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Rank the top 20 heroes CIS removed.


Rank the top 20 Villains CIS removed.

Superboy should fit somewhere in there.

By that I mean Kon-El and not Jon Kent because Jon Kent is a freaking pansy.

DCNU Superboy has recently got a power boost. Before hand he was tanking punches from Supergirl like she was nothing. He is most definitely one of the top in DCNU along with Superman, J'onn, and Wonder Woman. In time, it has been stated that Superboy will have the power to kill every meta on the planet with ease.

Originally posted by Iskandar
By that I mean Kon-El and not Jon Kent because Jon Kent is a freaking pansy.

They are pretty much the same character.

Originally posted by carver9
They are pretty much the same character.

Yeah, but the difference is I hate Jon Kent I really do. That and Kon-El handed him his arse when they first met.

Didn't particularly like it when they replaced Kon-El with Jon Kent as of Superboy #26. It's nice to see Kon-El back in #33.

Speaking of that a fused Kon-El and Jon Kent could alter time-lines outright and create pocket universes in that same issue. Also, the present Jon Kent was able to separate the both of them.

Pretty hardcore psionic power all around.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Yeah, but the difference is I hate Jon Kent I really do. That and Kon-El handed him his arse when they first met.

Didn't particularly like it when they replaced Kon-El with Jon Kent as of Superboy #26. It's nice to see Kon-El back in #33.

Speaking of that a fused Kon-El and Jon Kent could alter time-lines outright and create pocket universes in that same issue. Also, the present Jon Kent was able to separate the both of them.

Pretty hardcore psionic power all around.

Exactly. He's operating somewhere between High Herald to mod trans. Extremely powerful. Pretty sure he will not be keeping that upgrade though because if he does, that would make him the most powerful being on the planet. It has always been mentioned that his powers would increase to insane levels but we all know that will not stick when we have certain characters in DCNU that would get placed behind Superboy with this increase. DC will not let that happen.

The only thing they are really lacking in is telepathy. Besides Kon-El siphoning Kara's memories in Superboy #6 and rewriting her memories in Superman #25, he doesn't have a lot going for him in that area. Jon Kent is able to give Kon-El his memories and that's about all I remember from him.

Originally posted by Iskandar
The only thing they are really lacking in is telepathy. Besides Kon-El siphoning Kara's memories in Superboy #6 and rewriting her memories in Superman #25, he doesn't have a lot going for him in that area. Jon Kent is able to give Kon-El his memories and that's about all I remember from him.

He doesn't need telepathy. Also, Jon can absorb the powers of other metas just by being in their vicinity (i think you like him because he's evil)...does that mean he can absorb the powers of a telepathic meta and add it to his own? Can't remember off hand if he could or couldn't.

Originally posted by carver9
He doesn't need telepathy. Also, Jon can absorb the powers of other metas just by being in their vicinity (i think you like him because he's evil)...does that mean he can absorb the powers of a telepathic meta and add it to his own? Can't remember off hand if he could or couldn't.

No, I hate Jon Kent it's Kon-El I like but if you mean by other people in general yes maybe.

Anyway, answering your question. I don't think so. The way Jon's absorption works is not that he literally takes someone elses abilities but that he absorbs them to boost his own psionic power.

The first time he did it in Superboy #26 against some lady with lightning powers. Died as a result of Jon absorbing them.

Less TALKING and more LISTING!

At least give a top 10 for each cataegory.

I dunno. Any listing I would make probably be inaccurate by some measure. I haven't read every run/series. However, going by the runs I have read so far...

Okay, I will do one for heroes.

1. Kon-El/Jon Kent fused together into a superbeing that can alter time-lines and create universes.

2. Animal Man w/Godseed because he could simply tap into the Red of the universe and mix 'n match the powers of every species in the universe.

3. Batman w/Hellbat suit if the hype surrounding it is to be believed.

4. Kon-El after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.

5. Superman & Supergirl as well as other people such as Wonder Woman, Kon-El prior to absorbing Jon Kent's memories, and anyone in that area.

6. Martian Manhunter

7. Andrew Bennett after being brought back to life by the Crystal One with a large portion of the world's magic and defeating Cain. This might actually be higher I am not sure.

8. Apollo maybe but definitely below Andrew Bennett post his rebirth, as Bennett could defeat the entirety of Stormwatch by himself including Apollo.

That's all I have got. Flash should probably be somewhere near the top five but I haven't read enough of New 52 Flash to say.

Originally posted by Iskandar
I dunno. Any listing I would make probably be inaccurate by some measure. I haven't read every run/series. However, going by the runs I have read so far...

Okay, I will do one for heroes.

1. Kon-El/Jon Kent fused together into a superbeing that can alter time-lines and create universes.

2. Animal Man w/Godseed because he could simply tap into the Red of the universe and mix 'n match the powers of every species in the universe.

3. Batman w/Hellbat suit if the hype surrounding it is to be believed.

4. Kon-El after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.

5. Superman & Supergirl as well as other people such as Wonder Woman, Kon-El prior to absorbing Jon Kent's memories, and anyone in that area.

6. Martian Manhunter

7. Andrew Bennett after being brought back to life by the Crystal One with a large portion of the world's magic and defeating Cain. This might actually be higher I am not sure.

8. Apollo maybe but definitely below Andrew Bennett post his rebirth, as Bennett could defeat the entirety of Stormwatch by himself including Apollo.

That's all I have got. Flash should probably be somewhere near the top five but I haven't read enough of New 52 Flash to say.

Where would you rank Firestorm/Fury?

Also, SWAMP THING.

No idea haven't read any of Firestorm's stuff yet.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Also, SWAMP THING.

He could fight Superman during the Rotworld storyline. However, Superman was weakened by the Rot and they ultimately needed kryptonite to kill him.

So, probably still below Superman. However, the Green that Swamp Thing drew his powers from was weakened too. So, you could also say they were both not as strong as they normally were then and at full power might still be even.

Also, during the same storyline Animal Man managed to kill the Flash who was also weakened by the Rot. Once again, the Red which Animal Man drew his powers from was also weakened during this time as the Rot had taken over the world.

Superman was still more powerful than Superboy who was creating universes or timelines due to his decisions. Not due to his own power. Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet under the same writer aka Lobdell.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965467-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-005.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965466-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965463-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-008.jpg

In short, a lot of context left out there.

There are 2 Superboys now?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
There are 2 Superboys now?

They showed a whole multiverse of them.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
There are 2 Superboys now?
Lobdell is stupid.

Ugh. Shouldn't have dropped DCNU.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman was still more powerful than Superboy who was creating universes or timelines due to his decisions. Not due to his own power. Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet under the same writer aka Lobdell.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965467-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-005.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965466-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-006.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965463-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-008.jpg

In short, a lot of context left out there.

No, you're the one leaving out the context here. Kon-El notes the reason they are so powerful is that they have both time-traveled so much they their new body was now naturally producing tachyons. They were producing the energy that was feeding the universe itself.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg

You even posted the scan where it's stated here.

The merged Superboy was literally creating a pocket universe and altering time-lines at will. Not by his decisions but simply by his desire.

As we see the merged Superboy demonstrate here in Superboy #33.

http://i.imgur.com/Q5kvTgj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PMCUX3r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DE7IFfK.jpg

We see the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent easily put the smack down on the other Superboy's disintegrating two of them.

http://i.imgur.com/SDzbej7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then we see Kon-El/Jon Kent create a pocket universe and he changes Peter, Michael, and Rose into alternate time-line versions of themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then Kon-El/Jon Kent does the same with Niti turning her into a freaking Green Lantern.

http://i.imgur.com/P7zFnZZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/csbn5Ip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qA9rS9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q989I4F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LrBefBf.jpg

Then present Jon Kent makes his appearance and is able to separate Kon-El and future Jon Kent.

As for "Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet" that's just a statement not evidence.

I could say I am the most powerful creature in the universe but that doesn't prove it.

Originally posted by Iskandar
No, you're the one leaving out the context here. Kon-El notes the reason they are so powerful is that they have both time-traveled so much they their new body was now naturally producing tachyons. They were producing the energy that was feeding the universe itself.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg

You even posted the scan where it's stated here.

The merged Superboy was literally creating a pocket universe and altering time-lines at will. Not by his decisions but simply by his desire.

As we see the merged Superboy demonstrate here in Superboy #25.

http://i.imgur.com/Q5kvTgj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PMCUX3r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DE7IFfK.jpg

We see the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent easily put the smack down on the other Superboy's disintegrating two of them.

http://i.imgur.com/SDzbej7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then we see Kon-El/Jon Kent create a pocket universe and he changes Peter, Michael, and Rose into alternate time-line versions of themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then Kon-El/Jon Kent does the same with Niti turning her into a freaking Green Lantern.

http://i.imgur.com/P7zFnZZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/csbn5Ip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qA9rS9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q989I4F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LrBefBf.jpg

Then present Jon Kent makes his appearance and is able to separate Kon-El and future Jon Kent.

As for "Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet" that's just a statement not evidence.

I could say I am the most powerful creature in the universe but that doesn't prove it.



And Superboy on many of occasions has been claimed as the most powerful being on the planet, especially when he tap into his full power. ABHI is in denial. If he thinks Superman is more powerful than a being that can create universes and destroy someone that can create Heralds, them something is wrong.

Also, typo there I meant Superboy #33.

1. Superboy
2. Martian Manhunter (Because of Telepathy)
3. Superman
4. Firestorm
5. Wonder Woman
6. Maxima
7. Mon-el

That is all I can think of

1. Superman
2. Martian Manhunter
3. Hal
4. WonderWoman
5. Orion
6. Kyle
7. John Constantine
8. Supergirl Red Lantern
9. Superboy
10. Flash
11. Shazam
12. Swamp Thing
13. Aquaman
14. Cyborg
15. Franky
16. Firestorm
17. Zatanna
18. Guy
19. Baz
20. Adam Blake

Bring on the villains!

Superboy
Captain Atom
Constantine
Powered up Lois Lane
Zatanna
Ultraman
Alan
Orion=Superman=Martian Manhunter=Wonder Woman=Apollo=Supergirl
Frankenstein
Firestorm
Captain Marvel
Black Adam
Sinestro
GL
Flash

Originally posted by Iskandar
No, you're the one leaving out the context here. Kon-El notes the reason they are so powerful is that they have both time-traveled so much they their new body was now naturally producing tachyons. They were producing the energy that was feeding the universe itself.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg

You even posted the scan where it's stated here.

The merged Superboy was literally creating a pocket universe and altering time-lines at will. Not by his decisions but simply by his desire.

As we see the merged Superboy demonstrate here in Superboy #25.

http://i.imgur.com/Q5kvTgj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PMCUX3r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DE7IFfK.jpg

We see the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent easily put the smack down on the other Superboy's disintegrating two of them.

http://i.imgur.com/SDzbej7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then we see Kon-El/Jon Kent create a pocket universe and he changes Peter, Michael, and Rose into alternate time-line versions of themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then Kon-El/Jon Kent does the same with Niti turning her into a freaking Green Lantern.

http://i.imgur.com/P7zFnZZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/csbn5Ip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qA9rS9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q989I4F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LrBefBf.jpg

Then present Jon Kent makes his appearance and is able to separate Kon-El and future Jon Kent.

As for "Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet" that's just a statement not evidence.

I could say I am the most powerful creature in the universe but that doesn't prove it. You definitely owned him.

Really hating that typo I made, and I don't want anyone to misquote me later on if they use those scans.

Could any mod edit the "Superboy #25" to "Superboy #33."

Originally posted by quanchi112
You definitely owned him.

Reduced to cheerleading I see,

The Thanosi are on THE BRINK!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Reduced to cheerleading I see,

The Thanosi are on THE BRINK!



That's what I noticed. I still have to laugh.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Reduced to cheerleading I see,

The Thanosi are on THE BRINK! He provided context which Batman prime ignored as the norm.

You don't ever debate making this statement very ironic.

Thanks for the laughs.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe


That's what I noticed. I still have to laugh. He provided context to which Abhi had no answer and no proof.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He provided context to which you had no answer and no proof.




Please show me in THIS thread me having a discussion with him kinda

You fail yet again, blinded by your hate, reduced to a cheerleading coward. Oh god, I have to laugh really hard right now

So much fail in two posts.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Please show me in THIS thread me having a discussion with him kinda

You fail yet again, blinded by your hate, reduced to a cheerleading coward. Oh god, I have to laugh really hard right now

So much fail in two posts. The posts are in this very thread with Abhi. This doesn't even concern you, goon. You shouldn't laugh at yourself as it is kind of sad.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The posts are in this very thread. You shouldn't laugh at yourself as it is kind of sad.

Quote me me pls then, where did I have a discussion with him? Show me, in THIS thread

Never change quan, you are always good for a laugh

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Quote me me pls then, where did I have a discussion with him? Show me, in THIS thread

Never change quan, you are always good for a laugh It was Abhi you goon.





Are you his white knight ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You don't ever debate making this statement very ironic.

Thanks for the laughs.



I just STOMPED you in the BLOOD AND THUNDER THOR vs GA Superman Prime thread!

You ran off as is your want.

I shouldn't be surprised though, you're acting just like the Emo eggplant that your worship!

Originally posted by quanchi112
He provided context to which you had no answer and no proof.


smile

Last edited by quanchi112 on Today at 04:08 AM

Originally posted by quanchi112
The posts are in this very thread. You shouldn't laugh at yourself as it is kind of sad.

Last edited by quanchi112 on Today at 04:09 AM


:lol.


This is the most pathetic attempt to save face I ever saw on a forum.



Editing your posts, really? After I quoted you and everyone can see what you originally wrote, really?

You made a mistake instead of being a man you behave like a coward.

Never change Quan .

Quan will always be known as the coward Thanos fan, who thinks Superman beats him in a feat contest.

Always.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Last edited by quanchi112 on Today at 04:08 AM



Last edited by quanchi112 on Today at 04:09 AM


:lol.


This is the most pathetic attempt to save face I ever saw on a forum.



Editing your posts, really? After I quoted you and everyone can see what you originally wrote, really?

You made a mistake instead of being a man you behave like a coward.

Never change Quan . What are you talking about ? I always referred to Abhi. You altering my quotes is a pathetic attempt to attack me.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What are you talking about ? I always referred to Abhi. You altering my quotes is a pathetic attempt to attack me.



Since I never edited my posts, where you made your mistake, you exposed yourself as a liar.

Honestly Quan, you make mistakes, you are a coward, you can't man up and now you are a liar. GG.
This is really the most pathetic attempt to save face.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Since I never edited my posts, where you made your mistake, you exposed yourself as a liar.

Honestly Quan, you make mistakes, you are a coward, you can't man up and now you are a liar. GG.
This is really the most pathetic attempt to save face.
You edited my post and it wouldn't say otherwise.


You are a liar. Just admit to your lies.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He provided context which Batman prime ignored as the norm.

You don't ever debate making this statement very ironic.

Thanks for the laughs.



Oh and Quan, you forgot to edit this one . You little liar you .

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Oh and Quan, you forgot to edit this one . You little liar you . What ? Just man up and throw yourself under my mercy.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I just STOMPED you in the BLOOD AND THUNDER THOR vs GA Superman Prime thread!

You ran off as is your want.

I shouldn't be surprised though, you're acting just like the Emo eggplant that your worship! No, that is a lie. I posted evidence whereas you ignored it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What ? Just man up and throw yourself under my mercy.

Concession accepted. Pathetic. From today on I will call you liar, nothing else .

Originally posted by quanchi112
What are you talking about ? I always referred to Abhi. You altering my quotes is a pathetic attempt to attack me.



You made a mistake there's nothing wrong with owning up to it. Just do so and move on. You might have been tired and mistook this thread for another one or whatever happened but pretending it didn't happen won't help.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Concession accepted. Pathetic. From today on I will call you liar, nothing else .

That will make your posts highly ironic.

Originally posted by Iskandar
You made a mistake there's nothing wrong with owning up to it. Just do so and move on. You might have been tired and mistook this thread for another one or whatever happened but pretending it didn't happen won't help.



Thanks. Glad you saw the original posts ^^.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, that is a lie. I posted evidence whereas you ignored it.


You posted evidence of what?

YOUR IDIOCY?

I'm assuming this is just for heroes, and not above HH.

0. Captain Atom, I put him as zero since he's technically dead.
1. Constantine
2. Superman
3. Kyle Rayner
4. Sinestro
5. Frankenstein
6. Shazam, Black Adam, Orion
7. Hal
8. Wonder Woman
9. Flash
10. Firestorm

Originally posted by Iskandar
No, you're the one leaving out the context here. Kon-El notes the reason they are so powerful is that they have both time-traveled so much they their new body was now naturally producing tachyons. They were producing the energy that was feeding the universe itself.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3965465-2014-07-09+07-39-40+-+superboy+%282011-%29+033-007.jpg

You even posted the scan where it's stated here.

The merged Superboy was literally creating a pocket universe and altering time-lines at will. Not by his decisions but simply by his desire.

As we see the merged Superboy demonstrate here in Superboy #25.

http://i.imgur.com/Q5kvTgj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PMCUX3r.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DE7IFfK.jpg

We see the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent easily put the smack down on the other Superboy's disintegrating two of them.

http://i.imgur.com/SDzbej7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then we see Kon-El/Jon Kent create a pocket universe and he changes Peter, Michael, and Rose into alternate time-line versions of themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/5jCSMti.jpg

Then Kon-El/Jon Kent does the same with Niti turning her into a freaking Green Lantern.

http://i.imgur.com/P7zFnZZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/csbn5Ip.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qA9rS9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q989I4F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LrBefBf.jpg

Then present Jon Kent makes his appearance and is able to separate Kon-El and future Jon Kent.

As for "Superman was stated like a thousand times to be the most powerful being on planet" that's just a statement not evidence.

I could say I am the most powerful creature in the universe but that doesn't prove it.
You are showing nothing but the result of what happened after the universe threw them out of the real timeline and they absorbed an outside source of energy.

That's not their own powers. It was due to tachyons they absorbed and its useless in any kind of power gauging. Simple as that.

I'm not sure why I have to remind people that this isn't the MvF. Here the mods always get the last word and we don't suffer back and forth petty bickering. I suggest everybody stop now.

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm not sure why I have to remind people that this isn't the MvF. Here the mods always get the last word and we don't suffer back and forth petty bickering. I suggest everybody stop now.

Further proof of the unholy alliance known as

QUANABING!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Further proof of the unholy alliance known as

QUANABING! Originally posted by Digi


the f--- is going on. LoB is like the angry little dog that demands a fight wherever it goes. Or rather, barks a lot and not much else.

dactRdHnW0Q

Originally posted by abhilegend
You are showing nothing but the result of what happened after the universe threw them out of the real timeline and they absorbed an outside source of energy.

No, and it's relevant because who I put as number one was Kon-El and Jon Kent fused together not either one of them by themselves. In fact, I put Kon-El lower on the list remember?

What the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent did happened. It is a thing. You're just trying to reach for some vague fanon explanation for it in order to dismiss it.



The tachyons they were naturally producing as a result of all the time-travel nonsense they have been through. They didn't absorb anything. They were generating tachyons.

There's also the fact that before this Kon-El was also acting as a herald for the Oracle. Which we find out about in Teen Titans Annual #3. Considering how much the Oracle dealt with timey whimey nonsense that might also be a factor in this. We don't know if that's the case though.

Originally posted by Iskandar
No, and it's relevant because who I put as number one was Kon-El and Jon Kent fused together not either one of them by themselves. In fact, I put Kon-El lower on the list remember?

What the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent did happened. It is a thing. You're just trying to reach for some vague fanon explanation for it in order to dismiss it.



The tachyons they were naturally producing as a result of all the time-travel nonsense they have been through. They didn't absorb anything. They were generating tachyons.

There's also the fact that before this Kon-El was also acting as a herald for the Oracle. Which we find out about in Teen Titans Annual #3. Considering how much the Oracle dealt with timey whimey nonsense that might also be a factor in this. We don't know if that's the case though.
And the combination was using outside powers to do something that's not in their own power. Tachyon power up is not their own power.

Its not their own power. Simple as that. Lobdell routinely said that Superman was the most powerful being on planet. Just read H'el on earth and Return of Krypton and find out that. The writer himself didn't consider Superboy lower than Superman. In fact Superboy being more powerful than Superboy is in itself contradictory as explained by Harvest.

Just recently in Doomed, Superman has been stated to be the most powerful being in galaxy three times. That carries more weight than random feats with random power ups.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And the combination was using outside powers to do something that's not in their own power.

Nope, we're clear that it was being generated by them. They become what they are because of A) fusing together and B) the amount of times they time-traveled which led to their body's naturally producing tachyons.



It is and it is literally stated, they were producing it as in making it as in it was literally coming from them.

Yet, apparently statements only matter when they serve your bias towards Superman.



So, that statement matters in the face of characters whose feats far exceed Superman's even though Kal-El has not once altered time-lines to his whims or created pocket universe.

Nope, still more powerful because "lol Lobdell." No there is something important when it comes to to debates and that's the death of the author.

The mechanic of it and not the literal death of author.



Not only have I read them I have also made a detailed respect thread for Superboy not only noting the feats but the entire context of the issues he is in.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=999256

Don't act like I don't know anything about Superboy when I wasted well over several dozen hours cataloging his appearances.



Don't know what you're talking about but what I do remember is Harvest stating that Kon-El has showed the potential to dwarf his adopted son Jon Kent's power.

Superboy #19

http://i.imgur.com/KkgvIC4.jpg

"only to learn under the threat of death, the creature showed me a glimpse of power that dwarfed my adopted son's own."



More statements and no feats to actually back them up why I am not surprised?

Oh, and another thing abhilegend I have a another nice little scan to show you since you like statements by Lobdell so much.

Superman #25

http://i.imgur.com/eBrYMGz.jpg

"A clone of a kryptonian, a human, and singular entity in all of time and space."

"Given time his mind and body would be without limit."

It's Superboy and not Superman who is specified as eventually having no limits in body or mind. While Superman is specified to change the course of history, and Supergirl's rage would consume worlds possibly implying that she might become a villain later on.

Guess who wrote and drew Superman #25.

http://i.imgur.com/asTHi5r.jpg

Scott Lobdell and Kenneth Rocafort.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Nope, we're clear that it was being generated by them. Due to the excessive time travel. Not by their own powers. The second thing eliminates all prospects of being their own powers.



Due to an outside phenomena aka time travel.

Oh really?



Superman doesn't time travels either. Animal man has created universes, Vixen has done that too. That doesn't mean they are even on the level of Superman.

Really? Tell me more about that.

Lobdell has died?



Good thread. I'll give you that.

Good for you I guess.



Potential=/=power.

And that has as much value as any given talk of potential. Aka zero.



Feats? Superman has like several in last month only.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Oh, and another thing abhilegend I have a another nice little scan to show you since you like statements by Lobdell so much.

Superman #25

http://i.imgur.com/eBrYMGz.jpg

"A clone of a kryptonian, a human, and singular entity in all of time and space." Nothing basically. Here is an actual statement by Lobdell.

http://i.imgur.com/j4Q9nWc.jpg

"The most powerful man on earth." Superboy was in that comic too.

Really? C'mon.

Superman has been repeatedly stated to be the most powerful being on earth.

Guess who wrote Superman 20?

http://i.imgur.com/4nGh91j.jpg

I can literally post a dozen examples of Superman being described as the most powerful being on earth from Lobdell's run only. You only have a vague statement from a writer who repeatedly stated that Superman was the most powerful being on earth. And some universe creating/timelines altering which according to Lobdell was due to decisions rather than actual powers. That's why H'el saving krypton was having omniverse in danger. That doesn't makes H'el omniversal being.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nothing basically. Here is an actual statement by Lobdell.

http://i.imgur.com/j4Q9nWc.jpg

Which you pilfered from my thread on NF. You didn't even change the imgur link at all.



Yes, and that statement is so utterly absolute in spite of any and all feats.

Yes, that was sarcasm just so you know. Statements especially broad ones like this one prove nothing. It only works if you play favorites and ignore all the other statements and feats for every other man on earth.



No, no, no, no don't give me that "really come on" nonsense. This is no different. I could say from this statement Kon-El by himself is eventually going to become the most powerful being on the planet, and have limitless power at his disposal.

If I debated like you do which I don't. So, I won't say that.

Statements that are this broad are not meant to be taken seriously. If you do you are in fact showing favoritism. You need to ignore every other writer excluding Lobdell. Basically, treat Scott Lobdell as the all knowing god of DC. Pretend that all of those other characters on earth, the men in particular don't have their own similar statements regarding their abilities by different writers.

Finally you need dismiss all feats as unusable if they prove those statements regarding Superman wrong. For instance a character, who is a man and of earth, being able to beat Superman is automatically PIS. Despite whether that character may have superior feats in comparison to Superman, and their own little claims in regards to their place in the universe.

It's like the very definition of plugging your ears up with wax, and then refusing to listen to any other evidence other than what you like to listen to.

Superman has been repeatedly stated to be the most powerful being on earth.



It doesn't matter how many statements you actually have if you have nothing to back them up. No evidence, no feat, no nothing. Just hype.



Who gives a particular damn if Superman is called the most powerful boyscout on earth, if there's nothing actually proving he is most powerful boyscout on earth.



Who gives a damn what Scott Lobdell thinks what happened in Superboy #33. He is not even the writer for that issue. Aaron Kuder is the actual writer for when Kon-El and Jon Kent fused together.



Are you really this disingenuous H'el traveled through time, and we clearly see H'el travel through time to do this. What we see Kon-El/Jon Kent do is on but a whim warp reality and create pocket universes.

It's completely freaking different. It's like comparing a chocolate cake to a chicken salad.

Originally posted by Iskandar
If a person derives their powers from an event that changes their bodies so they naturally produce tachyons. It's their own power at that point. Not if it is temporary. Its called a temporary amp. You don't see people arguing that Guardian amped Prime was SBP's default power, do you?


facepalm

That event changed his life forever. Here it gave Superboy a temporary power up which will be forgotten as soon as the next time he appears.



Nope. Try again.



What is so hard for you to understand?




Take that BS to someone who cares. Writer intentions are EVERYTHING in comics. That's why we argue about different writers and their take on characters.



Take that to CBR or narutoforums. And I was being sarcastic.



Not if a writer repeatedly states something. Lobdell literally drove it to the ground. And that's the writer who chooses who is more powerful. Not you or me.

Nice fail there kid.



Haha, really? I mean, really?

Good for him. Now what has Jon kent ever done to think he is even close to Superman in power?

Thanks for telling me something I already know.



He doesn't need to. Because that's not a feat for them either. Its like saying these characters are universal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Animal man and 2 other morphogenetic field users create a universe.

http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17489030_createuniversegm9.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17489031_createuniverse1wc0.jpg http://s3d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/17489032_createuniverse2qn3.jpg



And they did it under their own power. These random feats mean really nothing.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Which you pilfered from my thread on NF. You didn't even change the imgur link at all. I searched on google because I don't have my comics with me right now. Sorry for that.



You like five more statements like that?

Not if Superman has feats to back them up. And he has a tons of them.



That would be false since no such comment was made in comics. That limitless comment has been made to all people in comics. Heck Byrne Superman's power was stated to be literally limitless.

You debate like CBR and that's why you fail.

You would have a point if other writers hadn't said that. Others have said such too like Keith Giffen, Geoff Johns, Greg Pak, George Perez and so on.

Not really. It would be illogical, power isn't everything in a fight. But when it comes to power, Superman is the being to go.

You haven't produced an evidence.

Oh really? Who end up tearing Doomsday in half? Who benched earth for five days straight? Who just threw a ship larger than earth with J'onn? These are feats which matter.



Who gives a damn about what you think? I will pick the writers over random internet posters like you every day of the week.



Aaron Kuder has made it clear that it wasn't their own power either.



Due to the same phenomena. They are using powers out of their own to do that. The difference is that H'el has to time travel and Superboy was so much saturated with chronal energy that he did by his own actions.

Don't tell me you are this slow to understand something so simple.

Iskandar

Welcome to The House of El!

Iskandar, are you referring to the Pcket-Universe and bestowing powers during the paradox arc? If so, wasn't Kon in a special dimension or place, or his head, where all this happened? Can you post the scan where Superboy returns? Because outside of this paradoxon he never displayed those powers because in the normal reality he can't.

Superman has far superior feats, strength, speed and durability. Maybe Superboy will grown as powerful one day to be his equal.
Right now IIRC his best feats are vague because they happened in a dimension or his head, where multiple Superboys existed and created a paradox of realities, a place where everything is possible.

^Never mind, found it in Galans ownange thread.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703115/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703116/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-020.jpg.html

Those events that happened in the pocket universe, were not as good as it sounded at first, if they happened at all the way some interpreted it. Let's see what happens in the main real Universe, not Kons head.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^Never mind, found it in Galans ownange thread.
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703115/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-019.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/19703116/2014-08-13_07-41-47_-_Superboy_2011-_034-020.jpg.html

Which doesn't mean anything, and the narration even argues against the events "not happening" at the very end saying that "to argue against that, there are two bits of evidence... One... Jon really is gone. And two..."

"Kon really is back."

The narration isn't saying the event didn't happen. It's saying it did and argued for it by providing two bits of evidence.

Also, glad to see we will be having another run with Superboy. Superboy: Future's End sounds like it is going to be interesting.



The pocket universe which the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent created.



They didn't abhilegend is twisting and mutilating context in order to service his side of the debate. It's called using dishonest debating tactics.

Most commonly done in politics.



This event happened in reality it was not in Kon-El or Jon Kent's head. It was for real.I posted it pages ago. Now lets look at it again.

Superboy #33

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/PMCUX3r_zpsa6fb7861.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/DE7IFfK_zps63faa5e2.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/SDzbej7_zpsee782e46.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/5jCSMti_zps0213553b.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/P7zFnZZ_zps40f8a4b5.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/csbn5Ip_zps32fff24a.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/qA9rS9i_zps44b32b2f.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/q989I4F_zpsb4270081.jpg

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y457/Nikolas_Korkovilis/LrBefBf_zps28f3d78b.jpg

Where in this scene is it unclear what the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent does?

^I won't quote you because I don't want to repeat the scans and I am too lazy to edit your posts. I like our discussion because you are polite btw ^^.

So, the scans I posted, it says that everything happened in this pocket-universe or the Universe-bubbles. This indicates a special place, it had no effect on Kons friends at all, except the memory and "Kons return". I will give you my opinion on this, we will disagree and it would end in a circular debate, to avoid it I just share my point of view, like you do, neither one is more valid right now, only the future will tell who is "right" and who is "wrong".

What I see here are three possibilities.

1. This Paradox is Superboy returning and reforming from the dead, with the help of the memories of his friends. Like Dr. Manhatten reformed himself in Watchmen. Though Kon drags his friends, or their mind into his, where all the differen't possible characters, or possibilities how he could have developed, fight for kontrol, and in the end one wins, is reformed and we will see if it is the real good kon or an evil one.

2. There is a number of infinite timeline, next to the 52 universes, though the alternate realities wouldn't make sense but writers might ignore this. Anyway, Kon is in this pocket-universe or bubble universe, seeing all other possible Superboys for real and fighting them, in this place differen't rules exist, since it is an paradoxon, and Superboy is the key to it, he can kind of control it, bestow powers etc but once out of it, everything is gone, back to normal, like it never happened, because it only happened in the bubble-universe. That's why she isn't a GL anymore etc.

3. Your possibility, this bubble-universe was a full universe with our rules and the paradoxon didn't matter at all, had no influence on the rules of time and physics and Superboy did it on his own and got an upgrade, will have now the power to create Superheroes on whim and pocket universe in the main Universe.

I deem the 3rd one unlikely, but we will see.

BTW all of this reminded me of this

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/52086/1650703-alternate_supermen.jpg
And some alternate versions reminded me of this
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3031883-arena4p23.jpg
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120902162705/powerlisting/images/2/2d/Superman-army.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--bWHnnDOmN8/Tloumo89nDI/AAAAAAAAgM8/y4aCOoTTLlY/s400/reign312.jpg

This storyline was btw nothing new.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not if it is temporary. Its called a temporary amp. You don't see people arguing that Guardian amped Prime was SBP's default power, do you?

No, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't temporary or that either Kon-El or Jon Kent have this power on their own.

What I was arguing was that the combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is.



We're not talking about Kon-El or Jon Kent alone but them fused together here. I already clarified this.



No, we are not talking about Kon-El here. We are talking about the merged Kon-El and Jon Kent.



No, I was merely caught off by how stupid it sounded and it did sound so very stupid.

An entity can that change reality at its whims, can manhandle hoards of Superboys, create pocket universes is apparently weaker than Superman.

Are you loony?



Writer intention is everything, huh?

So, tell me if a writer told you that someone who murdered someone else in cold blood wasn't a murderer would you believe them? Say they write a character that does that and they do nothing to contradict it. They don't explain that it's a dream or anything. It really happened and the victim didn't deserve it.

Yet, by by the writer's word or claim the character is not a murderer. What then?



No, we argue what the characters can actually do and with what feats they have. Whatever claims a writer makes is about as solid as tapioca pudding.



Sure, you were being sarcastic. By the way I am Santa Claus, and I happen to be acquainted with the Easter Bunny too.



No, the writer can be wrong just like you or me. The are not absolute. We go by what we know for sure and what we see.

That is the only assured answer.



No, that was me being honest. I don't like you, and I don't like your fallacious debating tactics. You should try the whole honesty thing sometimes.



Yes, really. I will just assume that your eyesight is so terrible at this point that you can't see your own hypocrisy.



This is besides the fact they you are trying to change the topic of the conversation as we are on how powerful the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent is. You are just trying to switch goal posts over in order to drag the argument on.

I'll indulge you though.

Okay, let's see Kon destroyed the Star Chamber something H'el thought was impossible. The Star Chamber being able to contain/channel all the energy of the earth's sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field. Yet, it could not handle Kon's psionics. This was in Superman #17.

http://i.imgur.com/yh0GCRH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

Kon also destroyed the force-field around the Fortress of Solitude. Something no one else could do, and why Kon was vital for the Justice League. Why H'el also designed the shield especially for Kon. That was in Superboy #16.

http://i.imgur.com/6QmC9dm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/841hX6k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vOdSzq6.jpg

There's the fact Superboy could even surprise Superman with his strength, and toss him around in Superboy #15 after getting the El armor.

http://i.imgur.com/VPEl1YV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Nfg9z9F.jpg

Also, even as early on as Superboy #6 Kon was able to fight kryptonians like Kara Zor-El.

http://i.imgur.com/OpbUxHC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rfVvllM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j5cSgpT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mjVZXdf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EFq1vTa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TroN4RG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZqpbSbD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XvRNBoi.jpg

Note how Kon is able to hurt Kara, and how her punches are doing no visible damage. This is in spite of that fact that Kara was angry and intent on killing Kon because he was a clone. Kon ends the fight by incapacitating Kara with a blast of psionics.

Superboy is a threat to full-blooded kryptonians long before he even reaches the height of his power after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.



It's not a feat for either Kon-El or Jon Kent. It's a feat for the entity they fused together and became in Superboy #33. That's what we were talking about to begin with.



They mean nothing? Creating universes, creating pocket universes, altering reality and time-lines, and all that means nothing?



You can post them all day everyday but they will never actually be evidence without something concrete backing them.



The best feat of power Superman has now to my knowledge is moving that mothership with MM that was larger than the earth in Action Comics #34.



I think I just had an aneurysm induced by the sheer volume of your delirium.



There's no comment that exists which states that Superboy would grow to be limitless in both mind and body even though I posted it for you to see yourself?



Yes, that's exactly my point your "Superman is the strongest man on earth" is not any different. It's a phrase thrown around at a moment's notice and carelessly so with no actual consideration for the rest of the setting.



>twisting and mutilating context, and making up nonsense
>using claims instead of feats
>having double standards and cherry picking when your internal set of rules apply to a character or not

Abhilegend I want you to look into a mirror. You are CBR.



So what? They're just claims. Not even evidence.



You're missing the entire point of what I said. I was using that as an example of why you debating from broad statements is full of more holes than swiss cheese.



Yes, I have and more than once now senior excellente.



Who ended up altering times lines at a whim, and who can simply erase Superman out of existence by looking at him funny? The merged Kon-El/Jon Kent that's who. However, since you want to drag this into a Kon-El vs Kal-El fight as well fine then.

You really want to derail the topic.



Okay then, if you're so sure of Superman's standing and power why do you feel the need to post on KMC to validate your opinion literally at all?

If you're so completely sure of yourself why bother? You have reached the point of having the mentality of "I am right, and you are wrong, and I am not listening to you la la la la!"



I like your baseless claims supported by literally nothing but your own personal biases and butchered interpretations of what actually happened.



No, not the same phenomena. It was specified that H'el had developed chronal strands in Superman #25.

http://i.imgur.com/PBOzi8m.jpg

Chronal strands =/= generating tachyons.



Not chronal energy as I already clarified. It was tachyons that the merged entity of Kon-El and Jon Kent was naturally generating.

The merged entity simply wanted things to be a certain way and they became that. It searched for any potentially helpful alternate realities with its senses and fused them into Niti, Rose, Michael, Peter changing them whilst keeping their original personalities intact.



Don't tell me your parents let you out of the house without a chaperone to make sure you don't get run over by a car.

"combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is. "

Things like this make it hard for me to understand your point, as there is nothing they have done that puts them above Kal tbh. Trying to force it down as truth is just unnecessary.

Star Chamber, was a nice feat but Supergirl and WW worked on that too. Nothing a herald is not capable of tbh.

The fortress forcefield made him bleed, took him almost out. His powers are energybased, makes sense he has a easier time with the field, though impressive, not impressive enough in the herald league.

He surprised superman and that's it, one time and not again. This happened to Superman multiple times, to each herald or strongman in comic history. This is a non feat.

"Who ended up altering times lines at a whim, and who can simply erase Superman out of existence by looking at him funny"

I hope you are not serious. He never displayed this kind of power against a herald. And the pocket-universe thing is really open to interpretation.

Iskander, you forgot to mention that when Superboy destroyed the Field, he was weakened.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
^I won't quote you because I don't want to repeat the scans and I am too lazy to edit your posts. I like our discussion because you are polite btw ^^.

Alright.



Okay, let's rewind things here for a moment. Going back to Superboy #32 explaining how all of this happened.

These many, many Superboys all appeared the moment the future Jon Kent made contact with the present Jon Kent.

http://i.imgur.com/Q3d6eYw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RYr6uPU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ta7acSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wJP6pDf.jpg

This temporal paradox was the catalyst that created this new Superboy who is a fusion of future Jon Kent and Kon-El.

Superboy #33

http://imgur.com/a/QkFs7

This is an album of the entire issue, we see what the pocket dimension looks likes on the outside. It's explained what happened. Specifically, by Kon-El himself to Jon Kent. Who explains the universe kicked them out, so they created a new one.

This new singular Kon-El/Jon Kent created this place, dragged all the alternate versions of Superboy there as a result, and is locking out the rest of the Earth-2 universe with a large barrier.

The only ones trapped in a mind were both Kon-El and Jon Kent, who were inside this new entity. They took control and made order. Then present Jon Kent separated them.

Next issue in Superboy #34

http://imgur.com/a/sqjvz

It all really existed until future Jon Kent sacrificed himself to destroy present Jon Kent which destroyed the entire pocket dimension. As well as any of the changes it made.



Yes and no, because Jon Kent sacrificed himself to kill his present self by showing him into the barrier containing the pocket universe. This killed the both of them and with the "universe" gone all the changes disappeared. Peter, Michael, Rose, and Niti changed back to normal.

It did have an effect on them it's just that the destruction of the pocket universe removed the changes.



Now read everything I just posted as it contains important context regarding what I am talking about. Most of which clears up a lot of things.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
"combined Kon-El/Jon Kent is more powerful than Superman because he is. "

Things like this make it hard for me to understand your point, as there is nothing they have done that puts them above Kal tbh. Trying to force it down as truth is just unnecessary.

Superman doesn't have anything on the scale of casually warping reality or creating pocket universes, nor turning people into Green Lanterns at a whim.

I said that "because he is" because I have already established as such and posted scans. I would have said more than just that but there's the 10000 character limit.



http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

No, ultimately we see that it was Superboy who destroyed it in the second scan up in the left upper left corner. Then in the panel right next to it H'el is all "that's not possible" in response to that.

http://i.imgur.com/PXubZum.jpg

Then in the same issue we find out H'el planned for this ahead of time. That Superboy would destroy the Star Chamber so he could use Superboy's powers to fuel his ship.

As said by Superman and H'el admits that he had planned for it all long ahead of time.



It's impressive considering of the Justice League including Superman he was the necessary at the front-line assault on the Fortress of Solitude against the force-field.



So, we're going to pretend to didn't happen at all and say it was PIS? No, it's not PIS and the sudden boost in strength/speed is even explained by it being the power of Superboy's psionics condensed to his body.



Why would this merged Superboy not be able to simply alter Superman's time-line to one where had died or one where he had not even existed?



No, it's clear it happened and the changes were reversed once it was destroyed by Jon Kent.

Originally posted by carver9
Iskander, you forgot to mention that when Superboy destroyed the Field, he was weakened.

I would have but there's a 10000 character limit, and apparently the debate has gotten so out of hand we're typing this much now.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Alright.



Okay, let's rewind things here for a moment. Going back to Superboy #32 explaining how all of this happened.

These many, many Superboys all appeared the moment the future Jon Kent made contact with the present Jon Kent.

http://i.imgur.com/Q3d6eYw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RYr6uPU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ta7acSE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wJP6pDf.jpg

This temporal paradox was the catalyst that created this new Superboy who is a fusion of future Jon Kent and Kon-El.

Superboy #33

http://imgur.com/a/QkFs7

This is an album of the entire issue, we see what the pocket dimension looks likes on the outside. It's explained what happened. Specifically, by Kon-El himself to Jon Kent. Who explains the universe kicked them out, so they created a new one.

This new singular Kon-El/Jon Kent created this place, dragged all the alternate versions of Superboy there as a result, and is locking out the rest of the Earth-2 universe with a large barrier.

The only ones trapped in a mind were both Kon-El and Jon Kent, who were inside this new entity. They took control and made order. Then present Jon Kent separated them.

Next issue in Superboy #34

http://imgur.com/a/sqjvz

It all really existed until future Jon Kent sacrificed himself to destroy present Jon Kent which destroyed the entire pocket dimension. As well as any of the changes it made.



Yes and no, because Jon Kent sacrificed himself to kill his present self by showing him into the barrier containing the pocket universe. This killed the both of them and with the "universe" gone all the changes disappeared. Peter, Michael, Rose, and Niti changed back to normal.

It did have an effect on them it's just that the destruction of the pocket universe removed the changes.



Now read everything I just posted as it contains important context regarding what I am talking about. Most of which clears up a lot of things.

See your point is supporting my argument. This pocket-Dimension is nothing compared to a whole universe and it plays by special rules, means Kon is the key to this pocket-universe and as such can manipulate it. Something he has never done outside it because he can't alter the reality of the normal Universe. But maybe you can show me Kon manipulating the main Universe, time and space and create Green lanterns or other heroes out of nothing outside the bubble-universe?

The effect it had on them was only inside the bubble, or his head depends on how you interprete it. As said, outside of it, they were normal and I yet have to see Superboy create Green lanterns or other superbeings by whim outside a contained space that had no effects on reality.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Superman doesn't have anything on the scale of casually warping reality or creating pocket universes, nor turning people into Green Lanterns at a whim.

I said that "because he is" because I have already established as such and posted scans. I would have said more than just that but there's the 10000 character limit.



http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

No, ultimately we see that it was Superboy who destroyed it in the second scan up in the left upper left corner. Then in the panel right next to it H'el is all "that's not possible" in response to that.

http://i.imgur.com/PXubZum.jpg

Then in the same issue we find out H'el planned for this ahead of time. That Superboy would destroy the Star Chamber so he could use Superboy's powers to fuel his ship.

As said by Superman and H'el admits that he had planned for it all long ahead of time.



It's impressive considering of the Justice League including Superman he was the necessary at the front-line assault on the Fortress of Solitude against the force-field.



So, we're going to pretend to didn't happen at all and say it was PIS? No, it's not PIS and the sudden boost in strength/speed is even explained by it being the power of Superboy's psionics condensed to his body.



Why would this merged Superboy not be able to simply alter Superman's time-line to one where had died or one where he had not even existed?



No, it's clear it happened and the changes were reversed once it was destroyed by Jon Kent.



I would have but there's a 10000 character limit, and apparently the debate has gotten so out of hand we're typing this much now.

Kon doesn't have too, outside this pocket-universe. Except of this, it is nothing Superman would need to beat him. Resitance to reality warping is a thing, and the display of power even in the pocket universe from kon was rather small. Not enough to put him anywhere near the HH tier. His strength, speed and durability is far far below Supermans based on feats. His creation of a GL is nice, but irrelevant if he can't replicate such a feat outside the pocket-dimension.

First we see WW and Supergirl punching a hole into it, then Kon brings it down. Now, we know it is possible to bring it down and H'els words, I never though it is possible were just a lie, as you yourself showed because if he indeed though it impossible, he wouldn't have planned it all along . Means, this is also a non feat, as Superboy destroyed, with the help of WW and Supergirl, something made to be destroyed by him. Thanks.

I said it was impressive, nothing more. You need the right tool for the right situation, that doesn't mean said tool is more powerful than another.

I didn't say it's PIS, reread what I said. I said it is nothing special to throw another being, might it be the hulk or Superman, back, if you catch them by surprise and it happens very often in comics. It was not a fight and it wasn't like Superboy beat the shiet out of Superman. That doesn't mean he is stronger. Supermans strength exceedes Superboys strength by far.

Ok, show me Superboy altering the timeline on this scale outside the pocket-dimension, than you have a point. H'el wasn't even able to do it and he needed a lot of effort and planning to jump inbetween the time.

It happened in this pocket-dimension, and only there, if it was real or just in the head of Superboy is yet to be seen.

I told you before, that this is a circular argument, as your mind is set on the premise, Superboy is more powerful than Superman. this is btw the agenda I noticed in the beginning, no offense.

Believe what you want, but don't expect me or others to follow your line of reasoning if it contradicts what I consider common sense and a more logical interpretation of the bubble-universe "feat".

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
See your point is supporting my argument. This pocket-Dimension is nothing compared to a whole universe and it plays by special rules, means Kon is the key to this pocket-universe and as such can manipulate it. Something he has never done outside it because he can't alter the reality of the normal Universe. But maybe you can show me Kon manipulating the main Universe, time and space and create Green lanterns or other heroes out of nothing outside the bubble-universe?

It doesn't need to manipulate anything outside of it. Also, we're not talking about Kon here but rather the fused Kon-El/Jon Kent.

It can simply create the pocket universe whenever it wants. Just like with what happened in #32 and in #33 Kon-El clarifies that they made it.



No, not in their head.

The head part where Kon-El and Jon Kent try to take control of their new body is completely different than what happens outside of their actual body. What we see in the pocket universe doesn't happen inside their head. We even see it exist from the POV of some people who are not even inside of it in Superboy #33.

http://i.imgur.com/mC2K16V.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0MClI9O.jpg

These guys remember?



Rose, Michael, Peter, and Niti only changed back once the pocket universe was destroyed not when they left it.



The point this Kon-El/Jon Kent can creature this space whenever it wanted and did so when they universe "kicked them out" there's nothing stopping it from doing so again if it were to fight Superman.



Okay then, post me a scene where Superman is able to resist being transformed into an alternate version of himself from another time-line.

If you're right it should exist. If you're wrong it shouldn't.



What feats does this Hector Hammond even have to compare to this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity?



Based on feats, kryptonians like Supergirl can't do anything to actually hurt Kon-El when he was just starting to understand his powers let alone this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity who is far more powerful than even Kon-El at his strongest after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.



Why does it need to when it can just create the pocket universe whenever it wants, and trap Superman in there at its leisure?



No, first we see Kon-El blast it then Supergirl and Wonder Woman join in. Then finally Kon-El destroys it.

http://i.imgur.com/yh0GCRH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

Here it is again.



No, H'el never planned for it to be possible to be brought down what he planned was for Superboy to try to do so and fuel his ship. The fact it was destroyed was something he didn't expect. That's why he was surprised.

Also, the fact that H'el required Superboy to fuel it because he himself couldn't doesn't light up any alarms in your head? H'el needed Superboy because he wasn't powerful to fuel the ship. Superboy was.



A non-feat? How is it a non-feat when H'el explicitly planned all of this just so he could get a hold of Superboy's powers to fuel his ship?

This also doesn't change the fact that Star Chamber was able to contain/channel all of the energy of the sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.

This is also explicit. Superman #17.

http://i.imgur.com/Id8oRHT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TfIpi2H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r8fwAc7.jpg

The factors necessary for H'el to fuel his ship.

1) the Sun's energy

2) the solar systems electromagnetic field

3) Kon-El's power



No, what you need to do to overload something that was made to contain the power of the sun and the power of the entire solar system's electromagnetic field is someone or something with even more power.

Superboy's psionics are above what energy it could contain from the earth's sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.



Strength maybe but Superboy can easily mitigate that with his TK as he can use it to amplfy his strength.

Considering that Superboy's TK is powerful enough to destroy the Star Chamber, plow a giant hole all the way down the earth's molten core, easily incapacitate kryptonians like Supergirl even before numerous power-ups and upgrades, and even effect temporal anomalies I think it evens out.



H'el wasn't even as powerful as the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity. H'el was just time-traveling and existing in a time loop.

Also, as clarified the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity could simply just create the pocket universe whenever it wants like when it was kicked out of the universe.



I literally posted the entire issue for you and you are still saying it might be in Kon-El/Jon Kent's mind even though we clearly see that it's not?

What scan in specific is actually making you draw into this conclusion now?



You know what agenda I am noticing at this very moment? You can't handle the fact that anything might be more powerful than Superman so you are skewing context in order to get what you want. I have been polite, I have been reasonable, and I have posted scans.

Now you're resorting to ad hominems and claiming I have a conspiracy going on?

You know I would expect dishonest debate tactics out of abhilegend but I thought you were better than that. Guess I was wrong.



No, you do not get to pretend the your misinterpretation is correct when I have explicitly proven you wrong several times over and went so far as to post the entire issue to correct you. I have even proven you wrong by providing the correct interpretation of the scans you misinterpreted earlier.

You can believe what you want but your personal opinion at this very moment is completely and utterly wrong. You don't get to pretend that it's not. More importantly, you don't get to plug your ears and point fingers. When all you have to do is just correct your mistakes.

In the lower left it's.........

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120902162705/powerlisting/images/2/2d/Superman-army.jpg

SUNGOD!!!

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120902162705/powerlisting/images/2/2d/Superman-army.jpg

I'm calling the legal department at DC IMMEDIATELY!

Originally posted by Iskandar
It doesn't need to manipulate anything outside of it. Also, we're not talking about Kon here but rather the fused Kon-El/Jon Kent.

It can simply create the pocket universe whenever it wants. Just like with what happened in #32 and in #33 Kon-El clarifies that they made it.



No, not in their head.

The head part where Kon-El and Jon Kent try to take control of their new body is completely different than what happens outside of their actual body. What we see in the pocket universe doesn't happen inside their head. We even see it exist from the POV of some people who are not even inside of it in Superboy #33.

http://i.imgur.com/mC2K16V.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0MClI9O.jpg

These guys remember?



Rose, Michael, Peter, and Niti only changed back once the pocket universe was destroyed not when they left it.



The point this Kon-El/Jon Kent can creature this space whenever it wanted and did so when they universe "kicked them out" there's nothing stopping it from doing so again if it were to fight Superman.



Okay then, post me a scene where Superman is able to resist being transformed into an alternate version of himself from another time-line.

If you're right it should exist. If you're wrong it shouldn't.



What feats does this Hector Hammond even have to compare to this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity?



Based on feats, kryptonians like Supergirl can't do anything to actually hurt Kon-El when he was just starting to understand his powers let alone this Kon-El/Jon Kent entity who is far more powerful than even Kon-El at his strongest after absorbing Jon Kent's memories.



Why does it need to when it can just create the pocket universe whenever it wants, and trap Superman in there at its leisure?



No, first we see Kon-El blast it then Supergirl and Wonder Woman join in. Then finally Kon-El destroys it.

http://i.imgur.com/yh0GCRH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cuH0FPo.jpg

Here it is again.



No, H'el never planned for it to be possible to be brought down what he planned was for Superboy to try to do so and fuel his ship. The fact it was destroyed was something he didn't expect. That's why he was surprised.

Also, the fact that H'el required Superboy to fuel it because he himself couldn't doesn't light up any alarms in your head? H'el needed Superboy because he wasn't powerful to fuel the ship. Superboy was.



A non-feat? How is it a non-feat when H'el explicitly planned all of this just so he could get a hold of Superboy's powers to fuel his ship?

This also doesn't change the fact that Star Chamber was able to contain/channel all of the energy of the sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.

This is also explicit. Superman #17.

http://i.imgur.com/Id8oRHT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TfIpi2H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r8fwAc7.jpg

The factors necessary for H'el to fuel his ship.

1) the Sun's energy

2) the solar systems electromagnetic field

3) Kon-El's power



No, what you need to do to overload something that was made to contain the power of the sun and the power of the entire solar system's electromagnetic field is someone or something with even more power.

Superboy's psionics are above what energy it could contain from the earth's sun and the solar system's electromagnetic field.



Strength maybe but Superboy can easily mitigate that with his TK as he can use it to amplfy his strength.

Considering that Superboy's TK is powerful enough to destroy the Star Chamber, plow a giant hole all the way down the earth's molten core, easily incapacitate kryptonians like Supergirl even before numerous power-ups and upgrades, and even effect temporal anomalies I think it evens out.



H'el wasn't even as powerful as the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity. H'el was just time-traveling and existing in a time loop.

Also, as clarified the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity could simply just create the pocket universe whenever it wants like when it was kicked out of the universe.



I literally posted the entire issue for you and you are still saying it might be in Kon-El/Jon Kent's mind even though we clearly see that it's not?

What scan in specific is actually making you draw into this conclusion now?



You know what agenda I am noticing at this very moment? You can't handle the fact that anything might be more powerful than Superman so you are skewing context in order to get what you want. I have been polite, I have been reasonable, and I have posted scans.

Now you're resorting to ad hominems and claiming I have a conspiracy going on?

You know I would expect dishonest debate tactics out of abhilegend but I thought you were better than that. Guess I was wrong.



No, you do not get to pretend the your misinterpretation is correct when I have explicitly proven you wrong several times over and went so far as to post the entire issue to correct you. I have even proven you wrong by providing the correct interpretation of the scans you misinterpreted earlier.

You can believe what you want but your personal opinion at this very moment is completely and utterly wrong. You don't get to pretend that it's not. More importantly, you don't get to plug your ears and point fingers. When all you have to do is just correct your mistakes.

As said I disagree, all the feats you want to be seen as awesome happened in the pocket-dimension, for the last time, the rules there are not the same as the rules of the main universe for all we know. It might be even all in Kons head. We will see.


You are making this feat bigger than it is, Superboy is no abstract being nor a skyfather, don't try to push him there.

That is you wishful thinking nothing more tbh. You can try and make up scenarios but they will only work if we see it done to someone like Superman, MM etc. This is as said a nice feat, but the scale is small, as small as a pocket.

I don't need to prove a negative.

Superman says it, you planned all of this along. So yes, he played the game and wanted the events to happen the way it happend.

Sure if I H'el needed energy, why waste his own, and obviously he needed different forms of them. So he can safe his because he would need them. Makes sense doesn't it? At least we agree that WW and Supergirl had their hands in the destruction too, as seen in the scans.
So you say it yourself, it can contain the energy which is completly different from being destroyed by less. Kon has not more power than the sun. Take a nuclear reactor, holds a sh1tload of energy, still you need less than this to break it.

Now you would just need to prove he can amp his strength to benchpress earthweight for 5 days or to stop a ship of brainiacs size. I will wait ^^.

He can and has been hurt by less btw, supergirl is not Superman.

What scans, you said it yourself, they fight for the control of the body.

I am still polite to you and i still disagree, my interpretation differes. And yes, I noticed this agenda as soon as you started posting in superboy related threads. You like him, that's ok.

there are beings more powerful than Superman, take Darkseid for example. Superboy is not among them though and it's very doubtful he will be.

You should learn one thing. You once said that my opinion is my opinion and I shouldn't pretend it is the truth, follow your own adivce, we disagree, that is nothing bad. Your interpretation is in my opinion wrong, yours differ, well that's ok but don't pretend you know it better, you don't and only future comics will show it.
You behave like Enzeru right now btw. I would change this.

So Superboy is a Mid Herald, now maybe even a High Herald, he needs more fights and more feats, he is no trans, skyfather or abstract, don't try to make him into one. Thanks.

Yeah no, not going to do this dance again since you're too stubborn to concede when you should and I already wasted nearly two days dissecting posts.

Also, I never said Kon-El was trans or skyfather. This whole time the only one I claimed that could be above herald was the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent. That's different than just Kon-El. The Star Chamber feat while impressive is not something that would put Kon-El above any herald.

If you're still going to pretend that Superboy #32~34 is all in the mind when we know with 100% certainty that it wasn't. Otherwise, Kon-El wouldn't have actually come back and he would still be a herald for the Oracle then I honestly have no idea what you're doing. Hard headed is not a strong enough word for this.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Yeah no, not going to do this dance again since you're too stubborn to concede when you should and I already wasted nearly two days dissecting posts.

Also, I never said Kon-El was trans or skyfather. This whole time the only one I claimed that could be above herald was the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent. That's different than just Kon-El. The Star Chamber feat while impressive is not something that would put Kon-El above any herald.

If you're still going to pretend that Superboy #32~34 is all in the mind when we know with 100% certainty that it wasn't. Otherwise, Kon-El wouldn't have actually come back and he would still be a herald for the Oracle then I honestly have no idea what you're doing. Hard headed is not a strong enough word for this.

Why should I. Superboy has done nothing that was at the level you want him to be. He has no feats against opponents, nothin to suggest he can do what you think.

But as said, agree to disagree.

I am rather inclined to wait and see what happens with Superboy before making bold claims. It happened in his mind and in the pocket-dimension, how this correlates, well we will see.
But the feats in this event are not applicable to the normal universe, first he has to show that he can do it outside this pocket-dimension.

So chill, accept people who disagree with you and see what happens .

Unless we suddenly find out in Superboy: Future's End Kon-El didn't actually come back, and Jon didn't actually sacrifice himself to defeat himself (damn it, time-travel) destroying the pocket dimension in the process; I don't comprehend how your theory could hold any water at all.

Superboy #33 differentiates when Kon-El and Jon Kent are in their mind, and when they are not kicking arse and changing their friends into alternate versions of themselves. It's all one big white space when it's in their mind.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Unless we suddenly find out in Superboy: Future's End Kon-El didn't actually come back, and Jon didn't actually sacrifice himself to defeat himself (damn it, time-travel) destroying the pocket dimension in the process; I don't comprehend how your theory could hold any water at all.

Superboy #33 differentiates when Kon-El and Jon Kent are in their mind, and when they are not kicking arse and changing their friends into alternate versions of themselves. It's all one big white space when it's in their mind.

And most important of all, we will see how powerful Superboy really is, with real feats in a complete universe, not some weak sauce pocket-dimension and a weak mind.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Unless we suddenly find out in Superboy: Future's End Kon-El didn't actually come back, and Jon didn't actually sacrifice himself to defeat himself (damn it, time-travel) destroying the pocket dimension in the process; I don't comprehend how your theory could hold any water at all.

Superboy #33 differentiates when Kon-El and Jon Kent are in their mind, and when they are not kicking arse and changing their friends into alternate versions of themselves. It's all one big white space when it's in their mind.



Good posts overall. Pretty sure you've convinced a lot of peeps.

Originally posted by carver9


Good posts overall. Pretty sure you've convinced a lot of peeps.

Take you and your split personalities somewhere else, cheerleader uhuh

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You posted evidence of what?

YOUR IDIOCY?

Lies.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
And most important of all, we will see how powerful Superboy really is, with real feats in a complete universe, not some weak sauce pocket-dimension and a weak mind.

I wouldn't call it "weak sauce" considering that the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent's pocket universe they created was powerful enough to drag countless different Superboys into it from other universes, and in it the entity was shown basically to be a reality warper able to alter a person's history to make them into whatever it wanted.

It also shows good range and that it basically could connect to anywhere it needed to under the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity's duress.

Originally posted by Iskandar
I wouldn't call it "weak sauce" considering that the merged Kon-El/Jon Kent's pocket universe they created was powerful enough to drag countless different Superboys into it from other universes, and in it the entity was shown basically to be a reality warper able to alter a person's history to make them into whatever it wanted.

It also shows good range and that it basically could connect to anywhere it needed to under the Kon-El/Jon Kent entity's duress.

If you compare it to Zero Hour, you will understand me better ^^.

Originally posted by Iskandar
No, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't temporary or that either Kon-El or Jon Kent have this power on their own. So, there you have it. Its an outside power up and isn't considered a normal powers of a character.

Not really.



They were just fused in mind. Its not their powers were stacked or universe creating power ups.



Repeating yourself again? Seems like a pattern here.



Coming from you? Not really surprised.

Of course. When the said pocket universe isn't created by the entity, only feat worth mentioning. And that pocket universe was just around a NOWHERE facility. It wasn't even that big.


You are?



Yup. In comics its everything.

In his created reality, it is. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't changes the work of that writer.

In his work, it isn't. In real world he is.



You've got that backward kid.



Nice to meet you santa.



In a world created by the writer, he is the absolute. He creates the rules, not you. If he says a cow can fly, then you have to belive it.

Nope.



I don't give a damn about what you think or like. How's that about honesty?



No really? You seem pretty angry kid.



Not really. The merged Superboy was powerful enough to beat some random Superboys. That's it. The universe creating was due to a time paradox. You know who else created new timelines each time he traveled in time? H'el.

http://i.imgur.com/n2YPxb6.jpg

"created an alternate reality". I'm pretty sure H'el wasn't a universal being.

He destroyed the chamber, has nothing to do with how powerful the energy inside was.

Because he was the only one who had the power set to disrupt the force field. Its like saying Invisible Woman is more powerful than Hulk because she can make force field and he can't.

You mean where Superman thought he was powerless and was caught by surprise? Yeah, superman can get punched and get tossed around if caught by surprise.

Supergirl is pretty much worthless now.

Yeah, she is worthless alright. A weaker clone of superman almost killed her.

Superman isn't an ordinary kryptonian. But hey, let's see their performances against H'el. I see Superboy getting wrecked along with Teen Titans and then Superman singlehandedly bringing H'el to his knees.



No, its not a feat of the entity either. When they combined as a superboy a temporal wave craeted that pocket universe.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/120679/4037353-2014-08-13+07-41-47+-+superboy+%282011-%29+034-007.jpg


Oh and Jon Lane Kent destroyed that pocket universe sorrounding NOWHERE facility.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/4037411-2014-08-13+07-41-47+-+superboy+%282011-%29+034-019.jpg


Yeah, they mean nothing actually in terms of actual power.



Of course they would be evidence. Only you can rest in denial.



And that's better than anything Superboy has done. Creating a pocket universe due to temporal physics isn't a feat.



Sure you did.



Yes, it talks about a possibility, a future which may or may not be possible.



Oh really? That's why he was the only one who could actually beat Doomsday?

So a fat load of nothing.



Again, nothing.



Not superboy.

I am just posting what's in the comics, my dear boy. Not making things up like you.



Lulz.



He was beaten by Superman in the same comic where he was creating alternate realities.

He was creating alternate realities. Didn't make him any more powerful.



Really? Are you going to argue this that way?

Because of temporal hijincks. Jon Lane Kent destroyed all that with his sacrifice. Guess Jon Lane Kent>Superboy after all.



I drive my own car boy. But you can rant when somebody calls you on your BS, I'll give you that.

H'el was creating alternate realities by time-traveling.

The Kon-El/Jon Kent being was doing so not by time-travel. We did not see time-travel. We did not see that it had to time-travel. What we know that when the universe tried to erase Jon Kent in order to fix the temporal paradox of his existence. It created a pocket universe, sealed the rest of Earth-2 off away from it, and that it could drag Superboys from other universes into it. That it could also scan a person's possible alternate iterations and make them real on a whim.

Where do we see the Kon-El/Jon Kent creature time-travel, like at all?

Also, wow.

You decided after three days to suddenly respond.

Originally posted by Iskandar
Also, wow.

You decided after three days to suddenly respond.

This needs an update.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
This needs closed. Agreed.

Originally posted by Badabing
Agreed.

GODZILLA and JURASSIC PARK have made your scaled mouth reckless!

Don't worry though, you will be humbled!

You'd be wise to submit to my rule and become a Badabingite.

Originally posted by Badabing
You'd be wise to submit to my rule and become a Badabingite.

The Ruler of The House of El submits to no one!

I'll brand our symbol into one of your brothers and keep them as a pet!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
The Ruler of The House of El submits to no one!

I'll brand our symbol into one of your brothers and keep them as a pet! Ruler of The House of El...I wasn't talking to Time.

How far should Superman move up now?