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Round 1: Scourge as in Revan, TPM Maul, No amp for Malak

Round 2: All in their strongest incarnations, Malak is SF amped

All out

Round 1: Definitely Maul or Malak. Depends if you think Malaks superior force mastery beats out Mauls superior martial skill.

Round 2: I'mma say Scourge. Both of these guys are angry ****ers who he can get hefty boosts from, on top of his already exceptional prowess.

Maul.
Scourge.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Maul.
Scourge.

Maul
Malak

Malak.
Malak.

Maul Revan Scourge is trash tier, base Malak has no feats]
Malak

Actually, peak Scourge was a master warrior who could give Hot a good fight. It is most likely that he even lost on purpose. HoT by a lot of people is considered to be Revan's equal if not superior.

Originally posted by Sinious
Actually, peak Scourge was a master warrior who could give Hot a good fight.

My TOR lore isn't up to par. Wasn't he still being amped by the emperor?



Why? Because he defeated a weakened Vitiate?

Originally posted by Skybreaker
My TOR lore isn't up to par. Wasn't he still being amped by the emperor?





Well, Scourge's amp is permanent. He became immortal after Vitiate's ritual. So, you can't really separate that from him or even call it an amp.



Well, if HoT defeated full powered Vitiate, he'd be >>> Revan so even though Vitiate was weakened, its still impressive and that is not HoT's sole achievement.

When Scourge faced HoT, it was not Hot's peak version so I don't think he wins here for sure. I'd say he'd have the upper hand in round 2 though.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well, Scourge's amp is permanent. He became immortal after Vitiate's ritual. So, you can't really separate that from him or even call it an amp.


I was under the impression that he was actively being boosted by Vitiate.

I suppose this is a constant enough condition that trying to speculate on "baseline" Scourge would be quite meaningless.



No, but as you have pointed out, the HoT's a lot more powerful by the time he faces down Vitiate, who was weakened by an unspecified amount.



I just don't see him being on Revan's level. Why would Vitiate make his wrath powerful enough to potentially threaten himself, as Revan clearly was? He lost to, as you pointed out, a weaker HoT, and was feared by members of the Dark Council. ...ok?

Originally posted by Skybreaker
I was under the impression that he was actively being boosted by Vitiate.

I suppose this is a constant enough condition that trying to speculate on "baseline" Scourge would be quite meaningless.





Yeah, separating this from Scourge would be like separating Natemha ritual from Vitiate.



I've never said that. I don't think there is that much of a difference between Act 2 final and act 3 final. Its still a considerable amount of course. Vitiate was seriously weakened however. Considering that he was able to crush HoT and his jedi friends' defenses in an earlier confrontation without much trouble.




Revan wasnt a threat to Vitiate because of his power. It is only stated that Revan almost killed him which is the case only cause the Emperor did not take him seriously at first and underestimated him since the last time they've encountered, Vitiate was able handle him without a fight.

Hot vs Revan is debatable. Both would defeat Scourge however. Scourge may have lost to HoT on purpose in act 2 though. So we actually never saw what he is capable of in an all out fight.

As stated earlier, he can boost himself from both of his opponents' rages and he is the most experienced combatant here which would come in handy in a fight like this.

Maul maul.

The others are outclassed here.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah, separating this from Scourge would be like separating Natemha ritual from Vitiate.


Would it be? Vitiate's ritual permanently boosted his power; Vitiate could presumably withdraw his amp at his whim.



Neither option leaves you with the room to powerscale Scourge from HoT, and powerscale HoT from defeating Vitiate. Whether it's because the two incarnations of the Hero aren't of equal ability, or that the Vitiate HoT faced was significantly weakened, or a combination of both, it doesn't tell us much about Scourge.



I don't see how Vitiate underestimated Revan at all, seeing as how he immediately goes for his most powerful attack (the mind-****). Revan was only at his mercy because he made a dumb tactical mistake of giving Vitiate enough time to charge his powers (on a DS nexus, at that).

After being saved by Meetra, Revan and his quite pedestrian support stood, by Scourge's premonitions, a good chance of defeating the Emperor. That cannot be said of the Hero's gang, or anyone in TOR, for that matter. Revan is on a completely different level, and a SF empowered Malak gave him a serious fight. There's no indication that Scourge could do this.



Even with backup, HoT was trashed by the Emperor. It's possible that by the end of the third act there would be a reasonable debate, but then by that point there's no indication Scourge would still stand a chance anyway.



I understand that position and admit that it is extremely difficult to powerscale combatants from different eras. My current position is that Malak's performance against Revan is a more impressive feat than anything we've seen from Maul or Malak.

Originally posted by Selenial
Maul maul.

The others are outclassed here.
I lol'ed.

Vitiate was stronger in TOR then he was in Revan. And Revan never posed a threat to Vitiate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I lol'ed.

I wasn't the only one then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate was stronger in TOR then he was in Revan. And Revan never posed a threat to Vitiate.

He certainly did. Also, how much stronger do you think he became?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He certainly did. Also, how much stronger do you think he became?

How, exactly? He couldn't get close enough to threaten Vitiate with his blade and none of his Force powers could cause any damage to him. His TK was ineffective, his lightning wouldn't be powerful enough, he couldn't reflect anything strong enough to harm Vitiate and his Force in Balance attack merely knocked over a distracted Vitiate. To me it seemed Revan was almost literally incapable of hurting him.

Well he was continuously growing more powerful and was draining the Hand and Revan for centuries. So I wouldn't say it was insubstantial.

Well, for one thing, the battle was closely matched enough that Scourge had countless visions where both succeeded.



Not yet.



Oh?



He hurled him across a room.



Again, Scourge had premonitions of several scenarios where Revan came out on top. He clearly had the weapons necessary to slay Vitiate.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, for one thing, the battle was closely matched enough that Scourge had countless visions where both succeeded.

After he and Meetra arrived. Plus I said almost incapable, obviously theres the possibility of Vitiate losing if he fought like a retard or had a heart attack or something.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not yet.

Vitiate could smack him back or stop him in his tracks with his force powers with impunity.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh?

Revan could barely move an Imperial Guardsman with TK, so no luck there. And his lightning isn't potent enough to cause Vitiate any damage, considering his own reflected lightning did nothing more than singe his robes and push him back a bit.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He hurled him across a room.

A distracted Vitiate with most of his power engaged elsewhere and Revan didn't use TK.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, Scourge had premonitions of several scenarios where Revan came out on top. He clearly had the weapons necessary to slay Vitiate.

Scourge was seeing possibilities. Apparently even remote ones. The fact that he saw it doesn't mean it was likely or plausible. Vitiate was kicking Revan's ass up to that point and Revan was still very wounded. I doubt Meetra and Scourge would be that much of a challenge for Vitiate to curbstomp either.

Lmfao @ Neph being stupid.

HoT > Revan, eat it nerd.

I just finished HoT's story. My thoughts of his strength has lowered... below Skwalker.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao @ Neph being stupid.

Yeah, not one of his finer moments.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I just finished HoT's story. My thoughts of his strength has lowered... below Skwalker.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd say he's equal to Luke either. Yoda for sure though.

None of his feats from Act 1 or 2 put him above Anakin, and all his feats from Act 3 were done with Scourge.
The only possible impressive fight was him beating Vitiate at the end, but the dude was weakened.

And where do you put Nox and the Barsen'thor?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox
Higher then Tython.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Barsen'thor?
Lower then Tython.

Nox and Thor are basically exact equals imo with the Hero being above either of them. Theres no large gap between them.

But how do you rate the Barsen'thor lower than the Hero and the Hero lower than Anakin when the Barsen'thor is more powerful than even Dooku?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox and Thor are basically exact equals imo with the Hero being above either of them. Theres no large gap between them.

But how do you rate the Barsen'thor lower than the Hero and the Hero lower than Anakin when the Barsen'thor is more powerful than even Dooku?
You underestimate Nox.

Because she isn't more powerful then Dooku.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You underestimate Nox.

Because she isn't more powerful then Dooku.

You underestimate 'Thor.

Feats suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You underestimate 'Thor.

Feats suggest otherwise.
No.

No.

Aside from Maul level TK, which Dooku has honestly, what exactly do you think the Barsen'thor has that Dooku doesn't?

Lol @ Maul level TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
obviously theres the possibility of Vitiate losing if he fought like a retard or had a heart attack or something.


That would be the lamest death in the entire history of SW

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox and Thor are basically exact equals imo with the Hero being above either of them. Theres no large gap between them.

My god this is pathetic.



Vitiate was able to bat away the Hero in a cutscenes as well. Still ended up with a lightsaber in his gut.



Except it was explained earlier in the text that the reason Scourge was having so many of these visions was because the battle was so close.

Also, Thor>Nox. Umad Ant?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol @ Maul level TK.
You're right. Probably a little lower than Maul level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
My god this is pathetic.

The heart attack part was facetious and a joke. My main point was that Revan did have a chance if Vitiate performed very poorly and the team was very effective.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vitiate was able to bat away the Hero in a cutscenes as well. Still ended up with a lightsaber in his gut.

He was exhausted at that point, while the Hero was still going strong. He wasn't able to keep her away any longer. Revan's only shot is striking Vitiate with his lightsaber sure, but I don't see him replicating the HoT's victory.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Except it was explained earlier in the text that the reason Scourge was having so many of these visions was because the battle was so close.

No it wasn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You're right. Probably a little lower than Maul level.

Yeah, it was. IIRC Scourge came to Revan about his visions and how he couldn't make sense of them. Revan said something about how the future was unclear because the odds of either side winning were so close.

Not in my copy I'm afraid. He says the future is unclear because its always in motion.

You people love to forget about that book. I don't blame you.

No, Scourge came to Revan when he saw the single vision of him, Meetra, and Revan getting their asses kicked. He saw the flood of visions during the fight, with the team taking some wins, and vitiate taking some.

I'll see if I can find it when I get home. Heard it while searching for something else in the audiobook recently.

Maul takes either of them out, Malak would beat Scourge though