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Goku seemed unsure if Vegetto could beat Bills, but the Super Saiyan Gods aren't at Bills level, so...

Who wins?

I don't know about this one, I would love for the creators to compare DBS' new powers to Z's. Maybe one day they will. This might be a good fight.

Massive ki vs God ki. I'd also like to know how GT's powers compare to Super's, too. Is Super simply a replacement of GT or did they not have GT's insanity in mind at all when making Super.

Originally posted by cdtm
Goku seemed unsure if Vegetto could beat Bills, but the Super Saiyan Gods aren't at Bills level, so...

Who wins? Actually, Goku knew that fusion wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus... That's why he didn't even try it.

Anywho, V-Jump confirmed that as of BoG, Beerus was the most powerful being in the history of Z. By far:
http://i.imgur.com/xtOjDpW.jpg
"Mystery 5: Frankly... "Birusu" is Strong!?
We'll be blunt about this at least: "Birusu" is without a doubt the strongest being in the history of "Z"!!!"

This means Beerus>>Vegetto by proxy.


That said, BSSJG Vegeta, like BSSJG Goku, is approaching 100% Beerus' level. He cannot beat Beerus himself, mind you, but he is likely powerful enough to put up a decent fight. He should stomp Vegetto, tbh.

Not even a fight, it's a slaughter in Vegetas favor.

Time, who do you want to win in that new Superman vs God Goku battle that is about to happen?

Originally posted by carver9
Time, who do you want to win in that new Superman vs God Goku battle that is about to happen?

Didn't know there was one. Who is doing it?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Didn't know there was one. Who is doing it?


https://youtu.be/fXH286nM-Fo

Nice to see more non DBZ vs HST threa... oh wait

Prolly Superman

Originally posted by Galan007
Actually, Goku knew that fusion wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus... That's why he didn't even try it.

Anywho, V-Jump confirmed that as of BoG, Beerus was the most powerful being in the history of Z. By far:
http://i.imgur.com/xtOjDpW.jpg
"Mystery 5: Frankly... "Birusu" is Strong!?
We'll be blunt about this at least: "Birusu" is without a doubt the strongest being in the history of "Z"!!!"

This means Beerus>>Vegetto by proxy.


That said, BSSJG Vegeta, like BSSJG Goku, is approaching 100% Beerus' level. He cannot beat Beerus himself, mind you, but he is likely powerful enough to put up a decent fight. He should stomp Vegetto, tbh.

I think it's hilarious that you're basing your entire argument on a single statement from the editors at Jump. Who also said that base Vegetto was stronger than a SSJ4.

Anyway, what you're saying here, is that Vegetto shouldn't be able to lay a finger on Bills. But SSJ2 Vegeta did. So if Bills is a thousand times stronger than a SSJ3, then he doesn't do a very good job of showing it.

In fact, going by feats alone, SSJG could be less than a 10X boost to SSJ3. Saying it's greater than 50X SSJ3, is just purely ridiculous.

And btw, Vegetto is wayyy stronger than Gogeta, and Goku's statement already implied that Gogeta was stronger than SSJG Goku. So... You know. Gogeta >= SSJG Goku, and Vegetto >>> Gogeta. So unless the 30% difference between SSJG Goku and Bills, is bigger than the difference between Vegetto and Gogeta, then Bills has no chance here.

Going by feats alone Goku hasn't blown up a planet. Of course he can so that is a moot point.

Beerus can destroy two stars, tank the resulting supernova, and then stand in a black hole. Tell me more about Vegetto's feats. Ignoring, obviously, the anime.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I think it's hilarious that you're basing your entire argument on a single statement from the editors at Jump. Who also said that base Vegetto was stronger than a SSJ4. a.) V-Jump is a 100% canon DBZ source, of equal canonicity as the manga/Daizenshuu... There's a reason ALL new DBZ info(including the new manga) is released there FIRST.

b.) That statement about Vegetto "perhaps"(key word) being more powerful than SSJ4 appeared in the GT Special, not V-Jump. And the Special is not an adequate/irrefutable source. Some of the info in it was flat-out wrong, in fact.

Again, it's best to know something about the material you bring up, before you bring it up. Makes you look like much less of an ill-informed ass that way.


Anywho, BSSJG Vegeta takes this easily.

Make it DBM Vegeto and you have a fight

Or how about God SSJ Ki vs Legendary SSJ Ki?

Was it ever specified how strong Vegito was? I can not find any indication of any sort of limitation on his power. From all the research I've done, I could only find that he was/is not as strong as Beerus.

I was also told some time ago that volume 2 of DBGT Perfect Files stated Super Vegito was as powerful as a SSJ4. I've also seen it repeated by others, stating the Perfect Files as a source, but alas, it seems volume 2 has never been translated.

Originally posted by carver9
Time, who do you want to win in that new Superman vs God Goku battle that is about to happen?

Going by his attitude, they basically used "Man of Steel" movie SuperDarkKnight for this one.

Well animated fight, but I preferred the tongue in cheek humor they had in the last one.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I was also told some time ago that volume 2 of DBGT Perfect Files stated Super Vegito was as powerful as a SSJ4. I've also seen it repeated by others, stating the Perfect Files as a source, but alas, it seems volume 2 has never been translated. This is the excerpt you're referring to:
http://i.imgur.com/ZdkKdSx.jpg
Translation:


It certainly doesn't suffice as admissible proof that Vegetto>SSJ4, as it is a speculatory statement, at best--"perhaps" x>y doesn't confirm a thing. There were a few other tidbits from that Special that were flat-out wrong as well. One example: it also stated that SSJ2 was never used again after the Cell saga, which we know is obviously incorrect.

Suffice to say: it is widely regarded as an inadmissible source due to all of its glaring inaccuracies.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Going by feats alone Goku hasn't blown up a planet. Of course he can so that is a moot point.

Beerus can destroy two stars, tank the resulting supernova, and then stand in a black hole. Tell me more about Vegetto's feats. Ignoring, obviously, the anime.

I wasn't talking about feats of destruction, I was talking about feats of beating someone. Practically the only ones in DBZ with any destructive feats are Frieza, Kid Buu, and Bills. Unless we take statements, then we can include Cell.

But whoa, when has Bills ever done that? Or was it stated? Either way, could you provide the source you got that from? If you're making that up, I'll be really bummed though, because that would be awesome for a DBZ character to finally get feats like that.

Anyway, base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, in the anime. Either way, Super Vegetto utterly TOYED with Buuhan. SSJ3 Goku couldn't take on Super Buu, in the manga, and that was teamed with SSJ2 Vegeta. So Super Buu was at least twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, and Buutenks was over thrice as strong as Super Buu, and Buuhan was over twice as strong as Buutenks, AT LEAST. That alone makes Buuhan over 12 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku. IF we're assuming that SSJG is a 10X boost to SSJ3, then Buuhan would be around as strong as SSJGSSJ Goku. And Super Vegetto could have killed Buuhan with a GESTURE. I'd say that at least puts Super Vegetto above Bills. Or at least around equal to him.

Although we have to assume a bunch here, because we have no real indicators of any of these facts. Bills COULD be a million times stronger than Super Vegetto, and Super Vegetto COULD be 10 times stronger than Bills.

What we do know though, points to them being close to the same level. And since Base Vegetto >>> SSJ3 Goku, I think that means that there is NO WAY, that SSJG Goku > Super Vegetto. That would mean that SSJG > 50X SSJ3. And I don't see that being the case. I would say it be EXACTLY 50X SSJ3, but any higher would be unrealistic, given what SSJG has displayed.

Whis recounts a story where Beerus destroyed two stars. The destruction of stars leads to supernova. Whis also comments that it was dark and inconvenient, which sounds like a black hole. Since the whole story has a kind of jokey vibe to it it can be reasonably assumed that neither Whis or Beerus were particularly hurt by what must have transpired.

Then again Toriyama might have written it like Beerus just broke two light bulbs and that is why it got dark, ignoring what realistically would have occurred.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I wasn't talking about feats of destruction, I was talking about feats of beating someone. Practically the only ones in DBZ with any destructive feats are Frieza, Kid Buu, and Bills. Unless we take statements, then we can include Cell.

But whoa, when has Bills ever done that? Or was it stated? Either way, could you provide the source you got that from? If you're making that up, I'll be really bummed though, because that would be awesome for a DBZ character to finally get feats like that.

Anyway, base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, in the anime. Either way, Super Vegetto utterly TOYED with Buuhan. SSJ3 Goku couldn't take on Super Buu, in the manga, and that was teamed with SSJ2 Vegeta. So Super Buu was at least twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, and Buutenks was over thrice as strong as Super Buu, and Buuhan was over twice as strong as Buutenks, AT LEAST. That alone makes Buuhan over 12 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku. IF we're assuming that SSJG is a 10X boost to SSJ3, then Buuhan would be around as strong as SSJGSSJ Goku. And Super Vegetto could have killed Buuhan with a GESTURE. I'd say that at least puts Super Vegetto above Bills. Or at least around equal to him.

Although we have to assume a bunch here, because we have no real indicators of any of these facts. Bills COULD be a million times stronger than Super Vegetto, and Super Vegetto COULD be 10 times stronger than Bills.

What we do know though, points to them being close to the same level. And since Base Vegetto >>> SSJ3 Goku, I think that means that there is NO WAY, that SSJG Goku > Super Vegetto. That would mean that SSJG > 50X SSJ3. And I don't see that being the case. I would say it be EXACTLY 50X SSJ3, but any higher would be unrealistic, given what SSJG has displayed.

Super Buu is at the very least 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku. This has be verified

Also, SSJ3 Gotenks was ~ Super Buu. So obviously when Super Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, it would have 'only' doubled his power.

And since Buutenks was comfortably beyond Shin Gohan, we know that Gohan wasn't even 2x> Super Buu. That said, Buuhan could not have been more than 3-4x> Super Buu.

IOW, this is wrong:
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buutenks was over thrice as strong as Super Buu, and Buuhan was over twice as strong as Buutenks, AT LEAST.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is the excerpt you're referring to:
http://i.imgur.com/ZdkKdSx.jpg
Translation:


It certainly doesn't suffice as admissible proof that Vegetto>SSJ4, as it is a speculatory statement, at best--"perhaps" x>y doesn't confirm a thing. There were a few other tidbits from that Special that were flat-out wrong as well. One example: it also stated that SSJ2 was never used again after the Cell saga, which we know is obviously incorrect.

Suffice to say: it is widely regarded as an inadmissible source due to all of its glaring inaccuracies.

Well then, there you have it. I actually believe that statement to the degree that Vegito is around that level. His power was never close to being tested so I had no idea where his limits were.

I'm not bothered by the inconsistencies, since the series itself has been wildly inconsistent. It finally sheds some light on something that is completely unknowable, without it.mOn top of that, I wasn't told that the source was inadmissible, everyone who brought it to me swears by it. The contents of the 1st volume are even used at Akira Toriyama's fan site.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I'm not bothered by the inconsistencies, since the series itself has been wildly inconsistent. It finally sheds some light on something that is completely unknowable, without it.mOn top of that, I wasn't told that the source was inadmissible, everyone who brought it to me swears by it. The contents of the 1st volume are even used at Akira Toriyama's fan site. The notion that Vegetto>SSJ4 completely falls apart when we consider things like: Goku stating that Super Baby Vegeta 1 had the most powerful ki he'd EVER felt up to that point.... Along with logical power-scaling in GT(for starters, Goku begins the series with about 400x the power he had in Z. No joke.)

They probably DO swear by that one excerpt... Because they don't know about the rest of the inconsistencies in the book. Aside from that, the use of the word "perhaps" excludes the possibility of the statement being taken as irrefutable fact anyway, so clinging to it as gospel is kind of silly.


On a sidenote: people are always so quick to assume that Vegetto was several orders of magnitude beyond Buuhan, without realizing that one-sided shit-stomps can occur in DBZ without gargantuan power differences existing between the respective combatants.

Examples:
Vegeta vs. Kiwi
Vegeta vs. Dodoria
Goku vs. Recoome/Burter/Jeice
50% Freeza vs. SSJ Goku
Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta
Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Fat Buu vs. SSJ2 Gohan
Super Buu vs. Shin Gohan
Buutenks vs. Shin Gohan
Pure Buu vs. SSJ2 Vegeta
etc. etc.

In each of those examples, no more than a 2-3x difference in power exists, yet they were all laughably lopsided battles. Hell, even Whis is less than 2x> Beerus, yet can still KO him with one casual chop.

Point: technically speaking, Vegetto could have 'only' been twice as powerful as Buuhan, and still beaten him just as effortlessly. /shrug

I did not get Vegetto>SSJ4 from that material. The fact that "perhaps" exists in that statement stops that conclusion, for me. However, given the fact that it was stated, at all, is an indication that he is 'around' that level. There's no reason for him not to be, SSJ2 multiplied by another SSJ2 will be a very extreme level of power. Even in GT, even if we use the most extreme-concocted multipliers out there.

Goku saying Bebi had the strongest Ki he had ever felt, given this info; I chalk that up to yet another inconsistency and considering GT isn't canon, I see no reason to take it as seriously as that. Especially since, besides Vegito; who is Goku himself, Bebi probably would be the strongest ki he's ever encountered.

I heard Goku was much stronger in GT than in Z, but why? I know he's stronger, but I've heard he's 1000X, 100X, 4000X, and now 400X. I can understand the Z calcs, but the GT calcs seem to come out of thin air. Where is everyone getting these numbers from?

I should also mention, just from a numbers stand point, Z Goku X any number in the thousands pales, in comparison to SSJ2 Z Goku X SSJ2 Z Vegeta. That ends up being a very big number. 400 million X 400, for example, is still less than a single million X a single million. Goku may be weaker in Z, but when you multiply that by Vegeta, that reaches a level that, mathematically, is hard to over come. Given this, I find it completely reasonable that a SSJ2 Vejito could still outclass most opponents well into DBGT. Freeza of all characters, his 2nd form multiplied by his 2nd form is 1 trillion. The fact that Vejito's fusion is confirmed to be multiplication added to the fact that he has never been challenged is what makes him an extreme case.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
There's no reason for him not to be, SSJ2 multiplied by another SSJ2 will be a very extreme level of power. Even in GT, even if we use the most extreme-concocted multipliers out there. The PL x PL concept from the guidebook is complete garbage. If Potara really did multiply power levels, then Kikito Kai would have been able to effortlessly shit-stomp Buu.

Even if Supreme Kaioshin and Kibito each had a power level of a scant 1 million(in all actuality, they were hundreds of times more powerful than that), Kibito Kai would've had a PL of 1 TRILLION. Sorry, but there's just no possible way that's accurate.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Goku saying Bebi had the strongest Ki he had ever felt, given this info; I chalk that up to yet another inconsistency and considering GT isn't canon, I see no reason to take it as seriously as that. Especially since, besides Vegito; who is Goku himself, Bebi probably would be the strongest ki he's ever encountered. While GT is non-canon to Z, Z is still canon to GT. So when Goku said that Super Baby Vegeta 1 was >> anyone he's ever sensed before, it factors in ALL power levels in the mythos up to that point(including those from Z.)

You need to have a firm grasp on this concept before we can move on.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I heard Goku was much stronger in GT than in Z, but why? I know he's stronger, but I've heard he's 1000X, 100X, 4000X, and now 400X. I can understand the Z calcs, but the GT calcs seem to come out of thin air. Where is everyone getting these numbers from? Because in Z, SSJ3 Goku was around Buu-level.

By the time of GT, Goku was able to match 1st form Rildo, who he confirmed was "even more powerful than Majin Buu", in his base state. This means base GT Goku~SSJ3 Z Goku... And given that SSJ3 is 400x> base, it means that GT Goku was at least 400x more powerful than Z Goku.

This didn't come out of thin air, this is irrefutable fact.

Yeah, Beerus should be able to comfortably take out Vegitto with less than a third of his power.

SSJG2 Vegeta isn't quite as strong as Beerus is, but should still stomp.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
Whis recounts a story where Beerus destroyed two stars. The destruction of stars leads to supernova. Whis also comments that it was dark and inconvenient, which sounds like a black hole. Since the whole story has a kind of jokey vibe to it it can be reasonably assumed that neither Whis or Beerus were particularly hurt by what must have transpired.

Then again Toriyama might have written it like Beerus just broke two light bulbs and that is why it got dark, ignoring what realistically would have occurred.

When did this Whiss say this?

http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/102/2749/14.png

Tada~

Originally posted by Galan007
Also, SSJ3 Gotenks was ~ Super Buu. So obviously when Super Buu absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks, it would have 'only' doubled his power.

And since Buutenks was comfortably beyond Shin Gohan, we know that Gohan wasn't even 2x> Super Buu. That said, Buuhan could not have been more than 3-4x> Super Buu.

IOW, this is wrong:

Buutenks wasn't just Gotenks absorbed, it was Piccolo as well. And while Piccolo was pretty much nothing next to SSJ3 Gotenks, he was still around SSJ1 level, for the rest of the characters.

Anyway, no, SSJ3 Gotenks was toying with Super Buu the entire fight. He even profusely stated, after witnessing the limits of Super Buu's regeneration, that he could kill Super Buu. Not to mention that he utterly dominated Super Buu, without getting a single scratch on him. He was just so stupid, that he lost his advantage, because he didn't think of his time limit on SSJ3, while fused.

http://i6.mangacdn.com/dragon-ball/496/dragon-ball-1952509.jpg

Don't know why everyone likes to act like SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equals. He was shitting on him. He only lost because he unfused, because he wanted it to be more "spectacular", when they won.

So SSJ3 Gotenks is only about twice as strong as Super Buu. That would mean that Buutenks was around 3 times stronger than Super Buu, and that's not including the addition of Piccolo. Then, since Mystic Gohan was able to still fight on par with Buutenks, that means that he was ALSO at least 3 times stronger than Super Buu. Meaning that Buuhan wasn't THAT much stronger than Buutenks, but was stronger than him. So either way, the point is that Base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger AT LEAST 6 times stronger than Super Buu. And going by power levels in the Daizenshuu, Super Buu was 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, already. The Daizenshuu also confirms that Super Buu's power level was 1,200,000,000,000, and that Buutenks's power level was 2,400,000,000,000, which makes him twice as strong as Super Buu. Buuhan was a 2.7 trillion. Goku and Vegeta's base power levels multiplied together(375,000,000, and 300,000,000 respectively), is Vegetto's base power level, which is a STAGGERING 112,500,000,000,000,000, or 112.5 quadrillion.

Either way, the point here is that there is absolutely no way that SSJG can make up for that difference.

HOWEVER, SSJGSSJ was nearly as strong as Golden Frieza. The statement was a joke, but IF Frieza's power level was really 100 quintillion, then even SSJ3 Vegetto would fall short, as his power level would be 45,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 45 quintillion.

But, that statement was kinda BS, and was admittedly a joke.

So yes, Vegetto stomps here. Hell, given the scaling, Super Vegetto could probably take Whiss.

Lol, that post is all kinds of wrong. For starters...

Piccolo explicitly stated that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equalish:
http://i.imgur.com/4dR3ZlV.png
IF there was a difference between them one way or the other, it was marginal. At best. The notion that Gotenks was 2x more powerful than Super Buu is laughable. Furthermore, as has been pointed out: Super Buu was explicitly NOT trying to kill Gotenks, because he knew that his added power would be required to fight Gohan:
http://i.imgur.com/aAme7oVm.jpg
ie. he was explicitly NOT out for the kill, and wouldn't have risked using any potentially lethal attacks against Gotenks.

However, I'm not saying that Gotenks wasn't more powerful--he may have been. But ALL facts considered(your baseless opinions aren't facts, btw), they were around the same level.


Secondly, Mystic Gohan was, in no way/shape/form, "on par" with Buutenks. In fact, it was an utterly one-sided shit-stomp in Buutenks' favor. Here's the entire battle:
http://i.imgur.com/PIRzPYe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lCi7l9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3js7cRB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gH307MO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fdkz9rD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4RlISey.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lLvmiLj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V78dyJW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jmRFx7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IIOfpvQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nbUFAcQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XFBN7gd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dgUCX22.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZEmGbsm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nT3uJvG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ao1iGzH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/l9oO3cD.png


So again: when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks, and doubled his power, he was able to own Mystic Gohan easily... Which means that Gohan wasn't more than 2x> Super Buu.


The rest of your post is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a response.

From what I read, all sources say it's "more like multiplication", not that it is multiplication. However, almost all sources point out that Vejito is special, Goku X Vegeta = Vejito. I don't know why Vejito is different but there is literally no reason to deny Word of God Testimony when Vejito was shown to be well above anything in Z. I'm not going to start picking and chosing info from guide books unless the info is retconed by newer material. That's slippery slope territory.

Since GT is not canon, anything stated within it that appears to be inconsistent is grounds to be thrown out as hearsay. You are to take the Canon source over the nocanon. You can't bemoan source books for inconsistencies for inconsistencies that suit what want to believe over what actually exists. That's very dishonest and illustrates that you may not even believe what you say. Also, from what I gathered from the reading, Vejito is around SSJ4, not that he was over; considering the battle Goku had with Bebi, Bebi could be stronger than Vejito. This doesn't take away from what is clearly implied by the statements concerning Vejito's power.

We are all DBZ fans here, we are supposed to Discuss things openly and Honestly, not engage angry debates to prove dishonest points of view, please remember this. So with that said, thank you for shining light on that particular GT calc. That makes sense. Goku being 400X stronger is much more sensible than everything else I was reading.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
From what I read, all sources say it's "more like multiplication", not that it is multiplication. However, almost all sources point out that Vejito is special, Goku X Vegeta = Vejito. I don't know why Vejito is different but there is literally no reason to deny Word of God Testimony when Vejito was shown to be well above anything in Z. I'm not going to start picking and chosing info from guide books unless the info is retconed by newer material. That's slippery slope territory. I'm not picking any choosing either. I'm telling you that it's absurd to assume that Vegetto's power level was Goku's x Vegeta's.

Why? Because if they each had a base PL of 100m(which is logical based on what we know), then base Vegetto's PL would have been around 10 QUADRILLION(10,000,000,000,000,000)... Which means SSJ Vegetto's PL would be 50x that(5.e+17.)

If you cannot see the stupidity in clinging to that, then you're just being pig-headed, imo. It's ridiculous. srsly

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Since GT is not canon, anything stated within it that appears to be inconsistent is grounds to be thrown out as hearsay. You are to take the Canon source over the nocanon. You can't bemoan source books for inconsistencies for inconsistencies that suit what want to believe over what actually exists. That's very dishonest and illustrates that you may not even believe what you say. Also, from what I gathered from the reading, Vejito is around SSJ4, not that he was over; considering the battle Goku had with Bebi, Bebi could be stronger than Vejito. This doesn't take away from what is clearly implied by the statements concerning Vejito's power. Again: Z IS STILL CANON TO GT. So when Goku stated that SBV1>>ALL before him, it obviously factors in those he'd sensed in the Z-era as well... Which means SBV1>Vegetto... Which means Vegetto cannot possibly be on par with SSJ4 Goku, because SSJ4 Goku was many times more powerful than SBV1. GT Guidebooks don't override established facts from the show itself.

Vegetto wins imo.

@Galan007

I do believe Vejito is that strong, you personally might not like the math, but Goku X Vegeta is stated in more than 1 official source. It sounds wild, but it is what it is. It's wrong to deny it just because it sounds silly, especially since we have no idea how strong he really is. This is probably why the series stopped using power levels.

I know z is canon to GT, trust me, I know. The issue you are unaware of is GT is not canon to Z, as we see in DBS. Because the Canon is not a 2 way occurrence, Z has the power to retcon GT, thus making it less relavent with each new event, like BoG and RoF, DBZ movies invented without GT in mind, at all.

Knowing this, if a statement made in a source book related to a Z character contradicts a statement made in a non canon show about a non canon addition to the cast, I am going to side with the statement involving the 100% canon character. Not that this is even the case since Bebi is also around SSJ4 level.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I do believe Vejito is that strong facepalm

Originally posted by U need Leonard
The issue you are unaware of is GT is not canon to Z I am? Is that why I said this a few posts ago?:
Originally posted by Galan007
While GT is non-canon to Z, Z is still canon to GT.
Keep inserting your foot in your mouth, though. Lol.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Knowing this, if a statement made in a source book related to a Z character contradicts a statement made in a non canon show about a non canon addition to the cast, I am going to side with the statement involving the 100% canon character. Not that this is even the case since Bebi is also around SSJ4 level. Lol. That excerpt about Vegetto is from a GT Sourcebook, bud... And as I mentioned before: it is riddled with glaring inconsistencies(this is one of them.) That, again, is why it is FAR from an irrefutable source.

Anywho, where GT is concerned SBV1>ALL before him--Goku, who can very accurately sense ki, explicitly confirmed this:
http://i.imgur.com/oPGqQRa.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dq2r1J5.jpg


And since SSJ4 Goku was VASTLY more powerful than SBV1, there's no possible way that Vegetto could have been on par with SSJ4 Goku. It goes like this:
SSJ4 Goku ~ Golden Oozaru Baby > Super Baby Vegeta 2 >> Super Baby Vegeta 1 > ALL before him in both Z and GT. Why? BECAUSE Z IS CANON TO GT!

It doesn't matter if you don't like or agree with this. Sourcebooks(especially this Sourcebook) DO NOT override what was stated in the original source material itself. This is a very, very basic concept to grasp.

Stop being purposefully obtuse.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Buutenks wasn't just Gotenks absorbed, it was Piccolo as well. And while Piccolo was pretty much nothing next to SSJ3 Gotenks, he was still around SSJ1 level, for the rest of the characters.

Anyway, no, SSJ3 Gotenks was toying with Super Buu the entire fight. He even profusely stated, after witnessing the limits of Super Buu's regeneration, that he could kill Super Buu. Not to mention that he utterly dominated Super Buu, without getting a single scratch on him. He was just so stupid, that he lost his advantage, because he didn't think of his time limit on SSJ3, while fused.

http://i6.mangacdn.com/dragon-ball/496/dragon-ball-1952509.jpg

Don't know why everyone likes to act like SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equals. He was shitting on him. He only lost because he unfused, because he wanted it to be more "spectacular", when they won.

So SSJ3 Gotenks is only about twice as strong as Super Buu. That would mean that Buutenks was around 3 times stronger than Super Buu, and that's not including the addition of Piccolo. Then, since Mystic Gohan was able to still fight on par with Buutenks, that means that he was ALSO at least 3 times stronger than Super Buu. Meaning that Buuhan wasn't THAT much stronger than Buutenks, but was stronger than him. So either way, the point is that Base Vegetto was stronger than Buuhan, who was stronger AT LEAST 6 times stronger than Super Buu. And going by power levels in the Daizenshuu, Super Buu was 8 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, already. The Daizenshuu also confirms that Super Buu's power level was 1,200,000,000,000, and that Buutenks's power level was 2,400,000,000,000, which makes him twice as strong as Super Buu. Buuhan was a 2.7 trillion. Goku and Vegeta's base power levels multiplied together(375,000,000, and 300,000,000 respectively), is Vegetto's base power level, which is a STAGGERING 112,500,000,000,000,000, or 112.5 quadrillion.

Either way, the point here is that there is absolutely no way that SSJG can make up for that difference.

HOWEVER, SSJGSSJ was nearly as strong as Golden Frieza. The statement was a joke, but IF Frieza's power level was really 100 quintillion, then even SSJ3 Vegetto would fall short, as his power level would be 45,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 45 quintillion.

But, that statement was kinda BS, and was admittedly a joke.

So yes, Vegetto stomps here. Hell, given the scaling, Super Vegetto could probably take Whiss.

What are you even talking about No way in hell does Vegetto take SSGSS Vegeta. Are you out of your mind?

-edit-

You're STILL ignoring this:
http://i.imgur.com/oPGqQRa.jpg http://i.imgur.com/dq2r1J5.jpg

Goku outright confirms that SBV1>ALL before him(this obviously includes Vegetto.) A GT Sourcebook does NOT override the original GT source material anymore then the Daizenshuu overrides the original DBZ manga.

You must be trolling at this point, because no one can be this ignorant. It's actually quite ridiculous.

-edit-

Ur dumb as shit

Do you actually know what you're talking about?

Originally posted by U need Leonard
Do you actually know what you're talking about?

Do you?

Yes.

Not apparently, cause Galan proved your were wrong and you just carrying on like a toddler.

He's proving things that I'm not saying. Why ask the question if you already had a predetermined opinion on the matter, anyway....That was very "dumb", in and of itself.

The way Bills hushed up Whis when she was going on about how he wanted to blow up planet Vegeta, I'm wondering if he and the individual Saiyans are closer then we think.. Maybe enough where even at 100%, he'd wear himself out if he won, and isn't even confident he'd win every time anymore..

Originally posted by U need Leonard
But I suppose if you want to ignore the very purpose of a source book, you can. I wont. Again, the very definition of a sourcebook is to provide an authoritative basis for the original source. By this 'logic', if a Sourcebook said that Goku is actually a 200 foot tall pink bunny who shits magical rainbows, you'd believe it over the anime/manga's depiction of him... Because in your world, Sourcebooks>original source material.

That's pretty f*cking stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by Galan007
By this 'logic', if a Sourcebook said that Goku is actually a 200 foot tall pink bunny who shits magical rainbows, you'd believe it over the anime/manga's depiction of him... Because in your world, Sourcebooks>original source material.

That's pretty f*cking stupid, tbh.

Good thing that this sourcebook never said such a thing and never will.

Good thing it's an analogy for same logic he's using..? He believes that Sourcebooks supersede the original source material... Which is idiotic, frankly. If a Sourcebook and the original source material are at odds, the original source material is ALWAYS what we default to, as it is ultimately the highest form of canonicity.

Again, this is day-one stuff. It is absolutely ridiculous that I'm still having to discuss such a remedial concept. srsly

I'm having a really hard time imagining SSJ Vegito being close to SSJ4 in power.

A hypothetical SSJ3 Vegito, maybe.

How the hell are people thinking Vegetto is anywhere close to SSGSS? Goku already said it would be useless on the pink cat.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
How the hell are people thinking Vegetto is anywhere close to SSGSS? Goku already said it would be useless on the pink cat.

He was clearly talking about metamoran fusion, as he had no potara's to fuse with in the first place.

And Bills is purple.

It doesnt matter, you have stated numerous times Gogeta and Vegetto were almost identical in strength, but Gogeta's time limit would make him lose.

That said SSGSS wins

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
It doesnt matter, you have stated numerous times Gogeta and Vegetto were almost identical in strength, but Gogeta's time limit would make him lose.

That said SSGSS wins

I have said that, and I admitted a LONG time ago that Vegetto would crush Gogeta.

SSJ3 Goten would be able to stomp SSJ1 Goku, and SSJ3 Trunks would do the same to SSJ1 Vegeta. So SSJ3 Gotenks would stomp Super Gogeta. But base Vegetto is superior to Buuhan, who was stronger than Buutenks, who was stronger than Mystic Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So Base Vegetto > SSJ Gogeta, and probably even SSJ3 Gogeta.

Anyway, no, Vegetto is wayyy too strong, as I've already proven.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, that post is all kinds of wrong. For starters...

Piccolo explicitly stated that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were equalish:
http://i.imgur.com/4dR3ZlV.png
IF there was a difference between them one way or the other, it was marginal. At best. The notion that Gotenks was 2x more powerful than Super Buu is laughable. Furthermore, as has been pointed out: Super Buu was explicitly NOT trying to kill Gotenks, because he knew that his added power would be required to fight Gohan:
http://i.imgur.com/aAme7oVm.jpg
ie. he was explicitly NOT out for the kill, and wouldn't have risked using any potentially lethal attacks against Gotenks.

However, I'm not saying that Gotenks wasn't more powerful--he may have been. But ALL facts considered(your baseless opinions aren't facts, btw), they were around the same level.


Secondly, Mystic Gohan was, in no way/shape/form, "on par" with Buutenks. In fact, it was an utterly one-sided shit-stomp in Buutenks' favor. Here's the entire battle:
http://i.imgur.com/PIRzPYe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lCi7l9i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3js7cRB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gH307MO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Fdkz9rD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4RlISey.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lLvmiLj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V78dyJW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5jmRFx7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IIOfpvQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nbUFAcQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XFBN7gd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dgUCX22.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZEmGbsm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nT3uJvG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ao1iGzH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/l9oO3cD.png


So again: when Super Buu absorbed Gotenks, and doubled his power, he was able to own Mystic Gohan easily... Which means that Gohan wasn't more than 2x> Super Buu.


The rest of your post is so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a response.

1. What? Piccolo stated in no way, shape, or form, that Gotenks and Buu were "equal". He said that Buu hated to think that someone WAS his equal, not that they were equal. The statement implies nothing more than what it implies, which is that Super Buu was weakened mentally, by the fact that Gotenks was AT LEAST his equal.

2. Yes, Super Buu wasn't explicitly trying to kill Gotenks. BUT GOTENKS WASN'T TRYING TO KILL HIM EITHER, WHICH WAS EXPLICITLY STATED.

http://i10.mangacdn.com/dragon-ball/493/dragon-ball-72165.jpg

It was also stated MANY other times that Gotenks wasn't trying to kill him, simply because it would be more spectacular to have a close fight. Hell, Trunks and Goten even PLANNED this, like a week BEFORE the fight.

3. Also, good job at again avoiding the fact that Gotenks EXPLICITLY STATED that he could kill Super Buu, and Super Buu was terrified. The only reason he didn't was because he unfused at the last second.

4. Um, that fight was pretty damn self-explanatory. Yes, Buutenks was OBVIOUSLY stronger than Gohan, but Gohan was still CLOSE to his strength. Enough to be able to break out of THREE of his galactic doughnuts, and dodge basically EVERY one of his ki blasts, except for the one Buutenks deflected back at him. He was mostly just buying time, but he managed to last over 20 minutes against Buutenks, which means he was pretty damn solid in his ability to fight him.

5. And also, you're forgetting that major statement here that proves this, Goku said that Buutenks had lost "a third of his power!", when he reverted to Buucolo. Which meant that with Goten and Trunks still in him, Gotenks accounted for ONLY A THIRD of his power. And Goku said that Gohan would be able to handle him. Meaning that Buutenks was less than 33% stronger than Gohan. which means that he wasn't even CLOSE to being twice as strong as him.

Also, good job at avoiding the cannon, author-approved, Daizenshuu power levels. Makes ya' look REALLY smart.

Originally posted by AuraAngel
http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/102/2749/14.png

Tada~

Oh wow, this was from Fukkatsu no F, no wonder I didn't know what you were talking about, lol.

Cool though, and thanks for posting.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I have said that, and I admitted a LONG time ago that Vegetto would crush Gogeta.

SSJ3 Goten would be able to stomp SSJ1 Goku, and SSJ3 Trunks would do the same to SSJ1 Vegeta. So SSJ3 Gotenks would stomp Super Gogeta. But base Vegetto is superior to Buuhan, who was stronger than Buutenks, who was stronger than Mystic Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So Base Vegetto > SSJ Gogeta, and probably even SSJ3 Gogeta.

Anyway, no, Vegetto is wayyy too strong, as I've already proven.

How is Vegetto beating the strongest form in the DBZ universe to date?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I have said that, and I admitted a LONG time ago that Vegetto would crush Gogeta.

SSJ3 Goten would be able to stomp SSJ1 Goku, and SSJ3 Trunks would do the same to SSJ1 Vegeta. So SSJ3 Gotenks would stomp Super Gogeta. But base Vegetto is superior to Buuhan, who was stronger than Buutenks, who was stronger than Mystic Gohan, who was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

So Base Vegetto > SSJ Gogeta, and probably even SSJ3 Gogeta.

Anyway, no, Vegetto is wayyy too strong, as I've already proven.

When was there a SSJ3 Trunks? I remember a USSJ but no SSJ3.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. What? Piccolo stated in no way, shape, or form, that Gotenks and Buu were "equal". He said that Buu hated to think that someone WAS his equal, not that they were equal. The statement implies nothing more than what it implies, which is that Super Buu was weakened mentally, by the fact that Gotenks was AT LEAST his equal. Um, duh? That's exactly WHY they are around the same level. IF there was a difference between them, it wasn't by any substantial amount or else Piccolo, or Goku, or the Kaioshin would have informed us of such.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
2. Yes, Super Buu wasn't explicitly trying to kill Gotenks. BUT GOTENKS WASN'T TRYING TO KILL HIM EITHER, WHICH WAS EXPLICITLY STATED.

3. Also, good job at again avoiding the fact that Gotenks EXPLICITLY STATED that he could kill Super Buu, and Super Buu was terrified. The only reason he didn't was because he unfused at the last second. You're contradicting yourself here. Gotenks didn't want to kill Super Buu, but wanted to kill him? Interesting. Anyway, Gotenks couldn't even kill Buu when he Kamikaze Ghosted him into hundreds of pieces, and vaporized said remains inside the RoSaT... There's no way trying to vaporize him again would have worked.

Don't let Gotenks' arrogance and empty boasts give you a false sense of security... He wrongly assumed that he could defeat/kill Buu in every single level, lol.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
4. Um, that fight was pretty damn self-explanatory. Yes, Buutenks was OBVIOUSLY stronger than Gohan, but Gohan was still CLOSE to his strength. Enough to be able to break out of THREE of his galactic doughnuts, and dodge basically EVERY one of his ki blasts, except for the one Buutenks deflected back at him. He was mostly just buying time, but he managed to last over 20 minutes against Buutenks, which means he was pretty damn solid in his ability to fight him. You're backpedaling. At first you said they were "on par" with one another. Now you're saying they were "close to" the same level. Pick a stance and stick with it. Stop moving the goalpost, lol.

Anyway, Gohan WASN'T "close to" Buu's level at all. Again: it was an absolutely one-sided shit-stomp in Buutenks' favor(see the scans I posted earlier.)

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. And also, you're forgetting that major statement here that proves this, Goku said that Buutenks had lost "a third of his power!", when he reverted to Buucolo. Yeah, except that wasn't stated in the canon text:
http://i.imgur.com/vYnAiILl.jpg

Your main problem in these threads is that you have no grasp on what is actually canon, and are too quick to spew inaccurate 'facts' from the anime and/or non-canon scanlations.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Also, good job at avoiding the cannon, author-approved, Daizenshuu power levels. Makes ya' look REALLY smart. There are NO "author-approved, Daizenshuu power levels" after the Freeza saga, btw.

I only like cheerleading for Galan, but so yea, he's right again.