Useless team member cut

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riv6672
Cut the most useless member of the following teams, however you personally define useless...lack of power, redundancy, bad attitude, whatever.
In the cases of the JLA, JSA and Avengers, who have had so many classic line ups, please state which line up you're talking about. Add any team you'd like as well.

Fantastic Four-Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben

Authority-Jenny Quantum, apollo, Midnighter, Hawksmoor, Engineer, Doctor, Swift

Defenders-Dr. Strange, Namor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Nighthawk, Valkrie, Hellcat

Alpha Flight-Guardian, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, Aurora, Northstar, Marinna

JLA-various

JSA-various

Avengers-various

relentless1
Green Arrow from JLA, he has no real purpose on the team except as Black Canarys bf, same with Hawkeye in the Avengers for that matter

riv6672
Perfectly valid.
I like the archers, personally. Realistically they bring more with their personalities than their power set. Still, i'd never sell them short in a fight.

basilisk
Originally posted by riv6672
Cut the most useless member of the following teams, however you personally define useless...lack of power, redundancy, bad attitude, whatever.
In the cases of the JLA, JSA and Avengers, who have had so many classic line ups, please state which line up you're talking about. Add any team you'd like as well.

Fantastic Four-Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben

Authority-Jenny Quantum, apollo, Midnighter, Hawksmoor, Engineer, Doctor, Swift

Defenders-Dr. Strange, Namor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Nighthawk, Valkrie, Hellcat

Alpha Flight-Guardian, Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, Aurora, Northstar, Marinna

JLA-various

JSA-various

Avengers-various
Fantastic Four - has to be Ben or Johnny, and if I have to pick one I'll go with Ben.

Reed has the brains & tech and considering the things he's done over the years he can do more with prep against more powerful enemies than anyone else on the team. With a little prep he could solo the rest of the team. Sue has the most power and with no prep could solo the rest of the team, and the whole PMS aspect of her modern personality makes her a dangerous opponent. Johnny's flame and flight come in handy too and he has the nova blast, potentially the team's most devastating single attack. As for Thing... he has strength. No speed, no flight, no particular brains, no other powers.

If they need a building held up? Sue can do it with force fields.
Need to smash down a wall? Sue can probably do something with ff or Johnny can blast it.
Need to fight a brick? If he's Thing level or lower Sue can probably beat him with ff. If he's more powerful than Thing she probably still has a better chance with her power levels these days.


JLA - Aquaman. The guy can just swim fast. OK just kidding, Black Canary or Green Arrow. They are both kind of redundant and underpowered, but no denying the archers are useful sometimes, just ask Hawkeye.


JSA - that patriot/america guy, or whoever that guy with the whip was. Don't remember him or his name, can't even be bothered googling him. He has no right to be on that team.


Defenders - Nighthawk. I once made a thread about who can Nighthawk actually defeat and I think the conclusive answer was nobody. I don't think he ever won an actual fight. I think he hit Spider-Man across the room once which was probably the pinnacle of his career.


I will have to think about some of the others.

janus77
Avengers - Thor.

Hawkeye's an obvious choice, but I think this is a reasonable one too.

For the more powerful Avengers line-up, Thor is basically just another flying brick, but Hype does the "Hulk-level" stuff, Skinny starman does the Silver Surfer-lite feats etc.

The "One man army" stuff, demolishing the opposition, that's Hulk's forte more often than not.

And we don't see him doing anything at all, when it comes to magic, so yes ... extraneous team member.

Digi
Originally posted by riv6672
Authority-Jenny Quantum, apollo, Midnighter, Hawksmoor, Engineer, Doctor, Swift

Was gonna say Apollo. Then I remembered Swift. She's kinda the definition of this thread.

basilisk
Yeah, Swift absolutely for the Authority. Useless.

Batman and Robin - Robin. He's like a redundant Batman-lite but not as good at prep, fighting, deductive reasoning, gadgets, etc. Isn't filthy rich. Doesn't look cool, or intimidating, doesn't have a batmobile or a batcave, or a mansion, can't say things like "I'm Batman!" or "I'm the goddamn Batman!" Stick to the Titans, Robin. There's a reason why they don't let you into the JLA.

Simon Baz - is he in a team yet? If so then Simon Baz for that team. Worthless character.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672

Fantastic Four-Cut: Ben

Authority- Swift

Defenders- Valkyrie. You need a mystic who's not as good as strange, a flying brick not as good as Namor, or a land brick not as good as Hulk? Hellcat has her demonic powers, and Nighthawk can lead, at least.

Alpha Flight-Tbf, the entire team's useless.

JLA-Green Arrow was the conscience of the team. Hawkman was pretty useless, until they got him Thangarian tech. Otherwise, Huntress.

JSA-Mr America. Was gonna say Ma Hunkel, but she's too important. Maybe Wildcat - at least AMerica has some range. When one of your powers is I have 8 lives, that's kinda shitty.

Avengers-Spiderman.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Alpha Flight-Tbf, the entire team's useless.


Shot fired! Summoning K-M!

-K-M-
Meh!

basilisk
Alpha Flight - Marrina. Just not required and not a very good character anyway.

golem370
Everybody is forgetting X-Men

Newjak
Originally posted by -K-M-
Meh! Where is the two page scan dump letting everyone know AF is the best!?

pym-ftw
Pym from the Illuminati.

He is only on the team because he is smart, but he is very against their line of thinking.

Though its cool to see Yellow Jacket back.

riv6672
Originally posted by golem370
Everybody is forgetting X-Men
X-Men-tbf, the entire team is useless.

Really interesting choices and rasoning. By interesting i dont necessarily mean good, in some cases, but thats not what this is about.
Cant say i disagree on Mr. America. Indiana Jones he's not.

wuleecat
In Squadron Supreme( JMS version) , either Power Princess or Whizzer. Power Princess because she wasn't as strong/fast/cool as Hyperion. Whizzer was a really useless version of Quicksilver, and his name makes him sound as though he has incontinence issues. Oh, I forgot about 'fish-girl' (she's so crap I can't even remember her name!) All she ever seemed to do was run out of water and have to get rescued by Spectrum. So, quite a few to choose from on that team.

As far as the X-Men ( or the various x-incarnations go) is there anyone even in the same ballpark as the uselessness that is Jubilee?

As for the Fantastic Four, I am going to take a risk here and say Reed. Specifically, Reed's stretchiness. As a power, it's always seemed pretty redundant to me in any encounter, since he is usually written as a sort of human Pez dispenser as far as 'solutions' go. Usually his stretchiness is just a gimmicky thing used by the artist to jazz up the page a bit: "Ooh look, Reed's really concerned. Look how he's wrapped his arms round Sue twelve times. Ooh look, Reed's thinking super-hard - look how his skull has stretched to six times its normal size." I think a cool plot development would be to make Reed really really stupid for a few issues, and see if his rubberiness would help out the team that much.

Mindship
Fantastic Four ... gonna go with the Torch as the one to boot. Sue can pretty much be the "energy projector/manipulator" of the group, but she's a glass cannon. There should be a brick/tank around, good for melee, to balance things out.

riv6672
Originally posted by wuleecat
In Squadron Supreme( JMS version) , either Power Princess or Whizzer. Power Princess because she wasn't as strong/fast/cool as Hyperion. Whizzer was a really useless version of Quicksilver, and his name makes him sound as though he has incontinence issues. Oh, I forgot about 'fish-girl' (she's so crap I can't even remember her name!) All she ever seemed to do was run out of water and have to get rescued by Spectrum. So, quite a few to choose from on that team.

As far as the X-Men ( or the various x-incarnations go) is there anyone even in the same ballpark as the uselessness that is Jubilee?

As for the Fantastic Four, I am going to take a risk here and say Reed. Specifically, Reed's stretchiness. As a power, it's always seemed pretty redundant to me in any encounter, since he is usually written as a sort of human Pez dispenser as far as 'solutions' go. Usually his stretchiness is just a gimmicky thing used by the artist to jazz up the page a bit: "Ooh look, Reed's really concerned. Look how he's wrapped his arms round Sue twelve times. Ooh look, Reed's thinking super-hard - look how his skull has stretched to six times its normal size." I think a cool plot development would be to make Reed really really stupid for a few issues, and see if his rubberiness would help out the team that much.

Bold choice on Reed. Good one, though.
To be fair, even he doesnt consider his power his main contribution to the team.

Caps Conscience
Wasp is by far the most useless Avenger.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Newjak
Where is the two page scan dump letting everyone know AF is the best!?

If they don't already know, they will never learn...that or I'm just lazy.

wuleecat
Originally posted by riv6672
Bold choice on Reed. Good one, though.
To be fair, even he doesnt consider his power his main contribution to the team.

Agreed, it's not as if when Thanos is going beserk with the Infinity Gauntlet everyone immediately shouts for help from the nearest guy with the ability to fetch things off the highest shelf. Everyone wants the big brain.

It's just his rubberiness has been virtually written out of any relevance. It's the power which is useless, not the guy. It would be like Charles Xavier having the power to grow his fingernails really, really long very quickly. Yeah, and...?

Oh and I agree about Wasp. Rubbish. It's made worse when in big melee battles they have Thor wailing away on Ultron with his hammer and Tony hosing him down with repulsor blasts. Then they cut to a panel where Janet 'brings on the pain' with those absurd stings, like she's some kind of pivotal part of the battle. Either that, or she's endlessly coming out with her 'quips' about fashion or somesuch nonsense.

wuleecat
JSA - Doctor Mid-Nite. He can see in the dark, and he's good at healing people. Oh and he knows a bit of judo. Membership revoked!
I think he's quite a good character, personality-wise, and his costume is quite cool. And I know he's smart. It's just in most cases I don't think he really pulls his weight in a fight.

riv6672
Fair enough.
In the end, that really applies to 90% of street levelers on teams.

JayDaDon
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672



Avengers-Spiderman.

Lol seriously? In a team that consists of the likes of the Wasp, the falcon and hawkeye?

JayDaDon
Originally posted by basilisk
Sue has the most power and with no prep could solo the rest of the team, and the whole PMS aspect of her modern personality makes her a dangerous opponent.

The PMS-force is not to be messed with. It should really have a name, because when Sue is angry she really just gets to do whatever the hell she wants.

SamZED
Avengers - Thor
JLA - Superman
The FF - Reed Richards


Come at me.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by JayDaDon
Lol seriously? In a team that consists of the likes of the Wasp, the falcon and hawkeye?

Yup.

Falcon has his SHIELD connections, plus military training. Plus, him and Wasp....bring the quotas up.

Hawkeye has his accuracy (hear me out!)

Spiderman has....technical smarts. But not as high as Tony/Noh-Varr.
Strength. But not as high as a Thor or Hyperion.
Speed/agility. But not as high as the others.
Fighting skills. But no Shang/Iron Fist/Wolverine. Plus, he holds back a lot.
No connections. He's a loner.
Is unpopular and brings negative press, thanks to the Bugle.

I guess his saving graces are that he's humorous, but Hawkeye brings that already.
Perhaps his Spidersense?

What does he bring to the table? At least Spiderwoman has spider powers, plus her pheremones.

JayDaDon
Spider-Man is more often the guy who sees what escapes the mind of someone like stark. The avengers have never solely relied on him as their sole genius as it wouldnt be very smart. Petes smarts have been what saved the day for the avengers over Tony's before because hes a fresh perspective, a genius one. Also who cares about falcons shield connections when captain america is on your team? IMO the TRUE spidey rarely shines on the avengers but when he does, you get moments like what happened in big time and at the ends of the earth.

DarkSaint85
Hence why I added, quotas. Which, sad as it may sounds IS the reason those guys/girls are on the team.

Mindship
I'm not sure why Reed is the one to boot from the FF. His stretching power was pretty much always secondary to his main contribution: his genius, his prep, his inventions. An FF w/o this is just brute force.

The Torch, otoh, has often been the impulse-driven hothead, the one to fly first into battle, usually to get his flame doused or suffocated, wherein he has to get rescued by his teammates.

Just curious.

SamZED
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672


Avengers-Spiderman. I will destroy you and devour your soul!


Kidding aside, I disagree. He doesn't have to be "The" at everything in order to be more useful to the team than Hawkeye, Wasp etc.

Web-shooters are easily one of the most effective devices when it comes to saving random civilians once a super villain fight breaks out. Stopping falling derbies, explosions, supporting crumbling and collapsing buildings etc.
Spider sense is basically magic and can be useful in various situations. Like defusing a time bomb that is about to go off relying solely on ss which is much faster than figuring out how it works and which wire to pull. Or as a warning of incoming danger.
Strength agreed. Although class 20 pressure point assault on an opponent could be pretty useful at times.
Speed/agility he's arguably the quickest street leveler on the team combat-wise.
And Pete may not be as smart as IM but Tony can't be everywhere at once, and Pete can easily fill in for him if the team needs a genius and Stark is not around/koed/stranded in a negative zone/saving someone Else etc.
Also never underestimate the heart factor and quick thinking heh.

To sum up even though he's not the best at everything statistically there's a much bigger chance that he'll be more useful in some particular situations because of the wide range of skills and abilities. At the same time I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where the team goes "We can't do this! Somebody get Hawkeye here ASAP!"

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by SamZED


What If? Spiderman went rogue sneer

Digi
If Pete went rogue, a lot of Avengers would be in trouble. Not all, of course, but several outside his supposed power level.

Sam defended the webhead well, so I need not say more.

Originally posted by wuleecat
JSA - Doctor Mid-Nite. He can see in the dark, and he's good at healing people. Oh and he knows a bit of judo. Membership revoked!
I think he's quite a good character, personality-wise, and his costume is quite cool. And I know he's smart. It's just in most cases I don't think he really pulls his weight in a fight.

His skills as a doctor more than make up for this. This is a terrible pick for most useless, imo. There are several on the JSA I'd pick over him.

JayDaDon
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence why I added, quotas. Which, sad as it may sounds IS the reason those guys/girls are on the team.

So basically, they arent nearly as useful to the team as Spider-Man..

JayDaDon
Also Tony may be a genius but Spidey is a genius of a completely different field; Chemistry. Sure their genius overlaps in alot of places but Thats another thing he adds to the team.

shadowknight
JLA-Depending on the Lineup and what era in the JLA-is a 5 way tie between GA, Black Canary, Plastic Man, Elongated man, Blue Beetle. Basically MM Can duplicate anything E-M or P-M can do, Batman can duplicate or is better at anything GA, BC or BB can do.

Defenders-without a doubt it's Hellcat

Avengers- Depending on the lineup there's too many to list but the most obvious ones are Hawkeye, Mockingbird, D-Man, Moon Knight, Stingray, Falcon Tigra and Wasp

JSA-without a doubt is Mr America and his whip and Dr Midnite.

FF-is toughb to chose because I don't think there's any useless members. But the most easily replaced Is Thing. She Hulk, Power Man. She Thing and IIRC Black Goliath have filled in for the Thing. To tell the truth Mr Fantastic can and has already created a exoskeleton version of the Thing and the Mad thinker has created a robot version of him also.

Digi
Don't diss mah boy Moon Knight. Dude's legit.

Elongated Man's a good choice. Plastic Man isn't, though, imo, because of how he uses his powers. Based on power set alone, I'd agree he's not the most useful. But in practice, he tends to pull his weight.

shadowknight
JLA-Depending on the Lineup and what era in the JLA-is a 5 way tie between GA, Black Canary, Plastic Man, Elongated man, Blue Beetle. Basically MM Can duplicate anything E-M or P-M can do, Batman can duplicate or is better at anything GA, BC or BB can do.

Defenders-without a doubt it's Hellcat

Avengers- Depending on the lineup there's too many to list but the most obvious ones are Hawkeye, Mockingbird, D-Man, Moon Knight, Stingray, Falcon Tigra and Wasp

JSA-without a doubt is Mr America and his whip and Dr Midnite.

FF-is tough to chose because I don't think there's any useless members. But the most easily replaced Is Thing. She Hulk, Power Man, She Thing and IIRC Black Goliath have filled in for the Thing. To tell the truth Mr Fantastic can and has already created a exoskeleton version of the Thing and the Mad thinker has created a robot version of him also.

Bentley
Originally posted by Digi
If Pete went rogue, a lot of Avengers would be in trouble. Not all, of course, but several outside his supposed power level.

He'd punk suckers until Hawkeye steps up and slaps some sense into his webhead.

Digi
Originally posted by Bentley
He'd punk suckers until Hawkeye steps up and slaps some sense into his webhead.

I'm laughing at how thoroughly he'd wreck Clint if he had both time to prepare and wasn't in "hero holding back" mode. Not that he'd need either to win, of course, but Barton only stands a chance if we grant him all kinds of obscure trick arrows and lopsided prep on his side.

Originally posted by shadowknight
JSA-without a doubt is Mr America and his whip and Dr Midnite.

Agreed entirely with America. That stupid whip...

As earlier with another, I strongly disagree with Midnight. His medical expertise is a huge boon to the team, especially as it pertains to metahuman physiology.

golem370
How about Swordsman- http://spider-bob.com/heroes/marvel/Swordsman.htm

riv6672
Swordsman's re-animated corpse even referred to himself as fodder once.

Deadline
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Originally posted by riv6672



Alpha Flight-Tbf, the entire team's useless.

.

Stop trying to goad KM!

riv6672
Originally posted by SamZED
At the same time I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where the team goes "We can't do this! Somebody get Hawkeye here ASAP!"

And yet, canon or not, he took down Krona's Kill them all-inator...smile

Digi
Originally posted by riv6672
And yet, canon or not, he took down Krona's Kill them all-inator...smile

Not, as it happens. Important bit of info, that.

wink

riv6672
Originally posted by Digi
Not, as it happens. Important bit of info, that.

wink
And yet i see the series that happened in referenced here, sometimes without even the "not canon" qualifier, many times.

Important bit of hypocrisy, that. smile

Digi
Originally posted by riv6672
And yet i see the series that happened in referenced here, sometimes without even the "not canon" qualifier, many times.

Important bit of hypocrisy, that. smile

Pft. Not by me.

riv6672
Originally posted by Digi
Pft. Not by me.
Ha, this i know! thumb up
Just saying, Hawkeye's hardly useless. No more than a guy dressed like a flying rodent, at any rate.

Again, we can say all non metas are basically useless on super teams, though.

krisblaze
Hawkeye and Falcon were pretty useless for many years imo.

And they knew it too thumb up

Silent Master
X-men=cut Wolverine

riv6672
More like the other way around.

Insane Titan
Defenders-Hulk one dimensional brick

krisblaze
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Defenders-Hulk one dimensional brick
In all fairness Namor is also on the team stick out tongue

But yea, either Hulk or Namor's getting cut.

riv6672
Shows how powerful a team they are when Hulk or Namor are the "weak" ones. thumb up

Caps Conscience
X-Men need to cut Beast.

riv6672
I agree, if only so he can go back to being an Avenger like he's supposed to be. thumb up

Bentley
Now that you mention it, why is Beast not in the Uncanny Avengers rooster? They even had Simon on it? Makes no sense.

riv6672
No idea. Beast has always been a great Avenger.

golem370
Demolition Man (Dennis Dunphy)

shadowknight
Originally posted by riv6672
Ha, this i know! thumb up
Just saying, Hawkeye's hardly useless. No more than a guy dressed like a flying rodent, at any rate.

Again, we can say all non metas are basically useless on super teams, though. Are you for real? Or are you just saying it for shock value? Lets compare
Batman

Batman is an Omnipath
Batman has knowledge of Strategy and Tactics beyond 99% of comic book characters
Batman has Wealth and resources 2nd to few in comics
Batman is 1 of the 5 smartest men in the DCU
Batman is the greatest detective presently being published
Batman is among the top 10 greatest MA in comics
Batman is 1 of the greatest Ninja in comics in his ability to remain Invisible, Undetectable, Escape Artist, Breaking In. Disguise, Lip reading, Multi Linguist and other skills

Hawkeye

Hawkeye is among the best archers in the MU (Batman is also see Omnipath)
Hawkeye is a pretty good acrobat (Batman is also see Omnipath)
Hawkeye is also pretty good with Japanee weapons (Batman is even better see Ninja, Omnipath plus those of other cultures and modern weapons)
Hawkeye is a decent MA (Batman is even better see Ninja, MA & Omnipath)

So what can Hawkeye do Batman can't do? Answer: 0
What can Batman do Hawkeye can't do? Answer: Too many to count suffice to say he brings everything Cap brings, plus those of BP PLUS more skills. I won't even get to the point on how his reasoning, science and tactics have save the day in the JL.


For you to say or imply that Hawkeye is just as valuable to the Avengers as Batman is to the JL is rank Fanboyism if not rank stupidity and ignorance of facts.

maxivitopowe
D man is dead

maxivitopowe
Also everyone in bats team could fill in his role

Silent Master
Originally posted by riv6672
More like the other way around.

No, Wolverine is useless and should be cut.

relentless1
lol @ batman being useless on the JLA, even Superman goes to him when its crunch time. the most dangerous man on the planet; Supermans own admission.

Silent Master
For the most part, Batman is worthless on the JLA

Digi
Originally posted by riv6672
Again, we can say all non metas are basically useless on super teams, though.

No, we can't at all. It depends on what they bring. For example, your Batman jab falls flat. He's very useful. More than many metas, in fact. You just have to think of something other than a major team-wide brawl for it to be obvious. The Dr. Midnight hate earlier is another prime example of this kind of tunnel vision.

relentless1
how many times has there been an all out JLA vs villain brawl and Batman is just standing in the chaos taking strategic point for the rest of the team? Maximizing their powers' potential by being the overall strategist and field commander, telling them where to go and all that. Batman being useless is far from the truth hater.

riv6672
Originally posted by Digi
No, we can't at all. It depends on what they bring. For example, your Batman jab falls flat. He's very useful. More than many metas, in fact. You just have to think of something other than a major team-wide brawl for it to be obvious. The Dr. Midnight hate earlier is another prime example of this kind of tunnel vision.

Well, considering i was joking, and personally am a fan of character over raw power, the human in superhuman if you will, i guess i should add more smilies to my posts...smile wink big grin

Silent Master
He makes a great support character that would work great directing them from the watchtower, but human level characters have no real business fighting alongside herald/top tier level characters, because it requires massive PIS/CIS for them to survive more than 10 seconds.

riv6672
Which is why i said it COULD be said.
I dont agree with that sentiment, personally. One of the worst things i've seen from fans over the years is basing their like of a character by how many planets, large ones mind you, not puny earth sized, they can take a whiz on and destroy.

To me a guy with a bow and arrow fighting huge odds and quipping is way more interesting...

Silent Master
That isn't what I'm saying, several of my favorite characters have low-end or zero powers....I'm just saying that they really shouldn't being fighting high-herald level characters. doing so just leads to massive jobbing ala Spider-man vs Firelord or Deathstroke vs JLA.

riv6672
I think you're right, but i think my enjoyment of these fights depends on how they're written.
The Spidey story was done well. The DS story, not so much.

cdtm
Originally posted by basilisk
Fantastic Four - has to be Ben or Johnny, and if I have to pick one I'll go with Ben.

Reed has the brains & tech and considering the things he's done over the years he can do more with prep against more powerful enemies than anyone else on the team. With a little prep he could solo the rest of the team. Sue has the most power and with no prep could solo the rest of the team, and the whole PMS aspect of her modern personality makes her a dangerous opponent. Johnny's flame and flight come in handy too and he has the nova blast, potentially the team's most devastating single attack. As for Thing... he has strength. No speed, no flight, no particular brains, no other powers.

If they need a building held up? Sue can do it with force fields.
Need to smash down a wall? Sue can probably do something with ff or Johnny can blast it.
Need to fight a brick? If he's Thing level or lower Sue can probably beat him with ff. If he's more powerful than Thing she probably still has a better chance with her power levels these days.


JLA - Aquaman. The guy can just swim fast. OK just kidding, Black Canary or Green Arrow. They are both kind of redundant and underpowered, but no denying the archers are useful sometimes, just ask Hawkeye.


JSA - that patriot/america guy, or whoever that guy with the whip was. Don't remember him or his name, can't even be bothered googling him. He has no right to be on that team.


Defenders - Nighthawk. I once made a thread about who can Nighthawk actually defeat and I think the conclusive answer was nobody. I don't think he ever won an actual fight. I think he hit Spider-Man across the room once which was probably the pinnacle of his career.


I will have to think about some of the others.

Agreed Thing's the weakest member of the team.

But Sue can't keep her shield up all the time.. Without Ben there to take point and play the tank, there's plenty of times where the team would have been screwed..

Johnny's basically the dps guy, while Ben's the tank. Both guys have their uses, but Johnny's a little more niche, while having a meat shield is useful almost all the time..

dyajeep
Fantastic Four - either Thing or Torch
Defenders - Namor
Avengers - Steve Rogers
X-men - Wolverine
Justice League - Batman

cdtm
Originally posted by Digi
No, we can't at all. It depends on what they bring. For example, your Batman jab falls flat. He's very useful. More than many metas, in fact. You just have to think of something other than a major team-wide brawl for it to be obvious. The Dr. Midnight hate earlier is another prime example of this kind of tunnel vision.

Yeah, and when it comes to team comics, it's usually the brawn that ends up being the most useless guy in the room.

Hell, Superman and Captain Marvel are the last guys you'd call useless, yet when Jurgens and Giffen was writing, they played meat shield while guys like Batman, Booster, Beetle, and even Ice were the ones who saved the day (Ice beat Starbreaker!)

SquallX
Originally posted by relentless1
how many times has there been an all out JLA vs villain brawl and Batman is just standing in the chaos taking strategic point for the rest of the team? Maximizing their powers' potential by being the overall strategist and field commander, telling them where to go and all that. Batman being useless is far from the truth hater.

Batman is pretty damn useless actually. The JL doesn't need Batman to command anything. Batman is there just to be there and forcing PIS?CIS into the scenario to make him worth something.

Nothing Bruce can come up with that Wonder Woman can't come up with. What's even worse is that Diana is a warrior breed to do combat. Especially in the NDCU, where she learned combat from the God Of War himself.

So tell me, what does Batman have strategic wise against the God Of War himself, or her pupil?

SquallX
Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, and when it comes to team comics, it's usually the brawn that ends up being the most useless guy in the room.

Hell, Superman and Captain Marvel are the last guys you'd call useless, yet when Jurgens and Giffen was writing, they played meat shield while guys like Batman, Booster, Beetle, and even Ice were the ones who saved the day (Ice beat Starbreaker!)

That's PIS/CIS. Especially when it concerns Marvel. The guy has the wisdom of Solomon, yet a mere human can out perform him?

Digi
FF shouldn't even be in this thread. Love them or hate them, they're a very balanced team, with powers, skills, and personalities.

riv6672
Real good point(s) on the FF.
I posted last week or so, that Sue should be the leader, with Reed in his more comfortable science role.
Other than that they really are a good super team, but an even better team of explorers.

basilisk
Originally posted by SquallX
Batman is pretty damn useless actually. The JL doesn't need Batman to command anything. Batman is there just to be there and forcing PIS?CIS into the scenario to make him worth something.

Nothing Bruce can come up with that Wonder Woman can't come up with. What's even worse is that Diana is a warrior breed to do combat. Especially in the NDCU, where she learned combat from the God Of War himself.

So tell me, what does Batman have strategic wise against the God Of War himself, or her pupil? I agree that often the element of PIS/CIS is there with guys like Batman in order to have them survive fights that even the big guns struggle in.

But as far as the command & strategy aspects go, Batman brings more to it than just combat and tactics - it's often his deductive reasoning and detective skills that allow him to pick up on critical clues and advantages that the others miss. And what does it matter if WW is trained by the God of War? Batman is just overall portrayed as a smarter character - there's no reason why his natural aptitude for that side of things is not at least as good as hers or better. You could send most people to the best mathematics schools in the world for years and they wouldn't turn out to be a mathematician comparable to say Srinivasa Ramanujan with his minimal training. Likewise for people like Edison, Faraday & many others. Bats is just supposed to be one of those exceptional individuals.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by SquallX
Batman is pretty damn useless actually. The JL doesn't need Batman to command anything. Batman is there just to be there and forcing PIS?CIS into the scenario to make him worth something.

Nothing Bruce can come up with that Wonder Woman can't come up with. What's even worse is that Diana is a warrior breed to do combat. Especially in the NDCU, where she learned combat from the God Of War himself.

So tell me, what does Batman have strategic wise against the God Of War himself, or her pupil?

Financing. Well, I guess Luthor has stepped up to the role, but previously, Wayne Enteprises funded the JLA.

Not to mention, he gave a human perspective into big threats that still had an element of human psychology in them. Morrison's Rock of Ages storyline is a good example of this. Even Manhunter, for all of his detective skills, is nowhere near as good as Bruce at intuiting the human mind and its motivations.

golem370
Batman doesn't bring anything to the team that isn't already there.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by golem370
Batman doesn't bring anything to the team that isn't already there.

Someone's killed Orion. Who would you call?

The farmboy?
The Amazon?
Maybe the airforce jock with the wishing ring?

DCnU.
Things are a bit better now. We have Cyborg, who can scan the entire area effortlessly, patch into any database, etc etc.

But who would you actually trust to formulate strategies and tactics?

WW? Sure. But she has NOT done any of the legwork Give her a tactical problem, and sure, she could, as Goddess of War, work some strategy out, then send the others to gather what's necessary.

Batman has ALREADY done it. THAT'S what he brings to the table. His preparedness. It's the difference between having Einstein working out a maths problem for your team, and having a guy who cheated and already stole the answers before the test.

golem370
Anybody can do what he does you argument is he does it but if he wasn't there any number of members could recon plan and what ever else he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_OCpTbQvUk

lol at a compliment and little bit of a put down too from Superman

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by golem370
Anybody can do what he does you argument is he does it but if he wasn't there any number of members could recon plan and with ever else he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_OCpTbQvUk

Exactly. He does it. Flash could EASILY do it. But Barry is too naive. Superman could do it, too. But he won't. Neither would WW. Aquaman would do it...but he can't. Cyborg could also do it.....but he won't. GL? Lol. Hal sneaking about, compiling dossiers...yeah, right.

No one else does. There's all the ooh, so and so could do this, and so and so could do that....

But at the end of the day, know what actually matters? That it got done. Arguing off powersets is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, he has the character and the strength of will to do what the others wouldn't.

golem370
I am not talking about power set I am talking about is skills tech and smarts for one Batman doesn't have a power set lol

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by golem370
I am not talking about power set I am talking about is skills tech and smarts for one Batman doesn't have a power set lol

Lol they fall under 'powers'. Well, powers and abilities.

None of the other JLAers would do what he does. And thinks like he does. You can be the smartest guy in the room, but to out maneuver Lex Luthor? Sure, the others can obliterate him with a thought, or out build him in tech, or whatever - but Batman is the one who'd take him down.

Another example, canon as well, is with the new Power Ring. Sure, Cyborg could hack the ring (he's done it). Superman could punch her face off. Flash could outreact her, WW could slice it off her, etc etc.

Batman talked her down, before Lex could get his hands on it. Without killing her (which the ring was going to do).

golem370
Or Superman could grab her and removed the ring. Abilities not powers

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by golem370
Or Superman could grab her and removed the ring. Abilities not powers

Lol. Removing the ring, against her will, would have killed her. Congratulations, you've just condemned an innocent girl to die.

She had to give it up willingly.

You've just shown exactly why you need a Batman. Lol. Grab it off her indeed.

Btw, Deathlok/Cyborg. Awaiting you.

golem370
If she couldn't have been talked down then Batman would came up with a plain to kill her.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by golem370
If she couldn't have been talked down then Batman would came up with a plain to kill her.

OK?

Silent Master
That sounds an awful lot like PIS, IE most of the team had the ability to remove the ring....but the plot required Batman's plan to be the only "right" way.

cdtm
Originally posted by SquallX
That's PIS/CIS. Especially when it concerns Marvel. The guy has the wisdom of Solomon, yet a mere human can out perform him?

It's comics. Mere mortals (Like Reed or Adam Warlock) outperform "God" all the time.

Also, Wisdom of Solomon is usually portrayed as an active power. Billy has to access it to gain wisdom.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Silent Master
That sounds an awful lot like PIS, IE most of the team had the ability to remove the ring....but the plot required Batman's plan to be the only "right" way.

IOW, because it was a plot point that couldn't be punched, its stupid?

Mindship
Originally posted by cdtm
It's comics. Mere mortals (Like Reed or Adam Warlock) outperform "God" all the time.Thank you. Hence, why Stretcho is not the "useless" one in the FF.

Silent Master
Talking someone down is hardly a new or obscure tactic, it's not like Batman is the only one smart enough to think of it. without him there one of the other characters could have easily come up with it and nobody would be even blinked.

Silent Master
To be honest, talking someone down sounds more like a Superman tactic.

Existere
If the JLA's only function is to punch things of various sizes, and at different speeds, then Batman is the most useless (at least Aquaman can punch things underwater!)

If the JLA has functions outside of just combat, then Batman - the most resourceful member/best problem solver on the team - starts to shine.

riv6672
Fun reading!

krisblaze
Thor just had a useless member of his team cut sad

riv6672
Originally posted by krisblaze
Thor just had a useless member of his team cut sad
HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

krisblaze
Often times there's a lot of logistical stuff mid-battle, where sheer numbers are important. There's always somebody that needs carrying, some ship that needs lifting and stuff like that. So I guess in many cases they keep members from being useless.

SquallX
Originally posted by Existere
If the JLA's only function is to punch things of various sizes, and at different speeds, then Batman is the most useless (at least Aquaman can punch things underwater!)

If the JLA has functions outside of just combat, then Batman - the most resourceful member/best problem solver on the team - starts to shine.

How is Batman more resourceful than his teams?
Superman has the Fortress
Diana has the wisdom of Athena and the Gods
Cyborg is a walking computer tank
Marvel has the Wisdom of Solomon
Hal posses a ring with near limitless knowledge
Flash is a cop, and with his brain process he has no limit

Batman is useless. He's only around because of PIS/CIS.

janus77
Batman brings unlimited PIS, it is the BatForce, DC just need to acknowledge and embrace it.

How else can you explain Batman never - ever - being arrested for endangering minors for so many years?

SquallX
Originally posted by janus77
Batman brings unlimited PIS, it is the BatForce, DC just need to acknowledge and embrace it.

How else can you explain Batman never - ever - being arrested for endangering minors for so many years?

My god! what a mind phuck!

riv6672
Good to see points being made for the non metas.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by SquallX
How is Batman more resourceful than his teams?
Superman has the Fortress
Diana has the wisdom of Athena and the Gods
Cyborg is a walking computer tank
Marvel has the Wisdom of Solomon
Hal posses a ring with near limitless knowledge
Flash is a cop, and with his brain process he has no limit

Batman is useless. He's only around because of PIS/CIS.

Because none of them think like a villain. So less CIS, and more CIP (as stated in forum rules).

riv6672
On Batman's behalf, human or not, he's ruthless and paranoid, owing to the very lack of power we're debating.
He can think of ways to take out metas even the metas wont think of.

relentless1
three word for all you batman haters : tower...of...babel

Silent Master
What about it?

DarkSaint85
Yeah...even I wouldn't use that lol, and I've been defending Bats.

Digi
We're actually discussing if the goddamn Batman is useful or not. What has this forum become?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Digi
We're actually discussing if the goddamn Batman is useful or not. What has this forum become?

A bunch of heathens, that's what. Temp bans for all of them!!!

Digi
Originally posted by riv6672
Real good point(s) on the FF.
I posted last week or so, that Sue should be the leader, with Reed in his more comfortable science role.
Other than that they really are a good super team, but an even better team of explorers.

thumb up

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
A bunch of heathens, that's what. Temp bans for all of them!!!

thumb up

SquallX
Originally posted by relentless1
three word for all you batman haters : tower...of...babel

You mean the story line were batman's paranoia almost killed his teammates? Where he was outsmarted so badly because in his am better than anyone mindset he put his friends lives in danger?

cdtm
Most versions of the Autobots: Bumblebee.

Current BB died saving the universe though, so currently Wheelie.

Surtur
Originally posted by janus77
Avengers - Thor.

Hawkeye's an obvious choice, but I think this is a reasonable one too.

For the more powerful Avengers line-up, Thor is basically just another flying brick, but Hype does the "Hulk-level" stuff, Skinny starman does the Silver Surfer-lite feats etc.

The "One man army" stuff, demolishing the opposition, that's Hulk's forte more often than not.

And we don't see him doing anything at all, when it comes to magic, so yes ... extraneous team member.

Thor is a flying brick..who also happens to have a plot device magic hammer his daddy gave him. So how is he just another flying brick? Most flying bricks can't dimension dump people or do things like counter Magneto's powers(which the hammer has done at one point) etc. Heck, at one time the hammer could stop time.

Thor does "Hulk level" stuff too. The Midgard Serpent was large enough to wrap itself around the planet and Thor lifted that sucker up.

Originally posted by riv6672
On Batman's behalf, human or not, he's ruthless and paranoid, owing to the very lack of power we're debating.
He can think of ways to take out metas even the metas wont think of.

Here is the thing though: plenty of characters on the JLA are actually quite smart, they just tend to not act that way whenever Batman is around. For example Superman? Pretty damn smart, maybe not as good a detective as Batman, but with access to his fortress, etc.? I could see him coming out with ways to "take out metas that other metas won't think of" as well. It's just since he has powers he rarely needs to resort to that.

So yeah, I can kind of see where someone is coming from to say Batman is potentially useless. It should be a pretty telling sign that characters suddenly become stupider when Batman is around, just so he can contribute something.

DarkSaint85
Smarts isn't just enough, that's the problem.

It's the difference between the Punisher and Reed, for example. Or Doc Ock and Peter Parker.

Rulk and Hulk (Savage, of course). Fixit/WWH and Professor Hulk. Superman is smart, he has the tech, he's a prize-wining investigative reporter, and a scientist of the House of El, one of the premier science families in a culture steepd in science.

That does not, however, mean that he'd have a plan to take someone down.

Like I said before - it's the difference between having Einstein on your team for a maths test, and having a guy who's already cheated and memorised the answers to the test. Nobody here is saying Batman is smarter than the others.

abhilegend
Batman is never useless, if anything Wonder Woman is the most useless of all of them. Strength? Superman. Speed? Flash. Energy attacks? GL. All she's useful for is her lasso.

DarkSaint85
Who will take notes???

Surtur
Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman is never useless, if anything Wonder Woman is the most useless of all of them. Strength? Superman. Speed? Flash. Energy attacks? GL. All she's useful for is her lasso.

She comes a lot closer to the strength and speed of those guys then Batman does. So in a fight, I don't see how she would be more useless then Batman, especially a Batman who has not had a chance to prep.

You assume that if a certain person has the highest level of strength on the team..that for some reason that means anyone with the same power, but at lower levels will be of no use at all? That isn't quite accurate, especially in comics where you have characters forgetting their various super powers left and right..

DarkSaint85
Tbh, that lasso is super useful.

Deadline
Hate to say this but Luke Cage could come under this category. The fight with Raganarok illustrates this. Danny hit Ragna harder than Luke Cage and Wolverine did the most damage. I know Wolverine is a brick killer but Luke Cage is also a brick it's his job to deal with bricks and all he did was punch Ragnarok once.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Surtur
She comes a lot closer to the strength and speed of those guys then Batman does. So in a fight, I don't see how she would be more useless then Batman, especially a Batman who has not had a chance to prep.

You assume that if a certain person has the highest level of strength on the team..that for some reason that means anyone with the same power, but at lower levels will be of no use at all? That isn't quite accurate, especially in comics where you have characters forgetting their various super powers left and right..
But any threat who Superman can't take out with strength is going to beat the shit out of her.

She is second in everything and has nothing unique to offer other than her lasso. Batman does possess his smarts.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
But any threat who Superman can't take out with strength is going to beat the shit out of her.

She is second in everything and has nothing unique to offer other than her lasso. Batman does possess his smarts.

But there are some things you can't just punch your way through.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But there are some things you can't just punch your way through.
LIES!!!!

SquallX
Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman is never useless, if anything Wonder Woman is the most useless of all of them. Strength? Superman. Speed? Flash. Energy attacks? GL. All she's useful for is her lasso.

No.

Mindset
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But there are some things you can't just punch your way through. Which is why they have Batman.

relentless1
so what if his plans were stolen the point is that is how Batman is useful to the team and very very dangerous in general. The fact that he is aware of his shortcomings in the superpower department and has gone to great lengths to even the playing field, even against his own teammates shows that he is more ruthless, more cunning and more willing to take it that extra little bit to get the job done against those that have great advantage over him. He's the guy that doesn't care if you can one punch a planet he will plot in secret to find a way to beat you and a man that knows himself and his enemy is a very dangerous man indeed. Read Art of War noobs

cdtm
Originally posted by abhilegend
But any threat who Superman can't take out with strength is going to beat the shit out of her.

She is second in everything and has nothing unique to offer other than her lasso. Batman does possess his smarts.

If you're up against heavy magic, need a lie detector, or need someone absolutely immune to tp, then she's pretty useful. That, and her being in with pantheons.

Of course, on average Martian Manhunters far more useful, but he's usually wasted sitting on his ass playing operator at the base.

Silent Master
Originally posted by cdtm
Of course, on average Martian Manhunters far more useful, but he's usually wasted sitting on his ass playing operator at the base.

Which is where Batman should be.

krisblaze
It really depends on what they're facing.

Flash is the most useful for combat, GL for practical applications of power and Superman is a mix between the two.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by relentless1
so what if his plans were stolen the point is that is how Batman is useful to the team and very very dangerous in general. The fact that he is aware of his shortcomings in the superpower department and has gone to great lengths to even the playing field, even against his own teammates shows that he is more ruthless, more cunning and more willing to take it that extra little bit to get the job done against those that have great advantage over him. He's the guy that doesn't care if you can one punch a planet he will plot in secret to find a way to beat you and a man that knows himself and his enemy is a very dangerous man indeed. Read Art of War noobs

Except his plans were idiotic.

He effectively gave Superman a sundip.

DarkSaint85
Oh no, Superman's gone rogue! Luckily I have developed just the plan to deal with him!

By synthesising this isotope of Kryptonite, not only will he absorb more sunlight than usual, he'll also be driven mad with pain! Mwahaha this will stop him!!!

This is why Batman needs a Robin. To tell him when his plans are retarded.

Mindset
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh no, Superman's gone rogue! Luckily I have developed just the plan to deal with him!

By synthesising this isotope of Kryptonite, not only will he absorb more sunlight than usual, he'll also be driven mad with pain! Mwahaha this will stop him!!!

This is why Batman needs a Robin. To tell him when his plans are retarded. Hal is Batman's Robin.

He definitely has no other use.

riv6672
Originally posted by SquallX
No.
Definitely no.
The reality is, Superman can and has been taken out by forces Diana can tank.

-Pr-
I'd rather have Hawkeye than Wasp, tbh.

riv6672
So would i, power wise.
Both have proven yo be great leaders, though that really isnt the point here.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'd rather have Hawkeye than Wasp, tbh.
Its about time. Bada is useless.

Good to haveyyou back.

SquallX
Originally posted by riv6672
Definitely no.
The reality is, Superman can and has been taken out by forces Diana can tank.

Its ahbi, what you expect.

He believe Superman can do anything and beat anyone.

riv6672
I was trying not to go there, but its likely a case of WW being so close in power to Supes, minus a magic weakness, as to make him uncomfortable.

Still, its up to the individual's definition of useless, so...

abhilegend
Originally posted by SquallX
Its ahbi, what you expect.

He believe Superman can do anything and beat anyone.
Yeah, just look how effective Wonder Woman was in Superman: Doomed or in Final Crisis or Infinite Crisis or any large event............


Oh wait, she wasn't effective in her own event Amazons Attack............

Star428
Originally posted by SamZED
Avengers - Thor
JLA - Superman
The FF - Reed Richards


Come at me.


huh

A JLA without Big Blue is like a car without wheels. It makes no sense. Superman is the poster boy of the JLA afterall.

Star428
Originally posted by Silent Master
For the most part, Batman is worthless on the JLA


No, he's far from being worthless. His brains and tactical leadership are an important part of the team.

Star428
Are people actually claiming that Batman isn't the smartest JLA member? Seriously?

Bentley
Originally posted by Star428
Are people actually claiming that Batman isn't the smartest JLA member? Seriously?

He's only useful because Superman lets him shifty

Star428
I'm sorry but I just don't see how you could possibly think Clark is smarter than Bruce. I know Clark's not as dumb as a lot of people make him out to be. In fact, he's quite smart but Batman is the smartest JLA member, imo.


Oh, and just so you know, I'm a MUCH bigger Superman fan than Batman so I'm not basing my opinion on bias but on what I think is the truth.

Bentley
Batman depends on his guile to make anything at all, so he does smart stuff more often. I wouldn't say his smarts couldn't be effectively replaced by a bunch of other characters.

SquallX
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, just look how effective Wonder Woman was in Superman: Doomed or in Final Crisis or Infinite Crisis or any large event............


Oh wait, she wasn't effective in her own event Amazons Attack............

Because most writers loves sucking Superman's dick and knows little when it concerns characters like Diana.

Diana if written the right way, by an author that actually knows the Mythos of the Greek Pantheons would make her one of the most powerful DC Herald bar none.

Diana is giving an aspects of certain Gods, yet the author never uses it to it's abilities.

The Wisdom of Athena is one of the most dangerous ability Diana has in her disposal, but never make use of.

In Greek Mythos, few Gods matched Athena. Hell, she can even gave Ares, the God of War a run for his money in warfare. She is the Goddess strategic warfare for god sake.

abhilegend
So...............nothing but blaming the writers for the incompetency of a character? Gotcha.

But that doesn't explains how she was totally ineffective in her own event Amazons Attack or in War of the Gods and when Gail Simone, a WW fangirl wrote her. You'd think she would be kicking ass and taking names in those events.


Oh wait..........

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