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Still tweaking with my top 10 Jedi, who wins?

Thor, easily. Too little is known about Jedi Dooku while the Barsen'thor is a powerhouse with some of the best feats of any Jedi.

Dooku was implied to be the best Jedi produced by the order during the several centuries that Yoda reigned. I think that qualifies him as a powerhouse as well. And if it doesn't, being the only person sans Yoda to defeat Mace Windu does.

He's a top of the line swordsman and a master of the Force, likely stronger than anyone the Barsen'thor has faced before. The idea that she could handle him easily is, as Ant would say, lolworthy.

Double-standards by Sasukedc. ^

In what way?

Using hype for PT characters to the point of Top 10s but not doing the same to other eras for even Top 20s.

Again, examples?

Pretty much every character Nephthys ever suggests on the Top 10 thread.

If you're not going to be specific, I can't help you.

It wasn't suppose to be a 8+ post discussion, but rather a spiteful yet friendly jab, similarly to what you did to me the other day ago.
Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Darth Nihilus, Master Wyellett, Jaric Kaedan, Tol Bragga, Ven Zallow, and Kas'im are examples.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku was implied to be the best Jedi produced by the order during the several centuries that Yoda reigned. I think that qualifies him as a powerhouse as well. And if it doesn't, being the only person sans Yoda to defeat Mace Windu does.

He's a top of the line swordsman and a master of the Force, likely stronger than anyone the Barsen'thor has faced before. The idea that she could handle him easily is, as Ant would say, lolworthy.

He still has nothing on the Barsen'thor's level. He is extremely powerful and skilled, but Thor has better TK feats than Dooku does as a Sith Lord, when he was superior to his Jedi incarnation and she has overall superior showings, feats and hype by far.

I doubt that he's stronger than Vivicar or the First Son.

I consider all of the above top 20 material, easily. Though because they're ambiguous on the whole, I don't have any precise placements for them--which is the same case as Dooku.



I generally rank these guys pretty high, not sure what you're talking about. I mean, do you expect me to put them above Kenobi or something? Because I can tell you right now that his hype is better than all of theirs.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I consider all of the above top 20 material, easily.
If you really do consider hype, you would have them all above Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I generally rank these guys pretty high, not sure what you're talking about. I mean, do you expect me to put them above Kenobi or something? Because I can tell you right now that his hype is better than all of theirs.

Kenobi or Jedi Dooku? Wyellet was hyped as so powerful that the Republic classified him as a superweapon. Hard to get better hype than that, bro. Kaedan beating the Dread Master's, Zallow matching Malgus, Braga giving end of Act III HoT a tough fight and Kas'im mastering every aspect of lightsaber combat are all preeety darn great pieces of hype and implied prowess.

They aren't from the PT though, Nephthys. Automatically weak.

Dooku's prowess as a Jedi is implied, but not really concrete. I'll go with Barsen'thor just because he has a better ground to stand on.

But only in a Force contest, of course.

But this isn't a force contest, Aubere.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wyellet was hyped as so powerful that the Republic classified him as a superweapon.

And he was defeated by the Wrath in mid-Act II. Considering how by this point Wrath was unable to defeat Ekkage or Venegean by himself, Wyellett really can't be better than the upper-class Dark Councillors; but he's up there, to be sure.



He and his forces captured them, that doesn't mean he defeated or even fought them. Kaedan too was killed by the Wrath (or Nox), after all. Still, he's a master of Juyo-Kos and according to the encyclopedia wan one of the leaders of the Council; he's obviously solid.



From my perspective that's a little backwards. The fact that he defeated Zallow is what defines Malgus's skill, not the other way around--and even then, I don't consider Malgus to be Dooku's superior by that point anyway.

@Rest: Not sure what you're trying to prove. Sora Bulq gave Mace Windu a good fight too, and he's still not as good as Dooku or Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But this isn't a force contest, Aubere.


Yeah, I know. If we're talking a straight fight, I'm not sure who would win. I'm leaning Barsen'thor in a tough fight.

He defeated Vengean nigh-solo (Draag gives the Wrath the lion's share of the credit for his assassination,) and Darth Ekkage's hype matches that of Darth Maul. Considering she felled a sith lord with a casual burst of lightning (and I'm pretty sure destroyed his lightsaber,) it's no wonder the wrath as of early act 2 couldn't solo her.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dooku was implied to be the best Jedi produced by the order during the several centuries that Yoda reigned. I think that qualifies him as a powerhouse as well. And if it doesn't, being the only person sans Yoda to defeat Mace Windu does.





Given the above I doubt turning Sith Lord gave Dooku anything more than a moderate improvement in Force Powers plus obviously added Force Lightning to his list of abilities.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He defeated Vengean nigh-solo (Draag gives the Wrath the lion's share of the credit for his assassination,)

I don't care if Draahg* gives him the credit, he was still fighting alongside a powerful Sith and rival.



Hardly. But indeed, Ekkage seems to be more or less the Nyriss of her day, yeah--and it was on Belsavis. Act III.


Point is, I consider Wyellett weaker than them. Which isn't bad at all, but hardly better than Dooku.

Nyriss would wipe the floor with Maul.

BS.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nyriss would wipe the floor with Maul.

InB4 Marco rage.

True... she would get someone else to wipe the floor with Maul after she slaughters him.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't care if Draahg* gives him the credit, he was still fighting alongside a powerful Sith and rival.

Originally posted by Me, when I slaughtered you
Whether or not you "care" isn't my concern.

There's a reason Draahg gets put out of commission mid-fight. The Wrath does (at worst) 75% of the work.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hardly. But indeed, Ekkage seems to be more or less the Nyriss of her day, yeah--and it was on Belsavis. Act III.

Ultimately, historically legendary skill is inferior to being the greatest assassin in history as well as perhaps a greater weapon than any the Empire ever had.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Point is, I consider Wyellett weaker than them. Which isn't bad at all, but hardly better than Dooku.

And he isn't.

But you can't make that call. He is fighting alongside a Sith that has consistently been something of a rival to him. It's 2 on 1.



I don't recall the history* part.



Then I'm not really sure what you're arguing.

If anything, their rivalry is akin to Meetra and Sion, only the wrath holds even more dominance over draahg. They were only rivals in terms of how Baras viewed their significance.

Greatest that ever lived*

I'm defending the honor of wyellett and the wrath tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
True... she would get someone else to wipe the floor with Maul after she slaughters him.
Her name is Nyriss... she is the greatest of the Dark Councilors.

The person she gets must wipe the floor... they must wipe the floor with Maul... or she becomes angry.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Her name is Nyriss... she is the greatest of the Dark Councilors.

The person she gets must wipe the floor... they must wipe the floor with Maul... or she becomes angry.

...what?


@Skillz: By the way, something that caught my eye, when did Draahg get taken out of the fight?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
...what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXOdn6vLCuU&t=4m26s

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But this isn't a force contest, Aubere.

Thor's TK is overwhelming though. And if Dooku closes to engage in sabers, she can simply block his saber with a Force shield and blow him away like she did to the First Son.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And he was defeated by the Wrath in mid-Act II. Considering how by this point Wrath was unable to defeat Ekkage or Venegean by himself, Wyellett really can't be better than the upper-class Dark Councillors; but he's up there, to be sure.

Well, Wrath killing him isn't canon. You actually have to work to keep fighting him, in super reckless fashion, with the game all but telling you you're being a dumbass. And just because the Wrath didn't kill them solo doesn't mean they'd be unable to. For the Vengean fight, Draagh gets taken out halfway through and admits the Wrath did the lion's share of the fighting (Draagh was also intentionally fighting poorly), and Vengean spent a very long time prepping before the fight and charging his power. Also iirc the Wrath is stated to be > Ekkage anyway. Who was one of the greatest assassins to ever live and was considered to be as great a weapon as any the Sith had ever had btw.

Also Wylette humiliated and injured Baras before he went super saiyan enlightenment. Plus upper-class Dark Council is pretty ****ing powerful bro.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He and his forces captured them, that doesn't mean he defeated or even fought them. Kaedan too was killed by the Wrath (or Nox), after all. Still, he's a master of Juyo-Kos and according to the encyclopedia wan one of the leaders of the Council; he's obviously solid.

I doubt the Masters went down without a fight. And Nox and Wrath (though any Empire PC can kill him iirc) > Jedi Dooku as well though. :T

Originally posted by NewGuy01
From my perspective that's a little backwards. The fact that he defeated Zallow is what defines Malgus's skill, not the other way around--and even then, I don't consider Malgus to be Dooku's superior by that point anyway.

Maybe not Sith Dooku, but Jedi Dooku?

The Dread Master's are described as the galaxy's greatest threat during the Dread War.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thor's TK is overwhelming though. And if Dooku closes to engage in sabers, she can simply block his saber with a Force shield and blow him away like she did to the First Son.

So why does this logic not apply when she's matched against the HoT?



Dark Side choices are canon, bro.

Point is, Wyellett is demonstratably not as powerful as he claims to be. He believed he could handily overwhelm the Wrath, but was soundly defeated in the end.



Only by himself.



I don't see anything hinting that he injured Baras, much less humiliated him, only that he was able to steal his lightsaber.

And it just so happens Baras got a major boost after that too.



That doesn't make very much sense, though.



Depends on how relevant you think the gap between them is, I suppose.

Dark Side choices are canon for Imperial.
Light Side choices are canon for Republic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
@Skillz: By the way, something that caught my eye, when did Draahg get taken out of the fight?

He gets ragdolled when Vengean is at half health, taken out until the end.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dark Side choices are canon for Imperial.
Light Side choices are canon for Republic.
For the most part I'd agree, but there are a few that I'm not so sure about. Even more that would be a shame without them being canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dark Side choices are canon for Imperial.
Light Side choices are canon for Republic.

I don't think that's official. Plus that would be shitty. Darkside Agent is stupid and lame and completely contrary to the plot, Lightside Warrior and Bounty Hunter are both superior to the alternative.

In terms of KMC debating, it's official.

Lol BS.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lightside Warrior and Bounty Hunter are both superior to the alternative.
lolno

Oculus is superior tho

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
lolno

Oculus is superior tho

Darkside Warrior and Bounty Hunter's are just mindless thugs without much depth or anything making them remotely likeable. The Lightside versions are intelligent, charming and surprisingly interesting, deep characters who both serve as reflections for the worst aspects of their profession and examples of the nobility it's possible to obtain in them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Darkside Warrior and Bounty Hunter's are just mindless thugs without much depth or anything making them remotely likeable. The Lightside versions are intelligent, charming and surprisingly interesting, deep characters who both serve as reflections for the worst aspects of their profession and examples of the nobility it's possible to obtain in them.
It's not my fault you played wrong, tbh. If you don't know how to work the Dark Side angle without wringing your hands, that's your problem.

I played Inquisitor as Dark Side and loved it. Its not my fault those two classes made you feel like nothing more than a bloodthirsty thug.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So why does this logic not apply when she's matched against the HoT?

The HoT won't be smacked around by Thor's TK and is generally more powerful and a superior combatant as repeatedly stated. The shield would be trouble, like it was in the Vitiate duel (where he did something similar), but she would get through.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dark Side choices are canon, bro.

Point is, Wyellett is demonstrably not as powerful as he claims to be. He believed he could handily overwhelm the Wrath, but was soundly defeated in the end.

Nah, that's not true. And IMO the game seemed to not want you to kill him.

Pretty sure it wasn't a sound defeat, it took time and effort. Regardless, this discussion is on hype, not feats. Trying to lowball Wyellett on showings is ignoring the whole point.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Only by himself.

Well tbf he had just had a good opportunity to compare.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't see anything hinting that he injured Baras, much less humiliated him, only that he was able to steal his lightsaber.

And it just so happens Baras got a major boost after that too.

I thought Baras was humiliated when Wyellett took his saber.

It still establishes Wyellett as dang powerful.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That doesn't make very much sense, though.

In your opinion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Depends on how relevant you think the gap between them is, I suppose.

In that one has feats and the other doesn't? I'd say large. A very noticeable improvement.

Yeah Neph, thanks for suggesting me Nox. His self-centered personality and "I really am the best" quotes were pretty perfect for me.

Well considering Dooku is vastly more impressive than the Hero force-wise, he won't either.



Lowball him based on his showings...? Uh, yeah, if Dooku was defeated by Sifo Dyas, he'd have a lot less credibility too



I know, that's the entire point.



In yours, too.



I'd disagree. One is a rival of Windu, and so is the other. There's no reason to think there's any significant difference between the two, only that the Sith incarnation is the greater.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well considering Dooku is vastly more impressive than the Hero force-wise, he won't either.

HoT resisting Sel-Makor and Vitiate indicates stronger defenses than Dooku possesses. Jedi Dooku has no feats to establish that opinion and isn't directly stated to be more powerful and a superior fighter than the Barsen'thor like the Hero is.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Lowball him based on his showings...? Uh, yeah, if Dooku was defeated by Sifo Dyas, he'd have a lot less credibility too

I brought up Wyellett's hype on a specific point about hype. You trying to argue him less powerful than it indicates based on his showings is missing the point of the discussion.

Also, Wrath is much greater than Sifo Dyas. You trying to establish Wyellett as less powerful than Jedi Dooku or Kenobi is ignoring the possibility of the Wrath surpassing those two.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I know, that's the entire point.

Then I don't know why you feel the need to argue this.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In yours, too.

I'd suggest that it's more common sense than opinion that the Master's wouldn't be taken quietly. Do they really seem the type?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'd disagree. One is a rival of Windu, and so is the other. There's no reason to think there's any significant difference between the two, only that the Sith incarnation is the greater.

Which ignores the possibility of Windu improving as well, and of Vapaad's equalising effects. Windu's level is also unknown at the point Dooku was still a Jedi, so that doesn't establish much. Wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn also a rival of Windu at that point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I played Inquisitor as Dark Side and loved it. Its not my fault those two classes made you feel like nothing more than a bloodthirsty thug.

Sure, if you pick the Dark Side option just because it's there, you'll probably feel that way. Just like picking the Light Side option on the Republic side just because it's there will make you feel the opposite. There are plenty of opportunities to be "evil" and not be a psychopath.

As for Nox, considering half of the decisions are talking or Lightning, that's more of an underlying issue. Probably something to do with your desire to electrocute all things that annoy you.

Originally posted by Nephthys



Which ignores the possibility of Windu improving as well, and of Vapaad's equalising effects. Windu's level is also unknown at the point Dooku was still a Jedi, so that doesn't establish much. Wasn't Qui-Gon Jinn also a rival of Windu at that point?


No it seems the quote of Qui-Gon consistently sparring equally with Windu was made up.

We know Windu was head and shoulders above all other Jedi just based on the fact that ONLY Dooku and Yoda could defeat him in the Jedi Order.

We also know Dooku was head and shoulders above all other Jedi: "Most learned in the ways of the Force.." "The Temple's Strongest Student.." "One of the Most Powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history.."

That's all related to Force Powers. As far as Saber prowess goes, I only see Jedi Dooku being superior to Sith Dooku tbh. Sith Dooku's only downer seemed to be his age. Go back 10-15 years and he'll clearly be physically stronger and have greater stamina, whilst still having spent 6 decades Mastering Makashi to it's Apex.

Not to mention AOTC Kenobi KNEW based on what he knows of Jedi Dooku, that he stands no chance against him at all. Heck even Padme seemed to know this: "We're going to need help.." She said that with Anakin, Obi-Wan and a few Clone Troopers there. It was clearly common knowledge that Jedi Dooku was amongst the Elite 3 Jedi of the Jedi Order.

Dooku is magnitudes greater than Thor with a blade, Dooku's comparison to zonakin in book narrative is incredibly impressive and says a lot about Dooku's power.

I'd say that although Dooku is better with a blade, Thor is better as a combatant. Not just Force powers, a better fighter in general.

Except Dooku's cunning and combat tactics are unmatched, I don't think anyone can outsmart him as a combatant.

Dooku is too close in command of the Force and likely has a great deal more refinement than Thor can claim.

Not to mention Dooku's biggest weakness in a fight doesn't apply with this variant.

Barsen'thor is a noted and much admired genius. And I wasn't talking about tactics (Revan btw), just plain combat ability. Her feats are pretty insane. As a padawan with limited experience she defeated Nalen Raloch who'd gained decades of combat training, experience and Jedi techniques instantly from Rajivari himself. Even at that point she was said to embody true skill. And her defeating Vivicar while so weakened while he was so amped indicates an immense amount of skill and combat prowess, or overwhelming power.

The Barsen'thor is more powerful and has abilities Dooku hasn't displayed, such as blocking sabers with a barrier, healing and telepathy. Her TK is on another level to his. Jedi Dooku can't casually smash through the blast door she did, he can't toss a bus-sized chunk of metal like a paper cup like she did, he can't shatter an impenetrable rakatan vaultdoor like her.

But he's less powerful than is older self and has no feats. Thor is greater than Sith Dooku, let alone his unestablished Jedi counterpart who is inferior.

I would suggest re-reading Dark Rendezvous, I would also suggest re-reading AOTC.

Dooku is much more powerful than you are insinuating and is noted to be close to Yoda, the most powerful light sider of all time by TCW.

Oh and what hints we do have state that his force techniques not his power, increased with the Dark Side.

Why would either be relevant to this version of Dooku?

Less close in this thread. Plus Sidious, Yoda's equal, could ragdoll TCW Dooku. So the gap in power is larger than you think.

Well he obviously gained darkside techniques and access to Sith lore and training from Sidious, or force techniques in general. Plus an extra decade or whatever of time he could improve in.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi Dooku can't casually smash through the blast door she did, he can't toss a bus-sized chunk of metal like a paper cup like she did,


You sure about that:

_1ieRQ-4BB4

^ 0:10-0:21


Originally posted by Nephthys


Well he obviously gained darkside techniques and access to Sith lore and training from Sidious, or force techniques in general. Plus an extra decade or whatever of time he could improve in.


I would think at Dooku's age each decade would make him weaker, not stronger. And besdies from turning to the Dark Side and learning to utilize FL, there's hardly any evidence of him having much training from Sidious, access to Sith Lore and continually improving over the 10-15 years he was a Sith.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You sure about that:

_1ieRQ-4BB4

^ 0:10-0:21

Jedi Dooku. And yes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I would think at Dooku's age each decade would make him weaker, not stronger. And besdies from turning to the Dark Side and learning to utilize FL, there's hardly any evidence of him having much training from Sidious, access to Sith Lore and continually improving over the 10-15 years he was a Sith.

Dooku is noted to have the body of a man half his age. The Force is a more powerful factor than the body. So Dooku's enhanced power would still make him superior imo and he is directly stated to be greater as a Sith. Would you also say Sidious got weaker each decade btw? IIRC Dooku gained Anddeddu's holocron and he did show some knowledge of Sorcery when he created that bizarre doppelganger. He's reasonably well versed in Sith abilities.

Of course, the majority of this is speculation based on people's opinion's of Jedi Dooku's level relative to his greater one.

By that line of logic, Dooku not being dominated by Yoda ala Ventress indeed indicates defenses at least as good as the Hero's.



You know that's not my point.



I'd suggest that it's more common sense than opinion that 1 PC < 8 PC's.



No more so than Saesee Tiin.

No one in the Order sans Yoda and Dooku were able to defeat Mace, ever, period.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jedi Dooku. And yes.

I know we're arguing Jedi Dooku, but I only have showings for Sith Dooku, and besides you were saying those feats were beyond even Sith Dooku.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku is noted to have the body of a man half his age.

You can't honestly take that completely literally. Even if it was literal, then 10-15 years earlier he likely would have had the body of a man in his 30's instead of 40's.

Just because he's in great condition for his age doesn't make him immune to aging.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The Force is a more powerful factor than the body. So Dooku's enhanced power would still make him superior imo and he is directly stated to be greater as a Sith.


Yeah but if he's 10-15 years older "physically" but only moderately more powerful in the Force, then I'd personally give his younger self the edge in Sabers.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Would you also say Sidious got weaker each decade btw? IIRC Dooku gained Anddeddu's holocron and he did show some knowledge of Sorcery when he created that bizarre doppelganger. He's reasonably well versed in Sith abilities.


I personally think ROTS Sidious (in his 60's) would take out ROTJ Palpatine (in his 80's) in a direct fight. Despite his Knowledge of the Dark Side probably being greater in ROTJ.

Of course this is the Ultimate Master of the Dark Side, so it wouldn't surprise me if his Mastery more than compensated for his aging.

I would question the combat related knowledge Dooku gained from that holocron considering his fights against Yoda before and after attaining that Holocron.