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Rasta is unamped

force, sabers, all out

Kit.

Fisto

Kit

I'd think Raskta. Seems to me like she'd have the saber edge, and Fisto isn't a heavy user of the force.

Lsu wins in a good fight, Fisto's force prowess is not so strong as to ragdoll the Weapons Master.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Lsu wins in a good fight, Fisto's force prowess is not so strong as to ragdoll the Weapons Master.
You don't really have to be that strong in the Force to ragdoll her.

Nor do you have to be that strong in the force to TK Grievous, but he still doesn't go down like a ***** every time a Jedi force pushes him.

Ahsoka.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Ahsoka.
Whom Grievous could've very easily killed ten seconds after she force pushed him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You don't really have to be that strong in the Force to ragdoll her.

Proof?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Whom Grievous could've very easily killed ten seconds after she force pushed him.
But the point is, she was still able to do it. Fisto being much stronger than Ahsoka should have no trouble doing the same.


@Above: RoT says Raskta isn't skilled at defending against Force based attacks.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
But the point is, she was still able to do it. Fisto being much stronger than Ahsoka should have no trouble doing the same.


@Above: RoT says Raskta isn't skilled at defending against Force based attacks.
Fisto pushed Grievous a grand total of one time in their entire fight (and if I must be honest, there was less power behind Fisto's push than there was Ahsoka's), so I don't think he's going to be spamming telekinetic attacks in this fight. Plus, I don't think Raskta's gonna be completely taken out of the fight by a force push.

I'm conflicted, while its true that grievous has been vulnerable to the Force at times he still has mechanical enhancements that allow him to at least compete with force sensitives. Lsu on the other hand is a force sensitive but has little talent with evading or applying in offensive force powers in battle and has no enhancements beyond masterful bladework and physical training that compensates for her weaknesses.That being said , Kit does have the advantage of being a more powerful force user and I do believe that while Lsu is the superior lightsaber combatant the margin between them is not great enough for Lsu to dominate vased on lightsaber prowess alone.

In the end i'm going with Kit, because if Lsu is the superior duelist Kit will most certainly fall back on his force abilities which I think will eventually overwhelm Lsu.

edit

I wouldn't put anybody who isn't a top tier Force User above Raskta personally.

"She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon."

Hyperbole?

"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet."

Drew's making a general remark about Weapons Masters not being skilled at defending against Force attacks, not Raskta specifically. Of course, that point is also reflected in what's happening, but all that means is that her Force defence relative to Bane's attacks was lacking, and that Farfalla was able to use his own defences to do most of the work in protecting her on top of her own defences. So all that the incident itself establishes is that Farfalla's defence is significantly superipor to her's, and that a Force User of Bane's calibre would be able to easily ragdoll her.

Now back onto the general remark he made about Weapons Masters, how skilled someone is is all relative. It might just be that, ceteris paribus, Weapons Masters are comparatively not as skilled as other roles at Force defence, and he was simply stating that using very strong and blunt wording.

You might also be able to attribute both quotes to CrIS (creator induced stupidity). Realistically, a Weapons Master would focus on weapons training, as well as Force Defence so as to be able to force a weapons battle onto their opponent. In MMA, no decent MMA striker is going to ignore training their ability to defend takedowns and submissions and scramble back up to their feet, as they can all completely nullify his striking ability. Exactly the same thing here. You could argue that she might have relied on a partner like Farfalla to help protect her, but again, realistically a Weapons Master would also want to be self sufficient and not completely reliant on others.

What to take away from those quotes:

1. Bane level Force Users can easily ragdoll her.
2. She has significantly weaker Force Defences than people as powerful as her that don't fully specialise in saber combat (and her speed in combat suggests she was pretty powerful), as well as the likes of Farfalla (who seemed to be one of the most notable Jedi of that era).

The rest can be attributed to hyperbole, inappropiate tone, and CrIS.

dmb alludes to a good point as well in that Force Users that aren't top tier, and lightsiders in general, are usually not able to decisively dominate someone or end a fight with their Force powers alone. A Force User of Kit Fisto's calibre at best might use a Force Push to create an opening, but he isn't going to be able to kill her with one.

No, Bane level Force users can kill her with a single push. You don't need to be that level to overwhelm her with the Force.

As for the fight, IMO it should be pretty close.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Fisto pushed Grievous a grand total of one time in their entire fight (and if I must be honest, there was less power behind Fisto's push than there was Ahsoka's), so I don't think he's going to be spamming telekinetic attacks in this fight.

He didn't need to. However, I think a fight with Raskta would be much more difficult than the one with Grievous, and Fisto is above Ahsoka in TK, so I don't doubt that he would be able to fight her that way.

I'm not saying Fisto is as powerful as Bane was in RoT, but I don't see why Fisto wouldn't be able to use the Force in a similar manner, when she herself is stated to not have adequate defences.

Originally posted by TerasKasi1023
I'm conflicted, while its true that grievous has been vulnerable to the Force at times he still has mechanical enhancements that allow him to at least compete with force sensitives. Lsu on the other hand is a force sensitive but has little talent with evading or applying in offensive force powers in battle and has no enhancements beyond masterful bladework and physical training that compensates for her weaknesses.That being said , Kit does have the advantage of being a more powerful force user and I do believe that while Lsu is the superior lightsaber combatant the margin between them is not great enough for Lsu to dominate vased on lightsaber prowess alone.

In the end i'm going with Kit, because if Lsu is the superior duelist Kit will most certainly fall back on his force abilities which I think will eventually overwhelm Lsu.

Yosup Teras!

There's also the point that Raskta killed as many Sith as the thought bomb. Sith generally don't hold back, so it's not like any telekinetic push is going to wreck Lsu.

Does Fisto have any TK feats? i know he was able to use a water based Attack in OCW, But nothing else.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, Bane level Force users can kill her with a single push. You don't need to be that level to overwhelm her with the Force.

As for the fight, IMO it should be pretty close.

Not to simply overpower her, but to completely ragdoll her or to lethal effect is what I was saying.

Originally posted by appletonia
Not to simply overpower her, but to completely ragdoll her or to lethal effect is what I was saying.
Yeah, Raskta's not being eliminated from the fight because Fisto pushes her with the force. Would have to be more drastic than that.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
There's also the point that Raskta killed as many Sith as the thought bomb. Sith generally don't hold back, so it's not like any telekinetic push is going to wreck Lsu.

Indeed. That she completely neglected her Force defence or would be easy to take out isn't really all that compatible with her reputation as a serial Sith killer, and really not very realistic (it's a shame as Drew seemed to get it right with Kas'im by having this Weapons Master be awesome with a lightsaber, not really use the Force offensively, but still be able to defend against it).

Which is why I maintain that:

"The rest can be attributed to hyperbole, inappropiate tone, and CrIS."

I take such statements as Raskta somehow killing thousands of Sith with a grain of salt, but even so, someone of her caliber can easily blitz no names. Fisto isn't so far below her that such a thing is possible.

Anyways I'd like to think that unamped Raskta sits somewhere in the general tier that the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu, Dooku, Sidious and maybe ROTS Anakin all occupy when it comes to saber combat (and only a bit below Kas'im in ability). Kit Fisto is outclassed.

Lmao

God forbid I suggest that perhaps the greatest lightsaber practitioner of her era's Jedi Order occupies the same tier as the big 5 of the beloved CW era... nevermind someone with the ability she demonstrates in ROT. Gotta love the self appointed guardians of the status quo at this forum an their brilliant rebuttals.

Originally posted by appletonia
Anyways I'd like to think that unamped Raskta sits somewhere in the general tier that the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu, Dooku, Sidious and maybe ROTS Anakin all occupy when it comes to saber combat (and only a bit below Kas'im in ability). Kit Fisto is outclassed.
A small child just killed himself reading this post.

Originally posted by appletonia
Anyways I'd like to think that unamped Raskta sits somewhere in the general tier that the likes of Yoda

Stopped reading right here.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
There's also the point that Raskta killed as many Sith as the thought bomb. Sith generally don't hold back, so it's not like any telekinetic push is going to wreck Lsu.

Yeah, they will. There is no evidence she can even put up a force shield, Farfalla had to do it or Bane's force wave would've killed her. While Fistos's won't "splatter" her against the wall like an amped Bane's, it can certainly send her flying and he can possibly ragdoll her.

She has the skill to compete with them, but she lacks the power to back it up--Without BM aiding her, she doesn't have the necessary speed, strength, or precog to be their equal.

You think the BM was that much of a boost? With it, she was coming across as a lot faster than Bane (who is possessive of perhaps the best speed feats we've ever seen in the mythos). I wouldn't assume that she's anything but top tier in speed while unamped, and skill wise I'd say she probably has them all beat.

Originally posted by appletonia
Bane (who is possessive of perhaps the best speed feats we've ever seen in the mythos).

No?

Lol.

Originally posted by Trocity
No?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405188&from=thread&pagenumber=1656#post14571769

Faster version but even by POD he was able to blitz Sirak who was extremely strong in the Force and stood out among master level Sith.

Sirak isn't even above Ahsoka.

He was head and shoulders above everyone else (aside from Bane) in a group that was on the same level as the BOD's own masters, and was thought by many to be a candidate for the Sith'ari (and by extension is implied to have had maybe the greatest potential in the Order before Bane came along). Blitzing him, at a time when Bane was nowhere near as powerful as he was by the end of POD, let alone ROT, is an incredible speed feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sirak isn't even above AhsokaZett Jukassa.

The text makes it pretty clear it was.

"It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might."

"Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power."

"Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy."



Not really. She landed as many blows as she did not because she was much faster, but because Bane had no need to defend those areas of his body due to the protection provided by the Orbalisks.



Heh, nah.



Even when amped, Sidious is certainly faster than she.



Not much suggests this. She's probably close, though.

My view is Raskta is very much in the higher tiers of saber combat *skill* wise (I mean, her training and experience has been 100% how to accomplish things with superior bladework), but the lack of force means she's overall lower than she could be. The BM compensates for that some.

Originally posted by appletonia
He was head and shoulders above everyone else (aside from Bane) in a group that was on the same level as the BOD's own masters, and was thought by many to be a candidate for the Sith'ari (and by extension is implied to have had maybe the greatest potential in the Order before Bane came along). Blitzing him, at a time when Bane was nowhere near as powerful as he was by the end of POD, let alone ROT, is an incredible speed feat.


It's a reasonably good one, but the masters at the time were noted to be lacking.


And there's faster sith lords who've blitzed multiple masters at the same time, so while it's good, it's not one of 'the best speed feats we've seen in the saga.'

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The text makes it pretty clear it was.

"It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might."

"Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power."

"Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy."

A significant boost for sure but that significant?



I was referring to this, which is from Farfalla's perspective:

"She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive."

Seeing as from Farfalla's perspective she was seemingly surrounding him from all angles, it's clear she was easily the faster of the two.



Nothing comes close to the rain feat bro, click the link I provided.



Seeing as Sidious is not as fast as Orbalisk Bane, he's isn't close to amped Raskta.



I'm too lazy to post them now, but all of the complimentary quotes from ROT more than suggests it.

Originally posted by Q99
My view is Raskta is very much in the higher tiers of saber combat *skill* wise (I mean, her training and experience has been 100% how to accomplish things with superior bladework), but the lack of force means she's overall lower than she could be. The BM compensates for that some.

The only thing you text indicates she was lacking Force wise was a focus on anything that wasn't related to lightsaber combat (though this has already been addressed in this thread), but not Force strength itself and certainly not Force abilities that assist lightsaber combat.



Refer to the other thread where we discussed this Q.



I was referring to the rain feat. The Sirak feat, while not the best, was performed by a version of Bane that was basically the Jedi Youngling to his ROT incarnation's Jedi Grandmaster. The increase in power from his fight with Sirak to his fight with Raskta and Co was absolutely huge.

Originally posted by appletonia
Seeing as Sidious is not as fast as Orbalisk Bane, he's isn't close to amped Raskta.
An entire country just went into civil war after reading this post, trying to comprehend if you are either trolling or just ****ed up.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
An entire country just went into civil war after reading this post, trying to comprehend if you are either trolling or just ****ed up.

whyyoualwaysbetrollingbro?

Calling Cade a noob is wore than anything Ant has ever said.

Originally posted by appletonia
Seeing as Sidious is not as fast as Orbalisk Bane, he's isn't close to amped Raskta.

http://cannabisdestiny.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/are-you-high.gif

Are you saying. Darth Bane > Raskta > Sidious in speed? just explain that please.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm trying to comprehend if you are either trolling or just ****ed up.

Same here.

Originally posted by appletonia

Refer to the other thread where we discussed this Q.

Yea, the general conclusion here is that the era was lacking in force training.

Indeed, it was part of the thematic emphasis of the stories of the era.


Now, that doesn't affect skill in sheer bladework, but the difference is illustrated in practice against the likes of Bane.

Heck, Farfalla is not all that impressive in the force yet he's a famous master at the time who did specialize in it.



I think you need to remember that just because you had an opinion in another thread, it doesn't mean anything decisive.


Also, it's much more specific and helpful if you say specifically what you mean. I mean, even referring to another thread, a lot of points get brought up in a thread. Heck, I'm just assuming I'm remembering the right one because it's not like you're mentioning either title nor timeframe.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd think Raskta. Seems to me like she'd have the saber edge, and Fisto isn't a heavy user of the force.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A small child just killed himself reading this post.

No need for that imagery, thanks.

LOL