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Nods to Carver9 in the Nightwing/Kitty Pryde thread, where he says she's s grade A MA trained by the best.

A lot of characters are trained in H2h/MA, some are definitely WELL trained...but really, not everyone can be top tier.

Just to get the ball rolling, i consider Kitty to be well trained yeah, but not top tier. Sans her powers she has no reason to beat NW.
Cyclops, Storm, Luke Cage...well trained.
They know what they're doing, and stripped of powers would mow down a fair number of henchmen or glass cannon villains for sure, but have no claim beating on top tier fighters like Nightwing.

Agree/disagree?

Any lists of examples welcome.

Im curious where someone like Shatterstar would be placed. In mojoverse he's supposed to be elite, but without weapons I don't know where he'd rank compared to Cap.

There's no actual answer to this. Any opinion is just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand. Sorry.

Originally posted by Digi
There's no actual answer to this. Any opinion is just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand. Sorry.

Damn thread deflater!

GET. OUT.

It's not a vs thread so why is it in here?

Because forum labels aren't absolutes, and the mods have day jobs. If there's discussion, it hardly matters anyway.

/shrug

Digi has a point. It's difficult to assuage who ranks where without an encyclopedic knowledge of everyone and everything. At that point debating no longer is fun. Plus characters like nw go up and down depending on events, writers, etc. He could beat shiva one day and lose to a mook the next.

Anybody remember the MA tier thread in the comics section?

THAT was a cluster****.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Anybody remember the MA tier thread in the comics section?

THAT was a cluster****.

sadly yes.

Punisher or Widow are my personal Laylines. If you beat them your in the top tier imo.

This is like the street tier version of the big 3 HH debate.

Just wanted to concentrate on this part of a good response (thanks).
So, we should just stick to easy topics, then?
I mean, Superman vs Thor can be fun, but its hardly a mental exercise.
I try and start interesting converstions.
-shrug-

Originally posted by riv6672
Just wanted to concentrate on this part of a good response (thanks).
So, we should just stick to easy topics, then?
I mean, Superman vs Thor can be fun, but its hardly a mental exercise.
I try and start interesting converstions.
-shrug-

Someone mentioned above i think it was kris but anyway, he mentioned that their was a ma tier thread. I suggest you look at that to get a better answer. Imo nightwing should never surpass daredevil. I feel they are true equals. Others may disagree. It's all arbitrary. You'll NEVER get a consensus.

I appreciate the spite response, thanks, they're hard to come by.

What i was curious about was those that straddle the line, like how Spider-man is about as high as a street leveler can go before they arent street levelers anymore.
Characters like Nick Fury, Dr. Strange...

Spidey's not street, he's a mid tier meta. Only.reason he doeen't wipe the floor with every street (Or group of streets) he fights is because he has "World of Cardboard" syndrome (They did a story where he beat Sin Eater out of anger, later saw the aftermath of his crippled body, and could't handle it. Had a nervous breakdown.)

Originally posted by cdtm
Spidey's not street, he's a mid tier meta. Only.reason he doeen't wipe the floor with every street (Or group of streets) he fights is because he has "World of Cardboard" syndrome (They did a story where he beat Sin Eater out of anger, later saw the aftermath of his crippled body, and could't handle it. Had a nervous breakdown.)

And yet he's a classic street level hero, stopping muggers, rescuing kittens.
Hence my question.

By that definition, Superman's a street level hero.

You're taking me too literally, but thats okay.
I'm not going to beat my example into the ground over it.

Anyhow, straddling the line, thats what i was hoping to suss out MA/h2h wise.

As to why, i've noticed when some characters that arent strictly h2h (Cyclops is a recent example) get put in those situations, they're suddeny treated as if they have if not Bruce Lee, then Jackie Chan level skills.
I find that funny and thought it'd be fun to look at.

Well unless you're herald level most street and meta level characters have atleast some degree of ma skills. Scott is one of them.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Anybody remember the MA tier thread in the comics section?

THAT was a cluster****. Superman didn't get enough votes to move from fourth tier into third after months of debate so general butthurt motivated a few people to move half a dozen characters like Ares and Damian down to fourth tier in a week.

Damian didn't get moved down, of course. Just all the Marvel characters.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Anybody remember the MA tier thread in the comics section?

THAT was a cluster****.

Do you got the link?^^

elite MA= Batman, Cap, KK, DD, Nightwing, Iron Fist >>>>>>>> Everyone else

Originally posted by relentless1
elite MA= Batman, Cap, KK, DD, Nightwing, Iron Fist >>>>>>>> Everyone else I'm ok with this.

Originally posted by relentless1
elite MA= Batman, Cap, KK, DD, Nightwing, Iron Fist >>>>>>>> Everyone else

Makes sense.

Missing a lot of people on that list.

I think somewhere around the Robin's. When Robin's graduate into bigger roles, typically it marks a transition into being a 'higher class' of MA.

This is not true of Batgirls though...

Originally posted by relentless1
elite MA= Batman, Cap, KK, DD, Nightwing, Iron Fist >>>>>>>> Everyone else

Shang Chi aka the Master of Kung Fu says hi, also Black Panther who has stalemated or beaten half of that list.

Maria Hill, Nick Fury, Green Arrow (Arguable in concerns to Ollie), would likely be the best trained just before jumping into the Top Tier MA's.

With all due respect to Relentless1's list, thats really vague.

Stoic, Supermutant and Existere, thanks for the thoughts, they helped much.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Shang Chi aka the Master of Kung Fu says hi, also Black Panther who has stalemated or beaten half of that list.
Black Panther , Cap and Batman all fight with armour.

They cheat.

^^^most biased post EVER!

Curious to know were people would rank Mandarin and his son Temujin.Those 2 have excellent feats of MA.Mandarin was capable of damaging Ironman's armor using his bare hands.He even fought guys with guns without using his hands.He didn't even drink or eat anything for long periods of time.Temujin was capable of hurting energy beings like Living Laser.

Low end top tier?

Originally posted by Supermutant
Shang Chi aka the Master of Kung Fu says hi, also Black Panther who has stalemated or beaten half of that list.

Nah, just one guy on that list. Cap.

Ha

Originally posted by riv6672
Ha

Well, if we're comparing MA stripes, the whole thing was a great showing for both guys, but martial arts had nothing to do with it.

Would love to see a real match between them.

Well...didn't old Cap just beat 3 shang chi's in hickman's avengers? lmao

Black Panther and Daredevil has fought twice that I know of. One was a "superhero stereotypical misunderstanding" where they both knocked each other down. Neither stayed down for long although DD got the last shot in.

The other was when BP body was being controlled by some goofy villain named Mindmaster.

So basically two stalemates.

edit here's a thread with scans
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=381991&pagenumber=1

BP also stalemated a blood lusted and mind controlled Iron Fist although he received a beat down.

Anyway I think anyone who can convincingly beat Green Arrow in DC and Punisher in Marvel in h2h MA is top tier.

For me Martial Arts in certain comics is just all sorts of confusing. Take DC for example. I have no idea how powerful the Nu version of Batgirl is, but Cassandra Cain, prior to the reboot, was a flat out bullet timer. Not merely an aim dodger, but a full on dodging bullets.

Yet DC still insisted she had no actual powers and achieved all that via training. Keep in mind she has other feats like fighting Batman and punching him so fast he didn't even realize she had friggin moved, he only noticed he had been hit once he nose began bleeding. DC would have us believe she achieved such a level just by training super hard.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Black Panther and Daredevil has fought twice that I know of. One was a "superhero stereotypical misunderstanding" where they both knocked each other down. Neither stayed down for long although DD got the last shot in.

The other was when BP body was being controlled by some goofy villain named Mindmaster.

So basically two stalemates.

edit here's a thread with scans
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=381991&pagenumber=1

BP also stalemated a blood lusted and mind controlled Iron Fist although he received a beat down.

Anyway I think anyone who can convincingly beat Green Arrow in DC and Punisher in Marvel in h2h MA is top tier.

It was worse then a beat down. T'challa actually ended up with brain damage that left him with a fatal anurysm.

But yeah, I consider it a good feat for Panther that he not only survived the beating, but cleaned up Danny's corrupted ki. Either way, not really a "match", since Danny was nothing more then a chi spamming berserker, and Panther was fighting to help him, not beat him.

Originally posted by Igniz
Curious to know were people would rank Mandarin and his son Temujin.Those 2 have excellent feats of MA.Mandarin was capable of damaging Ironman's armor using his bare hands.He even fought guys with guns without using his hands.He didn't even drink or eat anything for long periods of time.Temujin was capable of hurting energy beings like Living Laser.

He's a chi-channeling beast. Not so sure about his pure skill though. He often comes across as Collossus via chi-amping instead of turning to iron.

Originally posted by Existere
I think somewhere around the Robin's. When Robin's graduate into bigger roles, typically it marks a transition into being a 'higher class' of MA.

This is not true of Batgirls though...

Hm... when Steph graduated, she moved up to 'well trained' in HtH, and got *way* better with gadgets and stuff.


Cass, when she changed identities, well, there's not really any higher for her to *go* ^^ Well, not without being Karate Kid, but that requires studying alien martial arts it seems.


Ironically, pre-reboot, Oracle Babs arguably got better at HtH than Batgirl Babs...


And Batwoman started out pretty solid from the start, and didn't really change.


Originally posted by Surtur
For me Martial Arts in certain comics is just all sorts of confusing. Take DC for example. I have no idea how powerful the Nu version of Batgirl is, but Cassandra Cain, prior to the reboot, was a flat out bullet timer. Not merely an aim dodger, but a full on dodging bullets.

Yet DC still insisted she had no actual powers and achieved all that via training. Keep in mind she has other feats like fighting Batman and punching him so fast he didn't even realize she had friggin moved, he only noticed he had been hit once he nose began bleeding. DC would have us believe she achieved such a level just by training super hard.

Though to be fair, while they said she had no 'powers,' she did do stuff that was, quote, 'mentally impossible' for anyone else. Basically she could go faster because she had superhuman coordination.

Thats pretty neat...

Originally posted by Q99
Though to be fair, while they said she had no 'powers,' she did do stuff that was, quote, 'mentally impossible' for anyone else. Basically she could go faster because she had superhuman coordination.

It's like..who knew that having a father willing to shoot you with a pistol as a part of "training" was all it took to gain some semblance of super powers?

Here my father was just using a yard stick to hit me. This is why I can't dodge bullets, thanks Dad!

Lol

Ha, wasted opportunity....

Originally posted by krisblaze
Well...didn't old Cap just beat 3 shang chi's in hickman's avengers? lmao Inverse ninja law strikes again.

Where does being Karate Kid end and the rest of these losers begin?

Originally posted by Existere
I think somewhere around the Robin's. When Robin's graduate into bigger roles, typically it marks a transition into being a 'higher class' of MA.


I'm with Smurph - if you can beat Tim Drake (pretty much the worst Robin in terms of MA ability), you graduate from well trained to Top Tier. Because I'll give Timmy Boy the win over Scott sans powers any day.

After that the lines start blurring again until you reach Nightwing. Once you can beat Nightwing H2H you reach Top Top Tier MA status (aka, sub-Karate Kid status) where Batman resides with his buddies Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Cassandra Cain, Elektra, Iron Fist, Cap, etc.

I'm with Smurph - if you can beat Tim Drake (pretty much the worst Robin in terms of MA ability), you graduate from well trained to Top Tier. Because I'll give Timmy Boy the win over Scott sans powers any day.

After that the lines start blurring again until you reach Nightwing. Once you can beat Nightwing H2H you reach Top Top Tier MA status (aka, sub-Karate Kid status) where Batman resides with his buddies Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Cassandra Cain, Elektra, Iron Fist, Cap, etc.


agreed

That messed up quote made think i had another mini seizure...

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Where does being Karate Kid end and the rest of these losers begin?



I'm with Smurph - if you can beat Tim Drake (pretty much the worst Robin in terms of MA ability), you graduate from well trained to Top Tier. Because I'll give Timmy Boy the win over Scott sans powers any day.

After that the lines start blurring again until you reach Nightwing. Once you can beat Nightwing H2H you reach Top Top Tier MA status (aka, sub-Karate Kid status) where Batman resides with his buddies Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, Cassandra Cain, Elektra, Iron Fist, Cap, etc.


Tim stalemated and had the advantage over Dick in both of their most recent pre-DcNu encounters, and has consistently performed better against Jason then Dick ever has. Once he became Red Robin, he was easily the most capable Bat-kid.

That's all Pre-DcNu though. No idea where he sits now.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Tim stalemated and had the advantage over Dick in both of their most recent pre-DcNu encounters, and has consistently performed better against Jason then Dick ever has. Once he became Red Robin, he was easily the most capable Bat-kid.

That's all Pre-DcNu though. No idea where he sits now. Tim will always be the shittiest of the 3, give it a rest.

Originally posted by Mindset
Tim will always be the shittiest of the 3, give it a rest.


I know you love dick, but that doesn't change the fact that Tim would wreck Nightwing's shit.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I know you love dick, but that doesn't change the fact that Tim would wreck Nightwing's shit. Dick would beat Tim until he looked worse than your butthole after a night of working.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Where does being Karate Kid end and the rest of these losers begin?


I do think around the top of the top tiers is when you start to see KK-esque stuff, it's just the degree increases.

Shiva, Cassandra, and similar can destroy stuff above their strength level. Shang Chi can take blows he shouldn't be able to take. Cass has judo-thrown bizarro (Linda) Supergirl.

The way I read it, KK's basically those techniques refined and improved over time. What used to be rare feats created only by rare users, became studyable moves, all pieced together to make them stronger and more reliable.


Originally posted by Surtur
It's like..who knew that having a father willing to shoot you with a pistol as a part of "training" was all it took to gain some semblance of super powers?

Here my father was just using a yard stick to hit me. This is why I can't dodge bullets, thanks Dad!


Also, he needs to not talk to you.

Ever.

Originally posted by Mindset
Dick would beat Tim until he looked worse than your butthole after a night of working.

Originally posted by Mindset
Dick would beat Tim until he looked worse than your butthole after a night of working.

Mindset, if you could tear your eyes away from my arsehole for just a second, you'd realize how wrong you are.

Meh. Damien has the MA skills, Tim's the detective, Grayson has the acrobatics/athletics, and Jason's just angry.

I still stand by my point. The Robins break up the MA tier system.

Dick had a stalemate with Batman in the Nu52 so I think he's the top notch out of the Robins

Bruce holds back

That can be said of most moral characters. Not really a big deal.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Bruce holds back Every hero holds back.

By the time Tim got to be Red Robin pre-reboot, he was pretty good. Basically he was able to put his analytical mind to fighting.

Though on the flipside, Dick got increased when he became Batman/leading up to that.

Originally posted by Q99
By the time Tim got to be Red Robin pre-reboot, he was pretty good. Basically he was able to put his analytical mind to fighting.

Though on the flipside, Dick got increased when he became Batman/leading up to that.

Tim got the better of Dick when they last fought pre-boot, and that was when Dick was Batman.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Tim got the better of Dick when they last fought pre-boot, and that was when Dick was Batman.
Which comic?

Yeah, i'd like to see that fight.

Red robin 4 or 5 I think. I could be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure it ends with Tim's staff on Dick's windpipe.

The scans are in this thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/tim-drake-w-staff-vs-dick-grayson-unarmed-526308/

Thanks!

Yeah, that's a non-fight. Dick was trying to talk to him, Tim was the one fighting. Doesn't really count.

Originally posted by Q99
I do think around the top of the top tiers is when you start to see KK-esque stuff, it's just the degree increases.

Shiva, Cassandra, and similar can destroy stuff above their strength level. Shang Chi can take blows he shouldn't be able to take. Cass has judo-thrown bizarro (Linda) Supergirl.

The way I read it, KK's basically those techniques refined and improved over time. What used to be rare feats created only by rare users, became studyable moves, all pieced together to make them stronger and more reliable.





Also, he needs to not talk to you.

Ever.

Val's also internally consistant. Guy was established from day one as being able to fight Superboy on an even level.

Which is different from someone who spends their career at street level, becomes popular, and suddenly starts holding his own with guys that could level mountains and tank nukes.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Meh. Damien has the MA skills, Tim's the detective, Grayson has the acrobatics/athletics, and Jason's just angry.

I still stand by my point. The Robins break up the MA tier system.

And nobody cares about Stephanie.

Originally posted by Golgo13
The scans are in this thread.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/tim-drake-w-staff-vs-dick-grayson-unarmed-526308/ Yup, Dick > Tim

Thanks, PM.

Originally posted by cdtm
Val's also internally consistant. Guy was established from day one as being able to fight Superboy on an even level.

Which is different from someone who spends their career at street level, becomes popular, and suddenly starts holding his own with guys that could level mountains and tank nukes.
Thats one thing i've always found annoying.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yup, Dick > Tim

Thanks, PM.


Nah, Tim had him by the throat.

Dick's clearly the beta.

Clearly he wasnt holding back.

Originally posted by riv6672
Clearly he wasnt holding back.

Clearly. I'd go so far as to say he was bloodlusted. Look at the way he held Tim's arm. He either wanted blood or the D.

Dick's better than Bruce.

Better leader. Better acrobat.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Dick's better than Bruce.

Dick > Bruce > Jason >>>>>>>>> Damian > Alfred > The gardener > Tim

Wha-?