Barsenthor vs. Cade Skywalker

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carthage
Battle takes place on neutral ground

Trocity
Cade

ILS
Cade wins.

Nephthys
Thor. Just better feats and a better fighter.

Col. Valerian
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thor. Just better feats and a better fighter.

SunRazer
I'd warrant that it's closer than anybody else that's posted in this thread thinks, but Cade probably wins.

ILS
I think it's close, but Cade seems like a better fighter. And his Skywalker potential could factor in, at least based on what I've read of him up to now.

SunRazer
Not in the same sense as Anakin, but Cade's the slightly more skilled swordsman in my opinion. The Consular probably wins a couple of rounds though, just to be fair.

Nephthys
Cade is the better swordsman, but Thor shouldn't be underestimated. She's clowned/blitzed Sith Lords and Rakatan Wardroids and she's stated to embody true skill even as a padawan, though it wasn't directly tied to sabers so she could just be immensely skilled in general.

In general though, Thor has some of the best TK feats of any Jedi and some of the best victories under her belt. She was able to continually defeat some of the best Jedi Masters in the order a few months after becoming a Jedi, while continually weakening after each fight. She beat Vivicar after she'd had to fight through a capital ship in a highly weakened condition, with Vivicar drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters to amplify his own. And given that he was already an ancient Sith Lord possessing a powerful Jedi Knight, that's a substantial level of power. And then she defeated the First Son, a Sith of incredible power who was able to shield the presence hundreds of Children all over the galaxy. And she beat him after fighting through a Guardian Hold (the most defensive fortress the Republic could create) and defeating 3 Children in a row, two at the same time.

So I see Thor as the ultimately better fighter. She's done better against worse odds in worse conditions than Cade has. Continually she's defeated powerful opponents with large handicaps and demonstrated incredible talent, power and a deep connection and understanding of the Force.

carthage
Not really seeing anywhere that Barsen really has an advantage in power tbh.

Col. Valerian
Right, so you're ignoring everything Neph just said?

carthage
That was all vague, Cade has better if not comparable telekinetic feats. As is usual with TOR characters, they usually have amps but suck as duelists and or are just hyped characters that lack showings.

He's thrown a ship, withstood a massive explosion that destroyed an entire lab, ragdolled Darth Talon who could smash an entire stone floor/rip memories from IK'S, and is capable of Shatterpoint/Dark transfer which Barsen has no response too. The Skill factor is also decidedly in his favor beating Nihl/Talon at once, beating Antares Draco, beating Vong warriors, and briefly holding his own against Darth Krayt put him solidly above Barsen in skill

They're pretty comparable in power, actually but Barsen has no response to shatterpoint or dark transfer and Cade's got better skill feats. He wins in a decent fight

Trocity
thumb up

SunRazer
I admit that Cade's about as powerful as the Consular, but why on earth do people insist on Shatterpoint/Dark Transfer being of use against opponents of similar power level? Cade needs to be substantially more powerful for those powers to actually matter (in an offensive context, at least - Dark Transfer can still be used for healing), not as powerful. Those two powers are utterly useless in this circumstance.

I'm awarding Cade the win based on his superior skill with a blade, but that's still a fairly marginal difference so I doubt he would win more than 6-7/10.

Trocity
Where is it stated you need to be substantially more powerful than your opponent for them to be affected by DT?

SunRazer
It's only happened in that circumstance - people have only been instakilled (or something similar) by Dark Transfer when they were substantially weaker than the user of the power. Ie. Cade and Krayt vs Talon and Cade, respectively.

And it's pretty logical that if you instantly kill somebody, you have to be substantially more powerful, lol.

Trocity
Maybe, I saw it more as an ability that once you got hit with it, it was hard to interrupt it. Cade was channeling it into Talon and torturing her, and Krayt had Cade pinned to the ground and was slamming him with it. I get it might be because they were both more powerful than their opponents, but I think it's more similar to being caught off guard - even the more powerful Force user may struggle when caught in a weaker Force user's choke, or being temporarily pinned, etc.

I just don't think it's completely useless is all. It may not be the most efficient technique since it requires hand to body contact, but still.

SunRazer
Both instances you mentioned involved one Force user being markedly superior to the other (Cade > Talon, and Krayt > Cade) which doesn't apply here.

That, and as you said, it requires bodily contact - why would Cade risk his limbs trying to touch the Consular just to try and pull it off? He's never even used Dark Transfer as an actual means of winning the fight, as I recall, only afterwards. Unless this is stated to be morals off, he wouldn't even attempt it.

Trocity
Originally posted by SunRazer
Both instances you mentioned involved one Force user being markedly superior to the other (Cade > Talon, and Krayt > Cade) which doesn't apply here.

Yes, I was just explaining the difference in the way I interpreted the technique when reading. I just didn't think that you would need to be far more powerful in order to cut someone, hone in on the wound, and then pour the force into it in malevolent fashion.

You may be right, the technique has just never been fully explained so I don't really understand it. *shrug*

SunRazer
Well, even if it wasn't "far more powerful" (an instantly-killing technique in of itself implies that this is a pre-requisite), it still requires you to be noticeably more powerful, and there is no noticeable power gap here.

ILS
Cade seemed to express that dark transfer only becomes more difficult in a healing sense when the injuries are worse (Krayt's compared to the other people he had healed). I imagine offensively it'd be different - since Krayt's body was in such terrible shape with his Vong disease, Cade would have an easier time blowing him apart from the inside. In fact, as long as there is an injury at all, I don't see how one can't use dark transfer offensively.

I don't see what it has to do with the power of his opponent.

Trocity
This was my thinking also.

Nephthys
Thor is a ranged fighter anyway.

Trocity
Cade's barriers are good enough to make it close quarters.

SunRazer
Even going by that route, he needs a meaningful injury first, and the only way he'd really do that is with his saber, and injuries with his saber would probably give him a win in of themselves. His TK won't be enough to injure the Consular since they're about equal in that regard.

And as I said, he really hasn't shown Dark Transfer mid-duel. Or anybody of the Barsen'thor's class, anyway.

ILS
Originally posted by SunRazer
Even going by that route, he needs a meaningful injury first, and the only way he'd really do that is with his saber, and injuries with his saber would probably give him a win in of themselves. His TK won't be enough to injure the Consular since they're about equal in that regard.

And as I said, he really hasn't shown Dark Transfer mid-duel. Or anybody of the Barsen'thor's class, anyway. I don't think he does, actually. He used it on Darth Talon because of an imperceptible wound - if you could even call it that - and he used it successfully on Shado Vao, who was in perfect health, and was fully capable of killing him with it were he so inclined. It's a combination of Dark Transfer and Shatterpoint which allows Cade to pour an overwhelming amount of Force energy into any small areas of a being that could be healed, and by pouring in more than he needs to, he rips them apart from the inside.

So, yes, if he got his hands on 'thor he most certainly could wipe her out with Dark Transfer. All he needs is physical combat. Given that he's the better fighter here, I'd say it's a possibility worth considering. Still a good fight, but Dark Transfer isn't to be underestimated.

There's a difference between "hasn't", and can't.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Trocity
Cade's barriers are good enough to make it close quarters.

Krayt was able to toss him around and he has weaker TK than Thor. Maybe his barriers are up to it, but she's a lot more skilled with the Force than him.

FreshestSlice
Cade. Better than Thor in just about everything.

S_W_LeGenD
Barsen'thor solidly.

ares834
Originally posted by carthage
That was all vague, Cade has better if not comparable telekinetic feats. As is usual with TOR characters, they usually have amps but suck as duelists and or are just hyped characters that lack showings.

He's thrown a ship, withstood a massive explosion that destroyed an entire lab, ragdolled Darth Talon who could smash an entire stone floor/rip memories from IK'S, and is capable of Shatterpoint/Dark transfer which Barsen has no response too. The Skill factor is also decidedly in his favor beating Nihl/Talon at once, beating Antares Draco, beating Vong warriors, and briefly holding his own against Darth Krayt put him solidly above Barsen in skill

They're pretty comparable in power, actually but Barsen has no response to shatterpoint or dark transfer and Cade's got better skill feats. He wins in a decent fight

thumb up

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt was able to toss him around and he has weaker TK than Thor. Maybe his barriers are up to it, but she's a lot more skilled with the Force than him. Eh, actually, I'd say Krayt TKing Cade in such a manner itself is better than 'thor's showings, given how powerful Cade is, as well as the fact he was always improving throughout Legacy.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
Eh, actually, I'd say Krayt TKing Cade in such a manner itself is better than 'thor's showings, given how powerful Cade is, as well as the fact he was always improving throughout Legacy.

Or it shows that Cade isn't always gonna be capable of creating a full force bubble capable of tanking a base explosion while in combat. And all of Thor's best TK feats were done in the first year of her career and in a weakened condition. Except for her smashing into a Rakatan Vault which I thinks above Cade's paygrade.

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or it shows that Cade isn't always gonna be capable of creating a full force bubble capable of tanking a base explosion while in combat. And all of Thor's best TK feats were done in the first year of her career and in a weakened condition. Except for her smashing into a Rakatan Vault which I thinks above Cade's paygrade. I wasn't saying he can create a bubble whenever he wants. I'm saying that he's powerful because of that feat, and others, and thus Krayt nonchalantly TKing him is a superb feat that I doubt 'thor could replicate.

I dunno, the vault feat seems comparable to Cade's lab feat in scope, without getting too mathematical.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Or it shows that Cade isn't always gonna be capable of creating a full force bubble capable of tanking a base explosion while in combat. And all of Thor's best TK feats were done in the first year of her career and in a weakened condition. Except for her smashing into a Rakatan Vault which I thinks above Cade's paygrade.
So Cade must have inferior Force defenses to be TK'd by Krayt? That's the only way that logic makes any sense.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
I wasn't saying he can create a bubble whenever he wants. I'm saying that he's powerful because of that feat, and others, and thus Krayt nonchalantly TKing him is a superb feat that I doubt 'thor could replicate.

I dunno, the vault feat seems comparable to Cade's lab feat in scope, without getting too mathematical.

And I'm just saying that Cade isn't an uber-tank with impenetrable shields. Even if his barriers are legit great, I'd still argue that Thor is much more skilled and focused on offensive TK and can get through them or around them. It's not just gonna be Cade tanking through everything then crushing her in melee.

I doubt it, that vault was supposed to be impenetrable whereas blowing up a lab is within normal capabilities. I'd also point to Thor tanking an explosion that disintegrated a blast door, while highly weakened and 2+ years before her prime and with enough power to then go on and fight through an entire capital ship and beat down Vivicar, as indicating she's got more raw power. But thats just me.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So Cade must have inferior Force defenses to be TK'd by Krayt? That's the only way that logic makes any sense.

Krayt doesn't have many good TK feats though. Outside of TK'ing Cade, Thor far outstrips him.

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
And mine is that Cade isn't an uber-tank with impenetrable shields. He doesn't need to be.
I find the idea that 'thor can take victory through telekinesis alone/primarily unlikely. The gap in their combat abilities seem larger than their Force power. What specifically is it about 'thor's offensive TK that allows them to overwhelm Cade in this scenario?
Define "was supposed to be impenetrable". And define "normal capabilities". What kind of weaponry are you suggesting couldn't destroy that door, but could replicate the explosion that wiped out the entire lab?

Tanking an explosion that destroyed one door is good, but pales in comparison to Cade's lab feat in scope, regardless of her being weakened and two years pre-prime.

If we want to talk powerscaling - after seven years of straight death stick addiction, which reduces one's connection to the Force, Cade's first usage of telekinesis since then was throwing a starfighter wreckage at Talon and sending her off into the horizon with it, which was done with moderate difficulty. After that he received re-training from the Jedi, training from Krayt, and probably some other sprucing up in the 20+ issues I need to read. His telekinesis would be considerably more potent end series, which easily contends with 'thor tanking a door-busting explosion with your noted circumstances.

So again, power is really a toss up for me, but Cade seems better with a lightsaber.

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt doesn't have many good TK feats though. Outside of TK'ing Cade, Thor far outstrips him. That's not how logic functions. Krayt TK'ing Cade in of itself is better than 'thor's showings.

Q99
Originally posted by ILS
Cade seemed to express that dark transfer only becomes more difficult in a healing sense when the injuries are worse (Krayt's compared to the other people he had healed). I imagine offensively it'd be different - since Krayt's body was in such terrible shape with his Vong disease, Cade would have an easier time blowing him apart from the inside. In fact, as long as there is an injury at all, I don't see how one can't use dark transfer offensively.


Heck, when Krayt used it on Cade to kill then revive him, I don't think Cade was wounded at all. Even an uninjured person has shatterpoints via which they can become wounded, wounds just make it all the easier.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
I don't think he does, actually. He used it on Darth Talon because of an imperceptible wound - if you could even call it that - and he used it successfully on Shado Vao, who was in perfect health, and was fully capable of killing him with it were he so inclined. It's a combination of Dark Transfer and Shatterpoint which allows Cade to pour an overwhelming amount of Force energy into any small areas of a being that could be healed, and by pouring in more than he needs to, he rips them apart from the inside.

So, yes, if he got his hands on 'thor he most certainly could wipe her out with Dark Transfer. All he needs is physical combat. Given that he's the better fighter here, I'd say it's a possibility worth considering. Still a good fight, but Dark Transfer isn't to be underestimated.

There's a difference between "hasn't", and can't.

Shatterpoint does allow its use on minor wounds, but the point I'm trying to get across is you usually don't detect Shatterpoints on people of your class - usually on fodder/people well below your general class. I mean, I can't even remember an instance in which somebody has detected a Shatterpoint in somebody of their level.

I know there's a difference, but that difference is generally only apparent in a morals-off encounter, not morals-on.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
He doesn't need to be.

Well bluh bluh.

Originally posted by ILS
I find the idea that 'thor can take victory through telekinesis alone/primarily unlikely. The gap in their combat abilities seem larger than their Force power. What specifically is it about 'thor's offensive TK that allows them to overwhelm Cade in this scenario?

The same thing that let her overwhelm her other opponents? The First Son was actually stronger than her in TK. She doesn't expressly need to overpower her opponents, she just outfight them. Her combat record is filled with her being highly weakened or outmatched in power yet still managing to pull it off. Highly weakened and tired she still manages to outfight an ancient Sith drawing on power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. What has Cade done that's better than that? She's simply the better Force user, in power as well as in skill and combat ability. And she has abilities other than just TK.

Originally posted by ILS
Define "was supposed to be impenetrable".

It's stated to be impenetrable.

Originally posted by ILS
And define "normal capabilities". What kind of weaponry are you suggesting couldn't destroy that door, but could replicate the explosion that wiped out the entire lab?

The..... explosive that destroyed the lab? If conventional explosives could blow through that door I doubt the vaults would be labelled impenetrable.

Originally posted by ILS
Tanking an explosion that destroyed one door is good, but pales in comparison to Cade's lab feat in scope, regardless of her being weakened and two years pre-prime.

I disagree immensely, particularly when accounting for what she does directly after that feat.

Originally posted by ILS
If we want to talk powerscaling - after seven years of straight death stick addiction, which reduces one's connection to the Force, Cade's first usage of telekinesis since then was throwing a starfighter wreckage at Talon and sending her off into the horizon with it, which was done with moderate difficulty. After that he received re-training from the Jedi, training from Krayt, and probably some other sprucing up in the 20+ issues I need to read. His telekinesis would be considerably more potent end series, which easily contends with 'thor tanking a door-busting explosion with your noted circumstances.

And while weakened and very inexperienced Thor tossed a similarly sized solid chunk of metal an equal distance casually. And then casually busted through a building-sized blast door with one hand. Powerscale that with 3 years of prodigal growth, unweakened.

Originally posted by ILS
So again, power is really a toss up for me, but Cade seems better with a lightsaber.

Whereas to me the Barsen'thor just seems a better fighter in general. She's had far better victories than Cade has. She's smarter, more skilled overall and imo the more powerful.

SunRazer
I think saying the Consular is "far" better than Cade is a pretty big stretch, but the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the idea of approximate equality in combat skill. Not necessarily sabers, per se, since we're not entirely sure how much of the Force was dedicated to the Consular's victories - the only confirmed blade victories are Nalen Raloch (he confirms that the Consular does some sort of feint in the fight) and the Elite Flesh Raider that got fodderized in one of the trailers.

At the same time, though, I'm also warming up to the notion of Cade's potential being a factor, though I'm not sure why.

Stigma
Originally posted by carthage
As is usual with TOR characters, they usually have amps but suck as duelists and or are just hyped characters that lack showings.
Ah. So true thumb up

SunRazer
It's not that they're poor duelists, they're just hyped incorrectly.

Ursumeles
Bump

NewGuy01
Cade every time, honestly.

MythLord
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Cade every time, honestly.

Ursumeles
I dunno, Neph's logi is very convincing :mmm:

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Good fight. Not sure.

Rockydonovang
Krayt was unable to put down Cade with his force powers, why would this be any different with the barsenthor?

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