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Whatup Matrix fans, as i watched the Matrix and Reloaded i started wondering Would it be really good to get out of the Matrix?? I Mean inside the Matrix ull live ur whole lives never realizing that u were in fact asleep but lets say that neo and the humans win and they wake up everybody else Whats there to look forward to? I mean the whole world has been pretty much destroyed, the earth is like a wasteland, How would they survive? Would they regret it? so my question to you all is this If you guys were in the Matrix and u were aware of everything Would you stay or would you want out? me ill say it in the words of Cypher 'If i had to choose between the Mtrix and the Real world I Choose the Matrix"

Which pill was which? I forget...

I'd leave Matrix. You get to use more guns than you would in the Matrix, and you get to learn Kung Fu in a few minutes instead of 5 years.

Same here.

True but once u r out of the Matrix and the machines are destroyed whay would u need all the guns and the kung fu, u wont have no one to fight except humans and that would mean that the cycle would begin anew humna-vs-humans, humans using machines -vs- humans using machines , machines taking over again, plus i meant living in a world that is a wasteland basically against a world that while fake its far more bearable to live in.

You could rebuild the world. Plus, you could make more cities like Zion. And you could use your Kung Fu for good, like you're supposed to anyway.

I'd stay in the Matrix, Zion is a dump and I couldn't live listening to that gay rave music

that's a fair point actually

just to learn kongfu and use guns? that's pretty empty thinking imo

"hey I'm off to Columbia, easier to shoot a crimelord there then here"

yes, but tex's point is good.

of course

idd. i'd probably get out too.....and log back on to kick some ass...and flee from agents ofcourse

I would leave it sucks to no everything a dream world I would like to kick @$$.

id rather stay in the matrix and be ignorant.

I got out of it once, but came back, hey at least I know the truth now.

It's very much like the old Philosopher's Cave thingy... hmm. Well, anyway, Matrix now has its own area so I shall move this there.

i was wondering, from where did they get all the food in the Matrix2?, i dont remember seeing any fields or did they have replicators like in Star Trek?

Me I would take the blue pill. Ignorance is bliss. Besides who would want to live in a place where they have hovercrafts and high-tech defense systems but can't even lay down a few Zion dollars to get "the one" a shirt that doesn't look like he made it himself and ran out of material.

"What is real? .....real is simply, electrical signals interpreted by your brain"

I choose the Matrix. You wouldn't know it wasn't real.

Unless some black guy wearing a trench coat and dark glasses came up to you. Then it would be a little different.

i agree with chico, ignorance is Bliss, i choose the matrix

You have to look at it from neos point of view. He didnt pussy out like you guys. He wanted to know more about the matrix. And with this smart decision he is now the one.

IS NOT PUSSYING OUT, ITS BEING REALISTIC, THE REAL WORLD SUCKS, WHILE THE MATRIX WHILE FAKE HAS ALL THE LUXURIES

real world for me. don't care if it's crap. it's real.
i don't want to live in a dream world
i don't want some machine scraping my poop from my butt.
i don't want some machine taking semen samples to impregnate someone whom i care deeply for.
i don't want to survive off of eating dead people.
i don't want to be living a fake life.

...well since you put it that way....
Nope i'm still taking the matrix

If I got out of the Matrix I wouldn't want to go back in. Even though I'd prefer to stay in the Matrix.

The matrix doesn't deprive people of anything and it lets machines have a life as well. The machines have given humans a use.

who wouldn't want to try all those kung fu moves. but then you'd have to live in the real world which does suck. like cypher said, "ignorance is bless."

but the whole thing about that is, you are making a choice meaning you aren't ignorant. why do you think he didn't want to remember everything?

Cypher wanted to go back in the Matrix because he got tired of running from the machines, he got tired of those clothes he was wearing and the crappy food he was eating, i choose the matrix

I would get out of matrix but go there every day just for fun.
just imagine it could be the best PS2 ever.
Just like GTA- kill people, still cars and make some 30m. jumps.
get any weapon,fly helicopters it would wonderful.

Until you died!

for me it's pretty easy
if someone would offer it to me now I'd take the blue pill (I THINK)
if someone would offer it to me when I was in neo his situation (virtualy NO life and possibly no family) I'd take the red pill

What if you would be color-blind

What if you didn't want to take drugs from a stranger?

What if the pill would stuck in your throat?

No rational person should want to be in the Matrix. Rational people should value relevant, objective facts they do NOT know about as well as those that they do- though of course you would only value them in principle, because you wouldn't know about them specifically (else it would be a fact you DID know, of course). And in fact people act like that every day. Nothing simpler to demonstrate that than an unfaithful partner. Given the choice of not knowing about an unfaithful partner and living happily in ignorance, or knowing the truth, most people would want to know the truth.

And this is because people value their partner ACTUALLY being loyal, and do not only value if they KNOW the partner is loyal or not. And once you accept that people value ACTUAL facts and not just KNOWN facts, the whole concept of wanting to be in the Matrix is far less attractive.

The Matrix is deceit. A life made happy by deceit is not a life most people would choose if they could. And hence people like Cypher are rare, despite the obvious benefits of living in the modern world rather than stuck in a hopeless-seeming war.

And besides all that, life in the Matrix is at the whim of the machines. They will kill you at will and there is nothing to be done about it. It is also at the whim of the One; I don't want to die alongside the whole human race just because Neo fell in love. And if the machines find an alternative energy source to humans? Bye bye, life! My punishment for abandoning my freedom and taking the easy option of ignorant slavery.

i'd leave.... and keep hacking in... to kick some ass....

but you of corse could learn alot more than kung fu... you could make years of physics and other schooling.... in days....

Damn Ush, marital problems?,lol, (No OFFENSE INTENDED)Since i strated the post let me elaborate on your post, sometimes when people cheat on their partners is not because they do NOT love their partner, it could be just because of physical attraction or in a guys case because they simply want the girl and want some of her, does that mean they dont love their partner, no, it means they want to try something different(ill get to my Matix point soon) so lets say a girls meets a guy shes really attracted to but has a husband/boyfriend that treats her like a queen and one day the opportunity presents itself and she takes it and starts messing around with the guy and they keep at it for weeks/months but they both know its just a fling no feelings involved and every day she comes home keeps treating her husband/boyfriend the same way, no change whatsoever and then after the passion its gone for the other person fades away shes left with a choice, 1-Tell her husband/boyfriend knowing that there were no feelings involved, that she still loves him the same way as when they got married knowing that it will ruin or end their relationship forever? or 2- Never tell him anything because what he doesnt know wont kill him and everything is gonna stay the same as in a fairy tale?Matrix point finally, i dont think the machines would ever find another source of energy since thats the 6th matrix and thats been going on for a century/centuries and machines that sophisticated dont take long to adapt so they should have found another source already and they wont kill you i think 1-until u run ur life span 2- until u get out of the Matrix itself but my point is lets say that in after Revolutions the Agents and Neo & Company kill each other and some humans get the choice either to go a wasteland(real world) or keep living their lifes like nothing happened(Matrix) would u rather go to the real world where theres no atmosphere(i think) no way of growing food i didnt saw any in Reloaded), knowing thats all u have to live for or while disgusting u stay inside the Matrix and our bodies are sustained by the proteins lets say of the dead, we wont know because we in the Matrix and while yes the Matrix is make believe right now some people live fake lives, when sometimes they know their partners are cheating on them and because they love them so much or are obsessed with that person they wont say anythin pretending everything is ok when the truth is, theyre not! While i understand your point completly i dont think that makes me IRRATIONAL, if you were to tell me or had any assurance that when i get out of the Matrix the machines didnt messed up the real world so bad that someday the eco-system is gonna go back like it was but we dont know and we know is that the world is a wasteland not worthy of living in it, I choose the Matrix without Agents or Whoa Neo!

Another thing....All those Zionites have to eat that nasty white oatmeal looking shit. Imaging eating that day after day

Your point about love and relationships seems irrelevant... and studies have shown that most people would rather know the truth than live in happy deceit. It is an established psychological fact that people value ACTUAL truths as well as just the ones they know about. So it does not matter what you do not know about, from an objective point of view you would rather know the truth so to accept the lie is to deny your true wants.

It is all very well to say the Machines will never find another source of energy but the future is a big place and the Architect has said that they ARE willing to live without humans if need be. Agents randomly kill you whenever it suits you- they have no respect for you life and every cycle therer is a risk that the whole Matrix will crash and kill you all. By being in the Matrix you surrender most of the control of your life.

However, as to the rest, yes, there IS a point where living in the Matrix might become more desirable than the real world. To extend my own example further, yes, you would want to know about the deceit of your partner. But would you want to know if knowing would also mean he/she would get a bullet through the head from the man/woman he/she cheated with? In that case most rational people would chose ignorance- they would not be happy with that Hobson's choice but they would take it (in an abstract sense, of course).

But whilst there is hope for human victory and- and here I assume- hope for rebuilding human civilisation (because of Zion can thrive, then so can civilisation) then I think the world in the Matrix films is way short of that point.

And certainly it should always be clear that anyone choosing to live in the Matrix wiould only ever do it because it is less bad, not because it is actually good.

Like I said, I would want to leave the Matrix. More so now that Ush has pointed out the Agents killing you thingy and the crashing Matrix.

Well i agree wit u (Ush) to some extend but whos to say that the events in the Matrix wouldve been triggered at all if it wasnt for Morpheous waking Neo up because as seen in The Matrix as Agent Smith said all they wanted was Zions coordinates, whos to say that after that the Agents would be in the Matrix at all. And what u said about putting a bullet thru the cheaters head(in abstract sense) thats a matter of choice because i dont think that if i were in that position i know ill be pissed but i wouldnt kill her or her partner, i would just live her and dont look back but i do understand that not everyone thinks like that and true while most people would want to know the truth not everyone can handle the truth!(J.N-"Do u Want The Truth?", TC:"(YESSSS!), JK"YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!" but again i understood what u meant.

Huh? if you know that knowing the truth about your partner would cause her death, you would chose to know it? I didn;t say YOU would do it, I said that is what would HAPPEN. I think you ne to read some of my points more carefully because I do not think you DID understand.

I forgot! i think u are wrong about the Matrix crashing, most computers system have back up generators and a system as sophisticated as the Matrix they would have some energy stored because i doubt theyll use all energy at once specially since theyre machines and system crashing should be one of their priorities!

I do know what u meant, most people when are faced(males mostly) with the reality that their partners have cheated on them go crazy and loose all reason and sometimes the first thing that comes to mind is revenge, either beating someone up or shooting somebody. and what i meant was that AFTER knowing about the deception u are faced with tough choices and im sorry to say killing the partner is at the top of the list!

No, you do NOT know what I meant. Please read it again., My second example is that if you know the truth about your partner, she would die. I said nothing about the way jilted partners behave. Would you chose to know the truth in that circumstance?

And the Architect SAID the Matrix would crash, so any idea you come up with to counter that is just nonsense.

Furthermore, as it is the Architect who arranged for Neo to be discovered by Morpheus, your idea it is Morpheus' fault doesn;t really mean much.

Damn Ush i detect some anger in ur posts, if thats the case i rather not keep going! Lets put it this way, maybe every system crashes eventually but lets say our world is not gonna crash right now, not because of a virus but because of a geographic disaster, nuclear war or asteroid hitting the earth which have been predicted to haven in 30yrs or so but we dont know when anything is gonna happen, i see a mMatrix system crash as natural to them as a hurricane or major war to us because true The Architect knows about it and probably President Bush also, that doesnt mean hes gonna make a news conference to tell us if he cant avoid it or prevent it without us knowing so there wont be panic, again i apologise if u got offended!

But an asteroid attack could still destroy the humans in the Matrix. Why add EXTRA difficulites? Especially ones that are far more likely to wipe out ALL human life than the incredibly unlikely other events. The Matrix makes your existence VERY tenuous on a relative scale, inevitable when you give up control over your well-being to things that only have a utilitatarian interest in your existence.

true by my point is while some might know that is fake not everyone will and if the ones that do not know were told about it and how things are in the real world, would they want to wake up? i doubt it and most people lives are tenious right now and we aint in the matrix, i think, lol

That simply takes me back to where my point started. People are interest in ACTUAL facts, not just KNOWN facts, and if offered a happy life in deceit would not take it. Simply read my original long post again.

thats my point is NOT a happy life in deceit because as seen in The Matrix there were all kinds of people, like the homeless guy do u think he would rather sleep under a fake bridge or not being able to find a place to sleep outside of a shelter because the atmosphere is so messed up that u couldnt take a walk outside with suffering radiation!

Like Agent Smith said the 1st Matrix was a failure because they made it a happy place a paradise in the Matrix we know theres all walks of life!

Your point, I believe, is that it is a happy life compared to the real world, so the relative point from me is identical.

I agree with you Ush.

Living a false life isn't really living at all.

If you were living in the matrix you wouldn't know it. It would be like living how you are now. Would you say you are living now? Yes, because it's just a movie. But if you were in the matrix, you wouldn't know it and your answer would be yes as well.

I wouldn't want to be turned into a size 'C' Duracell battery. Maybe if they turned us into *2 size 'AA' Energizer batteries, it would be OK.

Jimbo3, that you do not know you live in the Matrix is completely irrelevant to the question at hand. The question is whether you would want to leave it or not, and that presupposes you have the knowledge and opportunity to do so.

right. that's why Cypher wanted his memory erased. He wanted no knowlege of the fact that he may not be living in the real world.

Ignorance is only bliss if you truly are ignorant. your question, would want to get out of the matrix assumes you know that you're not living in reality, thus you have been given an option. Since you know that if you chose the matrix, you would not be living in the real world, there is no ignorance. you are well aware of your choice.

I wouldn't have knowledge that I was in a simulationed world.

If I did and knowing what the real world was... death is preferrable.

a mind that is trapped, be it in the matrix or what we call the real world, with rules that are self limiting is (i.e. you can't live forever, you can't have more than one spouse or whatever) is locked in a cycle that can't be broken unless the mind is freed from the shackles of rules

so i would say i would definately want out of the matrix

Being freed from the fake world...

It would depend on what the real world was... If it was worse, then... not interested =P Either being eliminated, or live the rest of ones life in the fake world.

If the agents could be wiped out (by the help of Neo for instance), then the fake world could be a vacation spot.

If the real world was better, then, yes, leave the fake world...

There is also the question of adaptation...

They hinted that releasing people over a certain age (was it 10 years?) was seldom done. Because the freed people would be too adjusted to the Matrix.

So... If all you knew was a dream, maybe you'd cling to it all the same...

One downside of living in the Matrix is once the Matrix is gone there will be no physical evidence of people's contrbution to society or the world, just a bunch of glass eggs. Is that all you wan't to leave behind?
But the Matrix can't make anyone's life unhappy due to the fact it's not real (unless your that less than 1% of people who reject it). So if the real world sux you can live a perfectly happy life in the Matrix.
So the point im trying to mahe is, the ma....

hehe...i think the agents pulled the plug on poor jimbo there.

anyways, here's another valid point that most people WOULD want to leave the matrix. How many people within the movies do they ever talk about that took the blue pill? The answer: none. Thats because most people who are eligible to leave the matrix (those crazy ass one percenters) know that there is something horribly wrong with the world. And as i said before, your question assumes that you know that you ARE living within a computer generated reality. Every single one percenter who realized the truth, took the red pill.

Ignorance isn't bliss. Ignorance is weakness. Ignorance is you being a non-ignorant person's *****. The non-ignorant person would be the machines in this case.

Maybe you didn't receive the information that you live in a computer generated society.

The "knowledge" (or information) that the world is not real and that you have the means to leave this "fake" world, would be sufficient.

(In fact, Neo was not told much about the specifics of "fake" world that is the Matrix, until after he left it.)

And yes, you would be dependent on the machines... But perhaps you would not know that (you wouldn't know the specifics of the "fakiness" of the world you lived in.)

No one can be told what the Matrix is... Morpheus said something like that...

If everyone was treated like Neo in the first movie (ignoring the incidents with the Agents, only the scenes with Morpheus and the other "good" guys), I think that many people would take the blue pill. Because they did not previously doubt the world, and they would be sceptical of this "other" (real) world they were told about.

In Neo's situation I would think

"WHAT are those pills anyway?" *L*

I would be sceptical of accepting any pill from a stranger *LOL*

No, actually, as I pointed out before in great detail, given the choice between knowing the truth and returning to a lie, most people would want to know the truth. This is how people act all the time.

It'd seem to be a choice between curiosity (truth) or stability (cling to what you think is "secure", or "established"...

I think it depends on what kind of person you are.

If you are forced out of the matrix, it's another thing... Then you know the "real" world. You had no choice but experiencing it... Then you might not want to return to the lie...

But I think some people might not want to know they live in a lie in the first place. They wouldn't want to leave. Either scared of the true/real world, or uninterested (they might have such a good life in the fake world, why risk it?)

Well, I am an escapist *LOL*

Exactly, the same reasoning can be applied in the reverse way...

You think the fake world is in fact true, all your life you have experienced it. Now someone says... Take this pill and you'll live your life in this other reality (which could be the same as put on those VR things indefinitely.)...

The other reality is of course "more real", but it's another reality from the "Matrix inhabitants" points of view.

Tevesh - You have a valid point. If you know the real world...

Obviously, Cypher felt cheated.

Seems he felt that if he had known what the real world was about, he wouldn't have taken the red pill.

So he did not want to have anything to do with the real world, forget it all together.

*nods* Yes, that would seem to be the scenario.

I think some would take the red pill, and others wouldn't.

I personally would want to leave because i don't like people deciding for me what my life will be. But the fact that the matrix isn't real i have to disagree with. As stated in the movie what is real. How the brain interpurts electrical signals. The matrix is real the only diffrence is that you can't always choose your path.

It's not real because the events you are experiencing are not objectively true, regardless of how your brain works. Such objective truth is beyond relative experience and the fact simply remains that whilst in the Matrix what is objectively true is that you are actually a naked being in a pod. In the real world, what is objectively true is the same as what you are experiencing. There is value in that, as I described earlier.

i would definitley take the red pill-cos at the time your eally dont knwo what you are getting into. if i were there i think i would also like to be sort of 'in the know' like trinity and morpheus and everyone- they know what they are doing and everything and i would reather be like that than live in a world where a) something is wrong and b) people do kickass things and i cant.

I can see what Ush means. And it is true you are really naked in a pod. But you also have to think. Truth and reality are realative. In fact everything is realtive and based off circumstance. If two people witnessed an accident there TRUTHS could be diffrent because of diffrent information they recieved in their brain.

In this case both people would agree that an accident had happened but they could disagree on details. And in that sense their would be two TRUTHS or REALITIES. Each is valid to its owner.

So what im getting at is that to the people plugged into the matrix it is as real as can be. I have a question though what makes something real. Any answers are welcome. It would help the people think of rather they would leave.

No, truth is NOT relative. Truth is objective. Perception is relative but perception is not necessarily true. If two people see an accident differently it does not matter what they believe- the objective truth is that only one thing happened.

Reality, likewise, is objective. Only one thing is REALLY real. Any 'personal' reality that differs from this is, in fact, deception.

And I will say this again, all we know about human behaviour is that people value this kind of truth. Please re-read the thread to see what I said about all that.

I get the whole people want to know the truth thing.
I guess im having trouble telling what is real or truth. Or how to even tell. Since we have know direct way of telling it sort of leaves it up to the audience. How inlife do we know if something is real or true. ( this is a serious question not philosophical or sarcastic)

You don't, can't have the slightest idea. There isn't a single perceptual input that cannot be deceived by some stretch of the imagination. Though of course it is manifestly more likely that your senses are NOT being deceived (for a situation in which they are is more complex than a situatioin in which they are not and never assume more complexity than necessary) so unless you have good reason to think otherwise, best to trust your senses.

So you can only talk in the abstract in this sort of situation. Yes, people would rather not be deceived but they can only talk about this in a "If I were" fashion, something we have the luxury of doing with The Matrix as it is a fictional world and its creators can decidedly state what is true and what is not, and we can talk about whether the people in it would want to make the choice to leave or the choice to stay in happier ignorance. In reality, if you were being deceived you would never know it and the question would never be asked.

So here is my new point then. Would you leave what you KNOW is real. What you haven grown up in and explain. All for the promise of what KUNG Fu. I can see where Cypher was coming from.

I personally would still leave though because i do not being lied too and i am way to curious for my own good.

People simply do not like to be deceived, is all. They are willing to put up with some considerable hardship in return for not being so. It seems to be the pattern of human behaviour.

I think you and I said pretty much the same thing didn't we, Omega?

that was brilliant, i have been looking for a good indicator of truth and reality. Congrats very good

Ush> Yes, just different ways of saying that. And the (accursed) Moon orbits the Earth. Someone shoot me, please

i was under the impression that this topic was about whether you would want to get out of the matrix and be born in the "real" world. i'd say that i wouldn't because life in the "matrix" is good and you're so innocent and have no idea what is actually happening.

That IS what it is about. And that is what we are talking about...

oh good. well i wouldn't want to go out of the matrix.

i say free all human and rebuild the real world (i'd stay in the real world)

The Matrix ownz fool. All u gotta do is get rid of all the machines and agents. THen living in the matrix would be utopia. They could even change it back to like the first matrix where every thing is perfect. Then there would be no death, no disease, no starvation. They should find a way to download our conscience into the matrix, so we wouldnt need our mortal bodies and live forever. It would be exactly like heaven.

After Neo, Trinity, and Morpheus gets rid of all the machines, they should just have every1 jack into the matrix forever.

Humans reject a perfect Matrix, though.

I disagree with the idea of absolute truth. There is the truth that each of us perceives and holds to be true. And, there is the larger set of truths that we all (mostly) agree on and that is what we call reality. If absolute truth exists, I believe it is beyond humanity to know it - or even perceive it. To overcome the single point of view that we are is a monumental task.

To take Omega's and Ush's analogy of witnesses to an accident: Each of the witnesses speak from their personal truth - what they perceived. What all of them together (and those on the outside) agree upon may become the agreed upon truth or "reality", but that may or may not be absolute truth. Heck, that which is the agreed upon reality may not even change the minds of each witness as to what the truth is! Aboslute truth would require the sum of all possible points of view without disagrement or incosistency. That does not seem possible for any individual in this world. That's more of a God thing - To me, definitely not of this world.

However, it begs a point. Now we have a parallel between the question at hand - the blue pill or the red one as it pertains to the Matrix. Instead of asking whether or not we wish to leave the matrix, let's make the question relevant to this world: Do you want to submit to the agreement we call reality, or do you want to question it, prod it, poke it and find your own answer? The warnings and plot twists the W Bros put in M2 still pertain. Just like the Matrix, when "The One" questions the current reality and gets enough people looking at it in a critical eye, society and civilization either evolves into something more solid, or it is destroyed and a new reality - a new civilization is spawned.

Hmm?

In the Matrix, I'd take the red pill. In this reality, I already have...

Archpublican, you are mis-reading what myself and Omega say. We do not care what the witnesses AGREE on. The point is that no matter WHAT the witnesses say, only ONE thing happened. Maybe NONE of them saw it right. Maybe the aggregate of what they believe is utterly different from what DID happen. But that does not CHANGE what happened, even if no-one knows what it is.

This is simple fact. Truth is objective, not relative; things happen independant of their observation. Disbelieve that all you like but you will be wrong.

"Do you want to submit to the agreement we call reality, or do you want to question it, prod it, poke it and find your own answer?"

Strikes me as mostly irrelevant. The question at hand is the ine relevant to this thread- and riases more than wnough relevant philosophical implications- so we will stick to that.

Neo is the Six:

The reason why the utopia of the first matrix failed can be found in something called the game theory.

Basically, the thought is that human's need the game: They need a playing field, a goal, and of course obstacles and/or adversaries to overcome. Tree huggers see that if the playing field goes away the game of life is over. Sportsman see that without the possiblity of reaching a goal the game is useless. Philosphers see that without obstacles and adversaries we cannot grow. When we stop growing, we start dying.

Without a game, life as we know it cannot exist.

Archpublican, you are still wrong. No amopunt of talks of parallel universes- INCLUDING from physicists- in any way alters the concept of absolute truth. Parallel universes are irrelevant to the point that in a given accident in a given timeline the thing only happened ONE way, and mistakes witnesses make in reporting the one way it happened do not change that. This should be patently obvious. One of my best friends is a highly qualified degree level physicist and would be aggrieved at your complete misinterpretation of indeterminacy that you quoted. That does not change absolutel truth, it simply states that events are not certain until they interact with the universe (to think otherwise is to grossly misinterpet what they mean by 'observe'. It has nothing to do with whether people are looking at it. Interaction with the universe is the important bit). It would make no difference to the accident example at all.

That bad science now dealt with... the point still remains that what witnesses describe does not change what actually happened and nothing you say or do can alter that VERY simple concept.

I do not WANT any other question here, I want it kept on topic and your wandering prevarication there does not impress me. Your posed question is too far from the subject for it to be useful to most readers.

Accepting that Archpublican's science is not 100% here, best keep things more directly oin topic.

Parallel Universes, whether true or not were represented in the Matrix movie. I thought that's what these threads addressed? Check out the article on Parallel Universes in the May 2003 Issue of Scientific American:

sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000

But, don't take any theory too seriously people, they're just mental exercises to give us a better understanding of reality. There is a difference between theoretical or mathematic models of the real world and the world itself. Not just with inaccuracies in the models which would be an obvious difference, but models are just simplifications. The only real accurate theory of the universe would be the universe itself.

But, parallel universe theory has nothing to do with time travel nor are such parallel universes to be confused with dimensions. Does the fact that things lie outside our event horizon mean they don't exist?

I don't doubt you know what you are talking about Omega. But, that's my point. There are millions of points of view, and each of us are but one. However, you and Ush can no more prove the existence of absolute truth then you could prove the existence of God. Both are far from the realm of science and perception and in the realm of faith.

You're right Ush, I cannot change the concept of absolute truth, after all it is only an idealistic concept that cannot be perceived only imagined. It only exists as far as we know in the world of ideas. If I changed it, it woud be just another idealistic concept - but not absolute truth. But, I'm not trying to address idealist concepts, I'm trying to address the Matrix and how it pertains to our realities and the choices we make as addressed in this particular thread.

Questioning reality was in the matrix. It is germain to this discussion. Why is that verbotten? Ush, if you've some power or authority over this thread or these forums, please explain that relationship to me off list.

But, your reactions seem way beyond the blue pill and the red pill, take a chill pill. Spouting off who's right and who's wrong and what questions can be addressed sounds a bit obsessive. Running a trace program? Sending agents after us if we address even a closely related question?

Give us a break.

Absolute truth is not an idealistic concept to the rational mind- it is simply logic.

I am a mod here, Archpublican, and it is part of my jopb to keep these things germane and to the point. This thread is actually relatively simple- it is nothing to do with soulful insights on reality. Merely on whether it is worth leaving the Matrix for the depressing real world. Try not to complicate that.

Interesting. You actually started the digression of this non-germane discussion of objective truth in your posting in this thread on 06-11-2003 at 01:43 AM!

Anyway, I applaud you. Logic is a method and theoretical logic like absolute truth is an expression of it's highest form in my opinion.

But, physics and metaphysics are both subjects which merit the employment of logic. The dividing point is defined by whether a theory is experimentally testable, not by whether it is weird or involves unobservable entities.

So, Ush wants us to simply answer whether we would chose the matrix or the real world. But, you cannot employ any soulful insight of reality in coming up with your answer!

When talking decoherence and ergodicity, one will surely be met with incoherence and egocentricity. <grin!>

Actually, objective truth was directly relevant, Archpublican. I could directly state that people would want to leave the Matrix because what they were experiencing was not objective truth- that is how simple and direct it was.

I simply do not want the subject taken to too obscure a length- of all the philosophical debates here, this is the simplest- pleasurable deceit versus hard truth. I felt you were straying ntoo far from that subject, especially when you got onto parralel universes.

Omega: You obviously didn't get past the introducton in the article on parallel universes. I thought the Sciam article was quite cool. And, you might want to watch the Artictect scene again in M2. But, we can move off that point at Ush's request. Still, it's an intriguing article.

However, you say "Physics in BUILDS on logic. Metaphysics isn't. Hence it's name." Metaphysics means "beyond physics." As I said, logic is an intellectual method, a type of formal reasoning that can be applied to most any subject. Plato in the 400s BCE was one of the first to strongly portray the metaphysical concept that the ideal world - the world of immutable ideas was more real that the world we perceive. His biggest metaphysical concept was absolute truth.

So, you disagree with Ush? Absolute truth isn't logic?

Yet, the question at hand isn't about truth, it's about whether you would leave the matrix to the world of Zion like Neo and Sipher did.

I would leave the Matrix not because of any concept of the truth, but because it would expand the game I live it. I could live in the world of Zion and I could go into the Matrix too! Leaving would involve a greater challenge and an ability to gain a greater mastery over my environment. To me, it's not about truth, it's about self control. Thus, outside the Matrix I would have more freedom, and more choice to command my own destiny.

In the Matrix, I would be constantly at the risk and whim of the AI and the agents. The Merovingian seems to have left the Matrix, and he sure appears to have a good time when he plugs back in.

Ojective truth and absolute truth are synonomous. Relative truth is from our view point as observers, and objective truth is considered absolute as the theory goes...

I thougth "the truth will set your free" referred to telling the truth? You know, when caught in a tangled web of deciet, the truth will set you free?

What happens in M3 if what we thought was the true, real world outside of the Matrix turns out to be virtual? Does that mean that the truth is now false?

of course you would want to leave the matrix it isn't real.
i world without borders and boundries, not just the fact that you can fly but the mental restrants that we all live under.
deadlines exam pressures and relationship worries. in the matrix they are all multiplied in the real world you are free
red pill back real world blue pill back to the matrix

Arch, no, it would mean those who believed it to be true were wrong.

According to the dictionary, objective in this case means "independent of the perception of any particular mind or minds." Absolute in this case also means what the thing or event actually is - completely independent of what it might appear to any or all of us. That's what I mean by the two phrases being synonomous. Not the words objective and absolute, but the phrases as they relate to this specific metaphysical topic.

However, all our knowledge, beliefs, history - even our computerized analysis of data goes through the subjective filtering of our senses, our memories, our imaginations, our judgment, etc. All to some extent subjective. Objectivity - like Einstien's notions of absolute spacetime may exist - just not in the realm of this physical universe occupied by us humans. My point is not that they cannot exist, but that they cannot be perceived and are thus a matter of faith, metaphysics, ideals or whatever you want to call them.

If objectivity exists - and the religions side of me hopes it does - it is in the realm of faith not in the physical universe.

Even Scientific Method itself does not have pretensions regarding truth. A good scientific theory is only the best case scenario at the time and only valid until it is proven wrong. According to this widely accepted method, scientific theories can be bolstered by supporting evidence, but never proven true: Only proven wrong when that one contradictory case is satisfactorily tested and documented.

My comment about the "real" world of the matrix and truth is meant in this vein: If the only truth we can experience is subjective, we should alway test what we think is true and real, but as soon as we take it as absolute, we stop testing, stop learning, stop growing.

Ush said my example about if the "real" world is shown to be "virtual" in M3 only proved that the theory was wrong. Agreed. Yet, could it ever be proved true?

The only way a theory can be proved true is to see it tested in every event, from every angle, from every distance and every point in time both future and past. But, omnipresence and omniscience are traits normally reserved for God or limited to the realm of the heavnes. Yet, only in this way could we claim a theory or any perception is objetctively (or absolutely) true. We can believe things on faith. But, if we do so, we should understand what it is we are doing.

Lighten up people it is a simple question, no need for u guys to get aggravated as some of u seem, dont take it too seriously

I do agree. This thread seems to have strayed from the point rather again.

How do u play multilayer mode in enter the matrix plez tell me if u know how pm me or e-mail me at [email protected]

good lord.

it's very late. i can't sleep. and i just read eight pages filled with very difficult vocabulary.

*sigh* unfortunately, i have a very strong stance on this issue and feel compelled to answer. i'll do what i can to answer this (seemingly) simple question -- hopefully i'll keep it simple so no one else reading this thread has to deal with metaphysics and the theory of relativity and the likes.

truth is objective.
if every single man, woman, child, creature, and living thing on this planet was BLIND, leaves on a summer tree would still be green and cherries would be red. regardless of wether we saw it that way or not. our perception does nothing, absolutely nothing, to change that (omega, i think your moon orbiting example hit on that as well).

similarly, if all 6 billion of us believed -- believed with all our hearts, to the point of saying we KNEW it to be true -- that elephants could fly, it would not make our statement true. perception means precisely squat in reality. objective, by definition, is not subjective. it sounds stupid, but think about that: someone's opinion on that car accident does mean the car accident happened that way. so no, their perception does not make a separate truth of their own -- it simply means they're wrong.

simply put (too late, i'm afraid), someone in here asked "what makes something real." the answer is, NOTHING. if it is real, it is real. if it is truth, it is truth. and objective truth wavers to nothing.

so, to answer the question.
anyone who chooses a perceived and utopian "reality" (the subjective truth) of the matrix over the reality (the objective truth) of the real world is simply a deficient human being. no fully developed ego, in the freudian/kohlberg sense, would choose the matrix over the real world.

it has nothing to do with fear of the matrix crashing. it has everything to do with "i cannot live in something that is false." if i was presented with the choice, but promised nothing would ever go wrong in the matrix, and promised that i would have -- i don't know -- no arms in the real world, i would still choose the real world.

someone raised the point of, what if you were some big shot with a great life in the matrix? well . . . better to be a lamb in heaven than a lion in hell, i say.

and so, my choice is and always will be the red pill. objective truth over subjective falsehood.

PS: ush, you remind me of my 11th grade theology teacher with all that objective vs. subjective talk.

two things i want to add to my own post:

first, when i said, "someone's opinion on that car accident does mean the car accident happened that way," i meant, "someone's opinion on that car accident DOESN'T mean the car accident happened that way."

second, a couple of you alluded to the story of the cave (plato, right?). i think it's a very appropriate story, especially in relation to the matrix. if you know the story, skip this set off passage below. if not, i'll save you the trouble of looking it up by explaining it as best as my memory serves me. . .
-----------------------------
what if, for our entire lives, we've been living in a cave? we've been strapped down so that we cannot move, and our heads can not turn anywhere. therefore, for our entire lives, all we can see is the cave wall in front of us. behind us on a ledge are men with a fire, casting shadows on the far cave wall that we can see (but not our own, since we are at the base of the ledge). whatever shadows they put up on that wall is reality to us. we never question it, because that's all there is. we are not aware that we are being shackled, because we were born like this. so these men have a strong control over what is truth TO US.

now say one day a man was let go. just up and released. he would have a hard time understanding the men with the fire behind him. to him, even though this was all strange and new, the shadows on the wall still represented reality. now say he left the cave, and went outside for the first time ever. it would take him some time to adjust to the sunlight. he would have to start by keeping his eyes closed. then only looking at the ground. then only seeing the sky's reflection in water. then, finally, he could look up at natural sunlight (in this case, the real truth. the objective truth. reality). he would see real trees, instead of a shadow of a tree, and so forth.

it would then be this man's duty, as a human being, to do what he could to free all the others in the cave from a false reality, and show them truth. they, of course, would be hard fought to accept this. they would hold on to their shadows as long as they could, bent to the idea that this is their reality because it's all they've ever known.
-------------------------

i just thought this story was a lot like the story of the matrix. morpheus even says in the first one that most people are so deep in the matrix that they would fight to save it. but, nevertheless, he would do all he could to show them truth. i mean, clearly it's a lot like what neo went through. he had a very difficult time grasping on to the concept, because he had been in the matrix for so long. but it is, however comforting to us, a world of shadows beyond our control and choice. regardless of its utopian aspect compared to the real world, it is not an ideal life to live.

again, i choose the red pill.

Dig baby.

"If I had to choose between Morpheus's Dance Party and the Matrix, I'd choose the Matrix"

i think i'd stay in and get the life sucked out of me by machines and be fed liquified dead humans. (NOT)

i am a lucid dreamer (i dont know if any1 out there is also) and since i can acheive anything in my dreams, if it was possible i'd nevr wake up evn tho i know it is a false reality. however, in the matrix u cant do wutevr u want like in a dream, so i would choose the real world, going for the truth (as i see it) in place of privilege or power, since the real world holds no extra power. once i could control gravity, etc, in the matrix, i would live in it, evn knowing it was false.

it would suck to be in the real world cuz everything is gone and theres nuttin to do except kill machines and eat crap.

i would

the real world is destoryd the matrix is perfect

*doesnt care*

me2 (live in the real world that is)...only if i was picked up by someone named Roland tho

hmmm...

let me put it this way Korri, would u complain if it was Neo who rescued u from de matrix?

definately not

we all live in world, the real world and matrix world. but we ae confused which is real and which is matrix world because we rely on our senses to guide us.
how would we know the reality? to look beyond what the senses can show us. Does this make any sense. This is the path of mystics...who know the reality of the world through their mystic apptaoch. read these details in

matrixjourney.com/mythology.htm

thats what i thought ud say hehe, oh look there he is now. I'll go and leave the 2 of u alone shall i?