Nihilus vs Vitiate

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ILS
Fight!

Emperordmb
I'm siding with Vitiate.

Nephthys
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/314/287/2d4.png

ILS
LOL

Trocity
Nihilus

red8
Nihilus

Selenial
Nihilus goes to town.

Nephthys
Do people put so little stock in Vitiate's statements of being more powerful than Nihilus?

The_Tempest
MOST POWERFUL DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN WINNER BRO

Nephthys
I wasn't aware that line of reasoning was widely accepted. I'd be surprised if it was.

Selenial
It is.

Why does power matter in a 1v1 when Nihilus can devour you?
Like, perhaps he can't sever vitiate from the force in his usual drain manner due to the power, but he can TK him like a ***** and then do it.

Vitiate just doesn't have many 1v1 showings and relies a lot on rituals. Not a bad thing, just the reason he'd lose against Sidious and Nihilus even if he was more powerful.

Not Vitiate bashing, his style is great for galaxy wide shit, just not duels.

Nephthys
Why does the drain matter when Vitiate can dominate his mind?

I would be hesitant to say that Nihilus could devour Vitiate. Vitiate's power and the nature of his spirit and self is a very strange and unique case, though also very similar to Nihilus' own state. Personally I feel that coming down on either side of the question would be highly speculative. Also if Nihilus can TK Vitiate like a B*tch (which I doubt), Vitiate can zap him right back like a b*tch.

Also Vitiate doesn't reply alot on rituals. That is just the fanon interpretation of him. An over-reliance on rituals is never stated to be a weakness of his.

Angelalex242
Vitiate can block the drain, so he wins.

Board Walker
Nihilus doesn't do drain, I have explained this multiple times on this forum with in game quotes. He directly and instantly devours an entities connection with the force, and life itself. He doesn't consumer your energy, your life force, or your force reserves, rather he devours your connections that connect you with life and the force.

There is no counter for this, absolutely nothing in the mythos stops this nor can it be learned or taught. No one but Nihilus has this ability, all according to in game quotes word for word.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Board Walker
There is no counter for this, absolutely nothing in the mythos stops this nor can it be learned or taught. No one but Nihilus has this ability, all according to in game quotes word for word.

Actually Traya, the Exile and the Sith Assassin's all utilise the same technique in some manner.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

Board Walker
Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually Traya, the Exile and the Sith Assassin's all utilise the same technique in some manner.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

If you would quote my entire post, and not just one sentence you would see that closely after that follows something close to "His power can't be taught, it can't be learned" and that he devours an entities connection not just their force energy.

Nephthys

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do people put so little stock in Vitiate's statements of being more powerful than Nihilus?

Yes, and he wins.

Aurbere
Nihilus is the shadow in which all life dies. Vitiate, being alive, dies.

Provided Vitiate is worthy of Nihilus' attention. stick out tongue

The Merchant
Vitiate.

red8
Originally posted by Nephthys
Do people put so little stock in Vitiate's statements of being more powerful than Nihilus?

Vitiate is more knowledgeable about the Dark Side than Nihilus. Vitiate is older, wiser, and is capable of more than Nihilus. His ritual on Nathema and his planned ritual for the entire galaxy is IMO magnitudes beyond what Nihilus could achieve.

The main reason I place Nihilus above Vitiate in straight-up combat is that his powers aren't rituals. They seem to be his own raw power. And I don't think any being could match Nihilus' drain without becoming another Nihilus themselves. His life drain and his TK are beyond what we've seen Vitiate perform in combat.

Now Vitiate's lightning is very impressive, quite possibly the most impressive aside from Sidious. If Vitiate could resist Nihilus' drain, I personally still think he would not be able to counter Nihilus' TK.

Nihilus almost overwhelming the Exile and her party after being weakened is probably less impressive than Vitiate holding off the HoT (not sure, never cared for TOR), but it shows that if it (LOL) came to sabers, he would be able to hold his own against Vitiate's illusions and other tricks.

Overall, either one could potentially win depending on the circumstances, but I'd lean slightly towards Nihilus.

Sinious
Originally posted by The_Tempest
MOST POWERFUL DOESNT ALWAYS MEAN WINNER BRO

You're siding with Nihilus here?

Originally posted by Angelalex242
Vitiate can block the drain, so he wins.

thumb up

Based
Nihilus.

Angelalex242
Well...it may boil down to prep time. Vitiate, given sufficient time, can probably come up with a ritual that'll remove Nihilus from the board.

Give Vitiate a couple hours to get the sacrifices and magic going, and Nihilus is screwed. On the other hand, if Nihilus somehow caught the Emperor off guard...

Anyways, Nihilus is not invincible. He is a cancer in the Force, but sufficiently powerful beings...or in this case, a sufficiently powerful ritual...could 'cure' him.

Really, the only thing to argue about is how many hours Vitiate needs to come up with a sufficiently powerful ritual. Given he's got a wipe out all life in the galaxy ritual, wiping out Nihilus is certainly doable, given sufficient time.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I forgot, what makes you believe Vitiate incontrovertibly needs some sort of preparation to carry out offensive assaults? Besides your opinion, of course.

Angelalex242
Probably that Vitiate vs. Sidious video I saw on youtube.

Emphasized heavily how Vitiate needed rituals.

NewGuy01
One of the priority rules of these boards is to never take Youtubers seriously.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I'd like to see you support those opinions with some semblance of evidence or context, as opposed to unfounded conjecture.

NewGuy01
Sidious>Vitiate>Nihilus

/thread, tbh

DarthAnt66
I WILL END YOU. ARGHHHHHHHHH

S_W_LeGenD
Emperor Vitiate is a stable and more powerful version of Darth Nihilus (Basically, BioWare's refined representation of Darth Nihilus). On top of this, he doesn't have weaknesses of normal biological individuals and have been confirmed to have surpassed all Force-users in power at-least in Legends continuity.

Honestly, Emperor Vitiate is among the few who are likely to soundly tackle Darth Nihilus in single combat.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Nihilus doesn't do drain, I have explained this multiple times on this forum with in game quotes. He directly and instantly devours an entities connection with the force, and life itself. He doesn't consumer your energy, your life force, or your force reserves, rather he devours your connections that connect you with life and the force.

There is no counter for this, absolutely nothing in the mythos stops this nor can it be learned or taught. No one but Nihilus has this ability, all according to in game quotes word for word.
Darth Nihilus performed Force Drain, a variant of this talent. His powers have been officially identified as Force Drain and Force Sever related talents.

I provided a good explanation in this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=605755&pagenumber=3

More importantly, Darth Nihilus's powers aren't exclusive to him. Even KoTOR II made it clear that ancients had knowledge of such powers. And people tend to forget that Emperor Vitiate surpassed all ancients in knowledge and power of the dark arts.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Selenial
It is.

Why does power matter in a 1v1 when Nihilus can devour you?
Like, perhaps he can't sever vitiate from the force in his usual drain manner due to the power, but he can TK him like a ***** and then do it.

Vitiate just doesn't have many 1v1 showings and relies a lot on rituals. Not a bad thing, just the reason he'd lose against Sidious and Nihilus even if he was more powerful.

Not Vitiate bashing, his style is great for galaxy wide shit, just not duels.
Sorcery isn't an indication of weakness, the most powerful of the dark side adepts tend to be sorcerers for a reason.

Also, I don't get the underestimation of Emperor Vitiate in single combat. He soundly defeated Revan and many other powerful Force-users in combat situations, and he is still lacking as a combatant? I don't really get the BS of critics in this regard.

Furthermore, I would really like to see someone capable to TK'ing Emperor. Revan had to draw on the power of both light and dark and approach oneness like condition to send Emperor packing and this too when Emperor was caught off-guard. I don't think that even the mightiest of entities can casually TK Emperor around.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious>Vitiate>Nihilus

/thread, tbh
Here is an alternative interpretation:-

Emperor Vitiate >= The most powerful Force-users of Star Wars including entities (in Legends continuity) > Darth Sidious (frequently identified as the most powerful Sith Lord in identity) by virtue of latest updates in Legends continuity > Darth Nihilus (not really much of a Sith Lord in identity to be honest, more like a practitioner of the dark arts).

Anyways, Star Wars based rankings are likely to remain subjective and open to interpretations.

Freedon Nadd
Nihilus wins.

He's an anti-Force damn creature!!!

Sinious
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious>Vitiate>Nihilus

/thread, tbh

thumb up

Top 3 Sith imo.

AncientPower
Darth Nihilus has better drain and TK feats, question is what can Vitiate do in return against something lacking any semblance of a physical body beyond robes and a mask?

carthage
Nihilus

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorcery isn't an indication of weakness, the most powerful of the dark side adepts tend to be sorcerers for a reason.

Also, I don't get the underestimation of Emperor Vitiate in single combat. He soundly defeated Revan and many other powerful Force-users in combat situations, and he is still lacking as a combatant? I don't really get the BS of critics in this regard.

Furthermore, I would really like to see someone capable to TK'ing Emperor. Revan had to draw on the power of both light and dark and approach oneness like condition to send Emperor packing and this too when Emperor was caught off-guard. I don't think that even the mightiest of entities can casually TK Emperor around.

So powerful he always hid,so powerful he barely had control over the half of galaxy,so powerful he never faced his enemies f2f but relied on other means.

Luke,Sidious,Nihilus>Vitiate smile

Freedon Nadd
BTW his demise is mentioned in the Darth Plagueis novel,so he can still die after all. wink :P

Freedon Nadd

Nargaroth
Nihilus. His Force Drain is more useful in combat.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Nihilus. His Force Drain is more useful in combat.
Vitiate is immortal.

SunRazer
Where's the confirmation that Vitiate's "immortality" (Darth Plagueis confirms he only nearly reached immortality) renders him immune to Force Drain?

S_W_LeGenD

SunRazer
lol I'm aware of all that. You really tried to dodge the question, didn't you - what proves that "immortality" renders you immune to Force Drain?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is immortal.


Immortal doesn't mean invincible. Sidious was immortal and still died. wink stick out tongue

Freedon Nadd

Freedon Nadd

SunRazer
LMAO @ "Vitiate boy".

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by SunRazer
LMAO @ "Vitiate boy".
We'll he admited that in one of his replys with me.

Well*

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

1. Force energy(the reservoir of power of any Force sensitive)
2.Life-force(vitality)
3.The midichlorians(major part of the Force)

From what it came from Nyriss' mouth,he consumed only the life-force,Nihilus consumed all three of them.


You actually destroyed your own argument with this.

Nihilus feeds on the force so he killed the force sensitives in Katarr. Vitiate killed everything in Natemha, including the force itself. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
lol I'm aware of all that. You really tried to dodge the question, didn't you - what proves that "immortality" renders you immune to Force Drain?
Emperor Vitiate handled the Nathema ritual, right? The answer is in this.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Immortal doesn't mean invincible. Sidious was immortal and still died. wink stick out tongue
Vitiate descended into greatest depths of immortality then any Sith Lord. In the upcoming content, it is noted that Vitiate cannot be contained or restrained by conventional means.

Sidious wasn't destroyed, his spirit was contained by Jedi spirits when it became vulnerable. Also, Sidious wasn't destroyed by Force Drain powers.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." (Obi-Wan)

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
So now suddenly if the novel Darth Plagueis offers his end,it shouldn't be considered EU canon?

Isn't that because you are a Vitiate boy? stick out tongue smile
Some revelations in Star Wars: Darth Plagueis have been retconned in newer content. Also, the novel represents POV of characters in its content so it can be assumed that Darth Plagueis didn't knew much about Vitiate.

Also, don't assign labels to fellow debators like that. I can respond in kind, you know (e.g. Nihilus's bit** Chu Chu).

NewGuy01
Vitiate still wins.

Sinious

NewGuy01
You noticed it months late, though, so it's alright.

Sinious
Ah, I guess I have a life after all.

NewGuy01
Congratulations.

Sinious
Thank you.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
You actually destroyed your own argument with this.

Nihilus feeds on the force so he killed the force sensitives in Katarr. Vitiate killed everything in Natemha, including the force itself. thumb up

"facepalm" I said Nihilus feeds on all of three. Evidence of how Katarr became a barren wasteland,a world without oxygen(Is Nathema like that?) stick out tongue

If Vitiate had truly the Hunger of Nihilus,then he'd have consumed the Republic.As I said Drew was high of how he twisted the life-force with Force itself and then he called a "void" lol. That scene in which he describes of how Vitiate initiated that ritual contradicts with the logic behind Star Wars.

In matter of drain after Nihilus is Sidious. He was able to siphon both the life-force and Force energy from Byss' people.

Life-force=vitality

Just because you die or a Sith siphons your life-force doesn't make you a "void" in the Force(you are just lifeless) That's available for planets too. They become sucked dry indeed,but they aren't "voids".

For example around the dark tombs(usually Sith) they aren't voids,but but are sucked dry places.

Look Korriban,a lifeless planet,a.husk sucked dry,yet it is not a void.

Drew was high when he wrote that shit bullcrap.

WildBantha88
Nihilus is too powerful. /thread

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate descended into greatest depths of immortality then any Sith Lord. In the upcoming content, it is noted that Vitiate cannot be contained or restrained by conventional means.

Sidious wasn't destroyed, his spirit was contained by Jedi spirits when it became vulnerable. Also, Sidious wasn't destroyed by Force Drain powers.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." (Obi-Wan)

1. What Nihilus does isn't "conventional means" though. Despite of what do you think he's still a part of the Force,and Nihilus feeds on it. But if his spirit was truly undying,then he would have entered in bodies,plenty of bodies,visiting worlds,become more popular,but instead of it what he did? Oh yeah,hiding himself with his dear "immortality".

2.Last time I checked Sidious enjoys some pain in the Chaos dimension.

3. Do you mix Obi Wan,a good guy,became a "spiritual" part with the Force with Vitiate who achieved perhaps a status of "physical" immortality?

Bad dudes will never become a true part of the Force,they just try to stay into this world(damn materialists)

That's what I meant when I mentioned Sidious. stick out tongue

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Nihilus is too powerful. /thread

A person who was aware Nihilus wins!? Gotta note that in my secret diary. stick out tongue

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Nihilus is too powerful. /thread
Correction:

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Nihilus Vitiate is too powerful. /thread

Here:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
"facepalm" I said Nihilus feeds on all of three. Evidence of how Katarr became a barren wasteland,a world without oxygen(Is Nathema like that?) stick out tongue

If Vitiate had truly the Hunger of Nihilus,then he'd have consumed the Republic.As I said Drew was high of how he twisted the life-force with Force itself and then he called a "void" lol. That scene in which he describes of how Vitiate initiated that ritual contradicts with the logic behind Star Wars.

In matter of drain after Nihilus is Sidious. He was able to siphon both the life-force and Force energy from Byss' people.

Life-force=vitality

Just because you die or a Sith siphons your life-force doesn't make you a "void" in the Force(you are just lifeless) That's available for planets too. They become sucked dry indeed,but they aren't "voids".

For example around the dark tombs(usually Sith) they aren't voids,but but are sucked dry places.

Look Korriban,a lifeless planet,a.husk sucked dry,yet it is not a void.

Drew was high when he wrote that shit bullcrap.

See your explaining what's your take on the issue and that's cute but it doesn't matter that much.

If you'd read what Vitiate did to Natemha in the novel, you would know that he consumed literally everything.

Vitiate has the upper hand in both feats and accolades. If you have anything that puts Nihilus above Vitiate other than your opinion, present them. If not, concede now and save yourself from further humiliation.

SunRazer
Vitiate's ritual on Nathema was a ritual, not Nihilus's Force Drain. Again, proof of Vitiate withstanding Drain "because of his immortality"?

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's ritual on Nathema was a ritual, not Nihilus's Force Drain. Again, proof of Vitiate withstanding Drain "because of his immortality"?

Proof of Nihilus being able to drain beings more powerful than himself? Especially those who have much deeper understanding of the force and the dark side.

SunRazer
I said Vitiate wins, lol.

I'm asking for proof that "immortality blocks Drain", as Legend describes it.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
I said Vitiate wins, lol.

I'm asking for proof that "immortality blocks Drain", as Legend describes it.

Well, that's a mystery.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Correction:



Here:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Suddenly,he's stronger than Luke,Sidious,Abeloth,Father,Daughter,Son!?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
See your explaining what's your take on the issue and that's cute but it doesn't matter that much.

If you'd read what Vitiate did to Natemha in the novel, you would know that he consumed literally everything.

Vitiate has the upper hand in both feats and accolades. If you have anything that puts Nihilus above Vitiate other than your opinion, present them. If not, concede now and save yourself from further humiliation.

So if contradicts the logic,it should be a reliable source,okay!?

I will present that in the Nihilus novel(source:New Star Wars Stories page)

stick out tongue

It will be "published" on 2016,23 July as soon as possible.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Proof of Nihilus being able to drain beings more powerful than himself? Especially those who have much deeper understanding of the force and the dark side.

Define power? As it is a relative word for all of us

A dude who cleansed on his own a planet of Force,will easily surpass or equal Vitiate' s raw power.

And we speak about a physical fight!!! Lol

McP
Vitiate without a doubt. Nihilus is the most overated guy in SW universe.

Sinious
@ Freedon Nadd

Nihilus used a technique to consume that world and we don't know if he can use it against a powerful individual as easy as he used it against a defenseless population.

Name me one individual Nihilus defeated who even comes close Vitiate in power. He stomped Kreia and that's his best combat feat. Vitiate has far superior combat feats than that and since he has greater raw power, understanding of the dark side and accolades, I have no reason to think that Nihilus would be able to defeat him with drain.

SunRazer
Understanding of the dark side really doesn't equate to immunity from Drain. Traya had a far greater understanding of the dark side than Nihilus as well, but it didn't stop her from getting her powers drained by Nihilus and Sion.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
Understanding of the dark side really doesn't equate to immunity from Drain. Traya had a far greater understanding of the dark side than Nihilus as well, but it didn't stop her from getting her powers drained by Nihilus and Sion.

Didn't Nihilus take her out with TK first?

SunRazer
He hurled her back. That's a display of raw power, and it's obvious Nihilus is the more powerful.

What I'm referring to is knowledge of the dark side or the Force in general doesn't equate to knowing a defense technique against a certain ability. Vitiate hasn't even experienced anything like Nihilus's Drain before (the way Kreia describes it makes it seem like it's a different Drain than the standard one used by most). Kreia claims there's no defense against such techniques, too. And really, that Drain came from Malachor V, which Vitiate doesn't know about (and he doesn't have the knowledge from Malachor V's archives, either), so there's nothing to suggest that his knowledge bank includes a defense against Nihilus's Drain. Heck, Kreia studied Malachor's archives and still knew of no defense against Nihilus's Drain.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
He hurled her back. That's a display of raw power, and it's obvious Nihilus is the more powerful.

Yeah that's the point. Nihilus didn't defeat her with drain. He disabled her with TK and then Sion beat her up pretty bad. Kreia had the advantage in understanding of the force but lacked to raw power to compete with Nihilus. Vitiate has the upper hand in both so he won't be in a vulnerable position like Kreia was.




Are you sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y#t=277

Start watching from 3:45 and you'll see that Kreia says he is using the same technique that the ancient sith used. She even says he merely rivals them and hasn't surpassed them yet.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah that's the point. Nihilus didn't defeat her with drain. He disabled her with TK and then Sion beat her up pretty bad. Kreia had the advantage in understanding of the force but lacked to raw power to compete with Nihilus. Vitiate has the upper hand in both so he won't be in a vulnerable position like Kreia was.




Are you sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y#t=277

Start watching from 3:45 and you'll see that Kreia says he is using the same technique that the ancient sith used. She even says he merely rivals them and hasn't surpassed them yet.

confused Doesn't she say ""It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."? She doesn't relate that technique to the Sith,she says someone must experience something like Nihilus(tanked the Mass Shadow Generator) They must be sympthomatic of a Void in the Force to achieve that.

We don't know what she meant by "Which may rival the ancient Sith."

Knowledge,strength,conquest?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Yeah that's the point. Nihilus didn't defeat her with drain. He disabled her with TK and then Sion beat her up pretty bad. Kreia had the advantage in understanding of the force but lacked to raw power to compete with Nihilus. Vitiate has the upper hand in both so he won't be in a vulnerable position like Kreia was.

So we thought when we watched some of the movies and we thought Sidious was weak and frail because he didn't use most of the time his lightsaber,but well it turned out he's officially the most powerful Sith Lord.

Let's see if Jacen and Luke turn against Sidious,can they f**k him up?

Yeah,they can...

Watch here,Lord Sinious:

"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."

―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith

"Darth Nihilus is so corrupted in the Dark Side that his very speech causes pain and death to all who hear it."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
@ Freedon Nadd

Nihilus used a technique to consume that world and we don't know if he can use it against a powerful individual as easy as he used it against a defenseless population.

Name me one individual Nihilus defeated who even comes close Vitiate in power. He stomped Kreia and that's his best combat feat. Vitiate has far superior combat feats than that and since he has greater raw power, understanding of the dark side and accolades, I have no reason to think that Nihilus would be able to defeat him with drain.



"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet of Katarr, where a secret conclave of the most powerful Jedi were taking place."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Featless,I know! laughing

Sinious
Literally not a single thing you said refuted my arguments.

Again, tell me a single person Nihilus defeated in combat other than Kreia and Sion.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Literally not a single thing you said refuted my arguments.

Again, tell me a single person Nihilus defeated in combat other than Kreia and Sion.

You said Nihilus only killed defenseless beings,I proved it isn't true.

How it would be to prove me who the Emperor defeated in combat(lightsaber+Force power) without amping devices and trinkets?!

Freedon Nadd
"The surface was dotted with the inanimate remains of Nathema's inhabitants, as the ritual had not consumed its victims' clothing or belongings, and the lack of natural scavengers left everything in exactly the same condition it was on the day of the ritual."-Wookieepedia

Well look here,Nihilus' Hunger also consumed the other and their clothes too. So clearly,Vitiate's Ritual doesn't compare with Nihilus' Hunger. :P

Freedon Nadd
Nihilus: -

Drain: Killing the Force on Katarr full of people non-sensitives,Miraluka and the most powerful Jedi Masters in like perhaps an hour(speaking about planets), with a single utterance.

Telekinesis: Ripping a gigantic Warship out of the grasp of a Planetary Gravity-Well.

Force Durability: Tanking a blast that ripped a Planet into pieces.


And where does Vitiate stack in relation to this?

Vitiate needed the help of thousands of other Sith Lords to drain a populace, after a lengthy ritual.

His Force TK ability is far weaker than Nihilus as well.

And last I checked, Vitiate couldn't tank the destruction of a world.

- Vitiate is far weaker than Nihilus.

Freedon Nadd
Kreia says 'It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves'. Avellone says that its a technique known to the Ancient Sith in an interview. He does stress that what he's saying isn't canon though, whether that extends to that though is ambiguous.

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You said Nihilus only killed defenseless beings,I proved it isn't true.

How it would be to prove me who the Emperor defeated in combat(lightsaber+Force power) without amping devices and trinkets?!

No I said Nihilus drained on a planetary scale but it was against defenseless population and that doesn't mean he can kill extremely powerful individuals with drain as well.

LOL where did Vitiate ever use devices or trinkets for combat?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
No I said Nihilus drained on a planetary scale but it was against defenseless population and that doesn't mean he can kill extremely powerful individuals with drain as well.

LOL where did Vitiate ever use devices or trinkets for combat?

Vitiate, the Sith Emperor of the TOR timeframe, is an influential character on the TOR multimedia project and thus attracts extensive attention. His further marketing through the timeline videos and The Old Republic: Revan made him more famed, especially the latter product, which gave him his backstory, but more importantly (to the battles forum) established a number of feats that many people have been using and, for the most part, overexaggerating or blowing out of proportion on some level. The Revan novel was not necessarily a good product, but it was attractive to many people due to the popularity of the titular character, Revan, which automatically promoted the novel. As a result, many people bought the product and became exposed to Vitiate as a character. His showings, from the novel, from implications in the timeline videos, and from the MMORPG video game The Old Republic itself, the initial source of the entire multimedia project, have been repeatedly used to suggest he is one of, or the, most powerful Sith Lord/Force user in history. While the former proposition may, but not conclusively, have merit, the latter proposition is completely false. I may make a blog to address the most powerful Sith Lord later, but the more pressing issue at the moment is Vitiate himself - the character, and how his feats are heavily misconceived by the majority of users on these (and other) forums, leading to misconstructions which can be found in almost every thread pertaining to the character.

At an initial glance, the nature of Vitiate's feats occur on a vast scale (I am referencing planetary scales), or within the parameters of his young age, or are simply seemingly impressive (perhaps built off a chain of other misconstrued concepts). The reality, however, is that the vast majority of his feats occurred within favorable circumstances. The obvious retort would be - he's a Sith, and like all other Sith, he would play within the most favorable circumstances for himself. However, this is not the same breed of "favorable circumstances" I am referring to. What I am referring to, is amplifying circumstances. Nearly all of Vitiate's feats occur while he is amped, or supported by multiple other Force users, or both. A large number of feats are also accomplished with prep. Few of his feats are accomplished by virtue of his own power (I will address these feats last of all).

And for the record, since this tidbit of information doesn't belong anywhere else, Vitiate is not even a lightsaber user. All of his feats are Force-related, and he has not only no feats with a lightsaber, but doesn't even wield one. In the Revan novel, he picks up Revan's lightsaber but doesn't really appear to know how to use it. In the TOR game, it appears he finally utilizes a lightsaber, although this is never shown in a cutscene and therefore is only game mechanics. His illusions did utilize a lightsaber, but they are just that - illusions. To be fair, you could argue they were duplicates of him, but even then, he is not a notable lightsaber wielder by any stretch of the imagination. No feats, no accolades, and logically, he is not a warrior.

Returning back to the main issue of Vitiate's manner of feats, a strong majority of these are accomplished through prep, support from multiple other Force users, or while he is simply amped. First addressing the ritual on Nathema, which is often brought up because it seems very impressive and even eclipses Nihilus's Draining of Katarr, the ritual was under extensive preparation and not done under his own power. there were no amps to speak of, but there was prep and also over 8,000 other Sith Lords supporting him. Now, somebody who has read The Old Republic: Revan may be quick to point out the Nyriss claimed it was only a hundred Sith Lords, not 8,000, but more recent sources claimed that it was eight thousand Sith. Not only that, but Nyriss herself only lived more than a millennium later, so she would not have the most reliable account. On the other hand, objective sources from a third-person perspective have suggested it was eight thousand Sith Lords, and those sources, covering the events as though through an omniscient perspective, would be more reliable. It is also revealed this ritual took place over the events of ten days - more than a week.

Sinious
Where is this from again? There are more than a few errors in there.

Freedon Nadd

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
No I said Nihilus drained on a planetary scale but it was against defenseless population and that doesn't mean he can kill extremely powerful individuals with drain as well.
This post gave me cancer. Not only was Katarr housing Jedi, but "the most powerful Jedi were taking place" in an assembly there.

"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet of Katarr, where a secret conclave of the most powerful Jedi were taking place."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"The last known Convocation occured on Katarr some 3,952 years before the Battle of Yavin. The assembled Jedi were slaughtered when the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus laid waste to the planet."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

no expression

Freedon Nadd
The next feat which is not noted nearly as often but I occasionally hear it being mentioned - the rituals that Vitiate used, the catalyst for the raging thunderstorms on Dromund Kaas. However, this, too, is not applicable in combat. We know it was some level of ritual - probably not the extent of the Nathema ritual - but still, not indicative of his power and not applicable in a battles forum situation. In fact, this showing was not just one ritual, but multiple rituals:

He is said to have conducted many dark side rituals and experiments that affected the planet itself, leaving Dromund Kaas storm-wracked to this day.

Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry 33: Galactic History: Dromund Kaas
There is one last ritual also used as an argument for Vitiate, which is the one from TOR in which he would have consumed the galaxy, conquered death, etc. However, this, as an argument, is the worst one that could be made for Vitiate. This ritual required incredibly preparation and circumstances - it was not ten days worth of preparation, but centuries worth of preparation, as Lord Scourge reveals in The Old Republic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFd4aoTQt_Y):

"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy. But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

Source: The Old Republic
As can be seen, the ritual required centuries of preparation, as well the initial starter of billions of simultaneous deaths. This will not be afforded to him in a typical battles forum fight, so why people bring this up as an argument is beyond me. Moreover, when the Emperor failed this ritual and his plans were foiled by the Jedi Knight protagonist, the Emperor was literally weakened from that sheer effort of even attempting, and the ritual never succeeded at all anyways because the billions of simultaneous deaths never occurred. This, too, is revealed by Lord Scourge as the player nears the end of Act III (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH2mGY0Azk0):

"Don't be foolish. We have surprised the Emperor, but he will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power."

Source: The Old Republic
The Jedi Knight protagonist (The Hero of Tython) also notes the same thing:

"His efforts against us have weakened him. Our enemy is vulnerable."

Source: The Old Republic

Freedon Nadd
So again, the ritual is a good showing of esoteric dark side knowledge, but that's it. It is, once again, not indicative of his power level, or his potential power, or anything of that manner.

However, it is not only the ritual feats of the Emperor that are misconceived. A number of his feats in general just operate while he is amped. All of his feats in The Old Republic: Revan take place on Dromund Kaas, a planet saturated with a dark side aura:

The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet - a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.

Source: The Old Republic: Revan
In the TOR game itself, at the end of the Jedi Knight's Act III in his finale battle against the Emperor, the fight also takes place on Dromund Kaas. The Emperor has a feat which he never demonstrated before: forming Illusions that were duplicates of himself, which is a decent feat. In any advent, people would be quick to note that, as I said earlier, Vitiate was weakened by his failed attempts at the aforementioned ritual, however, this does not mean Vitiate was actually weakened during the fight. Again, the fight takes place on Dromund Kaas, so Vitiate would be automatically amped. Not only that, but this also takes place within the Dark Temple, another prodigious dark side nexus:

Hundreds of years ago, the Sith Emperor ordered the construction of the Dark Temple as a burial place for his dead and defeated enemies, "to aid them in becoming one with the Force." Little is known of what rituals the Emperor performed there, but the Dark Temple has become a nexus of powerful dark side energy, and a place where ancient weapons and ancient secrets of the Sith lay sealed away in cavernous chambers.

Although the Dark Temple grounds have always been a dangerous place for the weak-willed (the expansion of the Kaas City power grid into tunnels beneath the temple drove a thousand slaves mad), the temple itself remained sealed until recently, when an expedition of power-hungry Sith Lords and their servants breached the gateway.

Source: The Old Republic: Codex Entry: The Dark Temple
As can be seen, the Dark Temple is still an incredibly potent nexus in of itself, capable of driving a thousand slaves mad. So while Vitiate was significantly weakened by his ritual failure, he was also significantly amped by being on Dromund Kaas, and by being in the Dark Temple, a miasma of energies prodigious enough to incite insanity in a huge congregation of slaves. Ultimately, this would probably cancel out, so Vitiate would have been neither amped nor weakened, making this one of the few "neutral" feats he accomplished. Casually producing three illusions of himself, pushing back the Hero of Tython, and, while mortally wounded, collapsing a portion of the Dark Temple are good feats for him, especially considering the lack of amplifications he had at this point.

With respects to a few of his other feats, Vitiate's TP is often mentioned. His feats are impressive with it, but his Mind Control is confirmed by Drew Karpyshyn to be only the product of prep, meaning that without preparation, he cannot accomplish these. In an email to another user on this site (who then scanned the email), Karpyshyn indicated that he could only accomplish these provided he had the time to focus and prepare beforehand:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/12/124590/3773446-5610774210-34999.png

DarthAnt66
Your final point isn't true. He mind****ed Scourge with a mere brush of his mind.

Freedon Nadd
4

Sinious
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This post gave me cancer. Not only was Katarr housing Jedi, but "the most powerful Jedi were taking place" in an assembly there.

"Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet of Katarr, where a secret conclave of the most powerful Jedi were taking place."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"The last known Convocation occured on Katarr some 3,952 years before the Battle of Yavin. The assembled Jedi were slaughtered when the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus laid waste to the planet."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

no expression

Yes I know the planet was full of force sensitives, thats what brought Nihilus there in the first place. Yet they weren't in combat stance and defending against the attack.

Tell me Ant, do you think Nihilus can drain the Father of Mortis as well?

Sinious
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your final point isn't true. He mind****ed Scourge with a mere brush of his mind.

LMAO Almost everything he says is wrong.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your final point isn't true. He mind****ed Scourge with a mere brush of his mind.

Now, Karpyshyn also said that his answer was non-official/non-canon, but then, it would be unwise and an appeal to ignorance to ignore this without referencing an example where he didn't have prep. Against Revan and Malak, they were already falling to the dark side, and it is heavily implied the Emperor prepared this anyways because they were revealed to be walking into a trap, which indicates that Vitiate planned this. That said, they eventually broke out of his influence anyways. He failed against Revan in the novel, as well, when he was surprise attacked and had no preparation beforehand. He did it to the Jedi strike team in TOR, but he may had prep, and they were all already defeated anyways, so that is not translatable to Vitiate actually winning a fight with TP in the battles forum. Regarding him possessing one of his Children across the galaxy, he seems to only be able to influence one at a time, and even then, this is the result of him having already established prior connections through some unidentified amount of prep:

Infants of every species across the galaxy were secretly visited by the Hand and brought before the Emperor, where he sunk his insidious barbs into their malleable minds.

Source: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
So that disproves the notion of his TP being an instant win as well.

Now, since I spent the entire blog disproving misconceptions about the Emperor and undermining a vast majority of his feats, I do want to credit him for what he has actually done. He should still probably be within the top 10 Sith Lords, but where he fits is still debatable, for me (probably between Vader and Tyranus, or above Vader but below Tenebrous). As a note for his actual feats, as a child, he stripped a Sith Lord of his power and his mind, and slowly killed his mother, as well as snapping his adoptive father's neck. By thirteen, Marka Ragnos was capable of recognizing his power and potential, and again, in TOR, he produced Illusions and hurled the Hero of Tython backward, as well as collapsing a portion the Dark Temple (since the temple itself seems to remain intact after you see the Hero of Tython leave). In terms of esoteric knowledge, he has utilized a number of abilities which would make him an extremely knowledgeable practitioner of the dark side, especially in regards to sorcery on the account of him knowing a variety of rituals. There is also an accolade which proclaims him the most powerful Dark sider up to and of his time:

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

Source: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
However, Vitiate is not the most powerful dark sider of all of history, since the encyclopedia uses an in-universe perspective and only describes events up to and of TOR's timeline, meaning it doesn't go not beyond that timeframe. Therefore, there is certainly the room for others to be more powerful.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Sinious
Yes I know the planet was full of force sensitives, thats what brought Nihilus there in the first place. Yet they weren't in combat stance and defending against the attack.

Tell me Ant, do you think Nihilus can drain the Father of Mortis as well?
Except they specifically lured Nihilus there to fight him. They would have been prepared.

Considering I don't recall even giving my thoughts on this fight, your statement is laughable.
Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO Almost everything he says is wrong.
If that is true, you two should get along well then.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Sinious
Yes I know the planet was full of force sensitives, thats what brought Nihilus there in the first place. Yet they weren't in combat stance and defending against the attack.

Tell me Ant, do you think Nihilus can drain the Father of Mortis as well?

If he can drain the planet before the Jedi could react, that's probably more impressive than if they did.

Sinious
@ Freedon Nadd

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Yes I know the planet was full of force sensitives, thats what brought Nihilus there in the first place. Yet they weren't in combat stance and defending against the attack.

Tell me Ant, do you think Nihilus can drain the Father of Mortis as well?

And neither Vitiate's 8000 Sith Lords weren't.

I would answer,if you (perhaps) don't believe the popular myth that the Father is a Star Wars God. stick out tongue

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except they specifically lured Nihilus there to fight him. They would have been prepared.

Considering I don't recall even giving my thoughts on this fight, your statement is laughable.

Atris did, but I don't think she told the other Jedi. It is possible they were in on it as well, I can't recall. Do the Masters mention it?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
@ Freedon Nadd

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

Ah I get it. Since Vitiate is so strong,stronger than Nihilus,this means he beats the shit out of your Emperor DE Sidious. laughing

Since SW_Legend said that Vitiate is the strongest Force-user. wink

Sinious
Did the Jedi actually know what he was capable of? Where they prepared for a drain monster?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Did the Jedi actually know what he was capable of? Where they prepared for a drain monster?

Did the 8000 Sith Lords actually know what Vitiate was about to do with them? Where they prepared to lose their life? stick out tongue

Sinious
I never said Vitiate's Natemha ritual is combat applicable. erm

NewGuy01
Fess up to your lies, you miserable sow.

Sinious
LOL

I gotta admit, I kinda started to appreciate your "Nihilus theory" thread after the nonsense I'v witnessed in this thread.

The Merchant
Actually I recall the Revan novel implying that Vitiate can pull a life drain on the planetary scale without a ritual but rather not do that and instead focus on his Galaxy ritual.

Sinious

The Merchant
Hmmm, Revan sorta implies it I guess. Although that's not definitive proof he could nom at a Planet any time he wants. Could just mean he could gather less Sith and make the ritual go faster.

SunRazer
@Sinious - Sources outright claim that they stripped her of her powers, lol, which is why she fails to lift the saber despite being on "a colossal geyser of dark side energy".

And that doesn't mean Vitiate knows a counter. Knowledge of the ancient Sith was destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War as well, and she was probably referring to Malachor ancient Sith.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Sinious - Sources outright claim that they stripped her of her powers, lol, which is why she fails to lift the saber despite being on "a colossal geyser of dark side energy".

And that doesn't mean Vitiate knows a counter. Knowledge of the ancient Sith was destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War as well, and she was probably referring to Malachor ancient Sith.

She was stepped of her powers I know but was that Force Push not a TK attack but drain? To me it seems like she was taken out first and then drained.

You claimed that Nihilus' technique of drain was different and I simply proved you wrong. Besides, Vitiate is an ancient sith and he is capable of draining as well. So what am I supposed to think here?

SunRazer
Right, but that doesn't have anything to do with my point, which is that deeper understanding of the Force counters Drain. And we're not entirely sure if she was Drained first, since there's no visual effects to tell us.

No, I didn't. I said the way Kreia described it meant that it was a possibility, so you didn't prove anything "wrong". For all we know, she was referring the ancient Sith who resided on Malachor V, which Vitiate didn't know of.

That logic doesn't work. Traya could Drain as well, but she also got Drained. If you're implying that Vitiate could Drain Nihilus, then his status as a Wound in the Force probably prevents that, although for once I do actually see a possible argument being made for otherwise.

Sinious
And as I said earlier, even if a deeper understanding of the force by itself isn't enough, it will help Vitiate a lot since he has also superior power and won't be taken out by regular force attacks.

Kreia addresses this very issue and says he is using the same technique. Everytime Kreia mentions the ancient sith, she is talking about the main ones we know of and if she was talking about the sith in Malachor in this case, I think she would be more specific about who she is addressing.

No Nihilus obviously has an advantage in drain department. All I'm saying is it won't give him the victory.

Let me ask you the same question I asked Antboy. Do you think Nihilus could defeat the Father of Mortis?

SunRazer
That's quite vague. "Help a lot"? How so?

She refers to some of the ancient Sith who created Telos's holocrons, not just Sadow, Hord, Ragnos, etc.

That's the biggest red herring I've ever known, lol. For one, I said Vitiate wins, and secondly, the Father's apotheosis elevates him beyond all natural Force users, including Vitiate, who was a born natural Force user who simply became more powerful through a series of complex rituals.

Apocalypse raises the possibility that the Ones were formerly Celestials.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
That's quite vague. "Help a lot"? How so?

She refers to some of the ancient Sith who created Telos's holocrons, not just Sadow, Hord, Ragnos, etc.

That's the biggest red herring I've ever known, lol. For one, I said Vitiate wins, and secondly, the Father's apotheosis elevates him beyond all natural Force users, including Vitiate, who was a born natural Force user who simply became more powerful through a series of complex rituals.

Apocalypse raises the possibility that the Ones were formerly Celestials.

Well the way I see it, a non darksider would have a harder time against this technique compared to the supreme masters of the dark side and being more powerful overall will surely help him. Besides, Vitiate has TP that I never mentioned cause I don't know if Nihilus would be vulnerable to it. Take example. stick out tongue

Aren't they all kinda from the same tribe? I mean you made it sound like Malachor Sith were a separate dynamic in Sith culture that had knowledge the other sith didn't. If that's the case, she would be more specific for sure.


I'm aware of all that you said about the Ones. I simply asked to understand what your point of view is on Nihilus. Some people don't even have him near top sith tier while others think he can drain whoever he encounters including the Ones.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Did the 8000 Sith Lords actually know what Vitiate was about to do with them? Were they prepared to lose their life? stick out tongue

Sinious
Originally posted by Sinious
I never said Vitiate's Natemha ritual is combat applicable. erm

SunRazer
1. Nihilus is more of just a primal intent with a sliver of emotion (sparing Visas and getting angry at her), not so much a mind, tbh. I doubt Vitiate's TP would work on him.

2. Well, you can trace their roots to the same origins, but essentially they splintered off or something, so they probably had different breakthroughs in knowledge and discoveries. I mean, we do know that different splinters of the Sith Empire (Sorcerers of Tund, Lost Tribe) had different powers/knowledge/views, so yeah.

3. Well, if you knew, you should know my stance, lol.

Nephthys
Nihilus was still capable of creating a holocron and conversing with others. His thoughts were warped, but not to bestial degree imo.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Sinious
Well the way I see it, a non darksider would have a harder time against this technique compared to the supreme masters of the dark side and being more powerful overall will surely help him. Besides, Vitiate has TP that I never mentioned cause I don't know if Nihilus would be vulnerable to it. Take example. stick out tongue

Aren't they all kinda from the same tribe? I mean you made it sound like Malachor Sith were a separate dynamic in Sith culture that had knowledge the other sith didn't. If that's the case, she would be more specific for sure.


I'm aware of all that you said about the Ones. I simply asked to understand what your point of view is on Nihilus. Some people don't even have him near top sith tier while others think he can drain whoever he encounters including the Ones.


For god sake,let's end this theory... The Ones aren't the Force itself and neither STAR WARS GODS!!!!!

The Ones are just a highly advanced race who are the best in mythos and most powerful of them. For example,the Son when struck down his sister showed remorse,this means he's not "THE DARK SIDE ITSELF" nor the Daughter "THE LIGHT SIDE ITSELF", nor the Father "THE FORCE ITSELF"... They are just the most perfect embodiments(no question)

Yes,Nihilus will "hunger" the Ones,but not because he's omnipotent,as his level of power is below theirs,but because of his unique condition that allows him to bleed the Force itself and feed on it.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus was still capable of creating a holocron and conversing with others. His thoughts were warped, but not to bestial degree imo.

Do we know that he created the holocron after he was defeated on the Ravager and his armor was transported to Korriban for burial or before that,when he still had a body and he was not so "corrupted"!?

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus was still capable of creating a holocron and conversing with others. His thoughts were warped, but not to bestial degree imo.

What makes you think Nihilus' TP won't mindrape Vitiate instead!? stick out tongue

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus was still capable of creating a holocron and conversing with others. His thoughts were warped, but not to bestial degree imo.

It's confirmed that he's pretty primal, or at least Kreia claims that (she also claims that a "stray thought" can draw him).

He does have some emotion/logical thinking, but he's almost entirely driven by his hunger as of KotOR II.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Nihilus is more of just a primal intent with a sliver of emotion (sparing Visas and getting angry at her), not so much a mind, tbh. I doubt Vitiate's TP would work on him.

2. Well, you can trace their roots to the same origins, but essentially they splintered off or something, so they probably had different breakthroughs in knowledge and discoveries. I mean, we do know that different splinters of the Sith Empire (Sorcerers of Tund, Lost Tribe) had different powers/knowledge/views, so yeah.

3. Well, if you knew, you should know my stance, lol.

1. He still has a conscience though, as Neph so delicately put. See this is why its pointless to debate about Nihilus. Almost everything about the dude is unknown so I choose to compare showings to get the best result and Vitiate has far superior combat feats + accolades.

2. Hmm while that is a fair point, the context Kreia's used the word "ancients" in sounds to me like she was referring to the famous dark lords of ancient times. I can't say for sure I guess.

3. I didnt see your "Vitiate wins" post though.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Do we know that he created the holocron after he was defeated on the Ravager and his armor was transported to Korriban for burial or before that,when he still had a body and he was not so "corrupted"!?

It was evidently after his body had disintegrated and he'd relocated his spirit to his armor. Krayt is asking him how he managed to do that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's confirmed that he's pretty primal, or at least Kreia claims that (she also claims that a "stray thought" can draw him).

He does have some emotion/logical thinking, but he's almost entirely driven by his hunger as of KotOR II.

I figure she was being hyperbolic and bitter. He's shown that he's capable of cognizant thought. But yeah, he's driven by his hunger, just in a way that an extreme addict is.

SunRazer
When has Nihilus ever exercised high-tier TP, though? I recall him draining people in his vicinity and corrupting them, but that's not exactly telepathy.

Sinious
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd

Yes,Nihilus will "hunger" the Ones,but not because he's omnipotent,as his level of power is below theirs,but because of his unique condition that allows him to bleed the Force itself and feed on it.

See this is what I'm talking about. Nihilus has no showings to suggest that he could drain beings more powerful than himself. Its your assumption and nothing more.

SunRazer
By that logic, Nihilus can't TK people more powerful than himself?

I mean, Krayt's Drained Abeloth with partial success, at least.

Sinious
Unlike drain, TK prowess can be displayed in various ways and not just against powerful force users to be impressive.

SunRazer
You ignored my example of Krayt Draining Abeloth, though. And unless we seriously presume Krayt to be above Abeloth, then I think it's a plausibility for Nihilus to be at least partially successful in Draining more powerful characters.

Sinious
Did Krayt face Abeloth alone? How is that relevant here?

Sure but again, these are all assumptions and there is no way of knowing how effective drain would be against Vitiate for sure just like Vitiate's TP on Nihilus.

SunRazer
He had some success against Luke, as well.

Vitiate's TP not working is a result of Nihilus's mental state, which is actually something we can logically claim as opposed to Nihilus's Drain failing as a result of "superior dark side knowledge and power". I've just provided two instances where more knowledgeable and more powerful beings were affected by a weaker being's Drain.

Sinious
So you assume that Niihilus being in a unique state of mind = being immune to TP and its logical thinking? My assumption is that Vitiate might be immune or at least can defend against the drain cause his position as a dark side practitioner is unique to other powerful sith lords. Why is that not a logical claim?

1 of those instances is irrelevant and as I said earlier in this thread, a more powerful light sider would most likely have a harder time compared to the living embodiment of the dark side. That's what I meant by having greater understanding of the dark side matters in such case.


Do you actually believe Nihilus can drain Vitiate or are you just entertaining the idea of it?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
I figure she was being hyperbolic

Hyperbole exists in KOTOR2?? laughing out loud

Stigma
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hyperbole exists in KOTOR2?? laughing out loud
Wut? LOL

Of course not. For instance, Nihilus speaks and all life dies. Obviously this is literal.

Freedon Nadd
Stop confusing Nihilus' Hunger with the Force drain. Oh gosh!

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hyperbole exists in KOTOR2?? laughing out loud

Hyperboles are in ROTS novel,Yuuzhan Vong,TOR,pretty in all SW universe.

Your point,Emperor Bobo!? stick out tongue

FreshestSlice
He's joking. You know, making a joke. We humans do that sometimes to produce this thing called "humor."

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He's joking. You know, making a joke. We humans do that sometimes to produce this thing called "humor."


confused Didn't seem a joke to me...

carthage
Vitiate.

Freedon Nadd
Originally posted by carthage
Vitiate.

Why is that? smile

SunRazer
Originally posted by Sinious
So you assume that Niihilus being in a unique state of mind = being immune to TP and its logical thinking? My assumption is that Vitiate might be immune or at least can defend against the drain cause his position as a dark side practitioner is unique to other powerful sith lords. Why is that not a logical claim?

1 of those instances is irrelevant and as I said earlier in this thread, a more powerful light sider would most likely have a harder time compared to the living embodiment of the dark side. That's what I meant by having greater understanding of the dark side matters in such case.


Do you actually believe Nihilus can drain Vitiate or are you just entertaining the idea of it?

Because Nihilus has no real mind to control. Vitiate, on the other hand, is still a Force user, so it's not implausible that Nihilus can Drain him.

I'm honestly not sure if he could, but decisively claiming either would be pretty hasty of somebody. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate at this stage.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
Because Nihilus has no real mind to control. Vitiate, on the other hand, is still a Force user, so it's not implausible that Nihilus can Drain him.

That's your interpretation of Nihilus. He still functions as an individual and makes decisions, reacts to his surroundings with a decent intellect. He can still talk and even create a holocron. I don't think he is as mindless as you think.



Which is why I said we can't know for sure.



Figured.

SunRazer
1. He's not mindless, he's just primal intent. He can perform basic functions (partly because of his Force Sense), but he's not exactly the type of being that you would actually mind control.

2. Really? You just claimed earlier that Vitiate's knowledge of the dark side stopped Nihilus from Draining him. Unless I misunderstood you.

Sinious
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He's not mindless, he's just primal intent. He can perform basic functions (partly because of his Force Sense), but he's not exactly the type of being that you would actually mind control.

And Vitiate isn't exactly the type of being that you would just walk up to and drain. We can do this all day. big grin




That's my thought on the subject but I never said I know it for certainty.

Originally posted by Sinious
See this is why its pointless to debate about Nihilus. Almost everything about the dude is unknown so I choose to compare showings to get the best result and Vitiate has far superior combat feats + accolades.

SunRazer
1. Nothing implies any defense to Drain, whereas Kreia does confirm the primitive state of Nihilus's mind. His power is immense, and so is his knowledge of the dark side, but you really haven't shown that he can resist Drain because of that. Nihilus not being able to Drain Vitiate is a negative and can't be proven unless you establish it as fact that Vitiate is immune to Drain.

Nihilus's Drain might not kill Vitiate instantly, but suggesting that it wouldn't have any effects whatsoever is a stretch in my opinion.

2. Okay.

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