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Neutral ground location

Who wins?

Team 1. Sidious can remove Kenobi and Grievous practically instantly.

Didnt Grievous tank Sidious's lightning in Son of Dathomir?

The only wildcard here is whether or not Windu manages to superamp himself with Vapaad. Otherwise, team 1.

Windu holds off Sidious while Vader beats Dooku and quite easy if he has Obi-Wan and Grievous as back up. Then they team up with Windu and finish Sidious.

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Windu holds off Sidious

How?

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Windu holds off Sidious while Vader beats Dooku and quite easy if he has Obi-Wan and Grievous as back up. Then they team up with Windu and finish Sidious.

Sidious would dispatch windu while dooku hs dispatched Obi wan and grevious and his taking on vader who I do not know if it is all rots or post suit vader but if Sidious is trying windu will be killed and dooku would only be dealing with vader since grevious and obi wan would both be taken out so I give the win to team 1 the best sith ever

Really hard to tell. If Sidious will try to remove Kenobi or Grievous with the Force, Vader might be able to catch him off-guard with TK (like Maul did in the deleted scene).
If Sidious will try to remove them by blitzing them, I'm not sure if he will be able to.

Originally posted by Trocity
How?

History repeats itself.

If Windu can get to Sidious faster than Sidious could remove Kenobi and/or Grievous than I think team 2 wins. If not, team 1.

Why do people think Windu can just vaapad Sidious' ass on any given day?

He doesn't even need to beat him. Just hold his own long enough for Kenobi, Vader & Grievous to dispose of Dooku, which wouldn't take long.

Team 1 imo, and here's why.
Mace could not prevent Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto from being cut down in seconds he will not prevent Kenobi and Grievous from being ashed or worse especially not with Dooku supporting.

Additionally Dooku on neutral ground is >/= Windu according to Dark Rendezvous and a source book. At WORST Dooku gives Mace the fight of his life, a fight that will still be going on once Sidious chars Kenobi, Vader, and Grievous to well done.

The only chance of winning is if Windu engages Sidious from the start and Vader Grievous and Kenobi overwhelm Dooku. The problem with this theory is that:

A. On Neutral ground (assuming a flat plane) Sidious will have ample room to use his force powers on Mace. And given how he choked out Dooku a galaxy away Mace is not likely to fare any better until he's completely submerged in Vaapad.

B. Sidious is faster than Mace. And as I said before if Mace could not prevent his fellow Jedi from getting slaughtered I don't see him being able to stop Kenobi and especially Grievous from getting owned.

C. Even if Mace tries to solo Sidious, odds are Sidious and Dooku who are likely to have excellent synergy will not let the team separate them, let alone let 3 combatants try and overwhelm one. Sidious and Dooku are not idiots, the moment they notice that its a 3v1 either Dooku will leverage his position to be closer to his master or Sidious will use his ridiculous speed to return to his apprentice.

Either way the only way for Team 2 to be victorious is to separate Sidious and Dooku, and considering this is no Naboo energy chamber, I highly doubt they'd be able to accomplish this on neutral ground.

Sidious and Dooku 9/10

I think Vader would have to be the one facing Sidious and he wouldn't last long without help, but no one else here really adds much in the way of force power, which is really what's needed.

Splitting them up 2v1 favors team 1 for sure. Dooku can take Kenobi and Grievous simultaneously while Sidious beats the other two, as Vader and Mace are the best bets to fight Sidious. Make Mace fight Dooku and then Sidious just gets rid of Kenobi and Grievous then beats Vader.

I'm really tired but I can't think of any way team 2 can win this.

Mace wouldn't last longer against Sidious than Vader would 1v1 though.

The moment Sidious lobs off Vader's hand its game over (and with Sidious' speed and power he's Vader's worst nightmare so it'll happen).

The question here is, can Mace superamp with Vapaad against Sidious? Can he reflect Sidious's power back at him per the canon duel?

Or is there a reason he can't do that?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Additionally Dooku on neutral ground is >/= Windu according to Dark Rendezvous and a source book. At WORST Dooku gives Mace the fight of his life, a fight that will still be going on once Sidious chars Kenobi, Vader, and Grievous to well done.

Windu Vaapad's Dooku's ass. Sure, Dooku may be superior to normal Windu but not one amped off Vaapad.

Team 2 takes this.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Team 1 imo, and here's why.
Mace could not prevent Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto from being cut down in seconds he will not prevent Kenobi and Grievous from being ashed or worse especially not with Dooku supporting.

Additionally Dooku on neutral ground is >/= Windu according to Dark Rendezvous and a source book. At WORST Dooku gives Mace the fight of his life, a fight that will still be going on once Sidious chars Kenobi, Vader, and Grievous to well done.

The only chance of winning is if Windu engages Sidious from the start and Vader Grievous and Kenobi overwhelm Dooku. The problem with this theory is that:

A. On Neutral ground (assuming a flat plane) Sidious will have ample room to use his force powers on Mace. And given how he choked out Dooku a galaxy away Mace is not likely to fare any better until he's completely submerged in Vaapad.

B. Sidious is faster than Mace. And as I said before if Mace could not prevent his fellow Jedi from getting slaughtered I don't see him being able to stop Kenobi and especially Grievous from getting owned.

C. Even if Mace tries to solo Sidious, odds are Sidious and Dooku who are likely to have excellent synergy will not let the team separate them, let alone let 3 combatants try and overwhelm one. Sidious and Dooku are not idiots, the moment they notice that its a 3v1 either Dooku will leverage his position to be closer to his master or Sidious will use his ridiculous speed to return to his apprentice.

Either way the only way for Team 2 to be victorious is to separate Sidious and Dooku, and considering this is no Naboo energy chamber, I highly doubt they'd be able to accomplish this on neutral ground.

Sidious and Dooku 9/10

Well said.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
The question here is, can Mace superamp with Vapaad against Sidious? Can he reflect Sidious's power back at him per the canon duel?

Or is there a reason he can't do that?

Given that this is neutral ground Sidious and Dooku's force powers will give them control of the battle. Why would they simply let team 2 choose who's going to fight who? Not to mention if anyone would fight Mace it'd be Dooku since he's familiar with Vaapad's strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Mace could not prevent Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto from being cut down in seconds
Kenobi and Grievous are not Kolar, Fisto or Tiin. They could be remove by the Force attacks easily, but blitzed? I'm not so sure.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And given how he choked out Dooku a galaxy away Mace is not likely to fare any better until he's completely submerged in Vaapad.
I doubt, that Sidious could do that to Dooku whenever he want, as I doubt, that Dooku raised his guard in the Force during speaking to his master.
Choke or not, it's part of TK. If Dooku's guard would be that easily to break for Sidious, Yoda should be able to break it as easily as well. But he couldn't.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The only chance of winning is if Windu engages Sidious from the start and Vader Grievous and Kenobi overwhelm Dooku. The problem with this theory is that:

...that Windu wont be able to charge at Sidious the way he needs to. At the beggining of their fight in ROTS, Windu could do nothing. During those few seconds after Fisto's death, he was almost running from Sidious.

Sidious is faster, more agressive and the first move is his.

If the team 2 will decide to split it to two fights 2v1, then they are doomed. Dooku should be able to hold his own for a while against Mace and Kenobi, while Sidious would crush Vader and Grievous.

I think, that their best chances are:
Mace vs Dooku and Vader, Kenobi and Grievous vs Sidious. Unlike Mace, Vader might be able to prevent Sidious from removing Kenobi and Grievous from the fight.

Originally posted by McP
Kenobi and Grievous are not Kolar, Fisto or Tiin. They could be remove by the Force attacks easily, but blitzed? I'm not so sure.

And what defense will Kenobi have against Sidious' lightning? Same with Grievous. If it can catch Yoda of all people off guard and KO him, Grievous and Kenobi do not have a chance in hell.



Even if he can't choke him out he most certainly can send him packing with the force. And Yoda never tried to use the force offensively against Dooku. All he did was knock all of his attacks aside. The only time in that fight Yoda started to get offensive with his saber Dooku retreated.





Nah if Team 2 does Mace vs. Dooku and the trio vs. Sidious. Sidious will Kenobi and Grievous and then own Vader ala saber/ lightning combo.


Also Mace vs. Dooku can go either way.

How the hell can Windu vs a Dooku go "either way"? Windu's Vaapad is going to loop Dooku's darkness just as it did Sidious's. The difference is Dooku is weaker and won't push vaapad to it's very limits.

Actually...Dooku is too cool and calculated for Vapaad to do much. Dooku and Vader are probably the worst matches for Mace, because their rage is at a minimum. The more rage and hate a Sith has, the more Mace can feed on.

Vaapad reflects back darkness not merely rage.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

So no.

Of course one could argue that Vaapad would only amp him to Dooku's level.

Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad reflects back darkness not merely rage.

"Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again."

So no.

Of course one could argue that Vaapad would only amp him to Dooku's level.

Yes but for one DOOKU knows mace so he knows vaapad and and is calm cool and collected and also can block out Windu vaapad with is qua tec meditation and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work as well as it did against Sidious and even then he had a huge amp so I beleive that dooku would win since vaapad stokes are wild and Makashi stabs are precise and DOOKU is said to be windus equal or superior so I mean it could go either way but I would give the win to dooku

...except, Darkness IS Rage and Hate, mostly. That's what the dark side is made of.

Originally posted by Angelalex242
...except, Darkness IS Rage and Hate, mostly. That's what the dark side is made of.

And Dooku uses the dark side so...

Originally posted by ares834
And Dooku uses the dark side so...

Dooku could divert it because vaapad receives its energy from rage and DOOKU is calm when he fighters and so Windu wouldn't have that big of an amp and plus DOOKU is said to be better than windu at least be toe to toe with him and if dooku can dodge and block the broad strokes of vaapad then he could get windu with a precise stab watch Antoine balade dooku vs windu on YouTube and it will be explained

I posted an excerpt that directly states Vaapad channels darkness not merely rage. So no.

Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Dooku isn't a power duelist so that'd do nothing for him. Also Sidious is the embodiment of the darkside. You cannot possibly compare the amp Mace received against him to the one he'd get against Dooku.


Dooku's also gotten more powerful since he used to spar with Mace, and as far as feats go is the superior force user. Vaapad is great but it isn't an autowin against darksiders, especially not when said darksider has sparred with him on multiple occasions and is familiar with his form.

I'm not comparing the amp Windu would receive against Dooku to the one he received against Sidious. However, he does get to use Dooku's own power against him meaning Windu will at the very least be Dooku's equal.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Team 1 imo, and here's why.
Mace could not prevent Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto from being cut down in seconds he will not prevent Kenobi and Grievous from being ashed or worse especially not with Dooku supporting.

To be fair, RotS is a completely different situation. Windu had absolutely no idea what he was up against, other than he was the Sith Lord behind the grand scheme. I assume that in this scenario he knows the power of the opponent he's fighting. If so, this changes things. He would go in blazing and amping himself with Vapaad from second one. If he managed to get close to Sidious before he blitzes Kenobi or Grievous, team 2 has a chance. If not, and Dooku gets to Windu before he gets to Sidious, team 1 most definitely takes this.

I agree with the rest of your assessment, though.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not comparing the amp Windu would receive against Dooku to the one he received against Sidious. However, he does get to use Dooku's own power against him meaning Windu will at the very least be Dooku's equal.

Yes but the basis of your argument is flawed. Sidious is a power fighter, so Mace getting amped to his level of speed and power is a tremendous advantage. Dooku is not, Dooku is a technical fighter who uses excellent footwork and more precise movements. Meaning a small speed/ power amp will not change the outcome of the duel very much at all. Dooku fought against Anakin of all people who's raw power is way above Mace's. The small amp Mace will get from it will not really do much for him imo.

Most importantly for Dooku, his only real weakness, terrible stamina, isn't likely to come up in this fight. It'll be over far too quickly with Sidious there.

He doesn't have terrible stamina.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes but the basis of your argument is flawed. Sidious is a power fighter, so Mace getting amped to his level of speed and power is a tremendous advantage. Dooku is not, Dooku is a technical fighter who uses excellent footwork and more precise movements. Meaning a small speed/ power amp will not change the outcome of the duel very much at all. Dooku fought against Anakin of all people who's raw power is way above Mace's. The small amp Mace will get from it will not really do much for him imo.

Dooku is still tremendously powerful. Sure, not as powerful as Sidious but still incredibly powerful. So Windu is still going to get a sizable boost and, at the very least, it will bring him to Dooku's level.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=609699
huehuehue

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But now Windu can reflect Dooku's power back upon him so it's kinda a moot point. Sidious, certainly, appears to be a superior duelist to Windu and yet, via Vaapad, Windu is able to become his equal.

Windu was not his equal Sidious let him win so that point is mute

Sith win