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Who the **** wins?

Is Vitiate amped and prepped?

Vitiate does to him what he did to Revan.

Answer the question Emperor

Why no Carthage, Vitiate is not amped or prepped.

Vader SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Care to explain why you think it would be a "SLAUGHTERHOUSE" for Vader?

Originally posted by carthage
Vader SLAUGHTERHOUSE

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate does to him what he did to Revan.

Lol nonsense.

Vitiate has no feats suggesting he can dominate his mind unamped/without prep other than an off panel feat where he kills his featless father.

Vader is much faster than Revan, and superior to Revan in every aspect as a character. He would kill Vitiate before he can react or ragdoll him with his beastly TK.

Vitiate is outmatched. Call me when Vitiate can bring down a cathedral, fight faster than thought, crush a tie fighter mid flight, rip out a massive tree with TK, and fight faster than force sensitives can react. Vitiate gets ragdolled

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate does to him what he did to Revan.


No.

Also, change your avatar.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No.

Also, change your avatar.

I would be amused by your rage if I was trolling but you weren't even born when I was watching the Emperor's greatness.

So be silent, little one.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate does to him what he did to Revan.
Worse actually

Emperor would first rip the cybernetics apart and then reduce the flesh inside to ash with his powers.

Originally posted by Sinious
I would be amused by your rage if I was trolling but you weren't even born when I was watching the Emperor's greatness.

So be silent, little one.

I'm not trolling Vitiate just has nothing on Vader in terms of feats. Without prep or a nexus to draw on he has no showings to suggest he can take Darth ****ing Vader. Vitiate moves at Revan's speed which Vader is superior to, Vitiate lacks TK feats off nexus, lacks skill feats, and or anything to suggest he can do anything other than hug Vader's saber and die.

Originally posted by Sinious
I would be amused by your rage if I was trolling but you weren't even born when I was watching the Emperor's greatness.

So be silent, little one.

@carthage

Seriously stop.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm not trolling Vitiate just has nothing on Vader in terms of feats. Without prep or a nexus to draw on he has no showings to suggest he can take Darth ****ing Vader. Vitiate moves at Revan's speed which Vader is superior to, Vitiate lacks TK feats off nexus, lacks skill feats, and or anything to suggest he can do anything other than hug Vader's saber and die.

What? I wasn't talking to you...

Ah woops, thought you were. My apologies

Vader is not ragdolling Vitiate.

Off nexus he has no force defense feats to support your statement, or at the very least that Vitiate isn't sent flying.

Originally posted by carthage
Ah woops, thought you were. My apologies

Apology accepted. And you're not the only little one here

As for your prior post:

Vader isnt stronger than Revan. They are pretty close tbh and Vitiate's one-shoting the jedi strike team is off nexus. Vader would be killed against a team like that.

Vader has no defense against Vitiate's FLS.

P.S I don't take Vader being %80 of Sidious seriously. It is utter BS.

Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate does to him what he did to Revan.

Except worse.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Worse actually

Emperor would first rip the cybernetics apart and then reduce the flesh inside to ash with his powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except worse.

True. The lightning factor by itself allows Vitiate to easily destroy him.

Uh yeah he is.

Revan hasn't fought invisibly fast, never overwhelmed a force sensitive before they could react, never deflected turret fire, never generated after images or, moved his saber faster than thought. He is slower by a significant margin, and that doesn't even address the disparity between their TK feats

Vader knows tutaminus and can absorb Vitiate's lightning that way or simply use his saber. Off nexus Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest otherwise

P.S I don't care about what you believe.

Originally posted by carthage
Ah woops, thought you were. My apologies


You're my son, Cart. Don't apologize.

Originally posted by carthage
Uh yeah he is.

Revan hasn't fought invisibly fast, never overwhelmed a force sensitive before they could react, never deflected turret fire, never generated after images or, moved his saber faster than thought. He is slower by a significant margin, and that doesn't even address the disparity between their TK feats

Vader knows tutaminus and can absorb Vitiate's lightning that way or simply use his saber. Off nexus Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest otherwise

P.S I don't care about what you believe.

You justify your radical biased opinions with your strict obsession for feats which means nothing. Vitiate's one-shoting the team of the greatest jedi of that era is off nexus. But hey, I'm not gonna get into this again. I leave you to the hands of SW_Legend.

I don't have the patience to go through this again.

Originally posted by Sinious
True. The lightning factor by itself allows Vitiate to easily destroy him.


Get off Vitiate's dick.

P.S I agree that Vader is very powerful but still he doesn't come near to %80 of Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're my son, Cart. Don't apologize.


Now this is some revelation....

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Get off Vitiate's dick.

How will Vader deal with Vitiate's lightning? It's a reasonable conclusion that he won't.

And its a reasonable conclusion that its not as powerful as it is sans a nexus. All of the mooks (and Braga) did't know Tutaminus which Vader does, and he can simply absorb it with a saber.

Originally posted by carthage
And its a reasonable conclusion that its not as powerful as it is sans a nexus. All of the mooks (and Braga) did't know Tutaminus which Vader does, and he can simply absorb it with a saber.
All the mooks?

Also, every Force-user learns Tutaminis.

You really don't have a clue about ground realities of the lore.

Originally posted by Sinious
You justify your radical biased opinions with your strict obsession for feats which means nothing. Vitiate's one-shoting the team of the greatest jedi of that era is off nexus. But hey, I'm not gonna get into this again. I leave you to the hands of SW_Legend.

I don't have the patience to go through this again.

It was done in orbit of Dromund Kaas a nexus, and who cares about you hyping that feat. Nothing about the properties of Vitiate's lightning make it to where it can't be absorbed by a saber or by Vader's tutaminus. Revan is a weaker character than Vader, so using him as an example will not suffice. I don't care if you don't want to get into an argument, as usual you have no recourse other than to delve into appeals to ignorance.

SW legend is on my ignore list, and I ignore his posts for the most part.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How will Vader deal with Vitiate's lightning? It's a reasonable conclusion that he won't.


Vader's strength should be capable of pushing through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and even if some bolts manage to pass his saber defense, it's not going to be enough to take Vader out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's strength should be capable of pushing through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and even if some bolts manage to pass his saber defense, it's not going to be enough to take Vader out.
An entire Jedi Strike Team attempted to contain Emperor's lightning with use of lightsabers, didn't work.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's strength should be capable of pushing through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and even if some bolts manage to pass his saber defense, it's not going to be enough to take Vader out.

Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that. His lightsaber defense would be overwhelmed and he'd be destroyed. Revan casually absorbed lightning powerful enough utterly disintegrate Nyriss through her shields but when faced with Vitiates lightning his defense was overwhelmed and he was engulfed in lightning. Vader doesn't have anything even close to Revan's feats against lightning, so he'd be taken out in a similar manner. You might as well argue Vader could do the same to Sidious.

Of course, Vitiate would just telepathically dominate him instead, but the lightning argument also leads to Vaders defeat so whatever.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Of course, Vitiate would just telepathically dominate him instead, but the lightning argument also leads to Vaders defeat so whatever.


Yep, Vader is a troubled man. Shouldn't be very hard to dominate his mind but like you have also said, lightning factor is enough.

How is that BS?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that. His lightsaber defense would be overwhelmed and he'd be destroyed. Revan casually absorbed lightning powerful enough utterly disintegrate Nyriss through her shields but when faced with Vitiates lightning his defense was overwhelmed and he was engulfed in lightning. Vader doesn't have anything even close to Revan's feats against lightning, so he'd be taken out in a similar manner. You might as well argue Vader could do the same to Sidious.

Of course, Vitiate would just telepathically dominate him instead, but the lightning argument also leads to Vaders defeat so whatever.


Vader is physically superior to Revan, and he can absorb lightning onto his saber. He's done so against Dooku as Anakin. There is absolutely nothing to suggest Vitiate can overpower Vader's saber defense, given Vader's immense strength. And no, the same can't be said about Sidious, because Sidious has overwhelmed the saber defenses of physical power houses with ease.

If Vitiate goes for a TP assault, Vader could just hurl Vitiate on his ass and proceed with another attack before Vitiate could get up.

Why wouldn't the greatest Jedi in the order know Tutaminis, a skill taught to almost everyone? I agree that Vader's could possibly be better, but to say that they didn't know it...

Again Sidious you're giving credence to the idea that Vitiate can even try to attempt to prod Vader's mind and actually "dominate" him. Why would this be he case when all of his domination feats are on a nexus?

Medrias was not a nexus Carthage.

Ah, leave it to a Vitiate or Sidious topic to get the forum booming. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/1724109101.gif

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is physically superior to Revan, and he can absorb lightning onto his saber. He's done so against Dooku as Anakin. There is absolutely nothing to suggest Vitiate can overpower Vader's saber defense, given Vader's immense strength. And no, the same can't be said about Sidious, because Sidious has overwhelmed the saber defenses of physical power houses with ease.

If Vitiate goes for a TP assault, Vader could just hurl Vitiate on his ass and proceed with another attack before Vitiate could get up.

So your whole argument is that because he blocked Dooku's lightning he can do so to Vitiates? That's not a very good one in my opinion. So I'm afraid I need to restate my point, Vader has no feats to suggest he can block Vitiate's lightning. I'm not sure what Vader being stronger than Revan was supposed to prove because it certainly didn't prove that. You don't absorb lightning with your muscles. Well, you don't do so without getting the Skywalker treatment.

Lol @ Vader hurling Vitiate on his ass. Vader has no defense against Vitiate's mind like Revan did. As soon as Vitiate touches him mentally Vader will be in psychic agony. And even if not Revan couldn't make a mere Imperial Guardman budge with TK, Vader can't just push Vitiate like that directly. Vitiate's defense is too powerful.

inb4 SIDDY says that Dooku's lightning=Vitiate's to spite Neph.

Yeah, I'm walking into that one.

Originally posted by carthage
Again Sidious you're giving credence to the idea that Vitiate can even try to attempt to prod Vader's mind and actually "dominate" him. Why would this be he case when all of his domination feats are on a nexus?


Vitiate can try, but I didn't say it would be successful. Vader was the apprentice of one of the most powerful telepaths in history, and considering Vader tried to shield his thoughts from Sidious at all times, logically shielding himself from mental intrusion is something Vader would know a lot about. IIRC, even Mara was capable of mentally defending herself from Jorus (who enslaved the minds of entire armies) on account of Palpatine's training. A mere hands training is far more limited than an actual apprentice.

Vader could attack with TK before Vitiate would be able to break down his mental barriers.


Originally posted by Nephthys
So your whole argument is that because he blocked Dooku's lightning he can do so to Vitiates?


You said Vader has no feats with regards to dealing with lightning with his saber, which is false, considering he's defended against Dooku's.


Originally posted by Nephthys
So I'm afraid I need to restate my point, Vader has no feats to suggest he can block Vitiate's lightning.


Vitiate has no feats with lightning to indicate he could overpower the saber defense of someone as strong as Vader.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure what Vader being stronger than Revan was supposed to prove because it certainly didn't prove that. You don't absorb lightning with your muscles. Well, you don't do so without getting the Skywalker treatment.


Being strong has a lot to do with it. A Kenobi level force user can use the force to draw lightning onto their saber, so it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to know how to defend against lightning via saber. The rest comes down to physical strength and/or how strong the lightning is in order to continue containing it with a saber. Vader has strength feats to suggest he could push through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, whereas Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest he could overpower an individual as strong as Vader.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ Vader hurling Vitiate on his ass. Vader has no defense against Vitiate's mind like Revan did. As soon as Vitiate touches him mentally Vader will be in psychic agony. And even if not Revan couldn't make a mere Imperial Guardman budge with TK, Vader can't just push Vitiate like that directly. Vitiate's defense is too powerful.


Vader knows about mental shields, which is how Revan blocked Vitiate's TK attack.

Yes, if Vitiate wastes his attention on trying to TP Vader, Vader could hurl Vitiate with his superior TK in a split second.

Revan did manage to force hurl Vitiate when the latter tried to TP him, despite being on a DS nexus. Vader has superior TK feats to Vitiate, so I'm not seeing why he couldn't use it to his advantage.

Vitiate roflstomps. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Vitiate roflstomps. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

Yes, it takes an extremely biased mind to doubt this.

Vitiate: power.
Vader: combat.

Vader wins in a fight 8 times out of 10, Vitiate is however more powerful over all. Hell the novel states outright that Vitiate is not a combatant by any means, he is a scholar through and through.

Vader on the other hand is absolutely centered on combat, Sidious even states that in an outright 1 vs 1 Vader would be a very decent match for him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Sidious even states that in an outright 1 vs 1 Vader would be a very decent match for him.
Quote for that?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Quote for that?

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.
Sidious was always wary of his apprentices.

And it stands to question whether or not Vader reached his potential.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate: power.
Vader: combat.
Power is very important and determines effectiveness in combat.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vader wins in a fight 8 times out of 10, Vitiate is however more powerful over all. Hell the novel states outright that Vitiate is not a combatant by any means, he is a scholar through and through.
Vader is utterly outgunned in this contest, he have no chance.

You didn't read the novel properly. Emperor Vitiate had reputation of being a scholar in the (first) ancient Sith Empire because he did not participate in wars and was not actively involved in politics. However, Emperor Vitiate kicked @ss of any Sith who attempted to challenge him.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vader on the other hand is absolutely centered on combat, Sidious even states that in an outright 1 vs 1 Vader would be a very decent match for him.
Darth Sidious was being paranoid.

Vader can win this.

Not positive about how well he'd handle that FLS. Then again, the Hero of Tython managed to best him, and the Wrath defeated him whilst he was possessed by Sel Makor, so Vader should realistically have a fair shot as well.

What about his TP?

Even on a nexus Vitiate needs time to concentrate to use his TP, and as Revan displayed, his focus can be easily interrupted.

His standard lightning isn't anything Vader shouldn't be able to stop with his lightsaber--Both Revan and the Hero of Tython are testaments to this. His Telekinesis is arguably superior to Vader's, but if it is, the difference would probably be relatively minimal. His illusions could either be dispelled, or easily dissipated via lightsaber strikes. The Emperor's FLS that overwhelmed Revan and Tol Bragga is the greatest threat to Vader that the Emperor poses without able preparation.

Unless you can recall something else, of course.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him.


Sidious was of the opinion that Vader's potential didn't decrease, and was thus still potentially more powerful than himself.

As for overall force mastery, Vitiate is Vader's superior, but in terms of raw power, it goes to Vader. Vader can casually crush entire tie fighters just by closing his fist, toss around starships, hurl huge vehicles, force blast through stone walls, collapse entire cathedrals, lift and rip apart building size droids, and telekinetically kill some jedi with ease. Not to mention he is one of the few force user who have shown to attack others with TK from a distance of light years.

His durability is such that he can tank grenade explosives, tank force blasts that destroy entire towers and disintegrate stormtroopers, survive having an entire cathedral collapsed on him, and survive an amped version of SK's lightning that's being shot directly into a tear in his chest plate.

Vader is one of the most powerful force users in galactic history. He's not going down to Vitiate with any kind of ease. Vader has the strength to push through Vitiate's lightning, and even if some of the bolts miss Vader's lightsaber and hit him, it's not going to be enough to take him out, given Vader's durability.

Long live the Emperor.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even on a nexus Vitiate needs time to concentrate to use his TP, and as Revan displayed, his focus can be easily interrupted.

His standard lightning isn't anything Vader shouldn't be able to stop with his lightsaber--Both Revan and the Hero of Tython are testaments to this. His Telekinesis is arguably superior to Vader's, but if it is, the difference would probably be relatively minimal. His illusions could either be dispelled, or easily dissipated via lightsaber strikes. The Emperor's FLS that overwhelmed Revan and Tol Bragga is the greatest threat to Vader that the Emperor poses without able preparation.

Unless you can recall something else, of course.

Only easily interrupted because Revan had a defense. Do you think Scourge could have easily interrupted him while he was curled up in a ball from psychic agony?

Revan and the Hero blocking his lightning doesn't mean Vader can. Revan at least has far superior feats against lightning than Vader has, and the Hero fought a weakened Vitiate. Plus Revan only blocked single bolts with his lightsaber.

What about sorcery? I don't recall Vader having much showings against it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is one of the most powerful force users in galactic history.
Cute. Except you forget the fact Revan has greater hype then Darth Vader, yet still was beaten by Vitiate.
He was listed among the most powerful Jedi Masters, Sith Lords, and Force-sensitives in galactic history, as Vader was. Except that is merely the start. He was awed to be the greatest warrior in not only his age (which consist of Sith Lords such as Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma shortly before him), but also in all of known Republic history (well before his prime). He was the most powerful Jedi in an age even greater then the Prequel Trilogy (also way before his prime), said by Darth Malgus to be able to personally dominate entire worlds, put Darth Malak into a shock by slaughtering his droid and Dark Jedi armies, and oh yeah, was more powerful then the Sith Strike Team could possibly imagine.

And just prepare for update 3.0. Being like the heart of the Force will be the least of your concerns.

Do you have any info on 3.0? If so PM me please.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You said Vader has no feats with regards to dealing with lightning with his saber, which is false, considering he's defended against Dooku's.

Nah, I said he had no feats suggesting he can block Vitiate's lightning. I know he possesses the technique, but he's shown none of the ability with it that would be needed. Not every berk with a lightsaber can block lightning of Vitiate's caliber.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vitiate has no feats with lightning to indicate he could overpower the saber defense of someone as strong as Vader.

Uh, yes he does. I know you're aware of them, so I'm not sure why you're saying this. What makes you think Vader would do better than the Strike Team? Vitiate could easily conjure the lightning storm then hit Vader with his charged burst while he's struggling through it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Being strong has a lot to do with it. A Kenobi level force user can use the force to draw lightning onto their saber, so it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to know how to defend against lightning via saber. The rest comes down to physical strength and/or how strong the lightning is in order to continue containing it with a saber. Vader has strength feats to suggest he could push through Vitiate's lightning with his saber, whereas Vitiate has no lightning feats to suggest he could overpower an individual as strong as Vader.

No it doesn't. It's more about your ability to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. Malgus didn't overpower the Jedi in The Third Lesson because the dudes strength wasn't enough, his lightsabers weren't blown from his hands, he just couldn't contain it and it spiraled around him f*cking him up despite him leaning forward onto his blades and actually trying to stagger through it. Likewise in Deceived, Malgus couldn't fully contain Adraas' lightning and it burned his hands. To suggest that any Kenobi level force user with big muscles can bull through Vitiate's (or Sidious') lightning is dumb, I'm sorry.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader knows about mental shields, which is how Revan blocked Vitiate's TK attack.

Yes, if Vitiate wastes his attention on trying to TP Vader, Vader could hurl Vitiate with his superior TK in a split second.

Revan did manage to force hurl Vitiate when the latter tried to TP him, despite being on a DS nexus. Vader has superior TK feats to Vitiate, so I'm not seeing why he couldn't use it to his advantage.

Any well trained Jedi or Sith knows about mental shields. That's not how Revan blocked Vitiate's telepathy attack, he did so with a technique he gained through experiencing it first hand. There's no indication that a basic mental shield can do the trick. You think Revan had to be taught about them though his experience? That he didn't know about them when he first walked into Vitiate's throne room? His master was Traya, a notable telepath and he has vast knowledge on the Force. It didn't help him. It won't help Vader.

There's nothing indicating Vader can attack Vitiate while being dominated.

Vader doesn't have the feats to TK Vitiate. He is not that far above Revan in that department who couldn't TK an IG who was merely drawing from Vitiate. Revan only hurled Vitiate when his defenses where down and by opening himself up to both sides of the Force simultaneously.

Ant, all that is nice, but Vader has greater strength feats and force feats, and was stated to be 80% of Sidious. Plus Revan is not nearly as durable as Vader is. Plus Vitiate was on a dark side nexus against Revan.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, I said he had no feats suggesting he can block Vitiate's lightning. I know he possesses the technique, but he's shown none of the ability with it that would be needed. Not every berk with a lightsaber can block lightning of Vitiate's caliber.


No, you need to go back and read what you wrote.

Braga and HoT managed to momentarily push through Vitiate's lightning, and they haven't the feats to suggest they approach Vader in strength or durability.

Vader can absorb lightning with his blade, and even if some bolts manage to hit Vader, it's not going to take Vader out, given that Vader has tanked far more destruction than what a few bolts that may hit him can cause. Heck, he took a sustained full brunt lightning attack from SK to an opening in his chest plate. He can take some bolts that might pass his saber defense.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes he does. I know you're aware of them, so I'm not sure why you're saying this. What makes you think Vader would do better than the Strike Team? Vitiate could easily conjure the lightning storm then hit Vader with his charged burst while he's struggling through it.


Vader is stronger and far more durable than any member of the strike team, unless you could provide some feats for them in those areas.


Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't. It's more about your ability to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. Malgus didn't overpower the Jedi in The Third Lesson because the dudes strength wasn't enough, his lightsabers weren't blown from his hands, he just couldn't contain it and it spiraled around him f*cking him up despite him leaning forward onto his blades and actually trying to stagger through it. Likewise in Deceived, Malgus couldn't fully contain Adraas' lightning and it burned his hands. To suggest that any Kenobi level force user with big muscles can bull through Vitiate's (or Sidious') lightning is dumb, I'm sorry.


No, it's not dumb. When Windu was struggling against Palpatine's lightning, he said he had no more strength left, which would imply his physical strength, unless you think he was talking about TK. Even in the movies, you can clearly see Windu exerting himself physically.

I didn't say Obi Wan can successfully handle Vitiate's or Sidious's lightning, only that it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to draw bolts onto their blade. Also, your lightsaber doesn't have to be blown completely from your hands to be overpowered by it. As for Malgus, well I can't help that he didn't successfully absorb Adraas's lightning.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Any well trained Jedi or Sith knows about mental shields. That's not how Revan blocked Vitiate's telepathy attack, he did so with a technique he gained through experiencing it first hand. There's no indication that a basic mental shield can do the trick. You think Revan had to be taught about them though his experience? That he didn't know about them when he first walked into Vitiate's throne room? His master was Traya, a notable telepath and he has vast knowledge on the Force. It didn't help him. It won't help Vader.


None of them compare to Palpatine's level of TP except for Vitiate. Vader was the apprentice of the most powerful telepaths in history and constantly tried to hide his thought and emotions from him, so comparing Vader to an average force user with basic shields, is silly, especially since Mara, a mere Emperor's hand, has stronger mental defenses than basic shields.

Also, what special defense did Revan use? He said he shielded his mind from Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's nothing indicating Vader can attack Vitiate while being dominated.


There is nothing to suggest that Vitiate can instantly dominate Vader's mind, so yes, Vader could use a TK attack faster than Vitiate could penetrate his mental defense.

As for Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and were mentally vulnerable, plus Vitiate prepared for them. Vader isn't mentally unstable like he was when he was falling to the dark side. He's already accepted his dark side persona and is now a master of it.

Vader has never dominated the mind of someone as powerful as Vader. Even the writer who created Vitiate doesn't even think his TP is that powerful. I'll take his opinion over yours. Unless you could provide some instances that didn't require prep or Vitiate having to render his opponents unconscious first.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader doesn't have the feats to TK Vitiate. He is not that far above Revan in that department who couldn't TK an IG who was merely drawing from Vitiate. Revan only hurled Vitiate when his defenses where down and by opening himself up to both sides of the Force simultaneously.


Vader is a superior TK user to Vitiate himself and his feats are better. Vitiate's best TK feats only rival Vader's while he's on a nexus. So yes, based on demonstrated feats, Vader is far superior to Revan. Not to mention Vader would be just as amped as Vitiate on a nexus, which Revan was not.

It's funny how you TOR fans get all riled up when someone suggests Ventress has comparable TK to Revan, but expect the PT fans to accept unsupported claims that Revan's TK rivals Vader's. No, just no.

Quote pls. Also, unlike Scourge, Vader has considerable TP feats of his own.



Is that so? Because I recall his battle against Vitiate is the only time we see Revan deflecting lightning with his lightsaber.




Fair enough, but that battle also took place within one of the most powerful concentrations of the Dark Side in history.



Didn't he also block a stream of it at one point, but it halted his charge?



I don't recall Vitiate ever applying it in combat either.

I think Vader can pull off a win. Fast and strong enough in the Force to at least replicate what Revan did.

This may (or may not) be true, but hype only goes so far.







Yep, though the same could be said for Vader.



Regardless, those two you mentioned are likely the greatest Republic warriors in that span, so it's only a little more impressive on the whole. It's also an in-universe statement from a mercenary, so it's really not the most credible.

By the way:

'This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.'

And in the generations preceding him, there were Jedi such as Yoda, Hero of Tython, and--coincidentally--Revan.



Tulak Hord conquered hundreds of worlds in his lifetime. Not that it isn't impressive, but it's something that can be said about many of the greats.



You mean the Darth Malak that was confident he could best Revan?

Originally posted by The Merchant
I think Vader can pull off a win. Fast and strong enough in the Force to at least replicate what Revan did.

Lose?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, you need to go back and read what you wrote.

Braga and HoT managed to momentarily push through Vitiate's lightning, and they haven't the feats to suggest they approach Vader in strength or durability.

Vader can absorb lightning with his blade, and even if some bolts manage to hit Vader, it's not going to take Vader out, given that Vader has tanked far more destruction than what a few bolts that may hit him can cause. Heck, he took a sustained full brunt lightning attack from SK to an opening in his chest plate. He can take some bolts that might pass his saber defense.

I said that Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that he could push through Vitiate's lightning.

Vitiate's attack was split across a wide area and multiple attackers. It's just Vader here. The combined power Vitiate used against all 5 Strike Team members will be solely focused on him. I highly doubt he'll just run through it.

He lost to a full brunt attack from SK through his chest plate. That Vader can "tank" it doesn't mean he can keep fighting after receiving that kind of damage. He survives plenty, but he's still hurt and like with Revan Vitiate will just keep pouring more and more power into him until he goes down.

So question: If this was Sidious, would you still be arguing that Vader could plow through his lightning? I'm just curious, I don't want to start anything. This is merely an honest question about your opinion.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is stronger and far more durable than any member of the strike team, unless you could provide some feats for them in those areas.

Not combined. Vitiate won't be dealing with 5 attackers here, he'll be solely focusing it on Vader. He can buy himself a few seconds to charge up the lasah at the least.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it's not dumb. When Windu was struggling against Palpatine's lightning, he said he had no more strength left, which would imply his physical strength, unless you think he was talking about TK. Even in the movies, you can clearly see Windu exerting himself physically.

I didn't say Obi Wan can successfully handle Vitiate's or Sidious's lightning, only that it doesn't take a supremely powerful force user to draw bolts onto their blade. Also, your lightsaber doesn't have to be blown completely from your hands to be overpowered by it. As for Malgus, well I can't help that he didn't successfully absorb Adraas's lightning.

It is kind of unintelligent. I never denied that physical strength had something to do with it, it does and it is A factor, only that its the sole deciding factor after you can contain lightning. That's not true at all, as evidenced by the examples I provided. Also your example is pretty poor since strength can easily refer to Force strength as well as physical strength.

It does when the lightning is supremely powerful. You think Kenobi could handle Sidious level lightning if he had like, Hulk strength? He couldn't, because his force ability is far too insufficient to deal with that kind of power. It doesn't have to be blown from your hand to be overpowered because your lightsaber defense can be overwhelmed in more ways than just the physical. Vader cannot handle lightning on the scale of Sidious or Vitiate even with his lightsaber. Unless you have feats suggesting otherwise, that is.

I... wasn't suggesting that it was your responsibility to dictate canon. So you not being able to help being wrong doesn't really excuse anything.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
None of them compare to Palpatine's level of TP except for Vitiate. Vader was the apprentice of the most powerful telepaths in history and constantly tried to hide his thought and emotions from him, so comparing Vader to an average force user with basic shields, is silly, especially since Mara, a mere Emperor's hand, has stronger mental defenses than basic shields.

Also, what special defense did Revan use? He said he shielded his mind from Vitiate.

I.... don't care that he was Sidious' apprentice and tried to hide things. Exal Kressh was Vitiate's apprentice and tried to hide stuff from him, so can she resist Sidious' telepathy too? Unless Vader has feats of actually resisting Sidious' mind, that doesn't matter.

It doesn't mean that he was using a common mental shield just because the word shield was used. Darth Revan was clearly familiar with basic telepathy, yet in the novel Revan only states that now he knows Vitiate's technqiues and how to defend against them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is nothing to suggest that Vitiate can instantly dominate Vader's mind, so yes, Vader could use a TK attack faster than Vitiate could penetrate his mental defense.

As for Vitiate's domination of Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and were mentally vulnerable, plus Vitiate prepared for them. Vader isn't mentally unstable like he was when he was falling to the dark side. He's already accepted his dark side persona and is now a master of it.

Vader has never dominated the mind of someone as powerful as Vader. Even the writer who created Vitiate doesn't even think his TP is that powerful. I'll take his opinion over yours. Unless you could provide some instances that didn't require prep or Vitiate having to render his opponents unconscious first.

And I never stated that Vitiate would instantly dominate his mind, just that Vader couldn't be capable of striking against Vitiate while battling him mentally and feeling the effects of touching Vitiate's mind, which have been established as being very hazardous through Scourge's experience and by the fact that merely touching his mind has turned beings such as Servant Two permanently insane.

Drew stated that his opinion was uninformed and unofficial in the same breath, so you're welcome to his opinions if you want but don't expect me to treat them seriously. Vader has never demonstrated anything to suggest that he can resist Vitiate mentally, while Vitiate is one of if not the most telepathically dominating beings to ever live.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader is a superior TK user to Vitiate himself and his feats are better. Vitiate's best TK feats only rival Vader's while he's on a nexus. So yes, based on demonstrated feats, Vader is far superior to Revan. Not to mention Vader would be just as amped as Vitiate on a nexus, which Revan was not.

It's funny how you TOR fans get all riled up when someone suggests Ventress has comparable TK to Revan, but expect the PT fans to accept unsupported claims that Revan's TK rivals Vader's. No, just no.

I didn't say that Revan rivals Vader in TK (though he does imo but I don't want to debate that), only that Vader is not so far above him that he can beat up Vitiate when Revan could hardly affect an IG borrowing a fraction of Vitiate's power. I don't care if you think Vader has better offensive TK than Vitiate does, but from that showing Vitiate has the defenses to tank anything Vader throws at him.

Also that claim is hardly unsupported. Others and myself have discussed it at length. You already know all the support for it.

I do agree that Revan being "vulnerable" and mentally weak is an over-exaggerated point.

Just consider it this way: Vitiate's corruption powers are more powerful then Malachor V itself. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/212414727.gif

I don't think that even needed to be established. Vitiate's corruption powers are so potent they could turn Gandi Republican and me straight.

He's probed Luke's mind without his consent from a vast distance on more than one occasion, and Luke himself is a high level telepath.

IIRC he also drove a guy insane after ripping information from his mind at one point. Don't hold me to that one, though.



That is completely unsupported, and speculation to begin with. The lightsaber absorbs the stream, it's not a force power.




And I agree. But we're talking about Darth Vader, a guy who has been building himself to defend himself against lightning specifically for years.



gtk



Can do what? How often do you see sorcery applied in combat? His illusions and TP are probably the bulk of it.

I reply tomorrow, Neph.

Also, what did you do to Ant? I remember her being the faithful servant girl to the people who trolled and mocked her. You broke her free and gave her a will of her own?

The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.


Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.


@Neph, I might reply tonight since I won't be going to sleep early.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.

Originally posted by psmith81992
The idea that Vader somehow compares to Vitiate in the force is laughable and consistent with PT fanboyism.
Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I said that Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that he could push through Vitiate's lightning.


Those weren't your words. But if that is what you were suggesting then I could just turn that argument around and say Vitiate doesn't have any feats with lightning to indicate he could easily overpower someone who not only rivals himself in power but someone far more durable than anyone he's faced.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He lost to a full brunt attack from SK through his chest plate. That Vader can "tank" it doesn't mean he can keep fighting after receiving that kind of damage.


What makes you think that some bolts that might miss Vader's saber will do as much damage as SK's full on attack that was hitting Vader in a very weak spot? Sorry, Vitiate's lightning isn't that powerful, especially off a nexus.

You're forgetting that Vader is blocking Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and doesn't have a tear in his chest.



Originally posted by Nephthys
So question: If this was Sidious, would you still be arguing that Vader could plow through his lightning? I'm just curious, I don't want to start anything. This is merely an honest question about your opinion.


How about you answer this question: why do you assume Vitiate can do everything Sidious has shown to do? Sidious chokes Dooku from across the galaxy, and you try to use that as an argument in Vitiate's favor. Now you can't provide any off nexus lightning feats to suggest Vitiate can easily down someone like Vader, then you bring Sidious in to this. Why? I could probably make an actual case for Sidious if I wanted to, but this isn't about him, and it wouldn't help your case. Unless you just want me to go on about Sidious's superiority over Vitiate, I can do that? BTW, Vader did take Sidious' lightning long enough to throw him over the DS reactor shaft.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Not combined. Vitiate won't be dealing with 5 attackers here, he'll be solely focusing it on Vader. He can buy himself a few seconds to charge up the lasah at the least.


The 5 jedi weren't combining their strength to overcome the attack, they were individually defending themselves, and most of them were stunned in the first few seconds. Only Braga and HoT managed to successfully push through the very first assault, which was 20 seconds worth of attack. Neither Braga nor HoT has Vader's strength or durability. They haven't survived half the shit Vader has been through. Vader has had his masked ripped off and then energy columns toppled directly on him, and got right back up, and then, right after that, he tanked a powerful force explosion from Marek that damaged the DS tower and shredded apart storm troopers, and still got right back up. He's been stabbed in his stomach by his own saber and got up as if nothing happened. That's not even half of what Vader has tanked. No, Vitiate has never dealt with someone like Vader.



Originally posted by Nephthys
It is kind of unintelligent. I never denied that physical strength had something to do with it, it does and it is A factor, only that its the sole deciding factor after you can contain lightning. That's not true at all, as evidenced by the examples I provided. Also your example is pretty poor since strength can easily refer to Force strength as well as physical strength.


I didn't say it was the sole factor in containing lightning, which is why I acknowledged the likelihood of some of the bolts missing Vader's saber and hitting him. I said that it doesn't require a supremely powerful force user to be able to absorb lightning onto their saber, and that if they are able to, then the rest is left up to their physical strength and/or how powerful the lightning is in order to continue containing it.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader cannot handle lightning on the scale of Sidious or Vitiate even with his lightsaber. Unless you have feats suggesting otherwise, that is.


Likewise, Vitiate can't easily overwhelm someone like Vader, unless you have feats suggesting otherwise.


Originally posted by Nephthys
I.... don't care that he was Sidious' apprentice and tried to hide things. Exal Kressh was Vitiate's apprentice and tried to hide stuff from him, so can she resist Sidious' telepathy too?



Unlike Vitiate, Sidious has actually dominated the mind of a very powerful force user (Vader) from a distance of light years. Would you accept the notion that Sidious can instantly dominate Bane's mind? I can ask questions too.

Again, this is just another area that Sidious as shown himself to be greater than Vitiate's in, so if I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing Sidious in this, unless you want to be reminded how much better Sidious is than Vitiate. Vitiate doesn't get granted Sidious capabilities just because he's his rip-off character, sorry.




Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't mean that he was using a common mental shield just because the word shield was used. Darth Revan was clearly familiar with basic telepathy, yet in the novel Revan only states that now he knows Vitiate's technqiues and how to defend against them.


So tell me how Revan's mental shield is different?



Originally posted by Nephthys
And I never stated that Vitiate would instantly dominate his mind, just that Vader couldn't be capable of striking against Vitiate while battling him mentally and feeling the effects of touching Vitiate's mind, which have been established as being very hazardous through Scourge's experience and by the fact that merely touching his mind has turned beings such as Servant Two permanently insane.


Scourge was instantly dominated, so why bring him up if you're not suggesting that Vader gets instantly dominated?

If Revan can use a force attack while fighting off Vitiate's mental intrusion, then so can Vader, except even easier considering Vader is superior to Vitiate in TK and wouldn't require as much concentration for him to use a force push as it would for Vitiate to try to break through his mental defense.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Drew stated that his opinion was uninformed and unofficial in the same breath, so you're welcome to his opinions if you want but don't expect me to treat them seriously.


I still take his opinion more seriously than I do yours, considering he wrote the character, and nothing contradicts what he said.

Other than Scourge (who doesn't have as good TP feat as Vader like NewGuy pointed out, and isn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader), Vitiate has been shown to require prep or have his opponents rendered unconscious before he can instantly dominate their minds, otherwise he's getting hurled on his ass by Revan, even while on a dark side nexus.

Here, Vitiate isn't on a nexus so most of his powers are not as great as they have been shown to be, including his telepathy. He's not instantly dominating Vader in any area of force ability without prep, or a DS nexus. Even a nexus wouldn't be that useful considering Vader would benefit from it just as much.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say that Revan rivals Vader in TK (though he does imo but I don't want to debate that), only that Vader is not so far above him that he can beat up Vitiate when Revan could hardly affect an IG borrowing a fraction of Vitiate's power. I don't care if you think Vader has better offensive TK than Vitiate does, but from that showing Vitiate has the defenses to tank anything Vader throws at him.


So just because Vitiate can withstand a Revan level telekinetic means he can withstand a telekinetic who is superior to himself? Based on what, never being attacked by one? But that logic doesn't apply to Vader concerning Vitiate's lightning?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Also that claim is hardly unsupported. Others and myself have discussed it at length. You already know all the support for it.


It is unsupported unless you can support it. In this case, you haven't. It's not too late to do so; here's your chance.


Originally posted by Nephthys
I do agree that Revan being "vulnerable" and mentally weak is an over-exaggerated point.


He was vulnerable, though. Not because he was mentally weak, but because he underestimated Vitiate, leaving himself vulnerable to Vitiate, and was already falling to the dark side at the time. Meanwhile, Vitiate was fully prepared for them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's probed Luke's mind without his consent from a vast distance on more than one occasion, and Luke himself is a high level telepath.

IIRC he also drove a guy insane after ripping information from his mind at one point. Don't hold me to that one, though.

I don't recall anything suggesting Luke was a high level telepath at this point.

Meh. Vitiate turned people insane merely from touching their minds with his.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That is completely unsupported, and speculation to begin with. The lightsaber absorbs the stream, it's not a force power.

Pffft, no it is very much a force power. If it was as easy as just holding up your lightsaber anyone could do it. I've posted proof that you need to use the Force to block it in the thread already. The lightsaber does absorb the lightning but you still need to contain and draw the lightning into the blade. That's why it's possible not to simply absorb the lightning but reflect it in some cases or to gather it around the blade and hurl the lightning back at your attacker, like Malgus does to Adraas in Deceived or Darach does to him in Return. Even Starkiller swirled lightning around his saber to give it more punch. If it was an automatic absorption by the lightsaber, those things wouldn't be possible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And I agree. But we're talking about Darth Vader, a guy who has been building himself to defend himself against lightning specifically for years.

Well, do you think he could walk through Sidious or Bane's lightning too? He still really has nothing suggesting he can do that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Can do what? How often do you see sorcery applied in combat? His illusions and TP are probably the bulk of it.

Uh, quite often? I am sure Vitiate can bust out some things similar to Thanaton's combat ritual, Ommin/Aleema's blasts and spells or some Zannah style mind-hax. I mean, Sith Sorcerer's were a thing. And Vitiate was pretty much the greatest to live other than Sidious maybe.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.

5char.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Those weren't your words. But if that is what you were suggesting then I could just turn that argument around and say Vitiate doesn't have any feats with lightning to indicate he could easily overpower someone who not only rivals himself in power but someone far more durable than anyone he's faced.

You said Vader "should be capable of pushing through Vitiate's lightning with his saber" to which I replied "Vader doesn't have the feats with regards to dealing with lightning to indicate that." I was responding directly to the claim that Vader could push through his lightning, not that he could block lightning in the first place.

I didn't claim he would easily overpower him. Although since he easily overpowered 4 of the strongest Jedi of their era, I don't think you could say that. Vader has no feats of blocking high-level lightning. Meanwhile Vitiate does have high-level feats of lightning. Do the math. /Legend

Also you're forgetting that Sith walking around in Vader style armor was a common occurrence in Vitiate's Empire. Sidious even based Vader's armor on those kinds of things. So going on about how Vitiate can't compete with Vader's durability is kind of a fallacy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What makes you think that some bolts that might miss Vader's saber will do as much damage as SK's full on attack that was hitting Vader in a very weak spot? Sorry, Vitiate's lightning isn't that powerful, especially off a nexus.

You're forgetting that Vader is blocking Vitiate's lightning with his saber, and doesn't have a tear in his chest.

It pretty much is that powerful bro. We already saw what Sidious' lightning did to Vader. Plus I'm not sure about the canonicity of that scene you're referring to. That's not how it goes in the game, ze original source.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
snip

Urgh. This was why I hesitated to ask that, I knew you'd turn it into a bloody dick-waving contest. Never ****ing mind.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The 5 jedi weren't combining their strength to overcome the attack, they were individually defending themselves, and most of them were stunned in the first few seconds. Only Braga and HoT managed to successfully push through the very first assault, which was 20 seconds worth of attack.

snip

That doesn't matter, since Vitiate is still attacking all of them at the same time. So he is dealing with their combined power at the same time. That Leeha, Kira and Warren were still overpowered in the first few seconds only indicates the immense strength of Vitiate's storm.

Meh to everything else.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I didn't say it was the sole factor in containing lightning, which is why I acknowledged the likelihood of some of the bolts missing Vader's saber and hitting him. I said that it doesn't require a supremely powerful force user to be able to absorb lightning onto their saber, and that if they are able to, then the rest is left up to their physical strength and/or how powerful the lightning is in order to continue containing it.

And I said that's wrong, because you do need to be a supremely powerful Force user to contain supremely powerful lightning, to draw it into the blade. Whatever you seem to be suggesting, if I'm reading you right you're admitting that it comes down to the strength of the lightning to keep the lightning contained after you've drawn it to the blade. Well, I say that Vader can't do that to Vitiate's lightning.

Of course, I can also suggest that if Vader can't contain the lightning it could destroy his lightsaber with the power he can't contain. Exal Kressh style. There's more ways to skin a fox than punching it in the snout. He doesn't need to be content with hitting Vader with just a few bolts if he does that.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Likewise, Vitiate can't easily overwhelm someone like Vader, unless you have feats suggesting otherwise.

I don't recall suggesting it would be easy. I think he could take it decently well for a while. Though I do think that if he does his charged attack Vader is going down in short order.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Unlike Vitiate, Sidious has actually dominated the mind of a very powerful force user (Vader) from a distance of light years. Would you accept the notion that Sidious can instantly dominate Bane's mind? I can ask questions too.

Again, this is just another area that Sidious as shown himself to be greater than Vitiate's in, so if I were you, I wouldn't keep bringing Sidious in this, unless you want to be reminded how much better Sidious is than Vitiate. Vitiate doesn't get granted Sidious capabilities just because he's his rip-off character, sorry.

Darth Revan and Darth Malak are not very powerful Force users now? That's a laugh, both have been confirmed to be amongst the greats. And no I wouldn't accept that, becuase Bane actually has feats of resisting powerful mental attacks. Vader doesn't.

That's nice.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So tell me how Revan's mental shield is different?

He didn't really go into specifics. Only that what's different about his confrontation now is that he knows how to resist Vitiate "this time." Do you think the difference between Darth Revan and Reborn Revan is so vast that D!Revan gets instantly dominated with Malak and yet R!Revan can resist Vitiate for 300 years if they're using the same technique? No, he could resist the second time because he knew how to this time. Vader doesn't have this advantage.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Scourge was instantly dominated, so why bring him up if you're not suggesting that Vader gets instantly dominated?

If Revan can use a force attack while fighting off Vitiate's mental intrusion, then so can Vader, except even easier considering Vader is superior to Vitiate in TK and wouldn't require as much concentration for him to use a force push as it would for Vitiate to try to break through his mental defense.

He didn't get dominated, he got pwned by the psychic anguish and rendered incapable of fighting back. Since Vader has some mental feats and is very powerful, I can see him doing better than this but I still don't think he can effectively attack Vitiate while he's working on dominating him.

Revan was shielding his mind from Vitiate using the knowledge he gained through experiencing it first hand. Since theres no mention of the agony Scourge faced (all that's mentioned is pressure), it's a safe assumption that he never had to deal with that shit. Vader will. And he won't take that and be capable of busting out his best attacks like Revan was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I still take his opinion more seriously than I do yours, considering he wrote the character, and nothing contradicts what he said.

Other than Scourge (who doesn't have as good TP feat as Vader like NewGuy pointed out, and isn't anywhere near as powerful as Vader), Vitiate has been shown to require prep or have his opponents rendered unconscious before he can instantly dominate their minds, otherwise he's getting hurled on his ass by Revan, even while on a dark side nexus.

Here, Vitiate isn't on a nexus so most of his powers are not as great as they have been shown to be, including his telepathy. He's not instantly dominating Vader in any area of force ability without prep, or a DS nexus. Even a nexus wouldn't be that useful considering Vader would benefit from it just as much.

That's super.

Vitiate required no prep to attempt to dominate Revan. Drews a senile twit.

Vitiate also became much more powerful than he was in his fight against Revan or in some other of his feats, due to draining his servants and Revan and other increases of his power. So him not being on a nexus is irrelevant, if a nexus was ever even an issue.

And once again, I never stated Vitiate would instantly dominate him. I think Vader is good enough to put up a fight against even Sidious, so of course he can hang with Vitiate for a bit. Though I do still think that based on the evidence, if Vitiate goes for the mindhaxx Vader will be incapacitated and taken out in short order.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So just because Vitiate can withstand a Revan level telekinetic means he can withstand a telekinetic who is superior to himself? Based on what, never being attacked by one? But that logic doesn't apply to Vader concerning Vitiate's lightning?

No, it's because a dude merely drawing on Vitiate's power can resist Revan level TK.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is unsupported unless you can support it. In this case, you haven't. It's not too late to do so; here's your chance.

For the record I think it's a dick move insisting I type out feats you already know and that I've already argued with you about.

Meteor feat.
Tossing around Nox and the Warrior.
Ripping apart a ceiling casually.
Tanking Vitiate's TK.
Hurling a heavy stone lid across a room in an instant.

He's controlled the minds of enemy soldiers piloting ships from considerable distances, forcing them to fire on their allies. He's controlled non-force sensitives, forcing them to do very specific tasks. He's reached out with his mind and scoped an entire asteroid field, detecting all in it's borders. He was able to reach out and touch the mind of Wedge Antilles whilst the latter was piloting an X-wing a considerable distance away. He's contacted Leia telepathically despite her being a considerable distance away whilst only faintly conscious.

He's certainly not the absolute highest class, but Vader touching his mind and communing with him without his consent from star systems away is impressive. Not only this, but he was able to rip secrets from Luke's mind whilst the two were locked in combat, which is even more so. Luke has high-caliber TP, and Vader's is even better than that, Scourge can't compete.



I'm not arguing Vader's TP is superior to Vitiate's, I'm arguing that he *may* be capable enough to defend himself to some degree against an assault from Vitiate.




Of course it's not that easy. It requires speed, precision, strength, and considerable defenses, but upper class Jedi are demonstrably capable of it.

Obi-Wan can't absorb lightning with his bare hands, and almost no Jedi can. But I assure you there are a good number of Jedi that have blocked lightning with their saber, because otherwise the Jedi would have been raped by Vitiate's millions of lightning-wielding Sith Lords.



I don't see any. Also, Vader has blocked lightning from Galen Marek and Count Dooku regardless. He also has extraordinarily powerful Force Defenses, has built-in lightning-proof insulation in his armor.



Walk through it? No. Stop it with his lightsaber? Yeah.



Again, his TP and Illusions seem to be his "Zannah style mind-hax". We've never seen him demonstrate blasts or combat-spells in any of his battles, and I don't see any reason he could or would use them here.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vitiate will eventually hug Vader's saber anyway.
In over a thousand years of history of combat, how many times Emperor have run into a lightsaber?

As good as Darth Vader is, he is not Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's controlled the minds of enemy soldiers piloting ships from considerable distances, forcing them to fire on their allies. He's controlled non-force sensitives, forcing them to do very specific tasks. He's reached out with his mind and scoped an entire asteroid field, detecting all in it's borders. He was able to reach out and touch the mind of Wedge Antilles whilst the latter was piloting an X-wing a considerable distance away. He's contacted Leia telepathically despite her being a considerable distance away whilst only faintly conscious.

He's certainly not the absolute highest class, but Vader touching his mind and communing with him without his consent from star systems away is impressive. Not only this, but he was able to rip secrets from Luke's mind whilst the two were locked in combat, which is even more so. Luke has high-caliber TP, and Vader's is even better than that, Scourge can't compete.
This all fine but Revan was capable of stretching his senses to galactic scale and more highly impressive stuff.

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire also have produced some of the greatest masters of telepathy in the mythos, list includes Dread Masters. Emperor Vitiate is arguably unparalleled in matters of telepathy, he can easily break an opponent of Vader's caliber with just his telepathic abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As good as Darth Vader is, he is not Hero of Tython. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/632128/data-laughs-o.gif

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In over a thousand years of history of combat, how many times Emperor have run into a lightsaber?

In his grand total of two major fights? Once.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In his grand total of two major fights? Once.
Grand total of two major fights?

Emperor Vitiate have fought many individuals actually, so many that a count have not been officially provided. His first major fight was against Lord Dramath, at the age of 10.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In over a thousand years of history of combat, how many times Emperor have run into a lightsaber?

Who said Vitiate has been fighting for over a thousand years in direct combat with anyone of high caliber?

lol

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but this is coming from you, so no one cares.


@Neph, I might reply tonight since I won't be going to sleep early.

Oh the irony of this statement. Let me know if you can find people on here that take you seriously on any level.



Well, I guess you don't count him disposing of the entire dark council. Or the fact that the Hero fought his Voice. Don't let little facts like that get in your way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who said Vitiate has been fighting for over a thousand years in direct combat with anyone of high caliber?

lol
Emperor Vitiate have dealt with many adversaries, this is why he continued to strengthen his personal powerbase and increase his safe-guard with passage of time.

Following are (known) major battles:-

- Sith Lord Dramath
- Sith Strike Team led by Darth Lokess (first known rebellious Dark Council)
- Revan and Malak
- 9 members of another rebellious Dark Council during the era of Revan
- Revan (second time)
- Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga (HoT included)
- HoT (second time)

TOR sources reveal that dozens of other Jedi were also dispatched by the Order to gather information about Emperor Vitiate and eliminate him if possible besides HoT but they all failed. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate killed many individuals in his homeworld to become its ruler.

Most of what you listed aren't even battles.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Oh the irony of this statement. Let me know if you can find people on here that take you seriously on any level.


You do.

Now, how about you, how many people take you seriously? Not too long ago in the battle bar you was the center of everyone's amusement, while you tried so desperately to prove that you don't pirate games, as if any one actually cared. They were only trolling you, just as I do when I respond to you. #cluelessmuch

Why don't you go enjoy your "wife." I know you're ashamed of her, but you could always turn the lights off.

Originally posted by psmith81992

Well, I guess you don't count him disposing of the entire dark council. Or the fact that the Hero fought his Voice. Don't let little facts like that get in your way.
He didn't battle the Dark Council. He utterly destroyed them to be sure, but it wasn't a fight. As for what the HoT fought, I think there's more evidence for that being the real Emperor than a Voice, but it matters little either way. It's still Vitiate walking into a lightsaber.

Vitiate is very bias, so he probably wouldn't hug Vader's saber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You do.

Now, how about you, how many people take you seriously? Not too long ago in the battle bar you was the center of everyone's amusement, while you tried so desperately to prove that you don't pirate games, as if any one actually cared. They were only trolling you, just as I do when I respond to you. #cluelessmuch

Why don't you go enjoy your "wife." I know you're ashamed of her, but you could always turn the lights off.

You've been here longer than me, and to this day you're still not taken seriously. You're only here to amuse the rest of us. But it's so cute that you have opinions that nobody cares about. Gives the rest of us something to laugh at.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He didn't battle the Dark Council. He utterly destroyed them to be sure, but it wasn't a fight.
It is as much a battle as any other battle, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue that rebellious Dark Council. In similar manner, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue the duo of Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
As for what the HoT fought, I think there's more evidence for that being the real Emperor than a Voice, but it matters little either way. It's still Vitiate walking into a lightsaber.
TOR Encyclopedia hinted that HoT knocked out a Voice, not the original body. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate was massively weakened at this point from disruption of his ultimate ritual. This was a "now or never" moment.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is as much a battle as any other battle, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue that rebellious Dark Council. In similar manner, Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue to the duo of Revan and Malak.

Vitiate knew they were coming and planned accordingly. He attacked them without them ever noticing. How is that a battle?

Uh huh. Go ahead and show me where I said that he said that he didn't.

I said there was more evidence for it being the real Emperor than not, but I never denied the possibility of it being a Voice, and never denied that Vitiate is weakened. Either way, Vitiate was in control of his actions and walked into the saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It pretty much is that powerful bro. We already saw what Sidious' lightning did to Vader. Plus I'm not sure about the canonicity of that scene you're referring to. That's not how it goes in the game, ze original source.


No, it is not that powerful. And again, Sidious is not Vitiate. Stop using Palpatine's feats as feats for Vitiate.

If you're referring to the canonicity of the tear in Vader's chest, well the game doesn't contradict it, as most of their saber duel happens within game mechanic. Regardless, Vader still tanked over 30 seconds of SK's very amplified lightning attack, without a saber.


9w0rv08AD3c

(skip to about 4:50)



Originally posted by Nephthys
So he is dealing with their combined power at the same time. That Leeha, Kira and Warren were still overpowered in the first few seconds only indicates the immense strength of Vitiate's storm.


I agree, but it would also indicate that they were irrelevant and that the rest of the attack plus the second charged attack was aimed more towards Braga and HoT, considering they were the only ones pushing through. Vader has tanked shit that they would probably be killed by, even if they are together.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course, I can also suggest that if Vader can't contain the lightning it could destroy his lightsaber with the power he can't contain. Exal Kressh style.


It didn't destroy Braga's or HoT's lightsabers while they were momentarily pushing through it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't recall suggesting it would be easy. I think he could take it decently well for a while.


Then why did you challenge me when I told Sinious to get off of Vitiate's dick for claiming Vitiate would easily overpower Vader?


Originally posted by Nephthys
Though I do think that if he does his charged attack Vader is going down in short order.


I don't.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Darth Revan and Darth Malak are not very powerful Force users now? That's a laugh, both have been confirmed to be amongst the greats.


Not as powerful as Vader, who rivals Vitiate. Plus, as I said, Revan outright admits that they underestimated Vitiate, and Vitiate prepared for their arrival.


Originally posted by Nephthys
And no I wouldn't accept that, becuase Bane actually has feats of resisting powerful mental attacks.


Zannah's TP doesn't even approach Palpatine's.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't really go into specifics. Only that what's different about his confrontation now is that he knows how to resist Vitiate "this time.


I'm not going to assume that a mental shield is different than a mental shield.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think the difference between Darth Revan and Reborn Revan is so vast that D!Revan gets instantly dominated with Malak and yet R!Revan can resist Vitiate for 300 years if they're using the same technique? No, he could resist the second time because he knew how to this time.


What technique did Revan use the first time? He underestimated Vitiate the first time.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader doesn't have this advantage.


Vitiate doesn't have the advantage of prep this time.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't get dominated, he got pwned by the psychic anguish and rendered incapable of fighting back.


It's still a form of being mentally dominated.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Since Vader has some mental feats and is very powerful, I can see him doing better than this but I still don't think he can effectively attack Vitiate while he's working on dominating him.


I don't think Vitiate can keep from getting hurled on his ass while trying to TP Vader. Even for Vitiate, a force push doesn't require as much concentration and is much easier to utilize in combat situation, considering he used one on Revan to distance him before trying to mind dominate him.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate required no prep to attempt to dominate Revan.


And he failed the second time. Evidently, Vitiate doesn't have much faith in instantly dominating a powerful force user without prep, which is why he opened up with a force attack before he even attempted to dominate Revan's mind.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate also became much more powerful than he was in his fight against Revan or in some other of his feats, due to draining his servants and Revan and other increases of his power. So him not being on a nexus is irrelevant, if a nexus was ever even an issue.


It's not irrelevant, unless you can provide some feats to suggest he would be more powerful off a nexus than he was during his confrontation with Revan while he was on one.



Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it's because a dude merely drawing on Vitiate's power can resist Revan level TK.


On a dark side nexus.

Once again, Revan doesn't match Vader in TK. Heck, Vitiate's own TK feats only rival that of Vader's when he's on a nexus, otherwise Vader has him beat in that area.

You imply that Vitiate is so far above Revan in TK that a guard drawing on his power can resist a TK attack from Revan, and then list Revan "tanking" Vitiate's TK as a feat for Revan, which would imply that Vitiate isn't so far ahead of Revan in TK as to dominate him with it.



Originally posted by Nephthys
For the record I think it's a dick move insisting I type out feats you already know and that I've already argued with you about.


I'm not a fan of Revan so I don't keep up with his feats, and thought maybe you could provide something I didn't already know, which you didn't. None of Revan's feats put him on par with Vader in terms of TK.

It's Vader who doesn't have feats comparable to Vitiate not visa verse

Is S66 arguing against Vitiate's superiority here?

Not at all, tbh.

Ok.

Unless this is full potential Vader...that is, Mortiskin...

...There's not really much he can do here.

Vader might speedblitz tbh.

Originally posted by Stigma
Vader might speedblitz tbh.

Can Vader speedblitz Revan?

Originally posted by Sinious
Can Vader speedblitz Revan?
No. Revan teleports the f*ck out of there when he sees Vader approaching.

Originally posted by Stigma
No.

Exactly, so he can't speedblitz Vitiate as well.

Revan has teleportation as I mentioned. Vitiate does not.

You said no, that's good enough. I just filtered out the trolly part of your post.

Originally posted by AncientPower
"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begun."

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

Clearly Vader in Sidious' opinion would become a genuine threat to him. What's the source for that?

Quite certain it's Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader but I'll double check if necessary.

Vader isn't speedblitzing Vitiate who', has reacted to oponents of similar speed such as Revan

Is this even a question?

Not anymore.

Originally posted by Sinious
You said no, that's good enough. I just filtered out the trolly part of your post.
Dang it

I might got carried away but can you blame me? Vader is so much cooler than Viti.

Originally posted by Stigma
Dang it

I might got carried away but can you blame me? Vader is so much cooler than Viti.

I like the idea of total annihilation and an ego arrogant enough to attempt it but I agree, Vader's swag is not possible for almost any other character to surpass.