Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

They are each trying to muck with eachother at the atomic level. Who would win?

This is peak Molecule Man (postretcon) and peak Sentry (whichever incarnation is the most powerful). They are both bloodlusted.

sentry defeating molecule man is the dumbest shit ive ever seen. like worse than surfer getting beat by a mexican with a hammer, or batman wetting himself. post retcon molecule man is trans multiversal. sentry loses 10/10. sentry doesnt even have the feats to contend with molecule man in this area of expertise let alone beat him

Agreed.

Additionally, this bio confirms that Owen was in a weakened mental state when he confronted Sentry, therefore was operating at a sub-standard level:
http://i.imgur.com/LfMc2Zk.png
"When he's up, he is nigh-omnipotent and able to challenge the likes of the Beyonder. When he's down, he's powerful, but can be overcome by the likes of the Sentry."

And even then, Sentry waited until Owen was distracted before attacking him:
http://i.imgur.com/opJQVjG.png
"While he was side-tracked, the Sentry reconstituted himself and played Reece at his own game, manipulating molecules and controlling matter."


So yeah, peak Owen stomps w/o much effort.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed.

Additionally, this bio confirms that Owen was in a weakened mental state when he confronted Sentry, therefore was operating at a sub-standard level:
http://i.imgur.com/LfMc2Zk.png
"When he's up, he is nigh-omnipotent and able to challenge the likes of the Beyonder. When he's down, he's powerful, but can be overcome by the likes of the Sentry."

And even then, Sentry waited until Owen was distracted before attacking him:
http://i.imgur.com/opJQVjG.png
"While he was side-tracked, the Sentry reconstituted himself and played Reece at his own game, manipulating molecules and controlling matter."


So yeah, peak Owen stomps w/o much effort.

Where u get those from

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed.

Additionally, this bio confirms that Owen was in a weakened mental state when he confronted Sentry, therefore was operating at a sub-standard level:
http://i.imgur.com/LfMc2Zk.png
"When he's up, he is nigh-omnipotent and able to challenge the likes of the Beyonder. When he's down, he's powerful, but can be overcome by the likes of the Sentry."

And even then, Sentry waited until Owen was distracted before attacking him:
http://i.imgur.com/opJQVjG.png
"While he was side-tracked, the Sentry reconstituted himself and played Reece at his own game, manipulating molecules and controlling matter."


So yeah, peak Owen stomps w/o much effort.

Agreed Owen stomps with ease, but opinionated biographies posted as facts to defend the case is a poor example.

Originally posted by tkitna
Agreed Owen stomps with ease, but opinionated biographies posted as facts to defend the case is a poor example.

That's what i was thinking

Originally posted by tkitna
Agreed Owen stomps with ease, but opinionated biographies posted as facts to defend the case is a poor example. The bios are stating facts from the story, not giving opinions. srsly

And all the bios state is what most already knew: that Owen's power was neutered when Sentry beat him, because he was in an unstable mental state... Which is an opinion you seem to share anyway.

Poor example, though? Lol.

Originally posted by Galan007
The bios are stating facts from the story, not giving opinions. srsly



So those are on panel quotes from a character during the battle or are those quotes from the person writing the biographies?

Did they retell on-panel happenings inaccurately?

Owen stomps,way ot of bob's league

wtf. this is spite.

Originally posted by Galan007
Did they retell on-panel happenings inaccurately?


Well I dont remember anybody during the storyline flat out saying Owen was having a bad day and thats the only reason Sentry beat him, but its been awhile since i've read it. I believe the writer of the biographies and all of us are assuming something was wrong with Owen because of his past feats (me included), but nobody wants to assume that maybe Bob really is just that powerful with abilities he doesnt or hasent displayed up to that point. It works both ways.

In hindsight, I believe Owen was not at his peak mental capabilities during the fight. As a matter of fact, the only character I can think of that has a severe mental issue like that would be,,,,,the Sentry. (Oh crap)

Yea they're both similar characters in the mental dept.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Avengers_216-18.jpg

Bendis told me that Humans are like Krytonite to MM.

And MM - Molecular Man = MM - Martian Manhunter. Coincidence? I think not!

Sentry stomps. Already happened, damn the excuses. Sentry is FAR more mentally unstable than MM.

Originally posted by tkitna
Well I dont remember anybody during the storyline flat out saying Owen was having a bad day and thats the only reason Sentry beat him, but its been awhile since i've read it. I believe the writer of the biographies and all of us are assuming something was wrong with Owen because of his past feats (me included), but nobody wants to assume that maybe Bob really is just that powerful with abilities he doesnt or hasent displayed up to that point. It works both ways.

In hindsight, I believe Owen was not at his peak mental capabilities during the fight. As a matter of fact, the only character I can think of that has a severe mental issue like that would be,,,,,the Sentry. (Oh crap) Owen was glaringly unstable during that series. Someone who is stable doesn't manifest his split personalities as tangible heroes/villains, and have them accompany him everywhere. That said, it is a preexisting canon fact that Owen's abilities fluctuate in accordance with his mental stability.

So again: the bios stated facts, not opinions... Facts that you seem to agree with, btw, so I don't know why you're still arguing with me..?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Sentry stomps. Already happened, damn the excuses. Sentry is FAR more mentally unstable than MM.

He doesn't stomp. This is why Sentry fans, and thereby Sentry get a bad rep.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
He doesn't stomp. This is why Sentry fans, and thereby Sentry get a bad rep.

Okay, he wins. It happened in comics. And the reason Sentry gets a bad rap is because he's a poorly thought out character who continues to change according to the story.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Okay, he wins. It happened in comics.

And that's disregarding the context of how Owen was mentally. Owen suffered much in the same way Sentry did. He wasn't depowered (as Brevoort has confirmed that it was a regular Molecule Man). But he was weakened by his mental state.

Much like the Sentry is when he is mentally unstable he has a block on his full power and he's afraid to use it. MM isn't afraid I would say but he just lacks the comprehension to use it when he's unstable.

This doesn't mean what Sentry did was not impressive. He still did beat Owen at his own game. But I wouldn't say it was a Trans Multiversal Owen that he defeated.

I wouldn't hesitate at all to say Owen was easily in the Trans Tier during the fight.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
And that's disregarding the context of how Owen was mentally. Owen suffered much in the same way Sentry did. He wasn't depowered (as Brevoort has confirmed that it was a regular Molecule Man). But he was weakened by his mental state.

Much like the Sentry is when he is mentally unstable he has a block on his full power and he's afraid to use it. MM isn't afraid I would say but he just lacks the comprehension to use it when he's unstable.

This doesn't mean what Sentry did was not impressive. He still did beat Owen at his own game. But I wouldn't say it was a Trans Multiversal Owen that he defeated.

I wouldn't hesitate at all to say Owen was easily in the Trans Tier during the fight.

I don't think the author tried to hard to make a weakened mental state obvious. Just screams of an excuse, and I mean for ANY character. A strong mind helps you in a fight, correct? Hell, don't give the Superman fans another excuse.

Weak mindset or not, Owen is the master of his power set. Sentry was less than a neophyte, he didn't even know how he was doing the stuff he did. Owen should have DOMINATED him, and he lost. What happens when Sentry gains just a little experience?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I don't think the author tried to hard to make a weakened mental state obvious. Just screams of an excuse, and I mean for ANY character. A strong mind helps you in a fight, correct? Hell, don't give the Superman fans another excuse.


Some things aren't always specified or directly hinted at in comics. In SIEGE we know that Thor only was able to kill Sentry because Robert wanted to die. Bendis then later said that he didn't want to include a line where Spider-Man says.

"Damn - If Sentry didn't want to die we wouldn't have killed him."

We have many hints that Molecule Man wasn't fully right in the head at that time. He had created images of people such as the Beyonder, Dormammu and Mephisto who were telling him what to do and how to do things. You can't always have a direct hint in the comic that something is true or not. The author will instead leave little nuggets of information because if he has to add a big hint then it feels forced and breaks immersion.


Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Weak mindset or not, Owen is the master of his power set. Sentry was less than a neophyte, he didn't even know how he was doing the stuff he did. Owen should have DOMINATED him, and he lost. What happens when Sentry gains just a little experience?

If Owen is unstable thereby a bit weakened then no matter if he is using all that he can at the time he still wont be ale to make it count. I still think that feat is a very good one for Sentry, Despite the fact that Molecule Man was weakened nobody can deny Owen still ha a degree of control over his molecules and was still extremely dangerous. And he presumably was trying to resist having his molecules being controlled.

Going on your example about him being experienced and stuff. Sentry we know has the power in him to defeat the Void when he is stable. Able to emit energy that can destroy entire worlds while holding back. Yet when he fights Hulk during the WWH story line he can just about manage a stalemate. While Sentry is naturally extremely powerful if he can't control his power or he's weakened he just wont be able to reach the upper echelons of his power.

Sentry may have been new to this whole Molecular Manipulation game. But him being able to do what he did could be more testament to his raw power when it comes to that. He just has an extreme level of power with his molecules which happened to help when fighting Molecule Man. Sentry seemed to have control over his powers in Uncanny Avengers if you wanted to have a look.

It was a great feat for Sentry, because even when he's unstable, Owen is still extremely powerful... He's just not the nigh-omnipotent/multiversal powerhouse we've seen when he's stable, is all.

*edit
Although I suppose the "multiversal" thing can now be scratched off the list. According to Hickman's retcon, any one version of Owen is only a universal force these days. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
It was a great feat for Sentry, because even when he's unstable, Owen is still extremely powerful... He's just not the nigh-omnipotent/multiversal powerhouse we've seen when he's stable, is all.

*edit
Although I suppose the "multiversal" thing can now be scratched off the list. According to Hickman's retcon, any one version of Owen is only a universal force these days. /shrug

I agree

MM would absolutely slaughter him. Just go back and read the kind of crap MM was doing when he fought the Beyonder. At his peak he is far beyond Sentry.

Especially since neither before nor after his fight with MM did he ever do anything on the scale of what MM did.

Hell, wasn't MM having some trouble with Wolverine's f*cking son? Or am I remembering wrong?

Originally posted by Surtur
MM would absolutely slaughter him. Just go back and read the kind of crap MM was doing when he fought the Beyonder. At his peak he is far beyond Sentry.

Especially since neither before nor after his fight with MM did he ever do anything on the scale of what MM did.

Hell, wasn't MM having some trouble with Wolverine's f*cking son? Or am I remembering wrong?





Nope... A full power unstable SENTRY has too many options. SENTRY wins 8/10

Originally posted by Galan007
The bios are stating facts from the story, not giving opinions. srsly

And all the bios state is what most already knew: that Owen's power was neutered when Sentry beat him, because he was in an unstable mental state... Which is an opinion you seem to share anyway.

Poor example, though? Lol.

I have ALL marvel handbooks and your source material don't looks official at all.

Originally posted by Galan007

Additionally, this bio confirms that Owen was in a weakened mental state when he confronted Sentry, therefore was operating at a sub-standard level:
http://i.imgur.com/LfMc2Zk.png
"When he's up, he is nigh-omnipotent and able to challenge the likes of the Beyonder. When he's down, he's powerful, but can be overcome by the likes of the Sentry."

And even then, Sentry waited until Owen was distracted before attacking him:
http://i.imgur.com/opJQVjG.png
"While he was side-tracked, the Sentry reconstituted himself and played Reece at his own game, manipulating molecules and controlling matter."

So yeah, peak Owen stomps w/o much effort.
So .. we were always right! Although I always knew since that's what the story established.

Remember us and Opr proving this point for 20+ pages some time ago? 20+ pages due to two special trolls.
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet

I don't think the author tried to hard to make a weakened mental state obvious.
... credits to Galan, Operator, Kurb, and others including myself for proving this on panel fact.

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/19816595_Owen_limited1.jpg

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/19816597_Owen_limted2.jpg

In the first on panel truth, Owen literally gauges the scale he controls by using a reference:

"I control the molecules of the world, well, the ones around me."

Translation for the laymen: I can't control molecules on a global scale! ... only molecules around me.
I mean, Norman had come into "his world" (close enough to him) to be affected by Owen.
The same detail applies to all the Avengers he owned. All at close range.

Second scan: Bendis again, tells us basically the same shit via another character named Victoria Hand.

--------------------------------------------------------

While Sentry has definitely developed an upgrade,
Sentry still won via a stipulation cause when/while Owen was focused on him Sentry was getting owned.

That and the fact that Owen, wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
these "friends" who were an image of his sub-conscious.

http://s5d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/23515230_MM21.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------

Anywho, if anyone is interested in further "on panel" details concerning Owen/Dark Avengers ...

... just about everyone that participated in this 20+ page thread agreed with Mr Master/Galan/Opr and so forth:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586506&pagenumber=8

Well, they didn't exactly agree with just "us," but with the On Panel supported factual truth presented by "us."
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet

Owen should have DOMINATED him, and he lost.
Owen (although severely weakened) did "dominate" him, until Owen was distracted by a nuke. (pis)

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed.

Additionally, this bio confirms that Owen was in a weakened mental state when he confronted Sentry, therefore was operating at a sub-standard level:
http://i.imgur.com/LfMc2Zk.png
"When he's up, he is nigh-omnipotent and able to challenge the likes of the Beyonder. When he's down, he's powerful, but can be overcome by the likes of the Sentry."

And even then, Sentry waited until Owen was distracted before attacking him:
http://i.imgur.com/opJQVjG.png
"While he was side-tracked, the Sentry reconstituted himself and played Reece at his own game, manipulating molecules and controlling matter."


So yeah, peak Owen stomps w/o much effort. From what comics are those scans from?

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I have ALL marvel handbooks Apparently not.

Originally posted by Galan007
Apparently not.

The next Marvel Hanbook will be up in 20 days.

You obviously don't use an official source.

You're right. I typed up those pages myself, and Photoshopped-in pics of Owen, with my mad editing skills. Lol, people like you make me laugh.

Have a good day.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're right. I typed up those pages myself, and Photoshopped-in pics of Owen, with my mad editing skills. Lol, people like you make me laugh.

The last Marvel Handbook is "Avengers Now !" and the next marvel handbook haven't been edited now so I would to know your source because it's obviously not an official source.

I didn't say that you did it.

I said that someone did it and that's not an official source, and as Marvel didn't do it it's not usable in any ways.

But please prove me wrong, I'm waiting.

This guy obviously post something wrong and none of you ask him where he got the info, nor whom did it ?

Shame on you guys.

That the basics when you try to collect some reliable information...

Originally posted by RealityWarper
This guy obviously post something wrong and none of you ask him where he got the info, nor whom did it ?

Shame on you guys.

That the basics when you try to collect some reliable information...

I guess the onus is on you, a relatively new poster, to prove that he's wrong.

I mean, I can say he's wrong too. But I would need to prove it.

Galan's posted a scan. Said it's from a hand book.

You've said it's not. So prove it. Post some proof of your own.

Accusations and mudslinging isn't proof.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I guess the onus is on you, a relatively new poster, to prove that he's wrong.

I mean, I can say he's wrong too. But I would need to prove it.

Galan's posted a scan. Said it's from a hand book.

You've said it's not. So prove it. Post some proof of your own.

Accusations and mudslinging isn't proof.

I already gave the informations needed.

The last Marvel Handbook is "Avengers NOW !" the next will be up the 27 th july.

So he obviously don't use an official source.

Is Google too complicated for you ?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/23992/4669911-sans-titre-1.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I guess the onus is on you, a relatively new poster, to prove that he's wrong.

I mean, I can say he's wrong too. But I would need to prove it.

Galan's posted a scan. Said it's from a hand book.

You've said it's not. So prove it. Post some proof of your own.

Accusations and mudslinging isn't proof. Truth be told, I don't remember where I got that scan from(I posted it here a while ago, but can't recall the thread.) I know it's from a Marvel-authorized book of some sort, but that's about it. /shrug

It's funny to see the hatred this guy has for me, though. He's acting like those bios totally contradict what happened on panel(they obviously do not), and I posted them as a means to trick the membership... And then when I don't promptly respond to his accusations, he starts flaming.

Originally posted by Tony Stark


Nope... A full power unstable SENTRY has too many options. SENTRY wins 8/10

I will play along: feats for Sentry that compare to Molecule Man's best feats?

Just to note: Molecule Man and Beyonder were on the verge of causing multiversal destruction due to their fight.

I already know Sentry has zero feats on this level, but I'm quite curious as to what feats you are going to try to interpret as being comparable to MM's best stuff.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
I already gave the informations needed.

The last Marvel Handbook is "Avengers NOW !" the next will be up the 27 th july.

So he obviously don't use an official source.

Is Google too complicated for you ?

And if I said my copy of Avengers Now has that bio in there, what would you do?

Impasse.

Is debating too difficult for you?

Originally posted by Galan007
Truth be told, I don't remember where I got that scan from(I posted it here a while ago, but can't recall the thread.) I know it's from a Marvel-authorized book, but that's about it. /shrug

It's funny to see the hatred this guy has for me, though. He's acting like those bios totally contradict what happened on panel(they obviously do not), and I posted them as a means to trick the membership... And then when I don't promptly respond to his accusations, he starts flaming.


1) So I as said you don't know what your sources are. The Marvel Handbooks are written by Mike O'Sullivan, Jeff Christiansen and their team.

2) The hatred ? Not at all. I don't know you.

3) They obviously contradict what happened on panel... Molecule Man wasn't depowered / weakened in the slightest. Only his mental blocks related to his abilities can stop him to use his power at his best.

4) I'm not flaming. I'm just pointing out how fast you run on some informations without checking if your source is good or not.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And if I said my copy of Avengers Now has that bio in there, what would you do?

Impasse.

Is debating too difficult for you?

Impasse ?

Man... I have ALL BIOS and I have read everything that I need about the topic Sentry Vs Molecule Man so if you say that you have that bio in your copy of "Avengers NOW !" you are just lying a bit.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Impasse ?

Man... I have ALL BIOS and I have read everything that I need about the topic Sentry Vs Molecule Man so if you say that you have that bio in your copy of "Avengers NOW !" you are just lying a bit.

Then prove it. I can also say that you're lying.

I have twice as many bios as exist. And have read them no less than five times each.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Only his mental blocks related to his abilities can stop him to use his power at his best.

I'm not flaming. I'm just pointing out how fast you run on some informations without checking if your source is good or not. Which is EXACTLY what the bio says... Which was EXACTLY the case in the story itself. Did you even read it, lol?

You're definitely flaming. You're clearly upset. Calm down.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then prove it. I can also say that you're lying.

I have twice as many bios as exist. And have read them no less than five times each.

I'm not the one whom have to prove that my source is right as I'm not the one whom posted this.

By the way, a simple google search and maybe checking the marvel previews could help you to see what have been eidted as Marvel Handbooks until now.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which is EXACTLY what the bio says... Which was EXACTLY the case in the story itself. Did you even read it, lol?

You're definitely flaming. You're clearly upset. Calm down.

You are mixing mental state and mental blocks.

That's two different things.

Guys it really is a moot point, Sentry can't win either way.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Owen (although severely weakened) did "dominate" him, until Owen was distracted by a nuke. (pis)

First off, I realize Owen would own Sentry in every aspect, so that's a nonissue here (sorry for badgering you about it Galan), but I have just a few questions or thoughts.

1. How do characters give themselves mental blocks? Wouldn't you think the first sign of despair would tear them down? Just always thought that was stupid.

2. Yes, Owen was owning Sentry, but how frustrating and frightening would it be to you if your opponent kept popping back up after you have dispersed him? Can you really beat something like that?

3. As said before, Owen was owning Sentry, but Bob was learning his powers on the fly. At the end of the confrontation, it appeared that whatever Owen could do, Bob could do better at that point. I guess my point is, the only reason Owen was dominating Bob, was because Bob didn't know what he was doing. It seemed in the end that Bob had the powerset to compete and win.


I realize the MM is an uber character and we shouldn't even be having this conversation, but here we are.

^^Actually Owen's mental issues have been explained retroactively by New Avengers-
His mental blocks and fluctuations in power due to mental trauma are due to the fact that ever since his simultaneous accident in every universe, he instructed Doom and gave him a weapon to hunt him down and kill him across all reality in order to start the incursions, and because he's a single being linked across all realities this completely screwed with his mind.

But yeah peak MM stomps.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Okay, he wins. It happened in comics. And the reason Sentry gets a bad rap is because he's a poorly thought out character who continues to change according to the story. Sentry gets a bad rap because of Superman, Thor and Silver Surfer butthurt.

Originally posted by tkitna

1. How do characters give themselves mental blocks?
Wouldn't you think the first sign of despair would tear them down?
Perhaps. In Owen's case, his "unlimited" side is a beast that stated and proved to be far beyond Owen.

Owen consciously mentally blocked him from manifesting years prior to Sentry.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16576320_Owen2.jpg

I wouldn't know if Kaminski's Owen Reece (above) relates to Hickman's in anyway though.
Originally posted by tkitna

2. Yes, Owen was owning Sentry, but how frustrating and frightening would it be to you
if your opponent kept popping back up after you have dispersed him? Can you really beat something like that?
An interesting point. Imo, Owen should've tried harder,
like when he re-created from scratch all the stars of a universe with a thought.
Originally posted by tkitna

3. As said before, Owen was owning Sentry, but Bob was learning his powers on the fly. At the end of the confrontation, it appeared that whatever Owen could do, Bob could do better at that point. I guess my point is, the only reason Owen was dominating Bob, was because Bob didn't know what he was doing. It seemed in the end that Bob had the powerset to compete and win.
Perhaps he did, or perhaps Owen willingly wanted to fail anyway, as stated by his subconscious?
Perhaps Void/Sentry (who actually defeated Owen) was more powerful than that version of Owen Reece.

Imo though, it would take a far bigger 'gun' to beat pre-Hickman's Molecule Man or even mentally stable Owen Reece.

I heard Hickman's Owen Reece is 'universal' ... he should be able to win every time as-well.
Originally posted by tkitna

I realize the MM is an uber character and we shouldn't even be having this conversation, but here we are.
I agree. But it shouldn't go any further than this.

Sentry did have the power to compete with MM..that is, the version of MM that he was fighting. Which wasn't anywhere near his peak.

Likewise, how does a character give themselves mental blocks? Same way they fly and shoot lasers out of their eyeballs.