Runner/Silver Surfer vs Zoom/Flash

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Insane Titan
Hunter and Wally

No pis/cis

Who wins

DarkSaint85
DROP THE MULTIVERSE!!!!

Insane Titan
Open a black hole to the anus

DarkSaint85
That explains why I get so butthurt.

CadenceV2
The cosmic Duo easy.

Insane Titan
Originally posted by CadenceV2
The cosmic Duo easy. easily.

Care to explain.

Philosophía
What is Surfer even doing here?
Team 2 wins.

TheLordofMurder
Lets see...

With team speedforce, at best, you have a Mid Herald in Wally and a High Herald with Hunter (as per the tierings here at KMC)...

With team cosmic, you have a High Herald in Surfer and a Mid to High Trans with Runner...

Runner solos...

CadenceV2
Originally posted by Insane Titan
easily.

Care to explain.

both Characters are Light Speed.

Both Characters can negate speed steal with Cosmic Energy generating.

Surfer's Cosmic Awareness can allow him to know what the Speedsters can do and not do.

both characters have super strength and durability base line . Add in the further amp from Lightspeed movement makes them way more powerful than Flash or Zoom can hope to be.

Surfer can drain any form Form energy as well matter manipulation which neither DC speedster can counter.

Runner has a Aura that makes you docile which will be a great boon of any initial attack on him.

Surfer and Runner have beaten far better than these Speedsters have from what I seen on the forums.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by CadenceV2
both Characters are Light Speed.

Both Characters can negate speed steal with Cosmic Energy generating.

both characters have super strength and durability base line . Add in the further amp from Lightspeed movement makes them way more powerful than Flash or Zoom can hope to be.

Surfer can drain any form Form energy as well matter manipulation which neither DC speedster can counter.

Runner has a Aura that makes you docile which will be a great boon of any initial attack on him.

Surfer and Runner have beaten far better than these Speedsters have from what I seen on the forums.

thumb up

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Lets see...

With team speedforce, at best, you have a Mid Herald in Wally and a High Herald with Hunter (as per the tierings here at KMC)...

With team cosmic, you have a High Herald in Surfer and a Mid to High Trans with Runner...

Runner solos... The tiers are used as guides of general power, not who wins matchups.

Just because somebody is in a higher tier doesn't mean they'd beat anybody in a lower one.

CadenceV2

TheLordofMurder

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Agreed, but here you have characters with some similarities power wise, but one of them is a full tier beyond the field, with transcendant feats to back it up...

Thanos had to resort to the Time Gem to defeat Runner; Surfers attacks had no effect on Runner...

You really think these two are comparable? The only similarity is that there are 3 characters that are very fast and then there's Surfer. The reason they're fast is different, the applications of their speed are different, and the abilities besides the speed are different.

Wally is ridiculously faster in terms of combat speed than anybody on team 1. In a CIS/PIS-less environment he solos this. Then there's Zoom, who makes Wally look like a drunk snail.

TheLordofMurder

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And both have to subject themselves to Runners aura to attack him...

I'm not even sure they could hurt Runner, let alone beat him... Considering the speeds involved, the fight would most definitely take place in less than microsecond.

Tell me, are there any feats of Runner's aura going full effect within that timeframe?

Wally can and will KO Runner. To argue otherwise is asinine.

CadenceV2
To say Wally can KO runner at all is asinine too. He is durability wise on. Thanos level, and has Lightspeed travel as well. In most feats with. Wally he cannot go full Lightspeed without run ing up to that speed. So Runner's Aura should keep il fine in he initial attacks.

Philosophía
Originally posted by CadenceV2
durability wise on. Thanos level I'd really like you to prove that.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Wally he cannot go full Lightspeed without run ing up to that speed. Yes. So? It's common sense that a stationary body has to accelerate to reach a certain speed, and Wally is no exception.
The problem is Wally can do that before either one on team 2 can blink.

TheLordofMurder

TheLordofMurder
Well, I have Surfer attacking Runner and Runner coming through it with a smile on his face:

CadenceV2

zopzop
Any person on T1 can solo T2.

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Runners aura immediately took effect on Surfer; the exact time frame was never specified however... Runner's aura took effect on Surfer after a whole page of non-combat dialogue. He doesn't have that time here. Also, right after it took effect - Surfer had no problem fighting him. He didn't stop and say "hit me, Runner". So your non-applicable point would be moot, either way.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And why is it asinine to question wether they could harm Runner or not? Because you're applying no-limits fallacy to Runner, based on nothing. Flash can hit with power to one-shot top tiers.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Surfers attacks no effect on Runner; how would you rate Surfers attack power compared to Flash and Zoom? At best (and I honestly believe that they have less attack power than Surfer) equal.. A random energy blast from Surfer? You're damn right that Wally hits harder at his best. Not only that, but Surfer was blatantly stated to be weakened the next issue.

Philosophía
Originally posted by CadenceV2
The only beings above Heralds are Thanos and Skyfather level beings. So you're an idiot.

Glad we clarified that.

Move along.

TheLordofMurder

TheLordofMurder
@Philosophia

And just to add on the Champions claim, it undoubtably stemmed from the fact that Surfer got the best of him two issue ago; Surfer didnt fight Runner until a full issue later, and there was no mention or nothing to indicate that Surfer was weakened...

And to restate, Surfer never said anything about being weakened when the Runner beat him...

TheLordofMurder
Oh and here the exact scan where Runners aura 1st takes effect on Surfer:

CadenceV2

TheLordofMurder
@Philosophia

One more point on Runners aura, Surfer had to make a conscious effort to fight Runner because of Runners aura (Surfer still liked him even after being attacked by him) and Surfer has excellent TP resistance...

What are Wally and Hunters feats of TP resistance?

They'd better be good or the Runner is going to end them both in a hurry...

Philosophía
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
1st thing, it didnt take that long for Runners aura to take hold on Surfer; Surfer had the thought bubble about feeling calm 2 panels after Runner shows up... That's far longer than he has in this match. Ridiculously so. You can't seem to grasp how short a non-CIS/PIS fight is against Flash/Zoom. On the orders of nanoseconds - while Surfer and Runner talked for at least a few seconds before the aura took effect.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
my questioning wether or not team speedforce could harm Runner or not is not based on "nothing." Its based on a character who some feel is the top dog of the Herald Tier being unable to harm Runner...
The Surfer hit him only once. Runner shrugged it off, sure - but from there, to saying that a simple blast from Surfer is the be-all end-all of durability feats - is simply asinine. You're applying a ridiculous no-limits fallacy. Flash's many IMPs (which have one-shot Superman level opponents) will most certainly knock Runner TFO, unless you have durability feats to contest that.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Philosophia

And just to add on the Champions claim, it undoubtably stemmed from the fact that Surfer got the best of him two issue ago; Surfer didnt fight Runner until a full issue later, and there was no mention or nothing to indicate that Surfer was weakened...

And to restate, Surfer never said anything about being weakened when the Runner beat him... Even so, it casts doubt on Surfer's capabilities being full-on in that fight. There's at least two variables to take into effect - the aforementioned scene where it is mentioned Korvac and Champion weakened him, aswell as Runner playing with his emotions.

Galan007

Philosophía
I was being conservative. Maybe Flash and Zoom want to have a coffee mid-battle. And sleep. And read a book. Maybe visit a foreign country. Become monks. Learn the language. Become best friends. Come back..

...and still have time to do that a dozen times over.

Galan007
thumb up

hell, jay garrick(the shittiest/slowest member of the flash family) said it best:
http://i.imgur.com/slnnPgMl.jpg

"The move buys me seconds. In my world, an eternity."

Golgo13
thumb up

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Galan007
the flash family can perceive and react on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis:
http://i.imgur.com/M5bXEy6.png

http://i.imgur.com/sKcPEkf.jpg

"For context, an attosecond is to a second what a second is to about 31.71 billion years, or more than twice the age of the universe."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attosecond



If we're to take the Attosecond thing seriously then Flash is easily well above any High Herald toe to toe.

But it's hard to do that with his serious lack of "High Herald Stomping" feats.

What's more believable given actual combat feats is something like 1000 Imps in a second. Or Heck maybe a split second. But since he's never even done that (as far as I'm aware), there's no way to tell how tired he'd be after such a powerful attack combo, (however quickly it'd be done).

Anyway however fast and powerful he is toe to toe makes little difference against a guy like Surfer whose continuously floating around impossible for Flash to even reach. And who can just blow up the planet Flash is on if need be.

h1a8
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Hunter and Wally

No pis/cis

Who wins Team 2 wins with ease. Far too fast and speed steal wouldn't be fair.

h1a8
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If we're to take the Attosecond thing seriously then Flash is easily well above any High Herald toe to toe.

But it's hard to do that with his serious lack of "High Herald Stomping" feats.

What's more believable given actual combat feats is something like 1000 Imps in a second. Or Heck maybe a split second. But since he's never even done that (as far as I'm aware), there's no way to tell how tired he'd be after such a powerful attack combo, (however quickly it'd be done).

Anyway however fast and powerful he is toe to toe makes little difference against a guy like Surfer whose continuously floating around impossible for Flash to even reach. And who can just blow up the planet Flash is on if need be.

I don't know how but Flash can run in the air, in space, etc. He really doesn't even need flight. Also, Flash would have closed the distance or stole Surfer's speed in the first attosecond. Thus Surfer wouldn't even get a chance to fly out of reach.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Galan007
the flash family can perceive and react on an attosecond-by-attosecond basis:
http://i.imgur.com/M5bXEy6.png

http://i.imgur.com/sKcPEkf.jpg

"For context, an attosecond is to a second what a second is to about 31.71 billion years, or more than twice the age of the universe."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attosecond

so yeah, i understand why it may be difficult for some people to grasp such miniscule amounts of time. nevertheless, speed is what flash does.

anywho, IF the naysayers manage to comprehend the above, they are finally ready to begin comprehending zoom--who is so far beyond ANY member of the flash family, that they appear laughably slow in comparison. smile

Hold that bad thought.

Imagine how fast Wally is, as per Galan's scan.

Here he is, AMPING himself just to TRY and get to Zoom's level:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zoomback10.jpg

And then, does THIS to the amped Wally:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zoomback15.jpg

He LEAVES the battlefield, runs to the city, checks up on Linda, all before an AMPED Wally can even perceive that he's gone.

DarkSaint85
Also, look at how Zoom treats his friends.

That friendly aura of the Runner will sure come in handy...

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by h1a8
I don't know how but Flash can run in the air, in space, etc. He really doesn't even need flight.

Got scans of him running in Space?


Originally posted by h1a8
Also, Flash would have closed the distance or stole Surfer's speed in the first attosecond. Thus Surfer wouldn't even get a chance to fly out of reach.

Doubt it.

Galan007
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Got scans of him running in Space? see his race against krakkl. also against black flash. smile

TheLordofMurder
So let me get this straight, the members of team speedforce have a history of FAILING to put down sub-High Herald level characters, but we are to believe that they can easily put down one of the stronger Trans Tier characters thats atleast as fast, if not faster, (and definitely more durable) than those they failed to put down!??

No way...

You guys argument is fundamentally flawed...

Runner solos...

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
see his race against krakkl. also against black flash. smile

Barry did it too, Pre-Crisis.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3876557

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3876558

Team 2.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by h1a8
Team 2 wins with ease. Far too fast and speed steal wouldn't be fair.

Runner is linked to the Power Primordial; his stamina is limitless...

They could steal all they want, Runner can just instantly replenish himself at will...

Galan007
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, look at how Zoom treats his friends.

That friendly aura of the Runner will sure come in handy... thumb up

how about attosecond-level speed/perceptions/reactions coupled with the ability to calculate an infinite number of possibilities, thereby instantly allowing flash to know every possible way to beat his opponent(s)?
http://i.imgur.com/b279Mx5.jpg


the problem here is that some people can't(or maybe they just don't want to) grasp what "no PIS/CIS" means for a speedster like flash--nevermind zoom. under those stips they become christ-like.
herbhappy

TheLordofMurder
Well, we know that Runner wss fast enough to evade Thanos (while Surfer is routinely tagged by him)...

We know Runner was so fast that Surfer (despite his excellent cosmic awareness) couldnt detect Runners approach...

Runner lacks the volume of showings team speedforce possess, so we know less about his limits that we do teamspeed forces...

We really dont know what time frame Runner is capable of acting on other than him being able to move FTL...

I will say this, Wally and Zoom tier Herald and Runner tiers Trans for a reason...

Its been shown and implied that Runner is a Thanos level character...

I cant believe a Thanos level superspeedster to be inferior to Herald level superspeedsters...

I firmly believe Runner beats them...

tkitna
Good lord, what has happened to this forum? Now we have a couple of Flash characters beating beings like the Surfer and the Runner? When will this wanking stop?

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

how about attosecond-level speed/perceptions/reactions coupled with the ability to calculate an infinite number of possibilities, thereby instantly allowing flash to know every possible way to beat his opponent(s)?
http://i.imgur.com/b279Mx5.jpg


the problem here is that some people can't(or maybe they just don't want to) grasp what "no PIS/CIS" means for a speedster like flash--nevermind zoom. under those stips they become christ-like.
herbhappy

And that's watered down Barry.

Inhuman
Originally posted by tkitna
Good lord, what has happened to this forum? Now we have a couple of Flash characters beating beings like the Surfer and the Runner? When will this wanking stop?

you better relax man, You're about to get the multiverse dropped on your arse in an attosecond.

tkitna
Originally posted by Inhuman
you better relax man, You're about to get the multiverse dropped on your arse in an attosecond.

Your right. I'm sorry.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well, we know that Runner wss fast enough to evade Thanos (while Surfer is routinely tagged by him)...

We know Runner was so fast that Surfer (despite his excellent cosmic awareness) couldnt detect Runners approach...

Runner lacks the volume of showings team speedforce possess, so we know less about his limits that we do teamspeed forces...

We really dont know what time frame Runner is capable of acting on other than him being able to move FTL...

I will say this, Wally and Zoom tier Herald and Runner tiers Trans for a reason...

Its been shown and implied that Runner is a Thanos level character...

I cant believe a Thanos level superspeedster to be inferior to Herald level superspeedsters...

I firmly believe Runner beats them... we definitely know runner's limits: sub-light speed.
http://i.imgur.com/zdfXUQp.jpg

evil face

Originally posted by tkitna
Good lord, what has happened to this forum? Now we have a couple of Flash characters beating beings like the Surfer and the Runner? When will this wanking stop? if serious, you legitimately don't know much about flash/zoom.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Galan007
we definitely know runner's limits: sub-light speed.
http://i.imgur.com/zdfXUQp.jpg

evil face

if serious, you legitimately don't know much about flash/zoom.

I argue that that was a PIS moment as we know Surfer moves FTL, but Runner outperformed him against Thanos as pertains speed.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Galan007
we definitely know runner's limits: sub-light speed.
http://i.imgur.com/zdfXUQp.jpg

evil face

if serious, you legitimately don't know much about flash/zoom.

laughing out loud Wow.

TheLordofMurder
Didnt Power Girl punk Zoom?

Lol...

Surfer solos if we are going there...

Golgo13
Scans?

TheLordofMurder
Go to the Superman vs Zoom thread...its all there.

Inhuman
In that "Gruenwald" Quasar run, Nothing went over light speed. There was some retarded physics/laws and such that he implemented.

Also road runner appearing in that story = credibility dropped.


also...

http://i.imgur.com/overGYA.jpg


smile

Golgo13
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Go to the Superman vs Zoom thread...its all there.

Don't see PG.

Golgo13
Originally posted by Inhuman
In that "Gruenwald" Quasar run, Nothing went over light speed. There was some retarded physics/laws and such that he implemented.

Also road runner appearing in that story = credibility dropped.


also...

http://i.imgur.com/overGYA.jpg


smile

thumb up Insane feat.

ToughMind
Runner/Silver Surfer

Inhuman
Originally posted by Golgo13
thumb up Insane feat.

agreed. "At a hairs breath short of lightspeed"

TheLordofMurder
@Galan

You should know better than to post garbage scans like that...

According to that scan, nothing is faster than light, but in the Marvel Universe, we know thats not true...dont we?

Golgo13
Originally posted by Inhuman
agreed. "At a hairs breath short of lightspeed"

That feat has been debated to death. It says under light speed, but it really wasn't.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Golgo13
Don't see PG.

You didnt look hard enough then; page 2, 5th link of Abhi's...

Golgo13
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You didnt look hard enough then; page 2, 5th link of Abhi's...

Isn't that Jessie Quick?

Galan007
lulz, i love throwing grenade-scans into a thread, and watching the subsequent chaos unfold. thumb up

as for the makkari race being "PIS", it's also worth noting that runner's most recent OHOTMU bio caps his speed at c as well:
http://i.imgur.com/XvOazfh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qpVNwnb.jpg


just throwing that out there. smile

Inhuman
Runner threads always boil down to him not having but like 3 or so appearances. So there isnt much as far as feats. Doesnt help that one of his feats was in that Quasar book.
Aslo its fun to post super high end feats and forget characters getting tagged all the time as well.

http://i.imgur.com/VMsNIWn.jpg



anyhow this is a not a CIS less battle.
as far as being CIS less, I have posted this before because for some reason people seen to loose their minds when they see "no CIS" in a thread topic

Originally posted by Badabing
CIS off does not mean debaters control a character as they would in a tournament. It also does not mean a character will fight out of character.

because if fanboyism goes unchecked then this happens...

Originally posted by great_dane
ya. wally west has never used his powers to their fullest, becasue if he were to move faster than the speedforce(which he can), the uninerse itself would inplode and not exist anymore. so even if eternity is the ebodyment of all living matter, and has been around since the beginning of time, the flash would be able to kamikaze him.

Galan007
you do realize that absolutely everything myself and DS have said regarding flash/zoom has been confirmed with on-panel evidence, right? nothing i/we have mentioned is conjecture.

for example:
-flash CAN react by the attosecond.
-flash CAN calculate infinite scenarios in order to find any possible weakness in his opponent, instantly.
-flash CAN run without a physical plane beneath his feet.
-flash CAN IMP/one-shot heralds.
-a zoom-blitz CAN harm heralds as well.
-zoom's speed DOES make flash's look utterly pathetic in comparison.
etc. etc. etc.


...but yeah, i guess 'fanboyism' is the best way to refer to fact-based arguments these days. /shrug

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Galan007
you do realize that absolutely everything myself and DS have said regarding flash/zoom has been confirmed with on-panel evidence, right? nothing i/we have mentioned is conjecture.

for example:
-flash CAN react by the attosecond.
-flash CAN calculate infinite scenarios in order to find any possible weakness in his opponent, instantly.
-flash CAN run without a physical plane beneath his feet.
-flash CAN IMP/one-shot heralds.
-a zoom-blitz CAN harm heralds as well.
-zoom's speed DOES make flash's look utterly pathetic in comparison.
etc. etc. etc.


...but yeah, i guess 'fanboyism' is the best way to refer to fact-based arguments these days. /shrug

Well, apparently others can react at this speed as well judging by the rate in which he gets tagged...

krisblaze
What do people not understand about the rules?

'Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.'

Board Walker
Flash has a feat where he evacuated a large city in china in less than a fraction of a second. The math was done for it since the
page provided the number of people he moved, the distance per person, and how long it took in total.

The result was that flash was moving at speeds far beyond multiplications of light speed, in fact its the fastest objective (non subjective) speed feat in comics i know.

Inhuman
The point is that This not a cis less fight. Flash gets tagged all the time and not by gods only.
Its not crazy to assume 2 cosmic characters like runner & surfer can tag flash is it? I mean they deal with light speeds and such all the time. And again flash gets tagged by less than light speed beings all the time.
If it was a CIS less fight then I can understand totally insane comments like Flash beating galactus or eternity. Those comments are still laughable but , ok I get it, some think very highly of the uber high feats of their favorite characters.

Still what I dont get is what is the point of Flash-natics making flash vs threads anyway besides enjoying comments like "flash wins in an attosedond" appearing in their screen.
If to some Flash and Zoom are untouchable and can basically do anything with the speed force, vibrating, time traveling etc then there is no point in even responding to flash threads.
And it has nothing to do with "just accept that they are that uber" thats how they are portrayed in comics because like I said they get tagged all the time IN comics. accept that as well.

Maybe im the crazy one because I think runner and surfer can tag flash and zoom. Pardon my wishful thinking, did not want to offend these deities with my lowballing.

krisblaze
^He still fights at full capacity.

He rarely fights at full capacity in the comics.

Doesn't matter if Deathstroke's tagged him once or twice in the comics, if he's fighting at full capacity deathstroke won't tag him.

Galan007
this IS a CIS-less fight, per the OP...

carver9
CIS is on. You can not ignore that. Flash fights in character. Ok, I take it back. If it's CIS less then the Flashes wins.

Inhuman
Originally posted by Galan007
this IS a CIS-less fight, per the OP...

Then i guess these 2 scrubs gets destroyed by flash/zoom before the fight even begins baka

krisblaze
People don't seem to understand that even in a CIS-less fight, the Flash would do his utmost to win, as they're fighting at full capacity per the forum rules :/

CIS off would just enable stuff like Flash smearing Surfer on the boardwalk like a bug...

Galan007
read the OP, guys:Originally posted by Insane Titan
Hunter and Wally

No pis/cis

Who wins

carver9
Originally posted by krisblaze
People don't seem to understand that even in a CIS-less fight, the Flash would do his utmost to win, as they're fighting at full capacity per the forum rules :/

CIS off would just enable stuff like Flash smearing Surfer on the boardwalk like a bug...

So you admit Surfer beats Superman 10/10?

zopzop
Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I take it back. If it's CIS less then the Flashes wins.
No.

JBL
Originally posted by Board Walker
Flash has a feat where he evacuated a large city in china in less than a fraction of a second. The math was done for it since the
page provided the number of people he moved, the distance per person, and how long it took in total.

The result was that flash was moving at speeds far beyond multiplications of light speed, in fact its the fastest objective (non subjective) speed feat in comics i know. Not trying to be a smart azz, but flash was moving just shy of the speed of light. No one can add or subtract from the on-panel speed that was given.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Galan007
read the OP, guys:

I've read it and I believe they still get destroyed...

Going by your own "evidence" Runners durability is maxed out (a 7 indicates completely invulnerable...doesnt it?); his durability and strength is even greater than his speed (which is BS; those cards are garbage, but whatever)...

They wont be able to harm him (looks like your card supports him having Thanos level durability at the bare minimum...eh?), will eventually fall to his aura since they are lacking in TP resistance feats, and he has planetary level matter manip...

Yeah, Runner crushes them...

Golgo13
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I've read it and I believe they still get destroyed...

Going by your own "evidence" Runners durability is maxed out (a 7 indicates completely invulnerable...doesnt it?); his durability and strength is even greater than his speed (which is BS; those cards are garbage, but whatever)...

They wont be able to harm him (looks like your card supports him having Thanos level durability at the bare minimum...eh?), will eventually fall to his aura since they are lacking in TP resistance feats, and he has planetary level matter manip...

Yeah, Runner crushes them...

Runner wouldn't have time to use those feats.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Golgo13
Runner wouldn't have time to use those feats.

Hes invulnerable to whatever they do to him...

He'll get them eventually...

tkitna
Are the Surfer and Runner powerful enough to blow up the planet?

They win

zopzop
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I've read it and I believe they still get destroyed...

Going by your own "evidence" Runners durability is maxed out (a 7 indicates completely invulnerable...doesnt it?); his durability and strength is even greater than his speed (which is BS; those cards are garbage, but whatever)...

They wont be able to harm him (looks like your card supports him having Thanos level durability at the bare minimum...eh?), will eventually fall to his aura since they are lacking in TP resistance feats, and he has planetary level matter manip...

Yeah, Runner crushes them...
ROFL! thumb up

h1a8
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Hes invulnerable to whatever they do to him...

He'll get them eventually... almost every high herald is invulnerable. We go by feats. Runner has no feats showing durability even beyond Thanos.

And you don't know what the IMP is capable of. Flash can hit runner with a universe of power if he wanted to. Or just steal their speed from the beginning. How would runner even win if his speed is stolen?

Golgo13
Originally posted by tkitna
Are the Surfer and Runner powerful enough to blow up the planet?

They win

Wally can run on air/space. Not a big deal. cool

krisblaze
Originally posted by Golgo13
Wally can run on air/space. Not a big deal. cool

If nothing else, the kid can run big grin

Laminator_X
While faster in a tactical sense (Runner travels FTL through space) I don't think that anybody on Team 2 can dish out sufficient punishment to put the Runner down. He hits harder and takes hits better than the Flash family, by far. Look st the end of his fight with the Surfer. He didn't win via his speed. He just shrugged off SS's hits like they were nothing and then overpowered him.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Galan007

-flash CAN run without a physical plane beneath his feet.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Wally can run on air/space. Not a big deal. cool

He can?

embarrasment

Inhuman
He can do anything/everything

h1a8
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
He can?

embarrasment Yup, he has done so several times. Ran in space, ran on air, etc. He doesn't need a physical plane to run.

h1a8
Originally posted by Laminator_X
While faster in a tactical sense (Runner travels FTL through space) I don't think that anybody on Team 2 can dish out sufficient punishment to put the Runner down. He hits harder and takes hits better than the Flash family, by far. Look st the end of his fight with the Surfer. He didn't win via his speed. He just shrugged off SS's hits like they were nothing and then overpowered him. Runner is not more durable than Superman can effect with physical blows. Both Zoom and Flash can hit HARDER than Superman.

Laminator_X
Originally posted by h1a8
Runner is not more durable than Superman can effect with physical blows.

What are you basing that on? I don't recall ever seeing the Runner act like he even felt a blow from anybody.

DarkSaint85
Alright, time to address some points here. Stand back, people, and prepare to have your minds blown.

Firstly,

Originally posted by Galan007
you do realize that absolutely everything myself and DS have said regarding flash/zoom has been confirmed with on-panel evidence, right? nothing i/we have mentioned is conjecture.

for example:
-flash CAN react by the attosecond.
-flash CAN calculate infinite scenarios in order to find any possible weakness in his opponent, instantly.
-flash CAN run without a physical plane beneath his feet.
-flash CAN IMP/one-shot heralds.
-a zoom-blitz CAN harm heralds as well.
-zoom's speed DOES make flash's look utterly pathetic in comparison.
etc. etc. etc.


...but yeah, i guess 'fanboyism' is the best way to refer to fact-based arguments these days. /shrug

This is true. Galan, Golgo and I (and anyone else, really) have never talked about dropping multiverses or whatever on people's heads, at least, not seriously. We have provided scans to back up our statements, although, in my case, they aren't mine (if I have seen far, it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants etcetc). So stop whining.

Secondly:
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I argue that that was a PIS moment as we know Surfer moves FTL, but Runner outperformed him against Thanos as pertains speed.
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Didnt Power Girl punk Zoom?

Lol...

Surfer solos if we are going there...

How many appearances has Runner had??? I accept that Wally will have more high feats, AND more low feats (in terms of quantity, we can debate quality), simply because he has had way more appearances than Runner. If Runner has had THREE appearances, and ONE of them is under light speed....that holds FAR more weight than Wally's low showings. And you should take an average or something, IF you guys want to bring up low showings, which I can see you guys are already doing with Deathstroke and PG.

Thirdly:

Originally posted by Inhuman
In that "Gruenwald" Quasar run, Nothing went over light speed. There was some retarded physics/laws and such that he implemented.

Also road runner appearing in that story = credibility dropped.


also...

http://i.imgur.com/overGYA.jpg


smile
Good scan. A beastly feat for Wally.

Where many people (yourself included) have made the mistake, is not reading the full sentence properly. HE CARRIED them there at a hair breadth's short of the speed of light.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A third reading, is that he was both faster and slower than the speed of light.

We know the Flash carried the Koreans at 'a hair breadth's short of the speed of light'.

But when he's running BACK into the city, empty handed, without anyone in his arms and when's he's not having to worry about civilians..he's running faster.

So, rather than assuming a constant speed (the speed that he carried them there = the speed he runs back into the city), he probably took a bit more care+time when he was carrying a little old Korean lady, than ramping it up to max gear when he's on his own.

Also:

He's making two trips, of 35 miles each (assuming the city is concentrated in 1 spot - this is grossly underestimating, as Chongjin is 104 square miles;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongjin). This would be for every rescue.

Inhuman
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Good scan. A beastly feat for Wally.

Where many people (yourself included) have made the mistake, is not reading the full sentence properly. HE CARRIED them there at a hair breadth's short of the speed of light.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A third reading, is that he was both faster and slower than the speed of light.

We know the Flash carried the Koreans at 'a hair breadth's short of the speed of light'.

But when he's running BACK into the city, empty handed, without anyone in his arms and when's he's not having to worry about civilians..he's running faster.

So, rather than assuming a constant speed (the speed that he carried them there = the speed he runs back into the city), he probably took a bit more care+time when he was carrying a little old Korean lady, than ramping it up to max gear when he's on his own.

Also:

He's making two trips, of 35 miles each (assuming the city is concentrated in 1 spot - this is grossly underestimating, as Chongjin is 104 square miles;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongjin). This would be for every rescue.


good speculation.

Another way to look at it is that the writer isn't a mathematician. He may have fuqed up on the numbers, but he still made it clear what speed flash was intended to go at in that scan.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Inhuman
Another way to look at it is that the writer isn't a mathematician. He may have fuqed up on the numbers, but he still made it clear what speed flash was intended to go at in that scan.

True.

But writer intent is not meant to be used. Otherwise Abhi dredges up some long lost interview by some Superman writer where Superman is apparently TOAA in Marvel or something.

So my interpretation, whilst it does NOT have to be the one everyone believes, takes into account BOTH the numbers and the statement.

After all:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Writer clearly says they were carried there.

Says nothing about Flash when he's running empty handed - unless you want to argue he was also carrying them INTO the city?

Writer also clearly states the time taken for the whole operation, and the distance travelled.

He carried them UNDER the speed of light - but to be able to carry out the entire rescue operation in the time CLEARLY stated, he was travelling MUCH faster.

Inhuman
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.

But writer intent is not meant to be used. Otherwise Abhi dredges up some long lost interview by some Superman writer where Superman is apparently TOAA in Marvel or something.

So my interpretation, whilst it does NOT have to be the one everyone believes, takes into account BOTH the numbers and the statement.

After all:

well i think my theory is more plausible than the writer intending flash to go a trillion times the speed of light or whatever.
But its not really a theory because its right there in plain English what he meant.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Inhuman
well i think my theory is more plausible than the writer intending flash to go a trillion times the speed of light or whatever.
But its not really a theory because its right there in plain English what he meant.

It is, indeed.

They were CARRIED there at a hair breadth's short of the speed of light. It's all one sentence, you can't just focus on half a sentence and proclaim you're right.

Plain, clear as day.

Also plain, clear as day, is the population, the distance they were carried, and the time taken for the entire operation to take place.

My explanation takes both statements into account, and is supported by on panel narration and the actual feat itself.

h1a8
Originally posted by Inhuman
well i think my theory is more plausible than the writer intending flash to go a trillion times the speed of light or whatever.
But its not really a theory because its right there in plain English what he meant. What is shown>>>>>>what writer meant. Why? Because the character has actually done it.

Stoic
You should take your own advice h1.

h1a8
Originally posted by Stoic
You should take your own advice h1. I do, all the time.

abhilegend
And yeah, Flash can run in space.

http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla3.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla4.jpg

Not that it helps him much.

tkitna
Originally posted by abhilegend
And yeah, Flash can run in space.

http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla3.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla4.jpg

Not that it helps him much.


Has it ever been explained how a human like the Flash can breath in space or does he not even need to do that now?

Also, in those scans, why was Plastic Man there? Did Plastic Man travel in space too?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Golgo13
Barry did it too, Pre-Crisis.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3876557

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3876558

Team 2.

Originally posted by abhilegend
And yeah, Flash can run in space.

http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla3.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla4.jpg

Not that it helps him much.


confused

How is he breathing?

And does he have the same kind of speed feats running in space, or in air e.t.c.?


Iirc when Bart was punching on SBP, he escaped by just flying into space.

Galan007
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I've read it and I believe they still get destroyed...

Going by your own "evidence" Runners durability is maxed out (a 7 indicates completely invulnerable...doesnt it?); his durability and strength is even greater than his speed (which is BS; those cards are garbage, but whatever)...

They wont be able to harm him (looks like your card supports him having Thanos level durability at the bare minimum...eh?), will eventually fall to his aura since they are lacking in TP resistance feats, and he has planetary level matter manip...

Yeah, Runner crushes them... lmao, this is idiocy at its finest. bio entries NEVER take precedence over on-panel feats--if they did, galactus' power would be equal to LT's(they're both 'teh level 7!!!', after all)... but obviously this is NOT the case, as on-panel feats paint an entirely different picture of their powersets.

however, bios CAN be used to help solidify established on panel fact. this is important because in runner's last appearance, he was shown as decisively sub-c. fast-forward to his 2010 bio, and they have his speed capped at c as well(coincidence? doubtful)... but if you want to ignore canon material, in favor of making childish comments, then go right ahead. either way, flash/zoom are far beyond runner in terms of feats--so runner's 'speed cap' is a moot point regardless. smile

i also can't help but lol @ the glaring double standard here. you're so incredibly quick to mention any low showing from flash or zoom you can think of, but when i mention one of runner's low showings(and cement it with a bio), you get laughably defensive. heh, w/e...

Laminator_X
The Runner can manifestly run faster than light, as he travels the stars "on foot" without taking millennia to get anywhere. I mean really, he intercepted the Silver Surfer in inter-stellar flight, which not only speaks to his speed, but also implies some major perceptual abilities of some sort.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
The Runner can manifestly run faster than light, as he travels the stars "on foot" without taking millennia to get anywhere. I mean really, he intercepted the Silver Surfer in inter-stellar flight, which not only speaks to his speed, but also implies some major perceptual abilities of some sort.

GL's also fly between stars, without taking millenia etc etc.

One explanation (not saying its the case here, but just wanted to point out there are other explanations): portals.

DARTH POWER
^ Also travelling speed is different to combat speed.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by abhilegend
And yeah, Flash can run in space.

http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla3.jpg
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view&current=probejla4.jpg

Not that it helps him much.
Wait so you're telling me Aquaman can fly in space too? Iirc he was there in that scene too. You dont think by any chance he was using constructs or maybe it was artist's interpretation, or maybe a bit of pis? I mean he has history of needing some friction in order to utilize his super speed. He doesn't just normally run free in air and space willy nilly.

DarkSaint85
True, he could just make SpeedForce constructs which obey his thoughts....

Laminator_X
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
GL's also fly between stars, without taking millenia etc etc.

One explanation (not saying its the case here, but just wanted to point out there are other explanations): portals.

I don't think portals, warp points, hyperspace, etc make sense here though. Surfer was cruising along from one star system to another, and the Runner pulls right up alongside him for a chat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Also travelling speed is different to combat speed.

Absolutely. I think the Runner has it all over the Flashes in terms of traveling speed (apart from that Quasar story, but that one is inconsistent with all his other portrayals and has people like Roadrunner in it make of that what you will), but we haven't seen anything from him to suggest that he's in their league in terms of tactical maneuvering. A jet may be faster than a motorcycle, but the motorcycle has way better cornering.

I do think though that he may be based on whatever spacetime-transcending perceptual abilities allowed him to find and intercept a star-travelling Silver Surfer that he might (or might not, of course, this is all highly speculative) be better equipped to follow Zoom's movements than Wally was, even though Wally has faster reactions overall.

DarkSaint85
Woah woah woah.

In terms of travelling speed, has Runner beaten himself in a foot race (as stupid as that sounds)?

Laminator_X
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Woah woah woah.

In terms of travelling speed, has Runner beaten himself in a foot race (as stupid as that sounds)?

I'm not discounting that the Flashes have all sorts of surreal high-end feats, but they fairly consistantly tend to go weird at lightspeed; pass into the Speed Force, blink all over creation, discorporate, etc.

The Runner, despite never displaying the sort of between-the-moments tactical actions and reactions that the Flashes do doesn't seem to have any problem traversing deep-space "on foot." The Runner sensed Moondragon's emotions from lord-knows-where out "across the light-years" in deep space, and high-tailed it to Earth in a matter of what, weeks? That kind of traveling is not something I've seen the Flashes do.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
The Runner sensed Moondragon's emotions from lord-knows-where out "across the light-years" in deep space, and high-tailed it to Earth in a matter of what, weeks? That kind of traveling is not something I've seen the Flashes do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wally runs from Source wall (end of the universe) with a hundred aliens to the watchtower while a space ship exploded around him by creating a portal. He turned himself to pure speed while doing it and nearly killed himself.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16794115_JLE8-page-23.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16794116_JLE8-page-24.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16794118_Untitled-Scanned-05.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16794120_Untitled-Scanned-09.jpg http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/16794122_Untitled-Scanned-10.jpg

nuts

Laminator_X
Very cool, though again very different than normal getting around.

Golgo13
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
He can?

embarrasment

Yep.

Golgo13
There is also this and like Galan mentioned the Krakkle race.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FL_zpsc5caa7ad.jpg

Ambient
Zoom though probably the fastest losses it for DC due to inability to travel in air/ space. I mean, I'm seeing DC gets first strike but once this fight goes airborne and Marvel lets out massive omni direction blast or take out the ground/ battlefield then it would be 1 vs 2 and there is no way Flash can take out a trans and herald or stir the battle to his advantage.

Great thread, marvel wins it for me.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Golgo13
There is also this and like Galan mentioned the Krakkle race.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/FL_zpsc5caa7ad.jpg
They had a specifically built runway in the race with Krakkle. Again are u telling me Aquaman can fly now too? I can show you a bazillion team splash pages with non flyers looking as if they are.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
They had a specifically built runway in the race with Krakkle. Again are u telling me Aquaman can fly now too? I can show you a bazillion team splash pages with non flyers looking as if they are.

They did?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/145371/3914341-9397565467-speco.jpg

Galan007
does this count?
http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/19898519_The_Flash_1987-2009_141-013.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/19898521_The_Flash_1987-2009_141-014.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/19898523_The_Flash_1987-2009_141-015.jpg http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/19898524_The_Flash_1987-2009_141-016.jpg

...i don't think there are many physical roads left to run on when you step outside of time/creation. /shrug

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They did?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/14/145371/3914341-9397565467-speco.jpg
My Photobucket is not working for me so I guess you'll have to take my word for it. Unless of course you think I'm lying...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
My Photobucket is not working for me so I guess you'll have to take my word for it. Unless of course you think I'm lying...

I think you are mad

Nah, my memory's fuzzy, so I acquiesce.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think you are mad

Nah, my memory's fuzzy, so I acquiesce.
Happy now?

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff492/twinzeeto/Miscelaneous/Flashv213612.jpg

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Galan007
does this count?



Lol Guess not! That's Insane!

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Galan007
lmao, this is idiocy at its finest. bio entries NEVER take precedence over on-panel feats--if they did, galactus' power would be equal to LT's(they're both 'teh level 7!!!', after all)... but obviously this is NOT the case, as on-panel feats paint an entirely different picture of their powersets.

however, bios CAN be used to help solidify established on panel fact. this is important because in runner's last appearance, he was shown as decisively sub-c. fast-forward to his 2010 bio, and they have his speed capped at c as well(coincidence? doubtful)... but if you want to ignore canon material, in favor of making childish comments, then go right ahead. either way, flash/zoom are far beyond runner in terms of feats--so runner's 'speed cap' is a moot point regardless. smile

i also can't help but lol @ the glaring double standard here. you're so incredibly quick to mention any low showing from flash or zoom you can think of, but when i mention one of runner's low showings(and cement it with a bio), you get laughably defensive. heh, w/e...

Childish comments!?

You are the one that brought PIS into a non PIS thread CRY BABY!

You brought a scan that caps the top speed in the Marvel Universe as "c" (when "c" has been broken over and over and over and over again in Marvel) into this thread; it might be canon, but it was also a PIS plot device designed to make Runner lose...

Not only that, but you have the audacity to introduce "evidence" into this thread as pertains the Runners abilities, but only want to one facet of it to count! LoL!! What are weak debater you are...

You cant have it bought ways, either your card is BS or it isnt; either Runner moves at sub c (despite the fact that he has a feat of combat speed that exceeds a character that routinely moves faster than c) but is completely invulnerable to what the speedforce family can dish out OR you concede that your evidence is complete BS...pick your poison.

You played the PIS card 1st, because you knew deep down that Runner crushes these two, but your fanboyism wont allow you to admit it openly...


Runner has these combat feats:

1) Crushing Surfer (arguably the top High Herald)...
2) Crushing Collector (a bonafide Trans Tier character)...
3) A loss to Thanos only via a plot device (the Space Gem)...

Flash family has been beaten by far, far, less sans plot devices; they pale compared to the might of the Power Primordial...


Runner crushes your beloved speedforce users...read em and weep...CRY BABY!!

Happy Dance

Galan007
laughing out loud

you're an idiot. thumb up

TheLordofMurder
And you are a Jack@ss...

Cheers! smile

DarkSaint85
Well this thread went downhill lol.

LoM, you say it's PIS, but you gotta understand, the showing of Runner going under C holds FAR more weight than Wally's low showings, because of the number of appearances he's had.

If Wally has appeared 100 times, and has 10 low showings, that's 10%.

If Runner has appeared 3 times, but had 1 low showing, that's 33% of his showings being low. So you can't ignore it as much as you can Wally. That's all.

TheLordofMurder
@DarkSaint

Its a pretty simple argument I make; either the incident was PIS or its not...

Do you agree that the speed limit in Marvel exceeds "c"?

If you agree, then you also agree that that was a limited time only PIS plot device put in place to make Runner lose...

How many times was c surpassed before that writing? How many times was c exceeded after that writing?

You know the answer to this; you know exactly what that writing was...

PIS...

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@DarkSaint

Its a pretty simple argument I make; either the incident was PIS or its not...

Do you agree that the speed limit in Marvel exceeds "c"?

If you agree, then you also agree that that was a limited time only PIS plot device put in place to make Runner lose...

How many times was c surpassed before that writing? How many times was c exceeded after that writing?

You know the answer to this; you know exactly what that writing was...

PIS...

How many times was c surpassed before that writing by Runner? How many times was c exceeded after that writingb by Runner?

Those are the important questions.

Insane Titan
LOM ruins another thread he creates and which he cries in, SMH.

Laminator_X
That race in Quasar is the only time that he was written that way. While your point about statistical weight is has some validity, I chose to toss it out as an outlier on the basis that if he could not surpass light speed, none of his other stories would even be possible. In his very first appearance he talks about traversing light-years and then whisks Moondragon off to explore the galaxy.
Basically, either the c limit was an authorial misstep, or every other story about the character ceases to make sense. The former leads to far more inconsistencies than the latter, and the race story is semi humorous to boot.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
That race in Quasar is the only time that he was written that way. While your point about statistical weight is has some validity, I chose to toss it out as an outlier on the basis that if he could not surpass light speed, none of his other stories would even be possible. In his very first appearance he talks about traversing light-years and then whisks Moondragon off to explore the galaxy.
Basically, either the c limit was an authorial misstep, or every other story about the character ceases to make sense. The former leads to far more inconsistencies than the latter, and the race story is semi humorous to boot.

How many stories has he appeared in?

Laminator_X
Not many: the Moondragon corruption story in New Defenders, the Elders conspiracy in Silver Surfer vol III, the race story in Quasar, and Anihilation.

The race is the only one where lightspeed as a limit is mentioned, and frankly only seems to be there to fit Crisis-surviving-not-Barry into the story.

Not that it's material to the issue at hand anyway. No amount of superspeed tricks are going to drop a guy who can stand there with a silly grin on his face while the Silver Surfer unloads on him or nonchalantly walk around on the surface of a star like it's a stroll through the park.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
Not many: the Moondragon corruption story in New Defenders, the Elders conspiracy in Silver Surfer vol III, the race story in Quasar, and Anihilation.

The race is the only one where lightspeed as a limit is mentioned, and frankly only seems to be there to fit Crisis-surviving-not-Barry into the story.

Not that it's material to the issue at hand anyway. No amount of superspeed tricks are going to drop a guy who can stand there with a silly grin on his face while the Silver Surfer unloads on him or nonchalantly walk around on the surface of a star like it's a stroll through the park.

And in the other three stories, is there a mention of what his true speed limit is?

So not one of those implied things, where he has traveled beyond the stars in the beating of a heart or poetic writing like that.

Because it is sounding like people are inferring a speed limit (beyond multiples of light speed) when a speed limit has already been given, and then discarding 25% of his showings because they don't like it.

If DCnU Superman, as an example had 25% of his showings capping him at struggling to lift a car, people would be cackling with delight.

And no speed tricks will drop him?

Laminator_X
Do they really need to state an explicit velocity when traversing interstellar distances? I mean yeah, Moonie 1st-person narrates their travels in poetic language rather than specifying a velocity figure, but really, nobody quotes the speedometer reading when waxing nostalgic for the Summer spent road tripping with an ex. There's no question that they're on-panel traversing multiple star systems in the span of the time they were a couple. Same deal with catching the Surfer in flight. Neither of them stop to remark on their exact velocity, but it's an interstellar journey that is taking some time in the hours-days range, judging by the surrounding events in the story.

Even the Marathon story in Quasar has them traversing interstellar distances, despite the lightspeed verbiage. It's not even consistent within the book itself. I don't have a problem with that in the context of a story that has a Tortise and Hare as part of the race and the victor's medal handed out by the Road-Runner. It's a goofy fun story and a great love-letter to Barry, but attempting to extrapolate hard-data from it in is an exorcise in foolishness.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
Do they really need to state an explicit velocity when traversing interstellar distances? I mean yeah, Moonie 1st-person narrates their travels in poetic language rather than specifying a velocity figure, but really, nobody quotes the speedometer reading when waxing nostalgic for the Summer spent road tripping with an ex. There's no question that they're on-panel traversing multiple star systems in the span of the time they were a couple. Same deal with catching the Surfer in flight. Neither of them stop to remark on their exact velocity, but it's an interstellar journey that is taking some time in the hours-days range, judging by the surrounding events in the story.

Even the Marathon story in Quasar has them traversing interstellar distances, despite the lightspeed verbiage. It's not even consistent within the book itself. I don't have a problem with that in the context of a story that has a Tortise and Hare as part of the race and the victor's medal handed out by the Road-Runner. It's a goofy fun story and a great love-letter to Barry, but attempting to extrapolate hard-data from it in is an exorcise in foolishness.

True.

Which is where we then have the handbooks, as posted by Galan. On its own, sure, the handbooks aren't to be trusted. But we have on panel, canon, proof (unless it was not canon?) where it's explicitly said to be below light speed.

Laminator_X
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And no speed tricks will drop him?

Short of somehow dishing out orders of magnitude more damage than the Silver Surfer can, I think not. I mean seriously, Thanos resorted to trickery against this guy (I forgot Thanos Quest when I was listing the stories above).

One thing I could maybe see working is some sort of trick where Wally slows him down and Zoom stretches time around him such that the Runner gets so bored that he gives up and dies.

Laminator_X
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.

Which is where we then have the handbooks, as posted by Galan. On its own, sure, the handbooks aren't to be trusted. But we have on panel, canon, proof (unless it was not canon?) where it's explicitly said to be below light speed.

The same story even contradicts itself, saying that they traverse "various points around the Milky Way." Giving it the same weight as his other appearances is like trying to find proof of something in a guest appearance in Howard the Duck's book or saying She-Hulk can escape from a trap by jumping out of the panel onto the next page. It's just not written to the sort of rigorous consistency that you're attempting to apply.

And again, all this go-round over long-distance travel speeds isn't really relevant to his combat performance, other than perhaps in controlling engagement/disengagement. He can out-maneuver the Silver Surfer, which is no small feat, but I think the Flashes outclass him in tactical use of their speed, by far.

DarkSaint85
True, it's not a race, after all.

I guess the reason why I'm harping on about it, is because it translates (in my mind) to reaction speeds as well.

So if one side is much faster in reaction speeds (which is inferred by travel speeds), AND that side is much more tactically aware, then they will win.

Of course, the next step (which is what I believe you're alluding to) is, what the hell can they do? I could be given all the time in the world, but I'm not knocking an elephant out with my bare hands.

Is that a correct summary?

Laminator_X
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So if one side is much faster in reaction speeds (which is inferred by travel speeds), AND that side is much more tactically aware, then they will win.

Of course, the next step (which is what I believe you're alluding to) is, what the hell can they do? I could be given all the time in the world, but I'm not knocking an elephant out with my bare hands.

Is that a correct summary?

More or less.

In terms of reaction speed in a fight, I see it about like:
Zoom>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash>>>>Runner>>>>>>>Silver Surfer
(Highly scientific, I know.)

The nature of Zoom's time-warp based powers gives him a huge reaction advantage over everyone else. However, the flip-side of that is that he doesn't have all the power and versatility that the Speed Force gives the Flash. Like in your elephant example, I don't think that the Silver Surfer would be hurt by his blows, let alone the Runner.

Flash vs Runner in reactions, it's hard to say anything definitive based on the small sample of Runner fights, but I'm inclined say that while the Runner has been shown out-reflexing the Silver Surfer and Thanos, the Flash routinely outclasses most other speedsters in a variety of spectacular and humiliating ways. The Runner doesn't even really fight people all that often, while the Flash has epic superspeed battles on a regular basis. Again, it's hard to say by how much, but I think the Flash has to have a significant advantage here.

What I do wonder about are the nature of the Runners perception, that clearly transcend time and space in some fashion. He can stand on a star and tell that it's going to supernova in a few years time, sense Moondragon's emotions from outside her event horizon, and find the Silver Surfer on the wing. He might be better equipped to handle Zoom's particular brand of trouble than Wally was.

You're right though, in the end I think it comes down to durability. Wally's best hits are pretty darn hard, but if the Runner didn't even feel what SS was doing to him and casually walks around on stars like it's nothing... let's say that if the Flash were to pull off a victory, it'd be through some sort of clever out-of-context maneuver rather than anything in his usual arsenal.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Laminator_X
More or less.

In terms of reaction speed in a fight, I see it about like:
Zoom>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash>>>>Runner>>>>>>>Silver Surfer
(Highly scientific, I know.)

The nature of Zoom's time-warp based powers gives him a huge reaction advantage over everyone else. However, the flip-side of that is that he doesn't have all the power and versatility that the Speed Force gives the Flash. Like in your elephant example, I don't think that the Silver Surfer would be hurt by his blows, let alone the Runner.

Flash vs Runner in reactions, it's hard to say anything definitive based on the small sample of Runner fights, but I'm inclined say that while the Runner has been shown out-reflexing the Silver Surfer and Thanos, the Flash routinely outclasses most other speedsters in a variety of spectacular and humiliating ways. The Runner doesn't even really fight people all that often, while the Flash has epic superspeed battles on a regular basis. Again, it's hard to say by how much, but I think the Flash has to have a significant advantage here.

What I do wonder about are the nature of the Runners perception, that clearly transcend time and space in some fashion. He can stand on a star and tell that it's going to supernova in a few years time, sense Moondragon's emotions from outside her event horizon, and find the Silver Surfer on the wing. He might be better equipped to handle Zoom's particular brand of trouble than Wally was.

You're right though, in the end I think it comes down to durability. Wally's best hits are pretty darn hard, but if the Runner didn't even feel what SS was doing to him and casually walks around on stars like it's nothing... let's say that if the Flash were to pull off a victory, it'd be through some sort of clever out-of-context maneuver rather than anything in his usual arsenal.

thumb up
Agreed. And truth be told, I doubt Galan and I would be arguing this hard if CIS hadn't been turned off for the match, which is why we give it to the speedsters. There are a lot of options open to them, after all. Am sure you wouldn't appreciate a scan dump, but am happy to showcase some of the weirder applications of his powers which he has done?

Again, Galan and I have never in seriousness talked about things that he's never done before.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Insane Titan
LOM ruins another thread he creates and which he cries in, SMH.

Kiss my @ss...

Golgo13
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
thumb up
Agreed. And truth be told, I doubt Galan and I would be arguing this hard if CIS hadn't been turned off for the match, which is why we give it to the speedsters. There are a lot of options open to them, after all. Am sure you wouldn't appreciate a scan dump, but am happy to showcase some of the weirder applications of his powers which he has done?

Again, Galan and I have never in seriousness talked about things that he's never done before.

Wasn't Wally's punches described as a white star exploding? Or something to that? Think about hundreds of those. Thousands.

Golgo13
Speed Force is a powerful thing.

http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg587/golgi7777/WW_zps76bd53ce.jpg

Laminator_X
Originally posted by Golgo13
Wasn't Wally's punches described as a white star exploding? Or something to that? Think about hundreds of those. Thousands.

I tend to take any physicsy descriptions of what the Flash does with a shaker of salt. What actually happens on the page never matches what the hyperbolic description says. It all translates to "hit him with a more powerful than usual bolt of speedforce energy at the end of his fist."

DarkSaint85
Ignore him. I don't want him on my team.

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