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Seeing the new development of the DB franchise and new chars, where would you place the chars in a Tier List?

Tier 5 - Skyfather

High

Middle

Low

Tier 4 - Trans. Tier (Sub-Skyfather)

High

Middle

Low

Tier 3 - Herald

High

Middle

Low

Tier 2 - Meta

High

Middle

Low

Tier 1 - Street

High

Middle

Low

Place at least one char in each Tier if possible, you can try more. I am curious to see the general consens. ^^

Tier 5 - Skyfather

High

Middle

Low

Tier 4 - Trans. Tier (Sub-Skyfather)

High

Middle

Low

Future SSJX Goku merged with the Dragonballs

Tier 3 - Herald

High

SSJ4 Gogeta

Middle

Omega Shenron
SSJ4 Goku
Whis

Low

Beerus
SSJG Goku
SSJ3

Tier 2 - Meta

High

SSJ2

Middle

SSJ1
Frieza

Low

Piccolo DBZ

Tier 1 - Street

High

Yamcha DBZ

Middle

Roshi

Low

Chi Chi

No one? Ok I give it a try maybe you can give me some input.

You put Piccolo in low meta?

Originally posted by NemeBro
You put Piccolo in low meta?

I know, he is the best char and after his fusion he was maybe higher, dunno, it's hard to gauge imo, that's why i asked ^^.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I know, he is the best char and after his fusion he was maybe higher, dunno, it's hard to gauge imo, that's why i asked ^^. How exactly is it hard to gauge whether or not he is in Spiderman's tier?

People weaker than Piccolo can destroy planets.

Can Spiderman?

I would rate any planet destroyer as at least herald. At the same time, I would hesitate to put any DBZ character in Trans.

Yeah, no DBZ char is above high herald, much less Transcendant

Beerus apparently busted Two suns.

That should put him at the very top of High herald.

Originally posted by Placidity
I would rate any planet destroyer as at least herald. At the same time, I would hesitate to put any DBZ character in Trans. This seems odd.

Since most of you guys are feat-mongers: Pure/Kid Buu is the weakest character who actually insta-planet-busted on panel(sans core destruction or w/e)--and he did so with literally no effort at all. So even IF you assume it requires Pure Buu-level power to destroy a planet in DBZ(which is silly, given everything to the contrary), there are still characters who are several orders of magnitude more powerful than him. Examples:
-SSJ3 Goku(full power)
-SSJ1 Gotenks
-SSJ3 Gotenks
-Super Buu
-Mystic Gohan
-Buutenks
-Buuhan
-Vegetto
-SSJG Goku
-SSJGSSJ Goku/Vegeta
-Beerus
-Whis

(And that's not even factoring in the haxxness of GT characters/power levels.)


Suffice to say: if you believe the ability to destroy a planet makes one a herald, then at least some of the listed characters would literally have to be in the Trans-tier by proxy. Imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
This seems odd.


Suffice to say: if you believe the ability to destroy a planet makes one a herald, then at least some of the listed characters would literally have to be in the Trans-tier by proxy. Imo.

I had thought about that. That is why I said I was conflicted.

I am hesitant to put them in Trans because IMO it takes more than a strong energy attack to be in this tier (even though in my mind the level of attack is beyond most/all heralds). At the same time if I look at who is in the Trans tier from comics, I can't put Goku for example, next to Amazo or Superman 1 Million in the same tier.

I would say some may be above herald but definitely lower than Trans considering the existing characters actually in Trans.


Where do you think they stand?

None of them are Skyfathers. At least not Odin level Skyfathers.

The thing about DBZ is that they have herald level energy output, but physically they're little girls.

Always remember, forty tons is too heavy for base Goku.

Eh, that isn't the best feat to use. Look I agree that their energy output far exceeds their strength levels. They could easily destroy a planet with energy attacks, but not really via punching it Gladiator style.

On the other hand Goku by that point in the series still should of been strong enough to lift 40 tons with no trouble. On top of that I think it was more like 400 tons due to the higher levels of gravity. That doesn't make it much better, but you also have Akira Toriyama calling the scene stupid.

If the gravity was high enough to make it 400 tons, it would be called 400 tons, not 40.

The scene was stupid, but what physical feats does DBZ really have? The single best feat is Super Buu punching a blast through one side of the planet and out the other. Which is good, but it's not nearly up to par with a high herald like Superman benching the Earth for a student amount of time, or cutting a moon in half by flying by it for a post-crisis feat.

Originally posted by Placidity
I had thought about that. That is why I said I was conflicted.

I am hesitant to put them in Trans because IMO it takes more than a strong energy attack to be in this tier (even though in my mind the level of attack is beyond most/all heralds). At the same time if I look at who is in the Trans tier from comics, I can't put Goku for example, next to Amazo or Superman 1 Million in the same tier.

I would say some may be above herald but definitely lower than Trans considering the existing characters actually in Trans.


Where do you think they stand? In terms of sheer energy output, I see no reason why some of them wouldn't be Trans-level, tbh.

Where durability is concerned, guys like Beerus/Whis can outright tank planetary explosions at ground zero without even flinching--hell, Freeza survived the detonation of Namek when he was almost entirely drained of energy AND cut in half, so yeah.

Speed is meh. While DBZ doesn't have the amount of quantifiable speed feats we've seen in comics, I personally think the battle speed of some of the more powerful Z fighters would be sufficient to contend with most heralds.

Brute strength feats are where DBZ is lacking most. Comics take that category all day long.... But for what it's worth, there is this:
http://i.minus.com/iYoUBNx5GkQ7o.gif

srug

Originally posted by NemeBro
How exactly is it hard to gauge whether or not he is in Spiderman's tier?

People weaker than Piccolo can destroy planets.

Can Spiderman?

Energywise he is higher but physically? Well Spiderman beat a HH, take it for what it's worth.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
Beerus apparently busted Two suns.

That should put him at the very top of High herald.

Sometimes it is enough to damage the core of something to destroy it. Superboy destroyed Universes by flying through the core of their center, the earths.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yeah, no DBZ char is above high herald, much less Transcendant

What about Gokus after GT. I mean 100 years of training and the fusion with the DB. Trans or Skyfather seems legit in my eyes, benefit of the doubt of course.

Originally posted by Galan007
In terms of sheer energy output, I see no reason why some of them wouldn't be Trans-level, tbh.

Where durability is concerned, guys like Beerus/Whis can outright tank planetary explosions at ground zero without even flinching--hell, Freeza survived the detonation of Namek when he was almost entirely drained of energy AND cut in half, so yeah.

Speed is meh. While DBZ doesn't have the amount of quantifiable speed feats we've seen in comics, I personally think the battle speed of some of the more powerful Z fighters would be sufficient to contend with most heralds.

Brute strength feats are where DBZ is lacking most. Comics take that category all day long.... But for what it's worth, there is this:
http://i.minus.com/iYoUBNx5GkQ7o.gif

srug

Me neither but I can see Surfer for example, doing the things they did. Just my opinion.

But then again, Surfer has Trans+ feats too and can survive in the heart of the Sun. Other heralds tanked Supernova like explosions and other attacks.

Their speed is on par imo.

I also have the impression that the DB planets are rather small, not even Moon size, but this might be because of the artwork. Anyway, the best strength feat was Goku supporting and lifting, a bit, a part of a City, which is vastly below anything a Herald can do.

But then again, does a herald level being have to have a strength in that level or are all other abilities not sufficient.

Imo guys like Beerus, SSJ4 Goku etc are somewhere in the Herald tier. What makes it so hard to judge imo is the gap between them. For example, If I would put SSJ1 in the low Herald tier, SSJ2 would have to be a bit higher, maybe mid tier, but then we have still SSJ3 and 4 and beings stronger. So how can you place a being that is signigicantly more powerful in the same tier?

I see the powerlevels more like Manapools (or Ki-pool), sure they get sometimes a new level or ability but a DB fighter has his aura, a shield, that consumes mana, his attacks that are boosted by mana and require mana to be cast spells/blasts, his physical stats like speed that are boosted by mana. So the more powerful you are the more mana you have, the more mana you can use before you run out of it. Someone with a powerlevel with 200, who needs 50 for his attack, an attack that can be blocked by a let's say 50 shield, against someone with a 400 powerlevel, would be almost useless.

40 tons was an inconsistent feat. We saw Teen Goku flip a 116 ton King piccolo

Originally posted by NemeBro
If the gravity was high enough to make it 400 tons, it would be called 400 tons, not 40.

The scene was stupid, but what physical feats does DBZ really have? The single best feat is Super Buu punching a blast through one side of the planet and out the other. Which is good, but it's not nearly up to par with a high herald like Superman benching the Earth for a student amount of time, or cutting a moon in half by flying by it for a post-crisis feat.

Goku was shown moving huge boulders as a kid. Before the age of 15 he had surpassed(in every way) a dude who can do this:

dXk5fY8ub_w

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
I know, he is the best char and after his fusion he was maybe higher, dunno, it's hard to gauge imo, that's why i asked ^^.
Spider-man is low meta. Piccolo should be mid herald.

Originally posted by Astner
Spider-man is low meta. Piccolo should be mid herald.
Piccolo should be Abstract because he is the best char from DB.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Piccolo should be Abstract because he is the best char from DB.

False, Mustache Vegeta is the best character.

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/9993/27109993/pics/819508639.jpg

That mustache is powerful enough to kill everyone on the planet.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Tier 5 - Skyfather

High

Middle

Low

Tier 4 - Trans. Tier (Sub-Skyfather)

High

Middle

Low

Future SSJX Goku merged with the Dragonballs

Tier 3 - Herald

High

SSJ4 Gogeta

Middle

Omega Shenron
SSJ4 Goku
Whis

Low

Beerus
SSJG Goku
SSJ3

Tier 2 - Meta

High

SSJ2

Middle

SSJ1
Frieza

Low

Piccolo DBZ

Tier 1 - Street

High

Yamcha DBZ

Middle

Roshi

Low

Chi Chi

No one? Ok I give it a try maybe you can give me some input.

Roshi can blow up mountains and catch bullets with his hands. How is that street level?

I didn't even notice he had Roshi in mid street, lol.

****ing Chi Chi would punch Batman's head clean off his shoulders.

Why is Yamcha.high street?

Originally posted by random letters
Roshi can blow up mountains and catch bullets with his hands. How is that street level? *and blow up the moon.

Ok boiz,my "example" was supposed to persuade you to give me an opinion where you would place a char and start the discussion. So far so good. Where would you place Roshi, Yamcha and ChiChi?

low mid and high meta...maybe really low herald for yamcha. like barrel scum low

What Meta can blow up moons or do half the things Roshi can do?

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
low mid and high meta...maybe really low herald for yamcha. like barrel scum low

Good call.

Carver, show me a lifting feat of a DB char lifting a Universe, like Herc did, who is "just" meta level.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
show me a lifting feat of a DB char lifting a Universe, like Herc did, who is "just" meta level.
You mean when he held "the heavens" for Atlas? That's lifting the universe?

Also, a lot of herald-level characters have no super-strength whatsoever. But that doesn't stop them from being able to kill Hercules five times over before he even hits the ground in free fall.

Originally posted by Astner
You mean when he held "the heavens" for Atlas? That's lifting the universe?

Also, a lot of herald-level characters have no super-strength whatsoever. But that doesn't stop them from being able to kill Hercules five times over before he even hits the ground in free fall.

Indeed that was the representation of the burden Atlas had to lift, the Universe, even if you would argue with Mythology and say it is "only" the world. I still would like to see a DB char lift the Earth. SSJ4 Goku has problem supporting a part of a City.

Yes that is true and a meta like Spiderman beat a Herald like Firelord. Collateral Damage is not enough to be classified in a tier imo.

Lifting feats are all but inconsequential when we're dealing with characters whose blasts can casually destroy moons/planets/suns/solar systems. srsly

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Indeed that was the representation of the burden Atlas had to lift, the Universe, even if you would argue with Mythology and say it is "only" the world. I still would like to see a DB char lift the Earth. SSJ4 Goku has problem supporting a part of a City.

Yes that is true and a meta like Spiderman beat a Herald like Firelord. Collateral Damage is not enough to be classified in a tier imo.

Lol...Roshi was equal to a guy who threw a Pilar with ease across the freaking planet. He's the weakest of DBZ characters. I'll put every dollar I have on Roshi in a fight against Hercules. Look at Roshi fight against Goku.

Also, lol, so strength is the reason you put characters in the meta atgainstbiutnd Herald tier?

So, can we include characters from Dr. Slump(namely Arale) in this, given that she has appeared in DB/DBZ quite a few times..?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Yes that is true and a meta like Spiderman beat a Herald like Firelord. Collateral Damage is not enough to be classified in a tier imo.

Spider-man beating Firelord was a huge outlier. Same with Roshi blowing up the moon really.

The problem with comics vs DBZ comparisons is that all of a sudden only the very highest showings for comic characters are counted.

Btw, what would be the highest pl of SSJ4 Gogeta?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Dr. Slump > Dragonball if you ask me and yeah, physically she Is above any DB char, splitting the earth in half etc. So feel free. In the Dragon Ball: Bouken Special (1987), Toriyama was asked how a battle between Goku and Arale would go. His response: "If Goku and Arale fought, Arale would probably be stronger than Goku." Since this statement was made during the Piccolo Daimao-era, it puts Goku's PL at 260.

That said, the word "probably" implies that the difference between Goku and Arale was marginal. So if I had to guess, I'd say Arale's PL would have been ~300. For a point of reference: Freeza's PL at base=530,000(a difference of over 1,750x.)

Food for thought.



...But yeah, her strength feats are retardedly haxx.

What fts does Arale have?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Why should I trust you? And it was representative for Earth and or the Universe and as such heavy enough. Unquantifiable but still impressive. Herc is a Class 100. Which is more than any DB char I know of.

If Goku and Herc faught just phsically in a slug fest punch for punch, Herc would kill him, since he is stronger. Blasting power is in Gokus favor, that was never argued.

You wrote : "Also, a lot of herald-level characters have no super-strength whatsoever. But that doesn't stop them from being able to kill Hercules five times over before he even hits the ground in free fall."

I gave you the Spiderman vs Firelord answer.

You wrote: "
What does collateral damage have to do with Spider-man supposedly beating Firelord?"

We were talking about people beating others out of their class now. I gave you an example that Tiers are not always represenataive who wins. As for Collateral Damge, it is like strength not enough to give someone a place in a tier he might not deserve.



Yet those chars struggle to lift a City. If Gokus destroys the earth he kills himself. The durability against physical attacks of DB chars is by far lower than against energy attacks, thus I can imagine a superior physical foe beating them rather quick. Anyway. Place them in tiers, that will be more helpful, not only you but all of you, maybe we can find an consens.



You would also put Goku in the Abstract or Skyfather tier...



Dr. Slump > Dragonball if you ask me and yeah, physically she Is above any DB char, splitting the earth in half etc. So feel free.

Lol...stop trying to lowball DBZ all of the time. We get it, you don't like the characters.

Originally posted by Galan007
In the Dragon Ball: Bouken Special (1987), Toriyama was asked how a battle between Goku and Arale would go. His response: "If Goku and Arale fought, Arale would probably be stronger than Goku." Since this statement was made during the Piccolo Daimao-era, it puts Goku's PL at 260.

That said, the word "probably" implies that the difference between Goku and Arale was marginal. So if I had to guess, I'd say Arale's PL would have been ~300. For a point of reference: Freeza's PL at base=530,000(a difference of over 1,750x.)

Food for thought.



...But yeah, her strength feats are retardedly haxx.

Interesting Point tbh. Now Master Roshis PL would be around 180 when he destroyed the Moon. The Farmer, a normal human being, was stated to have a Power level of 5. So to destroy a Moon in the DB Universe, a being has to be as powerful as 36 Humans. Frieza had a PL of 530000, so in order to destroy a Planet in the DB universe one has to be as Powerful as 106000 Humans.

Maybe the Moons and Planets in the DB have different physical attributes.

Anyway, this opens a new perspective. How to judge the DB tiers better in a Comic world, which is less toonish. Since in Comics the most common way to gauge the power of heroes is physical strength we can use this to judge what PL Superhumans would have in the DB-Verse. Spiderman can lift 10 Tons IIRC, let's assume that the average Human can lift about 50 kg, that would mean that Spiderman is as powerful as 200 humans. Since Humans have a PL of 5 it would mean that Spiderman has a PL of 1000. Hulk lifted 150,000,000,000 Tons, that means he is as powerful as 3,000,000,000,000 Humans and has a PL of 15,000,000,000,000.

Food for thought.

Originally posted by carver9
What fts does Arale have? She once split the moon by throwing a rock at it:
http://i.imgur.com/78KQ7JIm.jpg

She has also cracked the earth in half with a casual punch:
http://i.imgur.com/lDJuTtbm.jpg


...And that is, quite literally, just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Interesting Point tbh. Now Master Roshis PL would be around 180 when he destroyed the Moon. The Farmer, a normal human being, was stated to have a Power level of 5. So to destroy a Moon in the DB Universe, a being has to be as powerful as 36 Humans. Frieza had a PL of 530000, so in order to destroy a Planet in the DB universe one has to be as Powerful as 106000 Humans.

Maybe the Moons and Planets in the DB have different physical attributes.

Anyway, this opens a new perspective. How to judge the DB tiers better in a Comic world, which is less toonish. Since in Comics the most common way to gauge the power of heroes is physical strength we can use this to judge what PL Superhumans would have in the DB-Verse. Spiderman can lift 10 Tons IIRC, let's assume that the average Human can lift about 50 kg, that would mean that Spiderman is as powerful as 200 humans. Since Humans have a PL of 5 it would mean that Spiderman has a PL of 1000. Hulk lifted 150,000,000,000 Tons, that means he is as powerful as 3,000,000,000,000 Humans and has a PL of 15,000,000,000,000.

Food for thought. Roshi destroyed the moon with a ki blast, though. Your average human, with a PL of 5, cannot generate ki blasts(which compound/increase a being's baseline power level several times over, btw.) So this entire line of shitty rationale is utterly moot.

If all you do is lowball DBZ characters, why'd you even make this thread, lol?

Originally posted by Galan007
Roshi destroyed the moon with a ki blast, though. Your average human, with a PL of 5, cannot generate ki blasts(which compound/increase a being's baseline power level several times over, btw.) So this entire line of shitty rationale is utterly moot.

If all you do is lowball DBZ characters, why'd you even make this thread, lol?

The line of thinking makes sense, if you like it or not. I do not lowball them as you can see in my examples, i just try to find a reasonable way to place the chars in the right tiers. A conversion of some comic heroes into PL seems a good way imo.

So what powerlevel did roshis Kamehameha had, what do you think?

One more thing. Goku lifted 40 Tons when he was training, after that training he had a base PL of 9000 IIRC, so during the training when he lifted 40 Tons he was at an estimated PL of 4000, which would make sense, as this wasn't his max. So this system could work both ways.

Galan, do you think Bills and Whis are in trans level, comparing then with comics heralds ?

Power level are bullshit

Why do people still use that shit

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
The line of thinking makes sense, if you like it or not. I do not lowball them as you can see in my examples, i just try to find a reasonable way to place the chars in the right tiers. A conversion of some comic heroes into PL seems a good way imo.

So what powerlevel did roshis Kamehameha had, what do you think?

One more thing. Goku lifted 40 Tons when he was training, after that training he had a base PL of 9000 IIRC, so during the training when he lifted 40 Tons he was at an estimated PL of 4000, which would make sense, as this wasn't his max. So this system could work both ways. Your 'logic' was flawed from the get-go. It relies on the fact that Roshi had a PL of 180 when he destroyed the moon, and an average human has a PL of 5. That's how you came up with your ridiculous "To destroy a Moon in the DB Universe, a being has to be as powerful as 36 Humans" theory.

However, random humans cannot control their ki at all--let alone generate high-end ki blasts... And Roshi busted the moon with a ki blast. Aside from that, because they are extremely concentrated singular points of energy, ki blasts are actually amplified WAY beyond their user's base power level. Example: Piccolo's base PL=408 against Raditz, yet his PL after charging the SBC=1,330. There are many other examples of an energy attack being FAR more powerful than the character firing it(Vegeta's "Final Flash" vs. Perfect Cell is another), but hopefully you get the picture.

Anywho, please don't try to defend/justify your previous argument. It just makes you look desperate and uninformed.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Galan, do you think Bills and Whis are in trans level, comparing then with comics heralds ? Where speed, stamina, durability, and energy output are concerned: most definitely.

Originally posted by Galan007
She once split the moon by throwing a rock at it:
http://i.imgur.com/78KQ7JIm.jpg

She has also cracked the earth in half with a casual punch:
http://i.imgur.com/lDJuTtbm.jpg


...And that is, quite literally, just the tip of the iceberg.

Did she show up in any of the post kid goku stories?

Nope. Some Arale Easter eggs were dropped in a few of the DBZ films, but that's it.

Arale does show up in chapter 81, 82 and 83, but that's it.

^ Yup, she appeared in Dragon Ball a few times. She never directly appeared in DBZ, though.

Galan, you dodged the question, what PL did Roshis Kamehameha had in your opinion at max?
And a Farmer having a PL of 5 is fact.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Galan, you dodged the question, what PL did Roshis Kamehameha had in your opinion at max?
And a Farmer having a PL of 5 is fact.

^power levels are bull shit

No DBZ character is herald level.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where speed, stamina, durability, and energy output are concerned: most definitely. Whis and Beerus are awfully slow and frail for trans characters, at least the ones I'm familiar with.

Superboy Prime for example has feats of speed, strength, and durability far in excess of any DBZ character.

Originally posted by Werewolf582
^power levels are bull shit

Yes, you are right, Power Levels and Scaling might be a dumb way to argue but it's the most common way among the fans and better than collateral damage. So, whatwould you suggest to place them in the right tier?

And yes Superboy Prime is above them.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Since in Comics the most common way to gauge the power of heroes is physical strength we can use this to judge what PL Superhumans would have in the DB-Verse. Spiderman can lift 10 Tons IIRC, let's assume that the average Human can lift about 50 kg, that would mean that Spiderman is as powerful as 200 humans. Since Humans have a PL of 5 it would mean that Spiderman has a PL of 1000. Hulk lifted 150,000,000,000 Tons, that means he is as powerful as 3,000,000,000,000 Humans and has a PL of 15,000,000,000,000.

Food for thought.

Professor X probably lifts less than the average man, Beneath Street Level I assume?

Strength is only one of many categories.

The ability to destroy a planet is significant (unless compared to the power of The Force).

Since when has Ki/strength/power/energy not been the same thing?

Ki powers the body, and digging deeper into the body's inner energy allows you to amp your body in every conceivable way, including mentally; as fighters in Dragon Ball become more receptive and keen as their power builds. Master Roshi explains in chapter 14 of Dragon Ball that one must tap into their ki to transcend their 'physical limits' and become more powerful. There is a reason why master Roshi gets bigger when he summons his ki. This is why all the fighters become more muscular when summoning ki.

I don't see why if Goku has the energy to destroy a mountain with a ki blast, he wouldn't be able to accomplish it with a well focused punch. The blast is just more convenient because you can unleash 'force' with physical properties, at a distance.

A ki blast is essentialy might from a distane, hence when characters are killed with ki blasts, they are annihilated and not incinerated, ki blasts aren't magical lasers. This fact should also be evident when characters drain their chi and are left weak and helpless. When their ki is drained, they lose their strength.

Now the God Ki is something else entirely. That is more than just the energy that gives life to the body, as it seems to give its weilders extra abilities. Bills for instance uses the power to destroy and disolve things effortlessly, almost like a Grim Reaper.The kais on the other hand use their ki to create a whole host of things, like clothes out of thin air.

Originally posted by Galan007
She once split the moon by throwing a rock at it:
http://i.imgur.com/78KQ7JIm.jpg

She has also cracked the earth in half with a casual punch:
http://i.imgur.com/lDJuTtbm.jpg


...And that is, quite literally, just the tip of the iceberg.

Insane.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Galan, you dodged the question, what PL did Roshis Kamehameha had in your opinion at max?
And a Farmer having a PL of 5 is fact. I didn't answer the question, because I have no way of knowing exactly how powerful his blast was. I merely mentioned the fact that charged ki blasts are almost always superior to the baseline PL of their user--by a wide margin. Surely Roshi's moon-buster was no exception.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Whis and Beerus are awfully slow and frail for trans characters, at least the ones I'm familiar with.

Superboy Prime for example has feats of speed, strength, and durability far in excess of any DBZ character. What makes you say they're frail?

Originally posted by Galan007


What makes you say they're frail?

Because Beerus was bruised by a handgun. 131

What durability feats do they have on par with Superboy Prime or Thanos (he's still trans, right?)?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because Beerus was bruised by a handgun. 131

What durability feats do they have on par with Superboy Prime or Thanos (he's still trans, right?)? Not that it would put them on par with Thanos/SBP(who are at the tip-top of the tier, mind you), but I was going to mention Beerus/Whis tanking a planet-busting detonation in the Dragon Ball Super! manga... But I don't know if that's still canon, given the events of the show. So yeah... Got nothin.

I'll just stick with trans-level energy output.

The Manga is still canon. The manga and the anime is both being done by Akira so I see no reason on it not being legit. Just different views of things.

Well no, two things cant be canon if they count different storys. As far i know, Akira dont do this manga (still i think the manga was far better than the episode).

Galan, some time ago you said Superman would win for sure against Goku. After the movies and DBZ Super, do you think Goku SSJGOD, Beerus and Whis can beat Superman and others Heralds ?

I'd say that Superman is still quantifiably stronger, faster(sans teleportation), and more durable than Goku.

Beerus and Whis are still hard to gauge, as we've yet to see their upper limits. Beerus can destroy suns and solar systems instantly when he gets upset, though, and Whis is much more powerful than him... Their energy output *should* be sufficient to harm/incapacitate Superman at the very least, imo. Goku should logically be able to as well, given that he is very close to Beerus' level now. /shrug

Ok,what i got from you all is a big "?" and that Japan > USA. I will be in Japan in August .

Maybe it's to early to find the right for chars like Whis and Beerus. We could start with DB GT though and work our way down.

Quick research
Gokus base PL against radditz 334, PL of his Kamehameha 934. Gokus Kamehameha > Roshis and piccolos radditz killer blast 1440. Vegetas planet buster blast 21000.

^ Those figures are wrong.


Goku's baseline PL=416:
http://i.imgur.com/2kukmEH.jpg

Goku's Kamehemeha=924+:
http://i.imgur.com/EysVh41.jpg


Piccolo's baseline PL=408:
http://i.imgur.com/VKRPiuU.jpg

Piccolo's SBC=1,330:
http://i.imgur.com/V5c4XJR.jpg


The PL of Vegeta's Galick Gun was never stated. However, Vegeta's baseline PL=18,000 during the Saiyan saga:
http://i.imgur.com/5DTioW7.jpg

Wasn't Kaio Kenx3 Goku 24,000 pl? Not bad matching his Kamehameha, at such a lower pl.

Actually, thinking about it, wasn't the ability to raise and lower power levels considered fairly unique back then?

Vegeta claimed pl raising and lowering was a trick he learned on Earth, to everyones surprise. And Radditz sure seemed surprised Goku and Piccolo kept amping attacks way past their base pl. So, doesn't that mean Vegeta's Galic Gun shouldn't have been any stronger then his base pl, given the lack of power raising ability?

If so, that would make matching a much stronger Kamehameha something of a plot hole.

^ Goku was using a KKx3 Kamehameha when he matched Vegeta's Galick Gun. So even if we just assume the PL of Goku's Kamehameha was the same as his baseline PL, it still means the Galick Gun's PL was at least 24,000.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd say that Superman is still quantifiably stronger, faster(sans teleportation), and more durable than Goku.

Beerus and Whis are still hard to gauge, as we've yet to see their upper limits. Beerus can destroy suns and solar systems instantly when he gets upset, though, and Whis is much more powerful than him... Their energy output *should* be sufficient to harm/incapacitate Superman at the very least, imo. Goku should logically be able to as well, given that he is very close to Beerus' level now. /shrug

Faster i agree, stronger probably, durable not sure.

Cant we scale the enery output with durability ? I mean, we never got the idea in DBZ that their energy output far exceed the durability. When someone is stronger, this one is able to tank everything (only in some few cases like very charged attacks).

Like, SSJGod Goku could take all of Majin Buu attacks, wich is at least planetary level +. Do you think Superman could take all of it ?

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Those figures are wrong.


Goku's baseline PL=416:
http://i.imgur.com/2kukmEH.jpg

Goku's Kamehemeha=924+:
http://i.imgur.com/EysVh41.jpg


Piccolo's baseline PL=408:
http://i.imgur.com/VKRPiuU.jpg

Piccolo's SBC=1,330:
http://i.imgur.com/V5c4XJR.jpg


The PL of Vegeta's Galick Gun was never stated. However, Vegeta's baseline PL=18,000 during the Saiyan saga:
http://i.imgur.com/5DTioW7.jpg

The difference is marginal.

This just means that Roshis Moonbuster was around 380 - 600. Which makes it easier for me to figure out the PL of comic heroes and the Tier of the DB Chars.

I think the Roshi attack was far stronger than 120ish power level. Because in the page, for a panel, we tough he killed the Ozaru - may be a indication that the attack could do that. It is not much but...

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
I think the Roshi attack was far stronger than 120ish power level. Because in the page, for a panel, we tough he killed the Ozaru - may be a indication that the attack could do that. It is not much but...

Yeah that's why I said 380-600. Not as powerful as Gokus when he faced Radditz but close enough.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Faster i agree, stronger probably, durable not sure.

Cant we scale the enery output with durability ? I mean, we never got the idea in DBZ that their energy output far exceed the durability. When someone is stronger, this one is able to tank everything (only in some few cases like very charged attacks).

Like, SSJGod Goku could take all of Majin Buu attacks, wich is at least planetary level +. Do you think Superman could take all of it ?

This.

Roshi moon buster wouldn't tickle someone like Raditz. Piccolo had to charge to the max to damage him. Saiyan Saga Vegeta planetary attack couldn't budge Super Saiyan Goku. This goes on and on. Heralds on average can't withstand power like that, especially at the point of brushing it off.

Goku combat speed is greater as well. Hell, their flight speed might be greater...I know for a fact that their combat speed is consistently better though. Anything over super Saiyan imo is a stomp.

Originally posted by carver9
This.

Roshi moon buster wouldn't tickle someone like Raditz. Piccolo had to charge to the max to damage him. Saiyan Saga Vegeta planetary attack couldn't budge Super Saiyan Goku. This goes on and on. Heralds on average can't withstand power like that, especially at the point of brushing it off.

Goku combat speed is greater as well. Hell, their flight speed might be greater...I know for a fact that their combat speed is consistently better though. Anything over super Saiyan imo is a stomp.

http://coolphotocomments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/piccolo-facepalm-photo-comment.jpg

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yeah that's why I said 380-600. Not as powerful as Gokus when he faced Radditz but close enough. A PL of 380-600 wouldn't be close to Goku's Kamehameha(PL=924) at all... Nor would it be remotely enough to have injured(much less killed) Oozaru Goku, whose PL=1,800(which is > Raditz, btw.)

Originally posted by carver9

Hell, their flight speed might be greater...

lol

This is worst than Abhi talking about Superman.

Originally posted by Galan007
A PL of 380-600 wouldn't be close to Goku's Kamehameha(PL=924) at all... Nor would it be remotely enough to have injured(much less killed) Oozaru Goku, whose PL=1,800(which is > Raditz, btw.)

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
http://coolphotocomments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/piccolo-facepalm-photo-comment.jpg

Physical strength of DB characters is always awfully underrated.

Originally posted by carver9
This.

Roshi moon buster wouldn't tickle someone like Raditz. Piccolo had to charge to the max to damage him. Saiyan Saga Vegeta planetary attack couldn't budge Super Saiyan Goku. This goes on and on.

This is obvious.
Piccolo's casual moon-buster was > Roshi's Kamehameha, yet we have this:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111223595/4482758-5943516243-24586.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4769/016jtu.jpg

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
lol

This is worst than Abhi talking about Superman.

Thats why I said 'might'. I'm basing this judgment off of speed boost vs power level. The reason I said might is, I don't have any proof, so i'm leaving it at that. Gohan did out race his own blast though which is an insane ft imo and that was kid Gohan. You have to remember, the blast didn't become slower with more power, it becomes faster, faster than the weaker opponents can see.