Why I think Vitiate may be the most powerful Sith ever
Well, SW Legend has a nice respect thread for Vitiate but I want to point out some of the important details of Vitiate's life that may make things more clear and less speculative when we debate his powers.
Aside from Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever quote and loosing to HoT in such a shameful way, there is a couple of things about Vitiate that makes his image(at least) look superior and more evil than any other Sith.
This isn't just about Vitiate vs Sidious but I will compare them often as Sidious has the throne that Vitiate claims.
First of all, his impressiveness had begun when he was born. Unlike any other Sith, his darkness was so clear that even his non-force user parents were able to see that there was something odd about him the moment he was born.
When Plagueis first met Palpatine, he didn't even suspect anything related to the force about Palpatine and he was a very powerful and wise sith lord. It took him 2-3 meetings with Palpatine to suspect and a couple more to finally realize that Sidious was a force potential. Vitiate's non force-sensitive father figured it out when Tenebrae was only six years old.
Vitiate was born with eyes as black as the void and even as a baby he never cried. He did not care about his family and felt no relativity to anything around him including his family. Palpatine had a normal childhood and he was kind of a young boy with daddy issues.
With no knowledge of the force or a master to train him, he was able to break his father's neck with TK and after he tortured his mother with his force powers. This too happened when he was only 6 years old. After finally killing his mother he had enough power to torture the other villagers he was neighbor to. He killed/stomped a Sith Lord at the age of 10.
Vitiate's early life is very important to understand his true power. Most of the Vitiate haters claim that Vitiate's powers are coming from his unnatural rituals but what he did till the age of 10 is enough to prove that he was very powerful by nature.
He had no power struggles or outer powers to distract him for more than 80 years which let him study the dark side of the force with his natural wisdom and talent of sorcery.
As the famous ritual he performed in Natemha was a success, he reached immortality like no other sith(including Plagueis and Sidious).
After consuming the powers of 8000 sith and an entire planet, he multiplied(at least tripled) his power which was already A LOT.
After this, we only know that he reconstructed the sith confederation and made it stronger than it ever was in the unknown regions of the galaxy. He became the Emperor of the Sith which is a very important detail. Not including the fake/false Emperor's in the EU, there are only 2 Sith that has gained the title Emperor. However, Sidious' title does not come from his high position in the sith hierarchy but his political reorganization of the republic. He is the Emperor of the senate and the commoners where Vitiate was of thousands of sith and his will was absolute. During his rule for 1300 years, he suppressed thousands of sith including dozens of extremely powerful Darths. Some of those darths would easily become a dark lord of their time if they were born in another era.
He made the Dread Masters obey him which is one of the most impressive feats that any jedi/sith has ever shown. He is the only sith that was almost worshipped like a god by so many force users.
He had no masters to train him yet only 80 years of his life as a mortal man was enough to achieve one of the most impressive force rituals ever made. Imagine how much he grew in power after the ritual and he spent not 80 but 1300 years this time to study the force with an even more wisdom and power.
A great Sith Lord like Scourge was trembling when he was in the presence of the Emperor. No such feats are shown for Sidious while those who were serving the Emperor had similar feats. Darth Jadus physically wounded those around him.
Vitiate's unseen effect on KOTOR era is also immense.
The Emperor tricked the Mandalorians to attack the republic to test its strength and cause some needed trouble in the known galaxy.
The battle on Malachor V was caused by his manipulations which created so many great characters like Darth Traya, the Exile, Darth Nihilus etc...
The assumption of Revan being weak before KOTOR era is a misconception. Pre-KOTOR Revan was the mighty champion of the republic, yet he was still dominated without a fight by Vitiate like a weakling when he faced the Emperor with his companion(Malak).
When the sith finally returned to known galaxy, they conquered half of of it. Many people compare Vitiate's empire to Sidious' empire and say that Sidious had a much bigger one. While this being true, Vitiate united the sith wandering around the galaxy and created a mighty SITH Empire where Sidious simply took over a republic that already had control of most of the galaxy. So this comparison doesn't make sense.
Palpatine was a very powerful sith and had great concentration on the concept of power and understanding of the force. Yet his focus wasn't pure with just these things as he pursued a political career and was able to remain a regular human life in Coruscant. His path to glory was much more humble and he had the benefit of taking over a plan designed 1000 years before he was born.
Vitiate had no emotions nor interests for human matters. He was so superior to other sith that even the concerns of most powerful Sith(like Bane, Exar Kun, Malgus...) would be no interest to him. He didn't respect anyone and never called anyone master. He cared nothing for the jedi or the sith yet he was able to dominate/manipulate them both. He took only the force itself as his enemy and wanted to consume the galaxy itself and had achieved some progress with his goals. Palpatine had a similar vision of galaxy annihilation yet he never showed anything to prove that he was capable of it. Vitiate's ritual at least proved that he had a chance to consume the galaxy into his own individualism.
Also while Palpatine has many wise quotes, he speaks with a more common consciousness level where every time Vitiate opens his mouth, a godlike oratory comes out.
As for my anti-thesis; even though Vitiate was weakened when he was defeated to HoT in his own chambers, it is still a big flaw in his story and cannot be ignored. His odd unfamiliarity with a lightsaber(possibly caused by the fact that he never needed one) and terrible mistake right before falling gives the signals of his lack of combat skills even though he is a great tactician. He may be a better combatant than most jedi/sith but he would be vulnerable if he was to fights top tier warriors like Luke, Yoda or Palpatine.
My conclusion on the matter of Vitiate vs Sidious(which also answers who the most powerful Sith that ever lived is) goes like this:
The first Emperor's story depicts a more darker, evil and wiser sith lord. Their in-combat force skills don't seem to surpress the other so I see them as equals on that matter. However, Vitiate's feats unrelated to combat are more impressive and Palpatine has better saber skills for sure.
So I believe that if they lived in the same era with a lot of other sith around, Vitaite would gain more support and fascination but if we are to compare them in a combat, Vitiate's vulnerability in saber fights would make Sidious the victor.
So yes, I accept that in a 1on1 combat, Sidious would most likely defeat Vitiate!
From my own point of view, Vitiate is the most inhuman, emotionless and evil character in the entire EU. His vision of power is unlike any other ambitious character and he dominated thousands of sith for centuries. I don't think any other sith would be able to remain in power in his empire for that long.
Logically speaking, I'd say that Vitiate is comfortably the most powerful Sith ever. He was an unprecedented prodigy and force wielder who then vastly increased his power by absorbed an ungodly amount of energy and is also constantly growing more powerful plus possesses what should be an incomparable grasp of the Force. Logically he should be far above anyone barring Luke.
The actual reality though is that that assertion isn't supported.
Why barring Luke then? Im not saying Vitiate is > or = Luke but what exactly has Luke achieved that it would seem impossible for Vitiate?
An entire Dark Council vs Luke would end up with Luke dead. Same could be said for Abeloth even. And HoT would be destroyed by a dark council yet he managed to kill Vitiate. My point is, these things can change and a single performance in one combat shouldn't decide the characters position in the power hierarchy.
Luke is much more of a well-rounded character, imo. I'm not going to say Vitiate doesn't have any combat feats (he must have some combat ability in that Sith Empire), but Luke certainly has more to his name. Add to that Luke's power in the Force and I think that's what puts him above Vitiate. Then again, I'm of the mindset that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
The same thing applies with Luke I think. Vitiate may have more knowledge/power of the force but would fall because he hasn't the instinct and skill to thrive in a 1on1 combat so when Luke manages to come close to him, he would be able to slay him with his saber.
Good point, but does Vitiate actually have more power in the Force than Luke? I know Vitiate is a Force Titan, but so is Sidious, and Luke has surpassed him.
Here I find a bit inaccuracy. Vitiate haters don't accept Vitiate's power because they find the character and his story weak. I feel the same way about luke as he is more like an immature marvel superhero than a grand master of the jedi yet that doesn't give me the right to ignore his power. What they have achieved and their backstories should determine this. Luke was no prodigy of the force. He wasn't immortal. He couldn't do anything with the force without a master where Vitiate never had a master and already knew how to use the force by himself at the age of 6. Through training and high quantity of midi-chlorians, he may have gained a lot of power yet when it comes to pure force fight, I can see Vitiate defeating Luke. I don't see any/jedi being able to absorb/reflect/counter attack his force attacks with force attacks tbh. Only Luke and Sidious would have a chance.
Again though, when sabers are involved everything changes.
You two claim not to have a particular investment in this character, but remarks like that strongly suggest otherwise.
This is fairly directly addressed in Darth Plagueis. Aside from vague misgivings, Plagueis doesn't suspect Palpatine's natural Force potential until he tries and fails to read his mind. His initial theory is that Palpatine, like Plagueis himself, learned to conceal his Force potential at a young age. Later on, when Palpatine loses his temper and reacts in the Force, Plagueis is amazed at the raw power being broadcast and concludes that the Force was so strong in Palpatine that it had concealed itself within him.
But beyond that, the person imbued with the strongest connection to the Force in the entire mythology is Anakin Skywalker. Like Palpatine, he didn't broadcast his strength in the Force to all in his presence beyond inspiring vague suspicions in Qui-Gon Jinn.
So rather than Vitiate simply being more powerful, it could very well be argued that characters like Palpatine and Anakin possess a much stronger, more advanced connection to the Force.
But this is where you lose me entirely. I'm at least willing to entertain the idea that Vitiate is Palpatine's equal or superior if only for the fact that he has the feats and accolades to compete with Darth Sidious as a Force user and scholar. (Though, in the end, myself and most others would conclude Sidious still enjoys an advantage.)
In the political realm, however, Vitiate's accomplishments don't remotely compare to Palpatine's. Palpatine's machinations with the Republic beginning in The Phantom Menace and concluding with Revenge of The Sith are simply mind boggling in scope and scale. And as far as Bane's millennium long plan is concerned, there is no evidence that Sidious was following a blueprint designed by his predecessors and, in fact, there exists evidence to the contrary. Palpatine crafted the working plan and did almost all the legwork (confirmed by Darth Maul: Lockdown, wherein Plagueis is confirmed to have only been apprised of the broad maneuvers of Palpatine's plot). He accomplished more in two decades than Vitiate did in a millennium.
When it comes to power, I freely admit that the two are close. When it comes to accomplishments, there are none that compare to Sidious.
I'd just love to rub it in your faces. It isn't that I'm invested in the guy, I'd just like to stick it to the "Vitiate loses cuz he's slow and a feeb up close" guys.
How early a character realizes force sensitivity is irrelevant.
First of all Vitiate was born on a planet corrupted by darkside. It is obvious that it would corrupt him at much earlier age and make him realize power much earlier.
Also, Vitiate was devilish from childhood, his desire to control others is another factor contributing to his early power realization.
Palatine in childhood wasn't evil, he gradually turned into one with slight help of Plagueis.
I really want to see him return asap. So many things needs to be cleared out. At least some more information about his backstory would be nice. He obviously didn't just sit in his throne room for 1300 years so a lot of good stories about him can be written in that era.
I never take the Vitiate sucks with the saber thing seriously. I just use it to calm some of the movie fans.
That is true but still it doesn't even come close to what Vitiate achieved with the force as a kid. How old was Palpatine when he killed his father. Should be 15-20 something. Do you think he could turn a sith lord mad and then kill him? An average sith lord of TOR era would destroy 10 years old Palpatine.
I think you didn't get my point. Palpatine's political achievements are exactly what makes him look less evil. Vitiate was superior to Palpatine's methodology and already had an empire full of people that worshipped him. He is completely inhuman and lacks empathy for every living thing. Being sent into the republic as a spy politician would be an insult to him.
It was a Sith planet ruled by Sith. How would it not be corrupted? Child was exposed to dark aura even before being born by mere fact that his father was a Sith Lord.
Proves what point? Sidious became as pure evil as it gets, so doesn't matter what he was like in childhood.
Jun 19th, 2014 01:28 AM
