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Round 1: Koon is alone
Round 2: Koon fights alongside kit fisto.

I feel like round 1 could either way. But that's just me.

Round two will go to Team imo.

Inb4 Aurbere massive rant on favorite character.

I'd go Koon and Team, just so he doesn't kill me... *cowers*

When you say Decieved Malgus, do you mean pre or post waifu?

Originally posted by Selenial
Inb4 Aurbere massive rant on favorite character.

I'd go Koon and Team, just so he doesn't kill me... *cowers*

I don't really go for massive rants (besides that one I recently posted on SWTOR), but I'm not really that bad when it comes to Plo, am I?

Malgus

Plo wins the first round due to being a better duelist primarily, and secondly because he's powerful enough himself to prevent himself from being overwhelmed.

Team definitely wins the second round, they're both better duelists than Malgus, and Fisto in particular is a very fast fighter. They have good synergy from working together frequently. Even if Malgus removed Fisto from the equation with telekinesis/lightning, he'd still lose to Koon, and he certainly isn't beating them both in a duel.

I don't think Plo's that much of a better duelist. At least not enough to make up for Malgus' significant Force advantage. He's probably not powerful enough to prevent himself getting overwhelmed.

If this is Malgus at the end of Decieved, he can probably one-shot Plo and then Kit.

He's definitely better by a tier or so. And he's noted as coming from a powerful line of Force sensitives. His power feats aren't shabby either.

I haven't quite finished Deceived so I'm not sure on that front.

Nah. Even before the Empire invaded Malgus was considered one of the greatest warriors they had. He's fought with and beaten some of the top duelists of his time. Koon isn't shabby, but he's not near Malgus with that level of power.

He's easily Dooku level by that point, maybe higher.

That's an impressive accolade but it doesn't outstrip Koon's dueling feats or elevate Malgus to Koon's level, and RotE era had better duelists than Malgus' time. Koon's duels with Ventress and Savage respectively, and being held in high regard by Darth Maul alongside Mace Windu, should place him comfortably above Malgus as a duelist IMO.

Malgus hasn't ever dominated anyone in the Force as powerful as Koon, who has some decent feats like mind tricking 20 people and collapsing a fair portion of a cave without too much effort, and collapsing a canyon alongside Jinn and Tholme. I mean, even if Malgus was able to throw Koon around somewhat I doubt it'd be more pertinent than Koon's edge in sabers, which is primarily how Malgus' fights begin and end.

Koon lost to Savage. So I'm not sure how that puts him above Malgus. And his Ventress feat is impressive, but probably just a low feat for her. Era bias and Maul's opinions don't impress me.

I'm pretty sure he has. Malgus Force pwned a Jedi who collapsed two large buildings on top of him, after he'd held up the rubble of them and blown them away. He has tossed around Satele and Aryn Leneer, both of whom I consider above Koon with the Force, plus Zallow too. After his amp he easily overpowered Aryn with the Force. He also Force pwned Adraas. So no, he doesn't really end most of his fights in a straight duel. He also overloaded a squadron of fighters with a Force Scream. His lightning burned a hole through a very powerful Jedi's chest even while overpowering his lightsaber defense and has killed 3 Jedi at once with a burst of it.

Malgus wins solidly. I'm not giving Koon an edge over Zalllow to be honest, let alone Aryn.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Koon lost to Savage. So I'm not sure how that puts him above Malgus. And his Ventress feat is impressive, but probably just a low feat for her. Era bias and Maul's opinions don't impress me. He lost to Savage because his mask was ripped off, not through technical skill. He dueled evenly with Savage for the most part. It isn't a low showing for Ventress just because you say so. It's not era bias - I'm just saying, Malgus being the best of his era doesn't necessarily make him as good as Koon because Koon fought during a time of superior duelists. I have no preference based on era. Maul's opinion certainly holds weight seeing as Sidious brought him close to the Jedi temple and had him studying prominent Jedi throughout his training, and Maul is a better duelist than Malgus undoubtedly.


I haven't ever heard of that Jedi being the one to drop two large buildings on Malgus. I'd appreciate a quote if you don't mind. Malgus landed a single Force push on Satele during the time of the Hope trailer, where IIRC Satele didn't have any feats on Koon's level just yet. Aryn Leneer I can't speak on, and Zallow is less powerful than Koon.

I'm aware of the other feats you mentioned, and again, to my knowledge Adraas doesn't have power feats on Koon's level. Malgus ended all of his duels in the trailer-based fights with his saber and has allowed injured Jedi in the past to pick up their sabers and challenge him physically only to be killed by Malgus' saber. Take Koon's personal power and Malgus' lack of ability to simply wreck him, and Koon's superior dueling skill, and I see it as more likely that Koon would win by outdueling Malgus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malgus wins solidly. I'm not giving Koon an edge over Zalllow to be honest, let alone Aryn. ...

Even members like NewGuy conceded Aryns power is Maul level

What are her power feats?

I mean overall power, like he considers them equals.
Pretty sure Bantha or Neph made a respect thread for her..

Last I recall, there is a respect thread for Aryn in the SWTOR forums.

Hmm, her feat where she stopped her and Zeerid's fall would definitely put her on Maul's level if the circumstances hold true (that they survived a fifty kilometer fall travelling at terminal velocity and she managed to stop them completely for a fraction of a second). Although nothing in the quote I read indicated anything other than that they were falling and she slowed their descent.

Any respect thread on SWTOR forums should not be considered a respect thread.
www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t593826.html : Here is one good ol' Bantha made.

Yeah that's the one I read, nice thread.

But yeah, thoughts on various forum boards:
SWTOR Forums: Takes everything to an extreme in terms of feats.
ComicVine: Takes everything to an extreme2 in terms of feats.
StarWarsForums: Takes everything to an extreme73874 in terms of feats.
KillerMovies: Has a nice balance of wankers and haters in all areas.

IIRC they dropped from a carrier without parachutes. On another occasion, Aryn leapt off of a building that was nearly a hundred meters tall.

Other than that, she has used a Force Push that was able to topple two Alderaanian statues, broke Malgus's telekinetic hold on his lightsaber, and she's thrown a 6 car cargo tram. She has a few other showings, but those are the standouts.

I believe she also had some pretty ridiculous sense feats too.

She also has some pretty wild speed feats, and dueled evenly with Darth Malgus, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But yeah, thoughts on various forum boards:
SWTOR Forums: Takes everything to an extreme in terms of feats.
ComicVine: Takes everything to an extreme2 in terms of feats.
StarWarsForums: Takes everything to an extreme73874 in terms of feats.
KillerMovies: Has a nice balance of wankers and haters in all areas.

I don't know the other forums well enough, but I must say that to me this one seems more varied in terms of opinions compared to CV.

Originally posted by ILS
He lost to Savage because his mask was ripped off, not through technical skill. He dueled evenly with Savage for the most part. It isn't a low showing for Ventress just because you say so. It's not era bias - I'm just saying, Malgus being the best of his era doesn't necessarily make him as good as Koon because Koon fought during a time of superior duelists. I have no preference based on era. Maul's opinion certainly holds weight seeing as Sidious brought him close to the Jedi temple and had him studying prominent Jedi throughout his training, and Maul is a better duelist than Malgus undoubtedly.

Merely dueling with Savage isn't impressive. Malgus defeated Ven Zallow in a duel, the same guy who moments earlier was blitzing some of the greatest Sith Warriors in the Empire. And he defeated the Jedi Battlemaster in Keo Cen Darach, who showed extremely impressive skill and force power in the duel. The guy was wielding a double-bladed lightsaber in one hand, he was pretty damn good. And he more than held his own with Aryn Leneer, who was better than both of them.

Maul's opinions aren't worth much. This is the same guy who thought he could solo the Jedi Temple. And that definitely IS era bias. PT characters aren't better just because you think the era had stronger duelists. And a mid-tier duelist from that era isn't "a tier or so" above the best duelist of another era just because of that.

Originally posted by ILS
I haven't ever heard of that Jedi being the one to drop two large buildings on Malgus. I'd appreciate a quote if you don't mind. Malgus landed a single Force push on Satele during the time of the Hope trailer, where IIRC Satele didn't have any feats on Koon's level just yet. Aryn Leneer I can't speak on, and Zallow is less powerful than Koon.

I'm aware of the other feats you mentioned, and again, to my knowledge Adraas doesn't have power feats on Koon's level. Malgus ended all of his duels in the trailer-based fights and has allowed injured Jedi in the past to pick up their sabers and challenge him physically only to be killed by Malgus' saber. Take Koon's personal power and Malgus' lack of ability to simply wreck him, and Koon's superior dueling skill, and I see it as more likely that Koon would win by outdueling Malgus.

"The Jedi held his ground. At twenty meters, the Jedi raised his lightsabers aloft to either side of him and drew them both down in a flourish.

Too late the rumbling of the falling buildings penetrated the haze of Malgus' anger. An avalanche of duracrete and transparasteel crashed down on him from either side of the street.

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged. "

Malgus then considers the fact that he could easily destroy this Jedi in any number of ways but wants to get a lightsaber kill. Eventually though he just beats him with lightning, overpowering his lightsaber defense and burning holes in his chest. And this is before his massive amp at the end of Deceived.

Koon doesn't have anything to suggest he rivals Malgus in power or could survive his Force attacks. Collapsing a cave doesn't compare. I consider Adraas unleashing a Force wave powerful enough to crater the floor around him and kill a squad of soldiers equal to that. And he got handled by Zallow, let alone what Malgus did to him. Satele at this point was still powerful enough to shatter blast doors, grab lightsaber blades and blast 3 Sith into the air too. Malgus can smack Koon around with TK and lightning and probably beat him in a duel tbh. He rather easily wins.

Of course it is. Savage has provided a challenge to Kenobi on two occasions, performed well against Ventress, and can be regarded as a masterful combatant by wielding a Saberstaff alone.

Ven Zallow killed Sith who are lacking in substantial feats. Is he impressive for killing them? Certainly. Above Savage Opress? Not really. Malgus defeating Zallow is good but not as good as dueling evenly with Savage. Kao Cen Darach showed skill, and going by his status as a battle master denotes a certain level of skill but again, he doesn't have a lot of evidence in this area to make him as capable a combatant as the people Plo has fought. Plus, Kao was fatigued by the time Malgus poured on his final assault due to fighting him and Vindican by himself.

Maul was overconfident as hell, yes, but he's still an extremely capable duelist, and for him to regard Plo Koon as a "true test of skill", alongside someone as skilled as Mace Windu, only adds to my case.

You should probably stop insisting that I have some kind of bias against TOR or for PT. It isn't helping your case and is just completely false. The fact is TOR era does not have duelists on par with the likes of Sidious, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Maul, General Grievous, Anakin Skywalker and so on. Honestly I think some people generate an anti-PT bias because they believe so thoroughly that others are biased for PT. It's pretty silly, and it completely derails the debate itself.


Ahh, that is actually pretty impressive. I wasn't aware that the Jedi had been the one to collapse the buildings.

I still disagree that Malgus is even matching Koon in skill never mind beating him easily, but I can now agree with you that he has a substantial edge in power. I guess it mostly depends on how Malgus chooses to fight - if he focuses on dueling he'll more than likely lose.

Nephthys is right though, and if he bested NewGuy/Myself in a Aryn vs Maul argument, there's without a doubt he can best you in a Malgus vs Koon argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nephthys is right though, and if he bested NewGuy/Myself in a Aryn vs Maul argument, there's without a doubt he can best you in a Malgus vs Koon argument. ...that's nice

He didn't best me in a Maul vs Leneer argument, and I don't even recall you two having one.

And yeah, Plo Koon only has a chance if it's pre-waifu, and even then the odds are stacked against him.

Originally posted by ILS
...that's nice

Question: Has Plo Koon got any good showings with TK? The duel could go either way tbh, but i admittedly have no idea what Koon's force showings are.

It wasn't an insult, but rather instead a compliment to Nephthys's non Bane of Revan related debating skills.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Question: Has Plo Koon got any good showing with TK? The duel could go either way tbh, but i admittedly have no idea what Koon's force showings are. I've already mentioned his best TK showing which is the cave feat, but honestly other than that he's not got much.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He didn't best me in a Maul vs Leneer argument, and I don't even recall you two having one.

And yeah, Plo Koon only has a chance if it's pre-waifu, and even then the odds are stacked against him.
He did bruh. I'll find it when I get home. You conceded Aryn is Maul level. And I was providing you with emotional support.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He did bruh. I'll find it when I get home. You conceded Aryn is Maul level. And I was providing you with emotional support.

With the Force or as a duellist?

Both.

Originally posted by ILS
Of course it is. Savage has provided a challenge to Kenobi on two occasions, performed well against Ventress, and can be regarded as a masterful combatant by wielding a Saberstaff alone.

Ven Zallow killed Sith who are lacking in substantial feats. Is he impressive for killing them? Certainly. Above Savage Opress? Not really. Malgus defeating Zallow is good but not as good as dueling evenly with Savage. Kao Cen Darach showed skill, and going by his status as a battle master denotes a certain level of skill but again, he doesn't have a lot of evidence in this area to make him as capable a combatant as the people Plo has fought. Plus, Kao was fatigued by the time Malgus poured on his final assault due to fighting him and Vindican by himself.

Maul was overconfident as hell, yes, but he's still an extremely capable duelist, and for him to regard Plo Koon as a "true test of skill", alongside someone as skilled as Mace Windu, only adds to my case.

You should probably stop insisting that I have some kind of bias against TOR or for PT. It isn't helping your case and is just completely false. The fact is TOR era does not have duelists on par with the likes of Sidious, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Darth Maul, General Grievous, Anakin Skywalker and so on. Honestly I think some people generate an anti-PT bias because they believe so thoroughly that others are biased for PT. It's pretty silly, and it completely derails the debate itself.

And merely dueling him for a while doesn't indicate that Koon is equal to him. He still lost. And anyway, dueling Savage is more of a test of your physical abilities than your skill. I consider Ahsoka more skilled than freaking Savage.

Lacking substantial feats, but still considered among the greatest Sith Warriors alive at the time. And Zallow crushed them and was blitzing them. It's an incredibly impressive feat. Zallow was also well above other Jedi in teh battle at the time, including Kellian Jarro and Corin Tok, two highly impressive Jedi. And Koon isn't above Savage Opress, so I don't know what you're on about there. Zallow doesn't need to be above Savage to be on par with Koon. And Kao was more powerful and likely as skilled as Koon was, and Malgus beat him at his weakest and least skilled point.

I still don't rate that much at all. Maul's delusional. Who cares about his opinion. Besides, wasn't that from before TPM? It's hardly accurate in the CW considering even Savage beat Koon. Not really a true test of skill for someone like Maul.

Well you're really not helping your case when you start claiming that someone from the PT era is above one of the best duelists of TOR because that character is a mid-tier in the PT. How would you define that other than that you consider PT characters more skilled than those of other era's, because they're from the PT era? All you've done is try to justify your bias. But even a justifiable bias is still bias.

Originally posted by ILS
Ahh, that is actually pretty impressive. I wasn't aware that the Jedi had been the one to collapse the buildings.

I still disagree that Malgus is even matching Koon in skill never mind beating him easily, but I can now agree with you that he has a substantial edge in power. I guess it mostly depends on how Malgus chooses to fight - if he focuses on dueling he'll more than likely lose.

I didn't say he'd beat Koon easily in skill, but he would beat him in lightsabers. He beat Zallow who was fast enough to blitz the finest Sith Warriors the Empire had, he matched Aryn who was fast enough to appear in multiple places at once and Malgus himself was fast enough that the world seemed frozen in time at one point. He's stronger than Aryn who was ale to throw him 30 meters with one hand and kicked Adraas hard enough to shoot him across a room and split a marble column in half. And he's much more powerful than Koon is, which adds a significant advantage to a lightsaber duel.

He's just all around better than Koon is in every way.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Question: Has Plo Koon got any good showings with TK? The duel could go either way tbh, but i admittedly have no idea what Koon's force showings are.

He collapsed a cave, so he's Orgus Din level.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It wasn't an insult, but rather instead a compliment to Nephthys's non Bane of Revan related debating skills. I don't really get why it's a competition. I'm pretty sure most people on this board have the basics of debating down, it's just a case of reaching the right conclusion on a fight based on comparing evidence. That's kind of the point - to share knowledge.

Originally posted by Nargaroth
With the Force or as a duellist?
Force. I recall them especially comparing speed feats and then NewGuy conceding that Aryn is better then he originally thought.

Saying that she's on Maul's level doesn't equate to losing a debate.

Does for me. :iwin:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force. I recall them especially comparing speed feats and then NewGuy conceding that Aryn is better then he originally thought.

I recall that her speed feats are on par with Anakin's, but I might be wrong. Oh, and the thread I mentioned was done by SWL.

Through power-scaling we can put Satele, Zallow and Aryn comfortably above the Jedi who collapsed two buildings on Malgus too, based on his performance against them. None of them should be underestimated.

1. It indicates a certain level of parity between them. You keep reiterating that "Koon lost" yet failing to make any mention of the fact that it was because of his mask, not a loss in terms of skill. Dueling Savage is most certainly a test of your skill as well, and the notion that Ahsoka is a better duelist than him is pretty preposterous IMO. Savage is a mixture of skill and physical stats, so I tend to tier him based on his overall fighting ability rather than raw skill, and in terms of raw fighting ability Savage, and by proxy Koon, are around Ventress' level, when you consider all of their common encounters with each other.

2. It isn't an "incredible" feat by any means, but it is impressive. It however doesn't put Zallow on Koon's level considering his relatively back and forth fight with Ventress. Ventress actually has impressive dueling feats, like dueling evenly with Kenobi, challenging Anakin frequently, forcing Mace to use "all of his skills" to repel her, and so on, so Koon dueling her with some parity puts him above both Malgus and Zallow.

Saying Kao is "likely" as skilled as Koon is pure conjecture on your part, and you again fail to make mention of context - Kao was fatigued when Malgus poured on his final assault.

3. Disregard it all you want. Yeah, it was from a few months prior to TPM IIRC, in the novel Shadow Hunter. Even then Maul's lightsaber training had been completed so he would be as skilled as he was during TPM. I don't think I need to go over why Koon didn't merely "lose" to Savage again.

4. I'm not saying Plo Koon is above Malgus purely because of what era is he from - I'm comparing their feats. I was saying that Malgus' accolade alone does not put him above Koon, because none of the duelists Malgus would have been presumably better than have Koon's feats. You can keep accusing me of bias but I don't really care, to be honest, I have nothing against TOR era and I've dabbled in more than just PT in my reading.


I think it'd be pretty hard to beat Koon in sabers considering Malgus isn't as good a duelist as Koon.

You've merely repeated Malgus' feats which I'm well aware of. Again, in my opinion the fight goes down depending on how Malgus chooses to fight, if he exercises his power advantage he can win, if he focuses on dueling he's probably going to lose.

I'm willing to agree to disagree with you if you feel like we're at an impasse? Because we're beginning to repeat some of our initial points now.

You are repeating your points because you are in denial over Malgus's superiority over Koon.

Yeah, I'd probably give Koon the nod over Zallow. The latter is absolutely on his level, though. Likewise, Koon won't be taking Malgus for a majority--especially if this is post-waifu.

Also, Savage's own skills are pretty vastly underrated tbh.

Round 1: Malgus

Round 2: team

Plo freezes him in a creek. /thread

Zallow has no real feats of skill to compare with Savage fighting evenly with Ventress, killing Adi Gallia, and being a pain to Kenobi/Skywalker. He is literally featless apart from dying to Malgus. Beating no-name fodder characters isn't as impressive as what we've seen from Savage, Malgus at this point is more powerful than Savage and likely as skilled.



Source for Maul saying he could solo the Jedi temple? He said Plo Koon would be a challenge for him, and Plo's skill is already attested to the feat of skill he performed by fighting Ventess with one arm. This is a superior feat to anything Malgus displayed at this time.

Plo wins via superior skill first round

And Malgus gets slaughtered the 2nd round

I've missed Carthage for this very reason^

I'd say Malgus wins round 1 in a good fight.

If Malgus as of Deceived struggled with Zallow (who is a solid duelist), he is going to gradually lose to Plo Koon who is easily more skilled.

I agree Malgus post-Eleena would take Koon out, but that iteration of Malgus would lose imo

Originally posted by ILS
I'm willing to agree to disagree with you if you feel like we're at an impasse? Because we're beginning to repeat some of our initial points now.

I forgot to reply but yeah. I'll quickly reply to a few things though.

Originally posted by ILS
1. It indicates a certain level of parity between them. You keep reiterating that "Koon lost" yet failing to make any mention of the fact that it was because of his mask, not a loss in terms of skill. Dueling Savage is most certainly a test of your skill as well, and the notion that Ahsoka is a better duelist than him is pretty preposterous IMO. Savage is a mixture of skill and physical stats, so I tend to tier him based on his overall fighting ability rather than raw skill, and in terms of raw fighting ability Savage, and by proxy Koon, are around Ventress' level, when you consider all of their common encounters with each other.

You can fight someone for a few pages without actually being equal to them. I wouldn't say Adi Gallia is Ventress/Obi-Wan level just because she lasted 2 minutes against Savage. And that Koon lost because of his mask is irrelevant. Why do you think Malgus can't do the same thing?

Ahsoka has more lightsaber skill than Savage. I didn't say she was better than him in a duel.

Originally posted by ILS
2. It isn't an "incredible" feat by any means, but it is impressive. It however doesn't put Zallow on Koon's level considering his relatively back and forth fight with Ventress. Ventress actually has impressive dueling feats, like dueling evenly with Kenobi, challenging Anakin frequently, forcing Mace to use "all of his skills" to repel her, and so on, so Koon dueling her with some parity puts him above both Malgus and Zallow.

I'd say it is an incredible feat, yeah. Blitzing the best Sith Warriors in the Empire would be like blitzing Magnaguards for the PT equivalent (the really good ones, not the shitty ones that even Ahsoka can beat). Even Anakin and Obi-Wan have issues with them sometimes.

IIRC Koon fought Ventress right at the start of the Clone Wars. So she wasn't nearly as good at that point as she was later. Dueling her doesn't indicate superiority to Malgus and Zallow in either case.

Originally posted by ILS
I think it'd be pretty hard to beat Koon in sabers considering Malgus isn't as good a duelist as Koon.

Malgus has superior speed, strength and durability (he can tank multiple lightsaber blows) plus he's considerably more powerful. Even if Koon does have the skill advantage, he's still outmatched and it won't matter.

He doesn't have superior speed to Koon?