about to do is irrelevant if it didn't happen. It's what they actually did, and Palpatine and Plagueis did more.

For all I know, the ritual might not have worked. All I know is that Vitiate wasn't perceived by the force as being a greater threat than Palpatine. God-like beings didn't interfere to guide certain jedi towards a path in defeating Vitiate, or did they?

roll eyes (sarcastic) Consume all space ok sure.

How do you know that the Force didn't perceive him as the greater threat? Just because it didn't magic up a Skywalker doesn't mean anything. It could easily have been behind Scourges vision. Scourge's vision itself is a equal to the prophecy of the Chosen One anyway.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not even clicking on that link. I guess you can't come up with an actual reason for why Palpatine was a greater threat than Vitiate.

Did you just try to quan me? laughing out loud

I guess you just don't want to read such things, in which case the point is moot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge's vision itself is a equal to the prophecy of the Chosen One anyway.

laughing out loud

What a fanboy.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's what they actually did, and Palpatine and Plagueis did more.


And as Publius' article points out, Palpatine was on his way to do even more. So what Palpatine was planning on doing was more threatening, considering what he already did in a shorter amount of time. He accomplished more, and was planning on accomplishing even more.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not even clicking on that link. I guess you can't come up with an actual reason for why Palpatine was a greater threat than Vitiate.




So what? Oh no, Palpatine was tipping the Force towards the darkside! That's totally comparable to consuming the entire galaxy!

Vitiate being more evil than Vitiate also means nothing. So what?



roll eyes (sarcastic) Consume all space ok sure.

How do you know that the Force didn't perceive him as the greater threat? Just because it didn't magic up a Skywalker doesn't mean anything. It could easily have been behind Scourges vision. Scourge's vision itself is a equal to the prophecy of the Chosen One anyway.


Dude why did you quote me for this?

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
How do you know that the Force didn't perceive him as the greater threat? Just because it didn't magic up a Skywalker doesn't mean anything. It could easily have been behind Scourges vision. Scourge's vision itself is a equal to the prophecy of the Chosen One anyway.

thumb up

HoT is kind of the chosen one of TOR era.


Anakin didn't just show up in the galaxy. Plagueis and Palpatine were experimenting on midi-chlorians and their arrogant attempts to manipulate the force caused the birth of Anakin. That specific biblical theme of PT story is more related to Plagueis' experiments than Palpatine's powers.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
thumb up

HoT is kind of the chosen one of TOR era.


Anakin didn't just show up in the galaxy. Plagueis and Palpatine were experimenting on midi-chlorians and their arrogant attempts to manipulate the force caused the birth of Anakin. That specific biblical theme of PT story is more related to Plagueis' experiments than Palpatine's powers.

Actually, no, Plagueis's theory is that Anakin's emergence is due to Palpatine and Plagueis's ritual to topple the Force (which is a really stupid chapter btw in an otherwise good book).

Lord Stark
Wait...you think HoT=Max Potential Anakin?
http://www.pictureshack.us/images/52048_universal-ryoma.gif

Sinious
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wait...you think HoT=Max Potential Anakin?


If you're asking that to me, no of course i don't.

The_Tempest
Swear fealty to His Imperial Majesty, Darth Sidious, plebe.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Oh no, Palpatine was tipping the Force towards the darkside! That's totally comparable to consuming the entire galaxy!


Oh, no, Vitiate was planning on doing some stuff.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate being more evil than Vitiate also means nothing. So what?


What?

The quote was under Vader's entry, stating that he brought balance by destroying "the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known." I think you get the implication.



Originally posted by Nephthys
roll eyes (sarcastic) Consume all space ok sure.


Consume the galaxy and become a farmer, painter, dancer etc... sure ok. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Nephthys
How do you know that the Force didn't perceive him as the greater threat? Just because it didn't magic up a Skywalker doesn't mean anything. It could easily have been behind Scourges vision. Scourge's vision itself is a equal to the prophecy of the Chosen One anyway.


It didn't magic up a force user with the greatest potential against Vitiate, because the HoT holding out his saber while Vitiate runs into it was enough to stop him.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, no, Vitiate was planning on doing some stuff.

This made me lol.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Did you just try to quan me? laughing out loud

I guess you just don't want to read such things, in which case the point is moot.



laughing out loud

What a fanboy.

I'm not reading a goddamn essay when you could just write the answer in 20 seconds you ****ing asscheese.

What? It's a vision about a champion emerging to destroy a monumental threat. It's one of the many things they blatantly ripped off from the movies.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dude why did you quote me for this?

I was replying to you in the other thread and forgot to copy SIDIOUS 69's thing.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Consume the galaxy and become a farmer, painter, dancer etc... sure ok. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Does that mean Vitiate would've become a porn star at some point in his reality?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Does that mean Vitiate would've become a porn star at some point in his reality?

Yup. And a janitor.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, no, Plagueis's theory is that Anakin's emergence is due to Palpatine and Plagueis's ritual to topple the Force (which is a really stupid chapter btw in an otherwise good book).

So he emerged because of the ritual that Plagueis and his apprentice performed. How is that more related to Sidious than Palpatine?

Anakin's faith was more related to Sidious of course but the magical way he came to life isn't a proof of Palpatine's power or being a greater threat to galaxy is what I mean.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Oh, no, Vitiate was planning on doing some stuff.

Yes, that's what they call a..... "threat." erm


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What?

The quote was under Vader's entry, stating that he brought balance by destroying "the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known." I think you get the implication.

Nope. So Sidious was more evil than Vitiate? Good for him.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Consume the galaxy and become a farmer, painter, dancer etc... sure ok. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Right, except for Vitiate's ritual not being blatantly retarded and proven to actually be capable of doing such a thing.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It didn't magic up a force user with the greatest potential against Vitiate, because the HoT holding out his saber while Vitiate runs into it was enough to stop him.

And Sidious being chucked over a railing was enough to stop him.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
So he emerged because of the ritual that Plagueis and his apprentice performed. How is that more related to Sidious than Palpatine?

Anakin's faith was more related to Sidious of course but the magical way he came to life isn't a proof of Palpatine's power or being a greater threat to galaxy is what I mean.

The threat originated with Plagueis and Palpatine. Then Plagueis died and the Force remained out of balance and Anakin's destiny was still necessary. Ultimately, the enduring danger that needed to be removed was Palpatine.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious being chucked over a railing was enough to stop him.

By the dude with the greatest Force potential. Not just one of the strongest Padawans in generations or whatever the quote was.

SIDIOUS has you by the balls, bro.

Lord Stark
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not reading a goddamn essay when you could just write the answer in 20 seconds you ****ing asscheese.

What? It's a vision about a champion emerging to destroy a monumental threat. It's one of the many things they blatantly ripped off from the movies.



I was replying to you in the other thread and forgot to copy SIDIOUS 69's thing.


Just stop trying to flirt with me I'm not interested. erm

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The threat originated with Plagueis and Palpatine. Then Plagueis died and the Force remained out of balance and Anakin's destiny was still necessary. Ultimately, the enduring danger that needed to be removed was Palpatine.

And how does this make Sidious a greater threat than Vitiate?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
And how does this make Sidious a greater threat than Vitiate?

Because the Force conjured up a Messiah figure ex nihilo to stop him?

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because the Force conjured up a Messiah figure ex nihilo to stop him?

Again, the force didn't conjure Anakin to stop just Sidious. Plagueis was the master when he emerged. When Sidious killed his master in his sleep (cause he wasn't strong enough to do it face to face), he was the only threat left.

Nothing about this suggests that Vitiate is less of a threat to the galaxy. His almost successful ritual is more dangerous to the force.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
Again, the force didn't conjure Anakin to stop just Sidious. Plagueis was the master when he emerged. When Sidious killed his master in his sleep (cause he wasn't strong enough to do it face to face), he was the only threat left.

And if Plagueis were the problem, one would imagine that special destiny would have evaporated. Instead, Sidious was the enduring threat that needed to be addressed.

Originally posted by Sinious
Nothing about this suggests that Vitiate is less of a threat to the galaxy. His almost successful ritual is more dangerous to the force.

You seem upset that your favorite character didn't warrant special redress by the Force itself. You should deal with that in your own time, bro.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest

You seem upset that your favorite character didn't warrant special redress by the Force itself. You should deal with that in your own time, bro.

As a big fan of Darth Sidious, I am truly impressed by your senseless defense mechanism for him. It is as if you're defending your boyfriend or something.

I really wouldn't call anyone a fanboy if I were you at this point.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
As a big fan of Darth Sidious, I am truly impressed by your senseless defense mechanism for him. It is as if you're defending your boyfriend or something.

I really wouldn't call anyone a fanboy if I were you at this point.

http://www.oocities.org/the_emperor1981/pictures/faces/coyish_smile-boyish_charm.jpg

It's that dreamy smile...

Still doesn't change the fact that you're really upset about the fact that no one cares about Vitiate in-universe or out-.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Sinious
As a big fan of Darth Sidious, I am truly impressed by your senseless defense mechanism for him. It is as if you're defending your boyfriend or something.

I really wouldn't call anyone a fanboy if I were you at this point.

You should read the essay he wrote on him about why Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. Was it 7 pages? I can't recall.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, that's what they call a..... "threat." erm


To bad the force didn't perceive him as such.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope. So Sidious was more evil than Vitiate? Good for him.


So Anakin brought balance to the force because he destroyed a really evil man? Wonder why Tarkin's death didn't bring balance.

Stop being silly, Neph.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, except for Vitiate's ritual not being blatantly retarded and proven to actually be capable of doing such a thing.


Vitiate's ritual is equally retarded. Again, your opinion isn't canon, Neph. How many times do I have to remind you? You can't throw out one source because you dislike it, and consider another because you want to fan-wank a certain character.

Fact is, the force didn't regard Vitiate as much of a threat as it did Palpatine.




Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious being chucked over a railing was enough to stop him.


I believe one source implied that Vader had entered a state of oneness with the force by that point, so it could have possibly been a full potential Anakin who overthrew Sidious.

Regardless, Sidious was busy pwning Luke and was taking by surprise by a physical power house.

The_Tempest
I think we have enough proof to label Neph and Vitiate fanboy. He gets so defensive about him, especially when Sidious enters the fray.

Nephthys
Oh no, did I hurt your feelings babe?

Sinious
@ Temp You're the only one here who seems upset. I love both characters and enjoy both their stories. Unlike you I am fine with either of them being the strongest sith ever. Perhaps even add Nihilus as another candidate. You wouldn't be able to sleep tonight if you hadn't pulled the sh*t you displayed on this thread.

The_Tempest
You still trying to quan me? laughing out loud

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
You should read the essay he wrote on him about why Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. Was it 7 pages? I can't recall.

and he calls me a fanboy for creating this thread. rolling on floor laughing

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Sinious
@ Temp You're the only one here who seems upset. I love both characters and enjoy both their stories. Unlike you I am fine with either of them being the strongest sith ever. Perhaps even add Nihilus as another candidate. You wouldn't be able to sleep tonight if you hadn't pulled the sh*t you displayed on this thread.

I'm simply furious, bro. Which is why I posted a picture of Sidious and engaged in self-deprecating humor, remarking on the Dark Lord's beautiful smile.

You need to English betterer.

Lord Stark
Man the Vitiate wank in this thread is unreal. Its like every male TOR character let out a load of splooge onto Neph before he started typing his replies.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Man the Vitiate wank in this thread is unread. Its like every male TOR character let out a load of splooge onto Neph before he started typing his replies.
Maybe they watched the Woman in White with all of their ladies.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm simply furious, bro. Which is why I posted a picture of Sidious and engaged in self-deprecating humor, remarking on the Dark Lord's beautiful smile.

You need to English betterer.

Irrelevant. A joke won't help you suppress your fanboy image now.

The_Tempest
no expression

Yes, no one knew about my predilection for Sidious until now. You've outed me.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I think we have enough proof to label Neph and Vitiate fanboy. He gets so defensive about him, especially when Sidious enters the fray.

lol

BTW, who is sinious? His thread was so random.

Sinious
You're welcome KMC. smart

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Sinious
You're welcome KMC. smart


It's like you've been reading so many proven arguments of Sidious' superiority over Vitiate and couldn't take it anymore.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
To bad the force didn't perceive him as such.

From an objective standpoint, Vitiate's actions posed more of a threat to the Force than Sidious' did. Sorry, but there's no getting around that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So Anakin brought balance to the force because he destroyed a really evil man? Wonder why Tarkin's death didn't bring balance.

Stop being silly, Neph.

He brought balance by destroying Sidious. Sidious being the most evil dude ever is merely a description of him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate's ritual is equally retarded. Again, your opinion isn't canon, Neph. How many times do I have to remind you? You can't throw out one source because you dislike it, and consider another because you want to fan-wank a certain character.

Fact is, the force didn't regard Vitiate as much of a threat as it did Palpatine.

It's not even close to being as retarded.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe one source implied that Vader had entered a state of oneness with the force by that point, so it could have possibly been a full potential Anakin who overthrew Sidious.

Regardless, Sidious was busy pwning Luke and was taking by surprise by a physical power house.

Sure, keep coming up with excuses for why Sidious is totally cool and Vitiate is killer lame. thumb up

At the end of the day, predestined events occurred that lead to both of their downfalls. Theres no difference.

Sinious
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's like you've been reading so many proven arguments of Sidious' superiority over Vitiate and couldn't take it anymore.

Not really. Sidious is one if my favorite characters and even my name here is inspired by him ffs.

One Vitiate thread seems to be enough to ruin your evening however.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
From an objective standpoint, Vitiate's actions posed more of a threat to the Force than Sidious' did. Sorry, but there's no getting around that.


They both planned on doing almost the same thing, except Sidious actually achieved far more in a shorter amount of time. His existence was harming the force, which is why his death is what brought balance to it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He brought balance by destroying Sidious. Sidious being the most evil dude ever is merely a description of him.


In that context being the greatest evil wasn't referring to how evil Sidious was, but the threat of his evilness and what he did and was doing, which exceeds anything Vitiate has ever done by a huge margin.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not even close to being as retarded.


It is to me. Even more so.

How could anything be more retarded than becoming a farmer, a painter, a poet, a fisher, and everything he ever wanted to be all at the same time?




Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, keep coming up with excuses for why Sidious is totally cool and Vitiate is killer lame. thumb up


Vitiate is lame, though. He's extremely powerful, but extremely lame as well.


Originally posted by Nephthys
At the end of the day, predestined events occurred that lead to both of their downfalls. Theres no difference.


At the end of the day, the force created a being with the greatest potential in order to bring about Sidious' downfall and cut him off his hold over the dark side, which was the reigning side of the force at that time, with Palpatine being in control over it. God-like beings directly interfered to guide jedi such as Yoda towards a path in defeating Sidious. No such things happened with Vitiate, because the force didn't perceive him as much of a threat.


Originally posted by Sinious
Not really. Sidious is one if my favorite characters and even my name here is inspired by him ffs.


That's what you want us to believe.

Originally posted by Sinious
One Vitiate thread seems to be enough to ruin your evening however.


If you would have provided anything to suggest that Vitiate was superior to Sidious, then perhaps you might have ruined my evening; but you haven't, so you didn't.

BTW, welcome.

Sinious
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's what you want us to believe.

WTF? Do you have mental problems or something? Sidious was my favorite character ever. Not just in Star Wars. I wasn't even gonna go see the ROTS if it wasn't for him. Im not gonna try to make you believe in me lmao. Think what you want to think but it is possible to appreciate both characters despite what you and Tempest believe.





I mean even a debate about Palpatine's power seems to make you upset.



Thanks, though I've been here for more than a couple of months.

The_Tempest
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5007386880/h82770B65/

Eminence
You don't know the caliber of fan you're up against, friend.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Sinious
WTF? Do you have mental problems or something? Sidious was my favorite character ever. Not just in Star Wars. I wasn't even gonna go see the ROTS if it wasn't for him. Im not gonna try to make you believe in me lmao.


laughing out loud


I think you're the one with mental problems.

Sinious
Originally posted by Eminence
You don't know the caliber of fan you're up against, friend.

lol this thread wasn't even a Vitiate vs Sidious one. I just had to compare Vitiate to Sidious a little to analyze his powers for obvious reasons.

I guess it was inevitable that it would come to this though.

Sidious fanboys, I still believe that in an all out combat, Sidious would likely take Vitiate down(mostly because of saber feats)
This isn't about Sidious, it is about Vitiate. Don't get offended now.

psmith81992
Originally posted by Eminence
You don't know the caliber of fan you're up against, friend.

thumb up

DarthAnt66
Proof? HK and GOTO claim Revan orchestrated the entire thing.

Sinious
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Proof? HK and GOTO claim Revan orchestrated the entire thing.

Isn't Malachor V a result of the republic-mandalorian war which started after Vitiate made the Mandalorians attack the republic?

DarthAnt66
Yes, but he never personally orchestrated the Battle of Malachor V to my knowledge. erm

Sinious
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes, but he never personally orchestrated the Battle of Malachor V to my knowledge. erm


No of course not. Vitiate lost his control over Revan and Malak after he sent them to known space.

It is an interesting detail though cause it shows that Vitiate triggered the conflicts that started the famous KOTOR era.

DarthAnt66
Yet ultimately, he failed to have any control over the war.
In fact, if Darth Revan had not been captured, Vitiate would have been ****ed.
The combined might of Revan's infinite fleet and the Republic armada would crush Vitiate's Empire.
Hell, according to Scourge, the Republic alone would beat Vitiate 300 years before TOR.

Sinious
True. Vitiate probably thought Revan would harm the galaxy and the republic and loose/die after. It would've have been the case if Bastila hadn't saved and redeemed him.

S_W_LeGenD

Sinious
thumb up

Excellent post.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Sinious
thumb up

Excellent post.

Seconded.

The_Tempest
High praise from you, Moose. So, despite the fact that LeGenD is on ignore, I opened that post and read it.

It sucked balls, frankly. I can only conclude you're trolling these guys with your endorsement.

FreshestSlice
I can't find much wrong with it except for the fact that the Sacking of Coruscant and the Great Galactic War somehow lead to the "utter destruction of the Jedi Order." despite the fact that it wasn't utterly destroyed.


As to the whole Chosen One thing, I think I agree depending on what you actually mean, I think there's a difference between what Mortis has for a Chosen One, someone like Anakin whose supposed to keep the Force literally in check, and someone like pretty much every other powerhouse who's supposed to keep the galaxy in check, and thus bring balance, instead of restraining the Force itself. Mostly because all the prophecy says in a nutshell is, "When times are tough, someone will make it better, and everything will go back to normal." All of that destroy the Sith stuff is added propaganda.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I can't find much wrong with it except for the fact that the Sacking of Coruscant and the Great Galactic War somehow lead to the "utter destruction of the Jedi Order." despite the fact that it wasn't utterly destroyed.

This is part of the TOR camp's attempts to aggrandize Vitiate's accomplishments by very subtly implying that the carnage wrought by Vitiate's machinations is comparable to the Emperor's Order 66. When in reality, as you point out, it's not even close.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
As to the whole Chosen One thing, I think I agree depending on what you actually mean, I think there's a difference between what Mortis has for a Chosen One, someone like Anakin whose supposed to keep the Force literally in check, and someone like pretty much every other powerhouse who's supposed to keep the galaxy in check, and thus bring balance, instead of restraining the Force itself. Mostly because all the prophecy says in a nutshell is, "When times are tough, someone will make it better, and everything will go back to normal." All of that destroy the Sith stuff is added propaganda.

Another attempt by the TOR camp to blow shiz entirely out of proportion. The Hero of Tython et al. are, as you point out, really no different from the likes of Luke Skywalker: a heroic figure introduced in a time of great peril to combat the forces of darkness.

Anakin Skywalker is another matter entirely. He is a cosmic Messiah figure of divine origin and prophesy. Tython and Revan are pedestrian in comparison and far less special.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
High praise from you, Moose. So, despite the fact that LeGenD is on ignore, I opened that post and read it.

It sucked balls, frankly. I can only conclude you're trolling these guys with your endorsement.

Sorry you're mad.

Also, sorry you actually ignore people. I've never used the feature before.

http://www.thenug.com/sites/default/pub/060413/tumblr_m04aab7qJ81qzmr1q.gif

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
High praise from you, Moose. So, despite the fact that LeGenD is on ignore, I opened that post and read it.

It sucked balls, frankly. I can only conclude you're trolling these guys with your endorsement.

This is so sad

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sorry you're mad.

Also, sorry you actually ignore people. I've never used the feature before.

http://www.thenug.com/sites/default/pub/060413/tumblr_m04aab7qJ81qzmr1q.gif

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Super-mad.gif

This was me when I read it. (Even put in the nose-ring for authenticity!)

Defend your false emperor, worm.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The_Tempest


Another attempt by the TOR camp to blow shiz entirely out of proportion. The Hero of Tython et al. are, as you point out, really no different from the likes of Luke Skywalker: a heroic figure introduced in a time of great peril to combat the forces of darkness.

Anakin Skywalker is another matter entirely. He is a cosmic Messiah figure of divine origin and prophesy. Tython and Revan are pedestrian in comparison and far less special.
Which is exactly what I just said. Also, I'm not a fan of the HoT, for that matter. I've been pretty up front with being a fan of the Emperor's Wrath from the beginning.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Super-mad.gif

This was me when I read it. (Even put in the nose-ring for authenticity!)

Defend your false emperor, worm.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/don-draper-slow-clap.gif

You look hotter than I remember.

The_Tempest
You can either defend your false emperor or watch the season 4 finale of GoT. Either would please me.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Which is exactly what I just said.

I know. I wasn't arguing with you, I was expounding upon your remarks.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You can either defend your false emperor or watch the season 4 finale of GoT. Either would please me.



I know. I wasn't arguing with you, I was expounding upon your remarks.

I will 1337 hax00rz it this weekend. After I rewatch the previous three seasons.

So on second thought, maybe I'll get to it.

Also, Vitiate ruled more powerful dudes and didn' get kicked in the face, tossed over a table and chair, or benchpressed into a chasm.

He wins by default.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I will 1337 hax00rz it this weekend. After I rewatch the previous three seasons.

So on second thought, maybe I'll get to it.

Also, Vitiate ruled more powerful dudes and didn' get kicked in the face, tossed over a table and chair, or benchpressed into a chasm.

He wins by default.

He ran into a lightsaber bro and lost a fight with an astromech.

Vitiate's a loser.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by The_Tempest


I know. I wasn't arguing with you, I was expounding upon your remarks.
My bad. Your first sentence murdered the second one for me.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
He ran into a lightsaber bro and lost a fight with an astromech.

Vitiate's a loser.

Vitiate would own Yoda. Sidious ran away.

#vitiateswag

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Vitiate would own Yoda. Sidious ran away.

#vitiateswag

Sidious would own an astromech. Vitiate died.

#sidiousswagmore

Sinious
Sidious got his skin fried by his own lightning and was killed by his apprentice.

Despite his genius, he couldn't realize that torturing a sith lord's son in front of him isn't a very good idea. His death is equally stupid to Vitiate's.

The_Tempest
No shit?

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sidious would own an astromech. Vitiate died.

#sidiousswagmore

Sidious got shot in the back by Han Solo.

http://emotibot.net/pix/5025.jpg

#vitiateswagmaximumthreshold

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is part of the TOR camp's attempts to aggrandize Vitiate's accomplishments by very subtly implying that the carnage wrought by Vitiate's machinations is comparable to the Emperor's Order 66. When in reality, as you point out, it's not even close.

Meh, the Jedi Civil War was more effective than Order 66. I brought the number of Jedi down to the single digits, when Oder 66 had more Jedi escape and survive it than hookers from my basement.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, the Jedi Civil War was more effective than Order 66. I brought the number of Jedi down to the single digits, when Oder 66 had more Jedi escape and survive it than hookers from my basement.

But you own a trailer...

Nephthys
I call the pit I dug under it my basement.

Stealth Moose
I've heard of good results with lining the walls with grease.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, the Jedi Civil War was more effective than Order 66. I brought the number of Jedi down to the single digits, when Oder 66 had more Jedi escape and survive it than hookers from my basement.

Not really. Per The Essential Atlas, less than a hundred Jedi remained post-Jedi Civil War and the continued purges orchestrated by Nihilus and Sion. Two different conflicts with two different architects, to say nothing of the mass defections from the Jedi ranks. Order 66 was much more effective.

psmith81992
I forgot where it was stated but "barely 100 jedi remained" happened prior to the Jedi Purge. Furthermore, there was no real "republic" at the time. You can debate which one was more effective against the Jedi because you can make a case for either of those. In terms of overall impact, the JCW did so much more damage.

Nephthys
The Triumvirate's shadow war was a direct result of and continuation of the JCW. I counted it as the same thing. They were both a result of Vitiates masterminding of the Mando War and Revans fall. Ultimately as Beefy said, the events in the Kotor period did vastly more damage than Sidious' efforts.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Triumvirate's shadow war was a direct result of and continuation of the JCW. I counted it as the same thing. They were both a result of Vitiates masterminding of the Mando War and Revans fall.

thumb up

Sinious
I thought what Sion said was accurate. (Except for the Exile and Dantooine)

Nephthys
Dang, Nihilus owned those guys.

The_Tempest
The Atlas indicates that "less than a hundred" Jedi remained post-KotOR II. I'll provide you with a scan soon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Triumvirate's shadow war was a direct result of and continuation of the JCW. I counted it as the same thing. They were both a result of Vitiates masterminding of the Mando War and Revans fall. Ultimately as Beefy said, the events in the Kotor period did vastly more damage than Sidious' efforts.

That's exceptionally weak, even for you.

Vitiate's only contribution to the Jedi Civil War was completing the corruption of Revan and Malak. Beyond that, he had no direct hand at all in it. Revan subverted his influence and etched out his own agenda. Vitiate had even less to do with the post-Revan Jedi purge and was totally unaffiliated with the triumvirate.

Might as well give Palpatine credit for the Yuuzhan Vong war.

Sinious
@ Neph Yeah its pretty insane. Especially when Sion falls back down for the second time after he resurrects himself. big grin

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Atlas indicates that "less than a hundred" Jedi remained post-KotOR II. I'll provide you with a scan soon.



That's exceptionally weak, even for you.

Vitiate's only contribution to the Jedi Civil War was completing the corruption of Revan and Malak. Beyond that, he had no direct hand at all in it. Revan subverted his influence and etched out his own agenda. Vitiate had even less to do with the post-Revan Jedi purge and was totally unaffiliated with the triumvirate.

Might as well give Palpatine credit for the Yuuzhan Vong war.

The fact that Kreia knows about the hidden sith empire is a mystery for me on this subject.

FreshestSlice
Keep in mind Kreia also says that Revan never met the true Sith Empire.

Or we could always go with the "Kreia is the Emperor's former lover" theory.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's exceptionally weak, even for you.

Vitiate's only contribution to the Jedi Civil War was completing the corruption of Revan and Malak. Beyond that, he had no direct hand at all in it. Revan subverted his influence and etched out his own agenda. Vitiate had even less to do with the post-Revan Jedi purge and was totally unaffiliated with the triumvirate.

Might as well give Palpatine credit for the Yuuzhan Vong war.

It's undeniable that Vitiate masterminded the Mando Wars and the Jedi Civil War, of which the Triumvirate's purge was merely a continuation. Ultimately you're correct that Vitiate really did little more than turn Mandalore the Ultimate and Revan against the Republic and sit back while they worked, that that doesn't mean that all those events weren't caused by his machinations.

psmith81992
Yea I would like a scan because I remember the quote happening prior to the Jedi Purge.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dang, Nihilus owned those guys.

Wow, holy crap.

The_Tempest
http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc520/G1d3on91/effectivenessofjedipurge_zps0d0b2cab.png

*My apologies, not post KotOR II but post-Katarr.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's undeniable that Vitiate masterminded the Mando Wars and the Jedi Civil War, of which the Triumvirate's purge was merely a continuation.

Ultimately you're correct that Vitiate really did little more than turn Mandalore the Ultimate and Revan against the Republic and sit back while they worked, that that doesn't mean that all those events weren't caused by his machinations.

Vitiate initiated the Mandalorian Wars, he did not manage them. His involvement with the Jedi Civil War is tenuous at best; it was a product of Revan and Malak's dark ambitions. The subsequent purges by the triumvirate have nothing to do with Vitiate beyond a ripple effect. Hell, by that reckoning, you could give Marka Ragnos credit for all of Vitiate's efforts since he anointed Vitiate a Sith Lord to begin with. Or Vitiate's dad for spawning him. Or the midwife who delivered him.

Comparing that to Palpatine's Clone Wars or Order 66 isn't really tenable.

FreshestSlice
Ajunta Pall caused everything because he initiated the Order of the Sith, you mean.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Ajunta Pall caused everything because he initiated the Order of the Sith, you mean.

No, Ajunta Pall's dad did.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate initiated the Mandalorian Wars, he did not manage them. His involvement with the Jedi Civil War is tenuous at best; it was a product of Revan and Malak's dark ambitions. The subsequent purges by the triumvirate have nothing to do with Vitiate beyond a ripple effect. Hell, by that reckoning, you could give Marka Ragnos credit for all of Vitiate's efforts since he anointed Vitiate a Sith Lord to begin with. Or Vitiate's dad for spawning him. Or the midwife who delivered him.

Comparing that to Palpatine's Clone Wars or Order 66 isn't really tenable.

Just like Littlefinger caused the War of the 5 Kings but didn't fight it himself, so too did Vitiate cause all those events to occur through his manipulation of the characters, hence why he is the mastermind behind them. Vitiate may not have actively managed them, but he was the sole root cause of the Mando Wars and the JCW. It's irrelevant if he actively engaged in either, both were started by him for his purposes and succeeded in achieving them.

Your ripple effect argument is frankly idiotic, since it ignores intent. Ragnos and Vitiates dad didn't intend for Vitiates actions to occur and had no idea they would. Vitiate however purposefully started the Mando and Jedi Civil Wars with the goal of weakening the Republic and Jedi and was wildly successful in that task. Just like Palpatine he had a plan and carried it out through manipulation and corruption.

Stealth Moose
This is kind of a red herring. Vitiate liberally kicked ass against enemies and allies alike, created shittons more Dark Side nexuses, kept far more powerful apprentices firmly under heel, conquered a planet at thirteen, waged an open war against the Republic and Jedi Order which lead to the Sack of Coruscant and a forced peace treaty which favors the Sith, kept the Dread Masters around as pals, and treated Revan and co. like feebs.

Sidious had to backstab the entire Order because he very nearly lost in solo combat with Mace or Yoda. He could not openly challenge the Jedi Order, because he was weaker and could not grow/maintain an Empire. Vitiate took the refugees from the Great Hyperspace War and made them into a force that nearly broke the Republic.

No comparison.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like Littlefinger caused the War of the 5 Kings but didn't fight it himself, so too did Vitiate cause all those events to occur through his manipulation of the characters, hence why he is the mastermind behind them. Vitiate may not have actively managed them, but he was the sole root cause of the Mando Wars and the JCW. It's irrelevant if he actively engaged in either, both were started by him for his purposes and succeeded in achieving them.

Your ripple effect argument is frankly idiotic, since it ignores intent. Ragnos and Vitiates dad didn't intend for Vitiates actions to occur and had no idea they would. Vitiate however purposefully started the Mando and Jedi Civil Wars with the goal of weakening the Republic and Jedi and was wildly successful in that task.
Vitiate intended for Revan to remake the Republic into a powerhouse? Because that's what Revan was doing. I'm pretty sure Vitiate didn't intend for Kreia to nuke the Force; that is what she was doing. Such things are side effects, which are not proof of causation. And the first Jedi Purge, didn't even kill as many Jedi as you're arguing, because a lot of them joined the other side from the outset. Revan was not trying to kill Jedi from the start. One could say Traya did, but by that point, most of them were already following her.

I personally think Vitiate's pretty powerful, but there's almost no chance that he planned for all the following events when Revan met him. Unless you also find someway to convince me that he planned for Revan to try to kill him and then hold him in check for 300 years. I fail to see how Tempest comparison is any different from yours, because all Vitiate really wanted was the Star Forge and the Foundry, once the Mandalorian Wars had concluded. The purging was irrelevant, because he could have easily done that himself. Dude is planning to consume the entire galaxy; he needs all of the death to happen at once, and certainly not only that of the Jedi.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like Littlefinger caused the War of the 5 Kings but didn't fight it himself, so too did Vitiate cause all those events to occur through his manipulation of the characters, hence why he is the mastermind behind them. Vitiate may not have actively managed them, but he was the sole root cause of the Mando Wars and the JCW. It's irrelevant if he actively engaged in either, both were started by him for his purposes and succeeded in achieving them.

Except the only conflict of the three (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, and the subsequent purges) for which Vitiate is directly responsible is the Mandalorian War. The Jedi Civil War was initiated and waged by Revan and Malak, who did so under their own ambitions. The purges conducted by Nihilus and Sion have nothing at all to do with Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your ripple effect argument is frankly idiotic, since it ignores intent. Ragnos and Vitiates dad didn't intend for Vitiates actions to occur and had no idea they would. Vitiate however purposefully started the Mando and Jedi Civil Wars with the goal of weakening the Republic and Jedi and was wildly successful in that task. Just like Palpatine he had a plan and carried it out through manipulation and corruption.

FreshestSlice already addressed this. Vitiate didn't start the Jedi Civil War and had nothing to do with its events.



This conveniently ignores the fact that Vitiate was psychically manipulated by Revan for three centuries and was the target of multiple conspiracies, one of which ultimately cost him his life (Scourge).



Since Sidious's plan was designed and set into motion long before he crossed swords with Yoda and Mace, I have to assume you're trolling.



Is this also trolling or are you offering this as a legitimate contention?

DarthAnt66
thumb up
It is rather pathetic you give Vitiate the "thumbs up" Neph, rather then Revan. Revan and Malak openly defied Vitiate shortly after his mind-domination and began their own Empire. If anything, Vitiate nearly failed completely. The Empire's purpose would have been to unite the Republic and their own Empire against Vitiate's, and he would have been utterly crushed. Ultimately, Bastila Shan was the only thing that saved Vitiate from not having his shit stomped in him.

"It was ironic that Canderous was sharing all this with the architect of the Mandalorians' greatest defeat."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Vitiate's "legendary" Mandalorian Wars only resulted in the Mandalorian's getting kicked in the ass by Revan. The only accomplishment for Vitiate that came out of the war was Revan's fall to the Dark Side, which was incredibly short lived at best, for shortly afterwards he created a rival Empire. Hardly something to worship Vitiate about. Malachor V shouldn't also be worshiped over as a Vitiate accomplishment...according to HK-47 and GOTO, it was completely of Revan's design. And then, to think the Dark Wars has anything related to Vitiate is silly. In it had a character who would have ate Dromaund Kaas itself. erm

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except the only conflict of the three (Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, and the subsequent purges) for which Vitiate is directly responsible is the Mandalorian War. The Jedi Civil War was initiated and waged by Revan and Malak, who did so under their own ambitions. The purges conducted by Nihilus and Sion have nothing at all to do with Vitiate.



FreshestSlice already addressed this. Vitiate didn't start the Jedi Civil War and had nothing to do with its events.



This conveniently ignores the fact that Vitiate was psychically manipulated by Revan for three centuries and was the target of multiple conspiracies, one of which ultimately cost him his life (Scourge).



Since Sidious's plan was designed and set into motion long before he crossed swords with Yoda and Mace, I have to assume you're trolling.



Is this also trolling or are you offering this as a legitimate contention?

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Problem-Troll-GIF.gif

The_Tempest
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
thumb up
It is rather pathetic you give Vitiate the "thumbs up" Neph, rather then Revan. Revan and Malak openly defied Vitiate shortly after his mind-domination and began their own Empire. If anything, Vitiate nearly failed completely. The Empire's purpose would have been to unite the Republic and their own Empire against Vitiate's, and he would have been utterly crushed. Ultimately, Bastila Shan was the only thing that saved Vitiate from not having his shit stomped in him.

"It was ironic that Canderous was sharing all this with the architect of the Mandalorians' greatest defeat."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Vitiate's "legendary" Mandalorian Wars only resulted in the Mandalorian's getting kicked in the ass by Revan. The only accomplishment for Vitiate that came out of the war was Revan's fall to the Dark Side, which was incredibly short lived at best, for shortly afterwards he created a rival Empire. Hardly something to worship Vitiate about. Malachor V shouldn't also be worshiped over as a Vitiate accomplishment...according to HK-47 and GOTO, it was completely of Revan's design. And then, to think the Dark Wars has anything related to Vitiate is silly. In it had a character who would have ate Dromaund Kaas itself. erm

Neph says he's not, but he's a Vitiate fanboy via contagion. He's desperate for Vitiate to triumph over Sidious.

DarthAnt66
http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/1749461263.gif

Emperordmb
Watching people try to argue that Sidious is immensely above Vitaite, or that Vitiate is immensely above Sidious makes me cringe and facepalm.

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