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Obi-Wan as of Revenge of the Sith.
Maul as of The Phantom Menace.

Maul is bloodlusted. Battle takes place in an abandoned Tokyo.

Kenobeh

The Force doesn't exist in Tokyo, so they have no Force enhancement. Maul is the only one of the two who has experience fighting an opponent without Force senses aiding him, has more experience fighting without Force augmentation, or while limiting it deliberately, and is generally in much better physical shape.

Take that, Kenobi fans.

In this hypothetical the Force exists in Tokyo, ILS.

Prove it

Kenobi wins again.

Kenobi

Kind of surprised.

I WANNA HEAR SOME MAUL ARGUMENTS!

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Kind of surprised.

I WANNA HEAR SOME MAUL ARGUMENTS!
Me too!

Kenobi wins, though.

Agreed.

Yep, siding Obi-Wan. Have no fear, though, ILS will probably side with Maul.

I have it either way, always will.

If this wasn't merely TPM Maul I'd be inclined to pick him. Bloodlusted CW Maul can take Kenobi imo, since I feel the reason Kenobi can keep getting one up on him is Maul's own hubris and personality problems.

TPM Maul is underrated as shit, lol.

Doesn't change that he's inferior to his CW counterpart, though. Kenobi's even more underrated, imo.

Maybe, but I just think that if he's lesser than CW Maul then he can't beat RotS Kenobi. Maybe you're underrating Obi.

Without Jason Fry's off-hand post towards Erkan regarding Maul's "more powerful" quote, any argument for him being a better duelist than TPM Maul would fall apart, as was always the case before. And even then, it wouldn't be the first time we've questioned creator commentary. The primary source material we've been given hasn't told us that CW Maul is a better duelist than when he was in TPM, and logically, he isn't.

I'm not underrating Obi-Wan, but Maul's placement as a duelist has always been set in stone based on his accolades and feats from TPM and prior.. not from stalemating TCW Kenobi briefly or fighting Mace Windu for one panel. Those feats and the others only reinforce where he always was.

I just don't see the edge RotS Kenobi has over TPM Maul. They're negligibly close as fighters.

Well, in Shadow Conspiracy Maul's own musings seemed to indicate that his increase in power enhanced his saber prowess. He was making a direct comparison between his new power boost and Sidious's power, claiming that despite his power boost, he still found himself in awe of Sidious' blade work. In that context, he was seemingly referring to his force aided physicality and precognition being better than before.

That said, I think TPM Maul is still close to his CW self, IMO. It's just that he focused his power more on his dueling abilities, so we didn't see much else from him. Dooku also indicated that Maul, before he was rediscovered by Savage, was a great deal more powerful than Ventress, who herself has some insane force feats, believing that Maul's power was more than sufficient to fill in the gap in power between himself and Sidious, something he evidently didn't believe from Ventress's power.

I'm gonna agree with ILS. I never bought the idea that TCW Maul > TPM Maul in Sabers or by any Significant margin overall.

TCW Maul was out of practice for 10+years, and never even got back into using his Saber Staff (the weapon he was most adept in using). TPM Maul was at the height of his Saber skill IMO. His Saber skill is praised as unparalleled by numerous sources.

He will however likely lose his Force advantage over this Kenobi, and might not be quite as strong (maybe).

I'd say it's a Split. But probably majority to Kenobi. Whilst if this was TCW Maul I'd also say it's a Split but give Maul the majority due to his TK. And that's honestly the extent of the difference I see between TPM Maul and TCW Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm gonna agree with ILS. I never bought the idea that TCW Maul > TPM Maul in Sabers or by any Significant margin overall.

TCW Maul was out of practice for 10+years, and never even got back into using his Saber Staff (the weapon he was most adept in using). TPM Maul was at the height of his Saber skill IMO. His Saber skill is praised as unparalleled by numerous sources.

He will however likely lose his Force advantage over this Kenobi, and might not be quite as strong (maybe).

I'd say it's a Split. But probably majority to Kenobi. Whilst if this was TCW Maul I'd also say it's a Split but give Maul the majority due to his TK. And that's honestly the extent of the difference I see between TPM Maul and TCW Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well, in Shadow Conspiracy Maul's own musings seemed to indicate that his increase in power enhanced his saber prowess. He was making a direct comparison between his new power boost and Sidious's power, claiming that despite his power boost, he still found himself in awe of Sidious' blade work. In that context, he was seemingly referring to his force aided physicality and precognition being better than before.

That said, I think TPM Maul is still close to his CW self, IMO. It's just that he focused his power more on his dueling abilities, so we didn't see much else from him. Dooku also indicated that Maul, before he was rediscovered by Savage, was a great deal more powerful than Ventress, who herself has some insane force feats, believing that Maul's power was more than sufficient to fill in the gap in power between himself and Sidious, something he evidently didn't believe from Ventress's power.

From skimming I basically agree on the responses. Just two things.

DP- Accounting for Legends, TPM Maul would still have a power edge over Obi-Wan. Levitating a "huge boulder" without even having to look or gesture, and nearly Force screaming a barracks to the ground at the age of 15, coincides nicely with the level of power we saw from him during TCW. TCW Maul is likely more powerful, but not by a huge degree IMO. While he did have a lot of time to brood in isolation and gain power by doing so, he also lost half of his potential, which would curb him to some degree as well. TPM Maul's usage of TK and the like is just more subtle or restrained.

Obi-Wan matched Anakin's force push. That's more impressive than lifting a "large boulder".

Originally posted by ares834
Obi-Wan matched Anakin's force push. That's more impressive than lifting a "large boulder". Is this accounting for Anakin being hindered?

And yeah, it would be more impressive than lifting a large boulder with effort. Maul displayed all but zero effort in doing so. And it was described as being "huge", not "large" .

Then there's the barracks feat, tbh.

Sure it is. And I really don't care if Maul did it easily or not. Anakin has force feats that are many times more impressive and they were done as a padawan.

I've got no clue on the barracks feat so I can't comment on that.

Hindered Anakin doesn't, however. And even relative to Anakin it's pretty impressive, because it suggests Maul could throw the thing like a B1 battle droid or wield it like a telekinetic weapon due to how easily he was exerting control over it. If you don't care about factoring effort into how impressive telekinetic feats are, that's your issue.



--Restraint

Are we sure that's literally?

Luceno usually is. He described a similar potential feat for Sidious in Darth Plagueis. I probably wouldn't use if it was, say, Stover's writing.

So a non-feat. And bringing "the barracks down around him" could mean just that, he collapses only the barrack around him.

And yes, Anakin has feats that blow lifting a "huge () boulder" out of the water.

http://i.imgur.com/V17zcZf.jpg

The ease that Maul did it is damn near irrelevant considering the difference in scale.

Beyond that we know from the databank that as the CW went on Anakin "grew vastly in power". So yes, Kenobi matching Anakin's push is a huge feat and better than anything TPM Maul has done.

Originally posted by ares834
So a non-feat. And bringing "the barracks down around him" could mean just that, he collapses only the barrack around him. Okay? Bringing down the best part of a military fortification when you're 15 is a pretty great feat. Not seeing your issue.
OCW, tbh. He doesn't have feats from any other medium that come close to that.
He did indeed. I now simply ask that you provide some good telekinectic feats for Canon Anakin, account for both the vastly quote and him being hindered while stalemating Obi-Wan, and build your case from there. Unless you're trying to claim that Canon Anakin is allowed to draw feats from OCW and then apply his vastly quote to them? Because that would be unfortunate.

So are we going with EU or Disney Canon here. Considering this is the EU forum I'm assuming the former in which case the OCW is indeed canon.

So Kenobi matched the force push of an Anakin who is "vastly" more powerful than the one who move that huge ass ship at a very considerable speed.

Obi-Wan got choked out and ragdolled by Maul in the CW though.

Both. What I'm saying is, taking a quote from StarWars.com that is referring to Canon Anakin, and applying it to a Legends source, isn't possible. Canon doesn't acknowledge Legends unless stated otherwise.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan got choked out and ragdolled by Maul in the CW though. Was about to come onto this, actually. I don't see TPM Maul as someone who CW Maul could ragdoll. It should be clear that Anakin's hindrance was why Kenobi matched his strength temporarily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan got choked out and ragdolled by Maul in the CW though.

CW Maul. Not TPM Maul.

Nor was that RotS Kenobi. He too could have improved.

Originally posted by ILS
Both. What I'm saying is, taking a quote from StarWars.com that is referring to Canon Anakin, and applying it to a Legends source, isn't possible. Canon doesn't acknowledge Legends unless stated otherwise.

Ah, did not realize that was solely from the new databank. My bad.

Regardless, Anakin had improved throughout the CW as evidenced by his duels with Dooku. And it's pretty much irrelevant to my point as well. The fact that Kenobi can match someone capable of that.

Yeah, I wouldn't use Obi Wan's force push stalemate as evidence for Kenobi's power, considering their TK feats outside that battle.

Anakin should have dominated Obi Wan as effortlessly as he did Ventress. Even Maul showed himself to be noticeably more powerful than Kenobi moreso than Anakin did during Kenobi's fight with Skywalker on Mustufar.

Originally posted by ILS


DP- Accounting for Legends, TPM Maul would still have a power edge over Obi-Wan. Levitating a "huge boulder" without even having to look or gesture, and nearly Force screaming a barracks to the ground at the age of 15, coincides nicely with the level of power we saw from him during TCW. TCW Maul is likely more powerful, but not by a huge degree IMO. While he did have a lot of time to brood in isolation and gain power by doing so, he also lost half of his potential, which would curb him to some degree as well. TPM Maul's usage of TK and the like is just more subtle or restrained.

Yep and he used Tk to smash through that door in "Shadow Hunter" to get to that Neimodian he was out to kill.

I completely agree. I don't think TCW Maul was "massively" more powerful than TPM Maul. In fact we're just told he's better but with absolutely no indication of how much better. The word "Vastly" more powerful is never used.

And I'm convinced the edge in "Saber Skills" would go to TPM Maul over TCW Maul.

I just think TCW/ROTS Kenobi vs Maul is a Split. With more wins for Obi-Wan if it's TPM Maul and more wins for Maul if it's TCW/SOD Maul.

Kenobi wins, easily. TPM Maul was very overconfident and knew from the jump that he could beat TPM Obi-Wan and Qui Gon. He would have his hands full with one of the greatest pure swordsman of his era.

Obi-Wan godstomps as always.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan got choked out and ragdolled by Maul in the CW though.


Sure, but Anakin got 'vastly more powerful' in between CWs Season 4 and ROTS, why would Kenobi not?

Anakin being the Chosen One would've progressed a lot, far faster than anyone else would.

Saying that, I do think Kenobi would have improved from TCW to RotS, it's just by how much that is debatable.

Kenobi's connection to the Force doesn't grow at the same rate as the Chosen One.

I doubt Kenobi went from being someone who Dooku and Maul could ragdoll, to a potential rival for an Anakin who is "vastly more powerful" than both his former self and the aforementioned ragdollers, in a matter of months.

I phrased that wrong. If Anakin grew 'vastly more powerful' why wouldn't Kenobi grow 'more powerful'?

Originally posted by ILS
I doubt Kenobi went from being someone who Dooku and Maul could ragdoll, to a potential rival for an Anakin who is "vastly more powerful" than both his former self and the aforementioned ragdollers, in a matter of months.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sure, but Anakin got 'vastly more powerful' in between CWs Season 4 and ROTS, why would Kenobi not?

Yeah I saw Kenobi's "Vast" Power Up in ROTS when he got ragdolled by Dooku.

I saw it when he matched Anakin.

Originally posted by ares834
I saw it when he matched Anakin. Hindered.. Anakin. Anakin was hindered. We're all clear on that, right? Hayden acknowledged that that was why Anakin underperformed against Kenobi.

Unless we all think Dooku could ragdoll Anakin as well.....

Or unless Kenobi grew "Vastly" more powerful in a few days... Hmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless we all think Dooku could ragdoll Anakin as well.....

If he caught him off guard, sure he could of. We've seen force users ragdoll and choke their superiors before.

Originally posted by ILS
Hindered.. Anakin. Anakin was hindered. We're all clear on that, right? Hayden acknowledged that that was why Anakin underperformed against Kenobi.

Sure. Doesn't mean he is fighting at half capacity or anything.

Originally posted by ares834
If he caught him off guard, sure he could of. We've seen force users ragdoll and choke their superiors before.


Then that just means Kenobi is particularly vulnerable to getting caught off guard with Force attacks. Whilst Maul and Dooku are consistent at catching him off guard with Force attacks.



Originally posted by ares834
Sure. Doesn't mean he is fighting at half capacity or anything.





ROTS Mustafa Vader should have at least been a match for TCW Anakin IMO.