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Maul as of TPM
Savage as of S5

Grievous as of RotS
Asajj as of S5

Setting: Hypori Ruins (Where Grievous fought Mundi, Ti, Aayla, etc.)

Who wins?

So is this peak Grievous or TCW Grievous?

Originally posted by ILS
So is this peak Grievous or TCW Grievous? Grievous as of Revenge of the Sith. So, peak. It's in the description, lol.

Movie Grievous is not peak, it is equal toTCW Grievous.

Microseries Grievous = nonexist, overhyped Grievous, and yeah it is much more powerful.

OCW GG solos

Your input is always appreciated, Marco.

Savage and TPM Maul's combine TK is more than enough to stomp even OCW / overhyped (and non-canon) GG alone.

Going with Grievous and Ventress.

Needless to say this would be an incredibly hard fought battle, but Grievous is the MVP for his duo. His physical stats exceed both Maul and Savage's in every category, and his skill exceeds Savage's significantly and rivals Maul's. His durability would allow him to soak any telekinetic assaults and after that the brothers have nothing else with the Force to take him out with, plus his general ferocity would prevent them from fully utilising TK. He would defeat Maul in a long, brutal fight. In Savage's case, he would defeat him pretty swiftly if I'm being totally honest, he's just a bad matchup for him.

Now, I believe Ventress would lose to either brother. She's roughly equal with Maul in sheer skill, but his strength, durability, endurance and possibly speed are all superior to hers, although the latter may be negligible. Ventress has him beaten in Force power by this stage but not by a ridiculous degree, and his durability could circumvent this. Overall, a fight between Maul and Ventress would be fairly long and hard, but Maul's strength would tax her, his durability would keep him going against her TK, and his superior martial skill and tactical ingenuity would give him a slim edge over her. Savage I believe would also take a slim edge over Ventress purely due to the fact his strength is too much for her, and her martial strikes would be negligible against his durability. Still, her superior skill and agility would keep her in the game against him for a long time. Ventress is a legitimate threat, she just lacks the physical power to truly rival them *** for tat.

Overall, Grievous would beat Maul, Savage would beat Ventress, Grievous would beat Savage.

Flip it around and Grievous would beat Savage and then aid Ventress in dispatching Maul, or at least defeat Maul after Ventress falls.

lmfao I said t*t for tat and it got censored.

Originally posted by ILS
Going with Grievous and Ventress.

Needless to say this would be an incredibly hard fought battle, but Grievous is the MVP for his duo. His physical stats exceed both Maul and Savage's in every category, and his skill exceeds Savage's significantly and rivals Maul's. His durability would allow him to soak any telekinetic assaults and after that the brothers have nothing else with the Force to take him out with, plus his general ferocity would prevent them from fully utilising TK. He would defeat Maul in a long, brutal fight. In Savage's case, he would defeat him pretty swiftly if I'm being totally honest, he's just a bad matchup for him.

Now, I believe Ventress would lose to either brother. She's roughly equal with Maul in sheer skill, but his strength, durability, endurance and possibly speed are all superior to hers, although the latter may be negligible. Ventress has him beaten in Force power by this stage but not by a ridiculous degree, and his durability could circumvent this. Overall, a fight between Maul and Ventress would be fairly long and hard, but Maul's strength would tax her, his durability would keep him going against her TK, and his superior martial skill and tactical ingenuity would give him a slim edge over her. Savage I believe would also take a slim edge over Ventress purely due to the fact his strength is too much for her, and her martial strikes would be negligible against his durability. Still, her superior skill and agility would keep her in the game against him for a long time. Ventress is a legitimate threat, she just lacks the physical power to truly rival them *** for tat.

Overall, Grievous would beat Maul, Savage would beat Ventress, Grievous would beat Savage.

Flip it around and Grievous would beat Savage and then aid Ventress in dispatching Maul, or at least defeat Maul after Ventress falls. Nice post.

Just because TPM Maul never demonstrated high level TK feats, that doesn't mean he is inferior to the likes of Asajj Ventress. Yes Ventress's high end feats are better than TPM Maul's TK, however her low end feats make this questionable.

Do you guys think that TPM Maul would get stomped by Dooku, or get beaten by Anakin's TK ? It's possible and I am not saying that would never happens (also we have an example about ANH Vader vs. Clone of TPM Maul battle), but you can't be sure about this. All we know Maul, as a Sith apprentice, has also high level force potential, and his only low end feat is getting stomp by Darth Sidious, that's irrelevant because Dooku or Anakin would be in the same situation with TPM Maul against Sidious. So we can't really know TPM Maul's real force potential at this stage. He has few offensive TK examples, which are force pushing TPM Kenobi and disarming him, and defeating force sensitive Drovian Silus, still Maul didn't get any stomp with the force unlike Ventress did. And that's why I don't think Ventress is superior to TPM Maul in the force, because we can't really be sure about this.

Ventress vs. TPM Maul would be a still good battle though. TPM Maul could win in a close fight.

He is inferior to Ventress because he has inferior feats to her - it's as simple as that. He wouldn't get choked by her or anything but she is more powerful than him at these stages in their lives.

Thanks for the info, star wars authority. All I am saying you can't be sure about this, and you can't. Because TPM Maul does not prefer to use TK unlike Ventress prefers, and Ventress has worse low end TK feats than TPM Maul.

Lets not forget, TPM Maul survived via using the power of the dark side, he wouldn't get survived if he was inferior to the likes of Ventress in the force imho.

Rage-mode Asajj was choking out Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. I wouldn't really consider it impossible for her to choke him. She probably could if pressed enough...

So what your telling me is that Maul could be more powerful than Ventress because he lacks feats?

Maul could be more powerful than her, because he did restrain his use of telekinesis significantly - but he just doesn't have the feats to back up being her superior. Saying "you just can't know" isn't an argument, it's speculation.

Originally posted by Dionysus
Rage-mode Asajj was choking out Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. I wouldn't really consider it impossible for her to choke him. She probably could if pressed enough... And Maul nearly collapsed a barracks with a Force Scream when he was 15 years old because he accidentally cut himself with a vibroblade. In terms of potential Maul at least rivals her power output. But in terms of actualized power, Ventress > TPM Maul.

Originally posted by Dionysus
Rage-mode Asajj was choking out Kenobi and Anakin at the same time. I wouldn't really consider it impossible for her to choke him. She probably could if pressed enough...

That's really inconsistent feat. With your inconsistent logic, Savage Opress probably force chokes Count Dooku if he presses enough... Or TCW Maul uses force blast to Darth Sidious...

I am talking about in consistency, while TPM Maul has better defensive TK (never get stomped by the likes of Dooku or TCW Anakin) and survived via using power of the dark side. He just lacks offensive showings. That is why I said you can't be sure about Ventress has better TK than TPM Maul because we've never seen his real potential, and his real potential was even surviving from being cut in half. Which would be impossible for Ventress to accomplish.

As for TCW showings of Maul, I am sure that they wouldn't think like ''hey lets make Maul very powerful in the force in this show'' , imho because he was already powerful as a 'Sith Lord'.

Originally posted by Marco1907
That's really inconsistent feat. With your inconsistent logic, Savage Opress probably force chokes Count Dooku if he presses enough...

You used to try to make this exact argument, lmfao.

Team 1.

Wait what? TPM Maul has better defensive TK showings because he was never directly TK'd by TCW Anakin or Dooku... because he never met them? But lacks offensive showings even though all of his prominent telekinetic feats involve offence? Baffling stuff yet again Marco.

Originally posted by ILS
And Maul nearly collapsed a barracks with a Force Scream when he was 15 years old because he accidentally cut himself with a vibroblade. In terms of potential Maul at least rivals her power output. But in terms of actualized power, Ventress > TPM Maul.

Maybe if he starts getting gutted by lightsabers he can let out a mighty roar and carry himself to victory! jk btw don't hurt me

But yeah, agreed.

Is that the generak grievous who just kick ass of ventress and durge in the original EU?
Or the one who get is ass kicked by sokan in episode III or TCW 2008?
TCW 2003 grievous.... Eeer what the ****.. Maul is pure bad ass remeber in episode I when he take his light saber staff, one blade bad ass, OMG 2 blade he made a badassness combo x2 !!!!
But he get is ass kicked, I've see attack per attack grievous fighting style in TCW 2003... Maul is good on defesiv, but he stay really offensif, against grievous you have to really dodge and stay far from him....

Didn't get any force assaults from ANH Vader ? ANH Vader should be at least equal to Count Dooku in the force.

Nevermind, all I am saying you can't be sure about how powerful TPM Maul was in the force, we have already an example about TPM Maul, which shows that he can use force waves even in this stage,

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales24-014_zps06a1efe5.jpg

Not to mention his survival via using the dark side of the force should be enough evidence to suggest that he was not inferior to Asajj Ventress imho.

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWars-TheCloneWars-TheSithHunters057_zps7d9c54c4.jpg

He was creating another force wave to survive (or force drain I am not sure)

Originally posted by Dionysus
Maybe if he starts getting gutted by lightsabers he can let out a mighty roar and carry himself to victory! jk btw don't hurt me

But yeah, agreed. I'll spare you, this time.

Good.. good...

Vader never tried, for whatever reason. He has power which he seldom uses in duels. This doesn't help your case that TPM Maul > Ventress. Vader wouldn't TK Ventress in a duel either in the same situation.

Of course we can't be exactly sure, but as it stands Ventress has better feats.

That feat is a good example of why Maul can approach Ventress at this stage.

Dude, Nova already debunked your theory of it being Force Drain, which is just illogical. A Force Wave? Maul kept himself alive by throwing out a telekinetic wave? That makes no sense.

He kept himself alive by self-rejuvenation. He drew on the Dark Side to sustain himself, like he was trained to do by Sidious. Nothing more. It's basically an extreme example of Force Augmentation focused towards keeping yourself alive under harsh or otherwise fatal conditions.

And for the record, Maul creating those arachnid limbs can be attributed to his advanced knowledge of Mechu-Deru and technology in general.

Well, he tried this ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/StarWarsTales09-031_zps21fa07a1.jpg

Which is different from directly attacking your opponent.

He still tried to attack him with the Force, which still proves my point.

Your point that TPM Maul can resist a Force choke from Vader or Dooku, because Vader TK'd a rock Maul was standing on?

*sigh

Half these arguments of Grievous beating Maul/Opress would only be relevant if the OP said OCW Grievous.

But it says ROTS Grievous. The one who got 2 arms cut off, then smacked with TK by Kenobi.

Even if this was OCW Grievous, Dooku handled him in Sabers, and tossed him around with Tk. Mace crushed his chest with Tk. And exactly who was the most powerful Jedi Grievous beat who wasn't exhausted at the time he beat them? Because Maul beat one of the most powerful Jedi of TPM era.

So Yeah, No, Maul beats GG, and Opress has already beaten Ventress.

Team 1.

Not to say Team 2 are out of their depth, or can't win. They can (Grievous has beaten Kenobi as well in an unaired TCW S6 episode). But they will lose a majority.

Bump.

Why does Darth Power have this amazing knack for just saying so many wrong things in quick succession? *le sigh

You were wrong about Vader not using his power in duels ILS, you meanie! Vader used his TK to hurl objects at Luke ESB and Roan Shryne. You amaze me sometimes, just like you denied evidence in the Tol Skorr debate you had. You frustrate me...

Well actually I'm basing what I say off of every source barring TCW, not just a couple of episodes from a cartoon.
The one who has a Form disadvantage against Kenobi? :/

There's a reason Grievous stalemated Mace Windu whilst Mace had the advantage of mobility over him, but lost to Kenobi, and Windu tells us himself. Kenobi is the best suited Jedi of them all to combat Grievous - because Soresu is ideal for staving off the type of offence Grievous produces. And it's hardly a slight against Grievous if he gets hit by TK, especially considering he has the durability to survive a lot of blunt force.

Even if this was *EU Grievous.

Dooku also had the benefit of training Grievous, and controlling what he learned.
Not to mention Dooku is one of the most powerful and skilled telekinetics in the mythos - the same can't be said for Savage who, while powerful, requires concentration just to Force choke one individual. And it's not like Grievous can't and hasn't dodge the type of telekinetic attacks Savage is prone to releasing.

So TPM Maul and Savage now both have Shatterpoint/The Force mastery required to carry this out? Give me a break.


How is this even an argument to begin with? You don't necessarily need to defeat someone in order to be considered a masterful duelist. But to answer your question, Grievous "handily" defeated a duo consisting of Asajj Ventress and Durge, and people tend to exaggerate how exhausted the Jedi on Hypori were. Sure, they weren't at 100% but they evidently kept their cool enough to give Grievous a challenge.

And then there's the various accolades Grievous has going for him along with his fight against Mace, both of which solidify his skill level.

You're entitled to that opinion and all, but I kind of doubt that you're going to convince me of all people that TPM Maul wins a fight which I believe he loses. Because he can't. Grievous has him beat in every form of durability, in strength, speed, stamina. He easily rivals Maul in terms of skill, is a more unpredictable fighter, a more adaptable fighter, and Maul's only true advantage which is telekinesis can for the most part be dodged, tanked or battered through by Grievous strength/durability - because TPM Maul isn't that powerful.

Savage doesn't hold a candle to Grievous in terms of speed or skill, and his main advantage which he usually sports - superior strength - is now gone. Along with superior durability. He may be able to offset Grievous with TK but he lacks the precision to target vital area, or to ragdoll him, or to really concentrate on the Force given Grievous' travel speed and ferocity.

Originally posted by carthage
You were wrong about Vader not using his power in duels ILS, you meanie! Vader used his TK to hurl objects at Luke ESB and Roan Shryne. You amaze me sometimes, just like you denied evidence in the Tol Skorr debate you had. You frustrate me... Go home Agen, you're drunk.

I'll be home later tonight.

I just realized something pretty fun. When Maul defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, who I'm presuming DP referred to, he forgot that Jinn himself was exhausted by the time Maul finished him off. Oh the irony...

Originally posted by ILS
Why does Darth Power have this amazing knack for just saying so many wrong things in quick succession? *le sigh


LOL

All my points were spot on. Maul defeated Qui-Gon, who for most the fight had aid from his accomplished apprentice. Qui-Gon was a Jedi Council Level Master, One of the Best swordsmen of his time, and possibly one of the best in the Orders history.

He also defeated Anoon Bondara, whose Lightsaber skills were "second to none."

If you think the "exhaustion" has been overstated, you need to go back to the episodes which makes specific mention of that both times Grievous beats Council Members. Opress on the other hand Eats Council Members for breakfast.

You say you're ignoring TCW Grievous. A bit odd don't you think considering 2 of the combatants are TCW Season 5 versions?

You keep going on about this bad ass EU Grievous, but none of that changes the fact that Kenobi Force TK smacked Grievous disarming him of his remaining weapons.

If KENOBI does that, what possible difficulty are Maul/Opress going to have TK'ing him?

If anything's overstated here it's Grievous's "weakness" to Kenobi's style. A style used by the majority of the Order.

The best point you've brought up is Grievous's fight against Ventress and Durge. Of course Grievous had them at a distinct disadvantage there, given that they had no clue who he was, or what he was capable of, but he knew them both. And that's all kind of moot, since Ventress has defeated him 1 on 1 since then, without even resorting to using TK.


Originally posted by ILS
I just realized something pretty fun. When Maul defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, who I'm presuming DP referred to, he forgot that Jinn himself was exhausted by the time Maul finished him off. Oh the irony...


LOL Is this a serious argument?

And why exactly was it that Qui-Gon was exhausted? From fighting Maul.

Why were the Jedi fighting Grievous exhausted? From fighting a Droid army prior to their engagement with Grievous.

And the second time Shaak Ti fiought Grievous, she was again exhausted from having just fought like 20 Magnaguards.

I'm aware of all of this, but a couple of clarifications.

Jinn was one of the best swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, as per the TPM novel.

Bondara's skills weren't second to none. He is objectively inferior to both Windu and Jinn, as per Shadow Hunter and I believe another source. When someone is described as "unparalleled" in SW it's a blatant exaggeration, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be unparalleled....

Throwing aside the pointless referencing of "Council Members" - because simply being on the council has nothing to do with your dueling skill...

It has been overstated. Yes, they were tired, but they weren't so exhausted that they needed to coddle up in a bacta tank otherwise they'd collapse from fatigue. They weren't quite 100%, but they were still more than capable of fighting and providing a challenge. Acting like their fatigue was the only reason Grievous bettered them is ridiculous.

Savage has never taken on five opponents simultaneously and bested them, nor has he ever dueled evenly with Mace Windu whilst at a disadvantage. He's never received the same level of skill accolades from Grievous, never pressured Dooku in a duel by merit of his own skill, never bested Asajj Ventress "handily" - he's an inferior combatant. I've made both his and Grievous' respect threads. Go to them, compare them. It's not difficult.

And what does this have to do with anything? They can be whatever versions they want - Grievous in the EU/ROTS novel, basically anywhere but TCW, is a magnificent lightsaber duelist and a physical behemoth. TCW is the only source which portrays him badly, and even then quite a lot of his losses there can be justified.

TPM Maul isn't as powerful as ROTS Kenobi, and Savage lacks precision. He also lacks the ability to deprive Grievous of two his sabers before Force attacking him, or keep up with Grievous substantially superior skill and speed in order to defeat him.

There's also the fact that recently SOD Maul BRF'd Grievous with telekinesis and failed to keep him down for the count.

You have an awesome way of debating. Anything that can be used against Grievous must be blown out of proportion, anything that can be used in favour of him is nigh-irrelevant, amirite?

Kenobi had a Form advantage which allowed him to overcome Grievous in ways other Jedi couldn't. Windu believed even himself couldn't have been a better choice for taking Grievous on due to the difference in lightsaber form, and evidently he isn't given Grievous' ability to stalemate him but lose to Kenobi. Unless you want to try and claim that Kenobi > Windu, which I think you'll find quite difficult.

And saying that a majority of the Order uses Soresu isn't an argument because 1) By that logic Grievous is still at a Form disadvantage against Soresu Users. And 2) Kenobi is the Order's foremost master of the Form, and is by feats one of the best duelists in the Order, above any other Soresu User of his era, so it's a moot point.
As opposed to all of your fantastic points......

He didn't have them at any real disadvantage once he confronted them directly, at which point he decapitated Durge and choked Ventress out after some resistance. And there is no evidence that Grievous knew them both, or at least he didn't know their combat abilities well at all due to never encountering them until this point. Again, you're exaggerating anything that will work in your favour, for whatever reason.

Ventress defeated TCW Grievous, who is a different version to the one in this thread, on a potent Dark Side nexus. Stop intermingling Grievous' feats from wildly different sources just to boost your argument.

Your point being? Maul didn't defeat Jinn either of the times he fought him until Jinn was tired - then Maul beat him. And Jinn has legitmate stamina issues due to being out of his physical prime, opposed to the Jedi Grievous fought who had been driven away after battling droids, which isn't quite as strenuous as fighting Darth Maul.

Strawman - I wasn't even using that encounter as evidence for my case. Try again.

Oh this is just so bad, I'm not even sure it's worth my time addressing every point.


Originally posted by ILS
I'm aware of all of this, but a couple of clarifications.

Jinn was one of the best swordsmen the Jedi have ever produced, as per the TPM novel.


Ok, that only supports my point.


Originally posted by ILS
Bondara's skills weren't second to none. He is objectively inferior to both Windu and Jinn, as per Shadow Hunter and I believe another source. When someone is described as "unparalleled" in SW it's a blatant exaggeration, otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry would be unparalleled....


I think you're confused between Saber "skills" and overall Combat Prowess.

In either case it was made quite clear Bondara was also in the elite few of the era.



Originally posted by ILS
Throwing aside the pointless referencing of "Council Members" - because simply being on the council has nothing to do with your dueling skill....


Council Members are generally the most powerful Jedi. I'm sure someone here has a quote for that. That doesn't necessitate every single Council Member would beat EVERY Non-Council Member in combat, as we already have the example of Bondara. But that is the general principle.

In any case they are all accomplished Jedi Masters with known combat prowess.


Originally posted by ILS
It has been overstated. Yes, they were tired, but they weren't so exhausted that they needed to coddle up in a bacta tank otherwise they'd collapse from fatigue. They weren't quite 100%, but they were still more than capable of fighting and providing a challenge. Acting like their fatigue was the only reason Grievous bettered them is ridiculous.

Exhausted is exhausted. No point in denying it. No where was it stated they were "just not quite at their peak." The very word "Exhausted" means very tired. As in no where near their peak.


Originally posted by ILS
Savage has never taken on five opponents simultaneously and bested them, nor has he ever dueled evenly with Mace Windu whilst at a disadvantage. He's never received the same level of skill accolades from Grievous, never pressured Dooku in a duel by merit of his own skill, never bested Asajj Ventress "handily" - he's an inferior combatant. I've made both his and Grievous' respect threads. Go to them, compare them. It's not difficult..


Well give him 5 Jedi to fight who are all EXHAUSTED and I wouldn't put it beyond Opress at all.

LOL Savage has Floored Dooku. Who cares if it was by "skill" or by "strength". It's overall combat prowess here that matters. And Opress will Tk Grievous to death.




Originally posted by ILS
TPM Maul isn't as powerful as ROTS Kenobi, and Savage lacks precision. He also lacks the ability to deprive Grievous of two his sabers before Force attacking him, or keep up with Grievous substantially superior skill and speed in order to defeat him..


Nah, Opress eats Council members for breakfast. He'll handle Grievous in Sabers before Force Crushing him.




Originally posted by ILS
There's also the fact that recently SOD Maul BRF'd Grievous with telekinesis and failed to keep him down for the count.


Oh so now you're using TCW's depictions. You should make up your mind.

In either case, Maul thought Grievous was finished, and was rushed to go help Talzin.



Originally posted by ILS
You have an awesome way of debating. Anything that can be used against Grievous must be blown out of proportion, anything that can be used in favour of him is nigh-irrelevant, amirite?


Just giving you the facts Objectively.

The Council Members Grievous fought were "Exhausted" weh GG beat them. Whilst no "Weakness" was ever mentioned against Soresu. The only thing that was mentioned was that Soresu is the preferred method to deal with him.

And by the way, if forced on the defense, Maul is also a Masterful at that.



Originally posted by ILS
He didn't have them at any real disadvantage once he confronted them directly, at which point he decapitated Durge and choked Ventress out after some resistance. And there is no evidence that Grievous knew them both, or at least he didn't know their combat abilities well at all due to never encountering them until this point. Again, you're exaggerating anything that will work in your favour, for whatever reason.


No not at all. They had no clue who he was. It was the first time they were confronted by him. Grievous choked Ventress by surprise, but she held her own before that, and didn't even use Tk on him IIRC.

And this was a far less Powerful Ventress than the one who beat Grievous later 1 vs 1. And has told prior to that in the comics and TCW that he is not his equal.


Originally posted by ILS
Ventress defeated TCW Grievous, who is a different version to the one in this thread, on a potent Dark Side nexus. Stop intermingling Grievous' feats from wildly different sources just to boost your argument.


Excuse me, do you want to start getting consistent in your arguments please.

How exactly is ROTS Grievous the same as OCW Grievous but different to TCW Grievous.

If anything TCW Grievous has been portrayed as a much greater threat than he ever was in ROTS.


As for the "potent" dark side nexus. Doesn't really matter because Ventress didn't even once resort to using Tk against him (most likely because she challenged him to honorable combat) , plus Filoni's commentary on that was that Grievous was always going to lose against her, simply because he's not her match.



Originally posted by ILS
Your point being? Maul didn't defeat Jinn either of the times he fought him until Jinn was tired - then Maul beat him. And Jinn has legitmate stamina issues due to being out of his physical prime, opposed to the Jedi Grievous fought who had been driven away after battling droids, which isn't quite as strenuous as fighting Darth Maul.




Ok, I refuse to keep arguing this point, because I'm definitely losing IQ points even addressing it.

Jinn was Tired because Maul battered through his defenses. Jinn was tired, because it was a long fought fight ONLY because he had Kenobi helping him. It was Maul who was combating 2 Jedi for such a long period, and it was Maul who fell flat on his back after falling 2 stories.
And it was Qui-Gon who mediatated for some time to completely revitalize himself before engaging Maul 1 vs 1 for the final fight.
Yet still Maul battered through his defenses. The difference between them was clear, in strength, combat skill and yes stamina on top of everything else.

Even continuing this point is seriously retarded, and I doubt anyone else here would have the patience to even address you on it.

In other words you're slowly getting to the point of conceding but too proud to admit it? And I can see from skimming that you haven't directly countered everything I said, only quoting select parts of my argument. Interesting.
Defeating someone who is worse than Qui-Gon Jinn is not a feat which puts you above Grievous, lmao.
That's nice, but I'll just stick to judging character by what they can actually do. Grievous, for example, can duel evenly with Mace while his mobility his hindered.
Can you actually prove just how exhausted they were? Or are you just going to keep hounding on about why they were fatigued to some ambiguous degree like it's the beginning and the end of the entire feat?
You failed to respond to the part about Mace, accolades, or the point about Ventress. Silent concession accepted, Opress has inferior dueling feats.

Again, you're exaggerating their level of fatigue. Ti for instance was operating telekinesis/deflection perfectly well against Grievous, and Ki-Adi was ****ing desperate to get another shot at him before a clone restrained him.

Hmm... well... when we're discussing who is more skilled, using a showing that was entirely based on strength isn't generally going to work. Dooku has been hard-pressed to defeat Grievous in sparring matches before, as per Labyrinth of Evil, and during OCW Grievous contended with him in a spar. Savage on the other hand generally has most of his blows deflected or dodged by the Count without much strain - he landed one legitimate strike on Dooku, and because of sheer physical might, he floored him. Not only is that nothing to do with skill, and not a comparable skill feat to the ones I've brought up, but Grievous has better strength than Savage himself so this tactic definitely wouldn't work. You're seriously failing to even counter my points properly now.

Savage lacks the precision to damage Grievous' armor in the same way Windu did, and his Force waves can be dodged the same way Grievous has dodged waves in the past. Refute this or stop talking.

Well shit, give me some of the pills you're taking and I'll see what I can do.
It's not necessarily TCW, it's an adaptation of it's screenplays which never aired. And Grievous is portrayed as far more formidable in SOD than in TCW, i.e slaughtering Mandalorians with his bare hands opposed to losing to Gungans, dueling evenly with Maul.

That is entirely besides the point. Maul failed to finish Grievous off despite his best efforts of sending him to a plummeting death.
Are. You. F*ck.
Exaggerating still I see.

Yes, word it however you want, weakness, advantageous, preferred - Kenobi's lightsaber form was well suited to tackling Grievous', which is why he defeated him. In terms of raw skill Kenobi and Grievous should be about equal, but Kenobi won through his Form in such a way other peers of Kenobi like Maul, Ventress and Windu couldn't. Refute this or throw the towel in.
And are you kidding me? You're trying to tell me that Maul can use Soresu as well as Kenobi? Hogwash.
N'aw, look who's still misconstruing events out of ignorance and preference.
Ventress did use TK on Grievous in that fight - right before she was choked out by him, actually. Of course she held her own but is besides the ****ing point, which you seem to have thrown out the window along with the rest of your marbles, going by your awful attempts at rebutting my arguments.

Really? Not only are you wrong about Ventress being far less powerful when she fought Grievous in OCW, you're attempting to implement a double standard by sticking your dick inside anything bad TCW Grievous does and intermingling him with peak Grievous. How can you do that, and then whine about Grievous getting the better of a "Less powerful" Ventress, when you've completely disregarded the difference in Grievous' portrayals? Absolutely awful debating.

OCW Ventress was able to legitimately contend with Dooku, as well as Anakin. Not far off of her TCW self at all really, in fact probably superior.
Because ROTS novel Grievous is in-canon, and makes references to EU Grievous and portrays him in a similar manner, i.e referencing his fight with Mace Windu from Labyrinth of Evil, and describing him as a skilled opponent with a mastery of the seven lightsaber forms. TCW does none of this when describing Grievous, whatsoever, in fact it portrays him as nothing more than a coward, and poor duelist in comparison.

Of course it matters, holy shit. A Dark Side nexus doesn't just enhance your TK and you know that fine well.

If that's true, then it only furthers my point that there's a distinction to be made between TCW Grievous and the rest of his portrayals which Filoni had no hand in, i.e RotS novel, his various comics, Labyrinth of Evil, sourcebooks, OCW. Filoni's Grievous is just a different interpretation of the character altogether, and the OP for this thread is clearly using the one I've been referencing. So nut up and respond to my argument instead of using double standards, wriggling your way into an inane debate about canon, and just debating shitly in general.

Don't strain yourself.
Thanks for describing the details of a fight to me that I know inside and out. But you've utterly failed to properly refute the point that not only was Jinn even more tired than the Jedi group by the time Maul gained an edge over him, but both losing parties were in a state of fatigue when they lost - therefore, fatigue can be attributed to why they lost. It's very simple, you either have difficulty understanding it, or you think it's alright for Maul to take wins which are partly attributed to his opponent's fatigue but not Grievous.

Yeah, I doubt anyone else would have the patience to kid themselves arguing the sheer nonsense you've been spewing in this thread. A lot of people would either concede gracefully or just stop talking - but not you, oh no. You like to go in circles like a dog chasing it's boner. Literally. A dog trying to bite it's own boner off running in circles would be a fantastic visual representation of how you debate.

By TFU, yeah being council member also means you are powerful ;

http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y418/karasakal_teach/TheForceUnleashed034_zpsaf94daad.jpg

Is Tfu stupid ? Yes. Any council member can kick Galen's ass, by TFU standarts. Thats why I was saying TFU hypes too much, everyone in TFU is using the force like amped, it would be same in OCW / Microseries.

But of course, the people like ILS will ignore this double standarts of TFU and OCW, they will just keep wank to their favorite characters.

Holy shit

Well I am well aware of stupidity of TFU and Microseries. Which means Grievous is no where near powerful like he is in there. I am really sick of this bullshit of Grievous and his wanker ILS.

TCW / Movie Grievous is the real and canon one. When will you guys manage to understand this ?

Another funny thing about this, people like ILS wanks Grievous because he kicked ass in Microseries, but somehow they fail to see Mace Windu's feats there, and ignore it. Here is your double-standart.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I am really sick of this bullshit of Grievous and his wanker ILS. He doesn't even have a dick, bro.

2 Marco's point about the OCW and TFU overhyping everyone and portraying them well above normal.

2 any council member beating Galen. He did beat Shaak Ti, after all.

I don't see what is so ridiculous about Grievous' portrayal in OCW. He basically does the same shit and then some in other works that have nothing to do with Tartakovsky, and he has accolades from varying sources which support his ability to take on that team. Plus his fight on Hypori is referenced in a myriad of other sources and is intended to be a prominent part of Grievous' jedi killing career.

Ah... here is your bullshit. Star Wars = MOVIES , is this so hard to understand ? You can't just ignore Movie performances, Grievous by RotS movie , is no where near powerful as he is in OCW microseries, that is why that's bullshit and now it is non-canon.

By RotS movie, Jedi Council were ready to send ''one jedi master'' to deal with Grievous. But clearly, against OCW Grievous, one master is not enough for Grievous, which is why you need to choose one, choosing OCW over Movies is clearly stupid thing to do.

This should be apply to Vader, if someone portrayed Vader running fast like hell, then it is a bullshit, you can say Vader has good reflexes etc. but clearly he is not going to run fast in any platform, because movie says he can't.

The OCW belongs to Legends Canon - which is a parallel universe to Lucas' main universe, which includes the movies. OCW doesn't need to be the same as the movies because it isn't the same Grievous, it's two different versions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
2 Marco's point about the OCW and TFU overhyping everyone and portraying them well above normal.

2 any council member beating Galen. He did beat Shaak Ti, after all.

I meant any council member would give a good fight to Galen, because Crippled Droid man said ''you need to face someone strong, a council member'' which means any council member would give a good fight to Starkiller. Even Coleman Trebor. Even Coleman shouldn't be weaker than Kota.

He wasn't saying "a Council Member" as in any council member, he was referring to the council member Galen would be facing specifically.

Yeah, I guess that's why Galen said ''A council member?'' TFU was stupid as OCW anyways, I don't even bother to argue these.

Coleman Trebor is like Sha'Gi level lmao

Originally posted by Dionysus
Coleman Trebor is like Sha'Gi level lmao

Don't exaggerate it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
plus Filoni's commentary on that was that Grievous was always going to lose against her, simply because he's not her match. Quote?

Originally posted by Dionysus
Quote?


http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3


Filoni: I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day.


^ Interesting thing is he specifically notes LIGHTSABER Fight. So he's talking of a scenario without any Tk Involvement. So clearly being on a DS Nexus (which I'm not sure it is in true canon), would not have effected the end result of that duel. And that's without Tk involved.




He goes on to say that he is adept at wielding Lightsabers, but ultimately it's the fear of those swirling blades that takes down Jedi, and not necessarily his combat prowess being greater than theirs:



IGN: Yeah, once things aren't going so well for him, he quickly cheats or calls in help.

Filoni: Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent -- like any video game!

Not only is Filoni's opinion on Grievous short-bus worthy, but it's just that - his opinion. He even says "it's just me" and "I always thought" - he obviously intended not to release an objective statement on the character. Is he in charge? Sure, unfortunately... but that doesn't change the fact that his own personal interpretation isn't fact unless he declares it as such.

And actually, after thinking more about TCW Grievous, his level of sheer fighting skill hasn't changed much from his portrayals in most other works.

For instance, he lost to Ventress whilst on a potent Dark Side nexus, which would have amplified her abilities.

He was losing to Kit Fisto, whose lightsaber form is ideal for combating multiple blades/opponents AND while Grievous, as per his medical droid, wasn't at 100% and needed recharging before going after Fisto, but Grievous obviously ignored this warning.

He's also routinely gotten the better of Kenobi physically during their TCW duels, the same way he had in the ROTS novelisation and film.

In the case of Ahsoka fighting him, all she's ever managed to do is run away from Grievous, and it's been made abundantly clear by people like Anakin that she isn't considered ready to truly challenge him.

With Eeth Koth, Grievous took him down using underhanded tactics, but that's hardly evidence to suggest that he couldn't take him out in a straight up fight - and given Koth's lack of showings anyway, it wouldn't be a bad thing for him to defeat Grievous, rather a good showing for Koth.

As for stuff like the Gungans, this is due to a different take on Grievous, and any character in TCWs', physical abilities. For instance, Grievous has routinely slaughtered dozens, if not hundreds, of opponents who make Gungans look like worm food, simultaneously, due to how physically powerful Grievous is in his other portrayals. It's also been noted in the ROTS novelisation that the MagnaGuards' electromagnetic staffs aren't even capable of hurting Grievous, yet the Gungans in TCW used this exact method to incapacitate him. It's the same with other characters - Anakin Skywalker doesn't tear Clovis in half like he should be able to, Darth Maul is shot by a blaster bolt despite the fact in other sources, as a teenager, he has sprinted through and sidestepped hails of blaster bolts at a time. Cad f*cking Bane contends evenly with Obi-Wan Kenobi and Quinlan Vos. It's basically just due to how TCW portrays the physical abilities of Force Users, which is modest in comparison to their EU/movie novel counterparts.

Dueling skill, however, appears not to have altered for characters like Grievous in TCW. That is, unless you want to stick your dick inside of Filoni's subjective opinion like it's scripture, despite the fact the guy knows about as much about Grievous' characterization as a toddler with 90% of his brain consumed by a tumour. Which I personally don't, because, I don't just mindlessly follow creator opinions opposed to canonical facts.

Originally posted by ILS
Not only is Filoni's opinion on Grievous short-bus worthy, but it's just that - his opinion. He even says "it's just me" and "I always thought" - he obviously intended not to release an objective statement on the character. Is he in charge? Sure, unfortunately... but that doesn't change the fact that his own personal interpretation isn't fact unless he declares it as such.

or opinions opposed to canonical facts.



He's saying it's his opinion so as not to have crazy Grievous fans lay into him. The guy gets a lot of hate mail.

Also the guy has talked to Lucas in depth about all these things on a daily basis for like 7-8 years. You really think he forgot to ask Lucas about how good Grievous is? LOL.

Fact is he's actually defended Grievous to Lucas. He says on page 1 of that same Interview how IT WAS LUCAS who wanted to have Grievous losing to Gungans, and it was FILONI who said Fan won't like that.

In either case, like you said, he's in charge on that show, so it shows us the creators intentions of Ventress beating Grievous simply being because she's better than him, not because they're on some dark side nexus.

And this was all talking about sole Lightsaber fights. You add in TK, and Grievous has no chance against someone as Powerful as Ventress.


Originally posted by ILS

And actually, after thinking more about TCW Grievous, his level of sheer fighting skill hasn't changed much from his portrayals in most other works.

For instance, he lost to Ventress whilst on a potent Dark Side nexus, which would have amplified her abilities.

He was losing to Kit Fisto, whose lightsaber form is ideal for combating multiple blades/opponents AND while Grievous, as per his medical droid, wasn't at 100% and needed recharging before going after Fisto, but Grievous obviously ignored this warning.

He's also routinely gotten the better of Kenobi physically during their TCW duels, the same way he had in the ROTS novelisation and film.

In the case of Ahsoka fighting him, all she's ever managed to do is run away from Grievous, and it's been made abundantly clear by people like Anakin that she isn't considered ready to truly challenge him.

With Eeth Koth, Grievous took him down using underhanded tactics, but that's hardly evidence to suggest that he couldn't take him out in a straight up fight - and given Koth's lack of showings anyway, it wouldn't be a bad thing for him to defeat Grievous, rather a good showing for Koth.




None of this matters because he's explained that when it comes to formidable Jedi (All Council Members would be included in that) Grievous wins THROUGH FEAR AND INTIMIDATING his Opponents via his Swirling Blades.

So the Jedi who have done better against him, have simply got past that Intimidation factor, whilst the Jedi who have struggled or fall to him Have not.

Clearly it took Kenobi some time to get past that. But he was clearly past it by ROTS. Whilst Fisto and Koth saw past that almost immediately.

Proof of this? And that his statement was intended to be objective instead of subjective?
Quote?
Then it's what a lot of us debaters like to call an inconsistency, and Filoni and Lucas both evidently realized this as well considering they acknowledged that Grievous losing to Gungans is out of the norm, and would be portraying him as less impressive than usual.

Having said that, as far as creative decisions go, the idea of Grievous - someone who has built a career out of wholesale slaughtering Jedi by the hundred - losing to Gungans, is hilariously retarded.
No, an opinion isn't the same as creator intentions. It isn't a canonical fact that Ventress is a better duelist than Grievous. The only fact of the matter is that she was able to beat him on a Dark Side nexus which would amplified her beyond her normal abilities. Also, in other sources Grievous has been noted as being superior to all of Dooku's other apprentices/proteges, has beaten Ventress, and has had better dueling and physical feats than her. So the idea that all of that can be changed just because Filoni or Lucas want it to be so is just ignorant on their part and anyone who would subscribe to that statement. Luckily, it's just Filoni's opinion, so it doesn't even matter.

Lmfao, you're completely incapable of countering my argument so you continue to cling to a subjective opinion like it's fact. Nice debating DP, good job

Basically everything you just said is refuted by the fact that it is just an opinion, which is basically irrelevant unless it's deemed official.

Originally posted by ILS
Lmfao, you're completely incapable of countering my argument so you continue to cling to a subjective opinion like it's fact. Nice debating DP, good job

Basically everything you just said is refuted by the fact that it is just an opinion, which is basically irrelevant unless it's deemed official.



Cool story bro. You keep clinging to the idea that "It's his OPINION".

I'll stick with the Creator's opinion over yours any day



Originally posted by ILS

Quote?



You need a quote that Filoni's talked to Lucas about everything that happens on Clone Wars including all the fights that happen?

You really have no clue about how actual Canon was created under Lucas do you?

He was pretty much a dictator over the whole thing.

You've even quoted YOURSELF how Filoni argued back on forth with Lucas about how Grievous shouldn't lose to Gungans.

So if anything, Filoni's opinion on Grievous is actually HIGHER than Lucas's opinion on him

-
Mine which is backed up by evidence. But hey, it's not my fault you can't think for yourself
No, I need a quote for you to try and back up your claim that his opinion was meant as fact.
I could say the same about your ability to interpret source material, understand characters, or actually debate with some coherence instead of dodging certain points you can't counter and spouting nonsense.
Admitting that it was just an opinion has just undermined your entire argument - concession accepted bro, thanks for coming.

I'm pretty sure there's another post of mine in another thread you need to get to replying to bro, unless you conceded to that too? Holy shit, you'll need to open up your own concession stand if this keeps up.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3


Filoni: I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day.


^ Interesting thing is he specifically notes LIGHTSABER Fight. So he's talking of a scenario without any Tk Involvement. So clearly being on a DS Nexus (which I'm not sure it is in true canon), would not have effected the end result of that duel. And that's without Tk involved.




He goes on to say that he is adept at wielding Lightsabers, but ultimately it's the fear of those swirling blades that takes down Jedi, and not necessarily his combat prowess being greater than theirs:



IGN: Yeah, once things aren't going so well for him, he quickly cheats or calls in help.

Filoni: Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent -- like any video game!

I love Filoni.

That quote kinda trashes GG. The comment about him killing jedi because of their "fear of those swirling blades" makes jedi just seem like mooks who lose their nerve.

It's just his opinion, it doesn't really trash anything.

No I know, I just don't understand how he could have such a low opinion of Grievous. Jedi only die to him because him twirling his blades scares them, wtf is that rofl

Yeah... he's a funny dude

Originally posted by Trocity
That quote kinda trashes GG. The comment about him killing jedi because of their "fear of those swirling blades" makes jedi just seem like mooks who lose their nerve.

Actually he meant his situation of being a non-force sensitive more than ''swirling blade'' thing, he is not lowballing him imo, just that he thinks GG is overrated (what I understand from interview) and he thinks that GG has no chance to beat top duelists like Ventress, which is fine imho.

'' it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, ''


Since, if Grievous as a non-force sensitive, can be a challange to top duelists, then why not Boba Fett or Jango Fett, Pre Vizsla etc. Without precog, it is really hard to duel with force sensitives.

Originally posted by Trocity
No I know, I just don't understand how he could have such a low opinion of Grievous. Jedi only die to him because him twirling his blades scares them, wtf is that rofl


Because their eyes can deceive them, when he swings those Sabers around so fast, it could seem to the Jedi like they have no chance. Hence the line "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." (Kenobi to Luke SW:ANH).

Besides that's how Dooku has trained Grievous to fight Jedi, through surprise, fear and intimidation. That's how he's taught him to defeat the Jedi in LOE and in the OCW.

Darth Power be ignoring like three of my posts now while talking to other people. Get yourself a concession stand bro for real.

Originally posted by ILS
Darth Power be ignoring like three of my posts now while talking to other people. Get yourself a concession stand bro for real.

Because there's no point. I've given my points and evidences which you just ignore in favour of your Love for Grievous. So I've responded to some shorter posts by people who might be just a little open minded in favour of your long posts which just waste my time with you describing your love for Grievous and how you will never give up on him no matter what Filoni, Lucas or anyone else in charge of SW Canon thinks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because there's no point. I've given my points and evidences which you just ignore in favour of your Love for Grievous. So I've responded to some shorter posts by people who might be just a little open minded in favour of your long posts which just waste my time with you describing your love for Grievous and how you will never give up on him no matter what Filoni, Lucas or anyone else in charge of SW Canon thinks. Or you just can't refute anything I've said

I've no problem with using Legends feats, but only if does not contradict with Canon.

For example, Grievous contradicts like hell with Canon, in this circumstance, I will choose Canon over Legends. Or Anakin's overhyped strength in Legends, which is contradicted with Canon.

This is why I am choosing to ignore those feats, not because they are non-canon, because their EU feats contradict with Canon feats. Otherwise I wouldn't make Darth Krayt respect thread at the first place since that character is not even exist in Canon.

Dude, Legends is it's own universe now. Most people debate Legends. It's just Lucas nuthuggers like you and DP who can't debate and resort to

Marco, I read through your Krayt respect thread. The final quote "Still, Humans make up the bulk of the Sith. The natural chaos of their emotions is capable of producing the warping passion necessary to create a Sith Lord. Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, , Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt" was found by me, not Sasukedc. Secondly, you cropped Darth Malak's name out of the quote. Why?

Originally posted by ILS
Dude, Legends is it's own universe now. Most people debate Legends. It's just Lucas nuthuggers like you and DP who can't debate and resort to



facepalm


Even in Legends Lucas's word was always final. Or were you not aware of the G, T and C canon hierarchy?

But Lucas's words actually mean less now that he's sold Lucasfilm. And Filoni's words actually mean more now that he's still creating new Canon for Lucasfilm.

And btw TCW was part of Legends continuity. Or do you not get where the 2 Universes get divided?


All that being said, your over-attachment to Legends is unhealthy considering it has been officially declared Non-Canon. You need to deal with that instead of complaining to people who bring that up.

I mean just look at this thread, the OP mentioned "ROTS" Grievous, yet you want to ignore Lucas's comments on him (Lucas made ROTS in case you didn't realize). The OP mentioned 2 versions of characters from TCW, yet you want to ignore TCW and the comments from the Director of TCW. Then you want to insist that it's the OCW Grievous in his super uberness that's the only relevant version of Grievous here, and that anyone who doesn't agree with that is simply wrong.

You need to wake up and deal with s*** brah.

Then, and nowadays, the EU is referred to as a parallel universe. G, T, C ect, canon is now obsolete, replaced by Canon and Legends.
OCW Grievous isn't a thing by itself - the battle of Hypori is referenced in Insider 86, Labyrinth of Evil, Star Wars: General Grievous and other sourcebooks/stories. And I've been bringing up feats for Grievous outside of the cartoon. You need to wrap your head around that - and, you need to wrap your head around the fact that TCW portrays characters differently from the EU, and that this is an EU board filled with people who are here to debate the EU. And when we do debate the EU, you lack the capacity to back up your own points due to a lack of knowledge, and resort to what can easily be viewed on-screen and spelled out to you through creator opinions.

Btw bro, you should probably stop trying to open new debates with me if it's "not worth it". It just makes it look like you can't refute my arguments and will only reply to select quotes. Poor form indeed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Marco, I read through your Krayt respect thread. The final quote "Still, Humans make up the bulk of the Sith. The natural chaos of their emotions is capable of producing the warping passion necessary to create a Sith Lord. Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, , Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt" was found by me, not Sasukedc. Secondly, you cropped Darth Malak's name out of the quote. Why?

Because newguy showed me like that without giving a credit to you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
facepalm
Even in Legends Lucas's word was always final. Or were you not aware of the G, T and C canon hierarchy?


Nice put.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Marco, I read through your Krayt respect thread. The final quote "Still, Humans make up the bulk of the Sith. The natural chaos of their emotions is capable of producing the warping passion necessary to create a Sith Lord. Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, , Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt" was found by me, not Sasukedc. Secondly, you cropped Darth Malak's name out of the quote. Why?

I brought it to his attention. And I doubt you were the first person to find the quote.

And yeah, Malak should be in the quote.

I brought it to your attention, and in terms of debating goes, I was the first person to find the quote.
It was in a old archived online article that has since been long last. I don't get why Malak was excluded either.
I would appreciate to get the credit to my own name, or no ones name. You didn't spend the effort finding the quote.