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Well, we had one where a number of users thought he could match or even defeat Maul. So how does he fare against Tyranus?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-out

Fight takes place in the Geonosis hangar in AotC.

Nice troll thread Nova.

Nah, there's people here who might genuinely support Scourge for this.

Frothing at the mouth SWTORians aside, who?

Well, them, precisely.

So nobody worth listening to den

No, I'm genuinely curious about the arguments they'll raise for this thread.

Scourge's 300 years of experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Shield generator >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Cold and calculator >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Phuck the Shield Generator, then. Willing to entertain the experience argument.

Originally posted by ILS
Frothing at the mouth SWTORians aside, who?

Everybody not being a rabid PT fanboy, that ignores the character history of Scourge?

Originally posted by Nai
Everybody not being a rabid PT fanboy, that ignores the character history of Scourge? Interesting theory you have there.
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/i-like-swords-respect-thread-directory/97103/

Originally posted by ILS
Interesting theory you have there.
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/i_like_swords/blog/i-like-swords-respect-thread-directory/97103/

And what did you want to tell me with that link, besides the fact that the ToR era is not exactly your field of expertise?

That... I clearly have preferences outside of just the PT or the Old Republic eras?

Not that the PT is exactly your area of expertise either, given some of the drivel you manage to spill about it.

Dooku in all

I know enough about the TOR era to tell you Scourge dies.

Originally posted by ILS
That... I clearly have preferences outside of just the PT or the Old Republic eras?


That makes you less of a fanboy how exactly?



To the contrary. All eras are my field of expertise.

This is why I tell you, that I don't see much reason for a win of Dooku against Scourge, given the latter one personally killed more than a thousand people considered "too ambigious" or "too powerful" by Vitiate.

And since my "drivel" is usually leagues above anything people here come up with as "arguments" nowadays, you may want to muster all your debating skill to produce something on the more educated side of a "". Not that I think you're capable of doing so, considering your "respect threads".

The Count's killcount may be smaller, but we've seen him matched up against some of the best ever- Anakin, Yoda. And he does so better than Scourge would, IMO.

So I'm solidly in Tyranus's corner here.

It doesn't take a lot of skill to be utterly destroyed by Yoda or Anakin, actually. I'm quite confident Scourge, too, can replicate the Count's utter humiliation of himself.

10/10 an hero material

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It doesn't take a lot of skill to be utterly destroyed by Yoda or Anakin, actually. I'm quite confident Scourge, too, can replicate the Count's utter humiliation of himself.

He wasn't utterly destroyed though

If you want to see utterly destroyed see Yoda's humiliation of Plo Koon, Depa, and Tiin. Yoda would crush three Scourges with ease.

FYI, I can't seem to be able to edit my post, so the comic scans are in reversed order.

Originally posted by JKBart
10/10 an hero material

Dooku fans be like:

"300 years of battlefield experiencing fighting the greatest Sith and Jedi in the galaxy? Who the hell cares.

But... wait wait!? Dooku got utterly creamed by yODA but could stick his saber sword against Yoda's? HOLY SHIT DOOKU IS UBERGREAT."

I have to side with Dooku here but Ant makes good points.

Well it's quality vs quantity. Scourge has killed more Jedi and Sith than Dooku, but it's possible Dooku has gone up and defeated the better types of Jedi and Sith. The best duelist are Sidious Yoda and Anakin. Those are the top people in the PT era, and Sidious and Yoda would beat anyone else in the TOR era in a lightsaber duel. Dooku was able to go toe to toe with Yoda, without dieing with Yoda even complimenting him on how he's grown in power, noting him as the orders greatest student, training General Grevious who has killed several Jedi, humiliated Ventress, defeated both Obi wan and Anakin, defeated mace with both being out of their prime, and being noted as being one of the only people who can contend with Yoda or Mace on equal footing. Dooku has also defeated the combined might of quin Lin Vos and asajj Ventress and is defintily above many of the Jedi in the movies and TCW.

If I had to place Dooku on a saber list for the PT era he would be the second best tier. The only people I see beating Dooku defintily would be Sidious, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Caedus, Krayt, Kun, and Vader. Other than that I'm not seeing scourge really. Don't get me wrong Scourge has a hell of a lot battlefield experience, and Dooku will be at his best to win, but I'm not seeing a scourge win IMHO.

Scourge can give Dooku a great fight at the least.

dooku shits on scourges head

Originally posted by idk what u do
dooku shits on scourges head

you
i like you

I wonder if Ant's rampage against Dooku has anything to do with Revan vs Dooku. Ant, how much of that did you get from me btw?

And Scourge would fall to Yoda even faster, lol.

If a Jedi like Quinlan Vos can defeat Count Dooku, the latter is no longer special.

That makes Quinlan good, not Dooku bad. lmfao

Originally posted by SunRazer
That makes Quinlan good, not Dooku bad. lmfao
It makes me wonder who else can defeat Count Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It makes me wonder who else can defeat the Count.

Canon Quinlan isn't compatible with Legends Quinlan, so I fail to see why this is so jaw-dropping.

That was also a pretty poorly-written fight, but that aside, it's not as if Quinlan didn't enjoy circumstances on his side when he defeated the Count. And I thought the general consensus was that people didn't put Canon Vos above Maul here, anyway.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon Quinlan isn't compatible with Legends Quinlan, so I fail to see why this is so jaw-dropping.

That was also a pretty poorly-written fight, but that aside, it's not as if Quinlan didn't enjoy circumstances on his side when he defeated the Count. And I thought the general consensus was that people didn't put Canon Vos above Maul here, anyway.
Whether you consider Legends or Canon, Quinlan Vos improved with experience and additional training.

In Legends; Vos went from loosing to a skilled Jedi Master (i.e. Agen Kolar) to defeating another skilled Jedi Master (i.e. Sora Bulq).

In Canon; Vos went from struggling against a Bounty Hunter (i.e. Cade Bane?) to defeating a Sith Lord (i.e. Count Dooku).

Therefore, I am considering both Legends and Canon showings for the sake of argument.

Vos's victory over Count Dooku implies that a high-tier combatant can challenge and overcome the latter. Also, I don't recall any circumstances involved in this confrontation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Canon Quinlan isn't compatible with Legends Quinlan, so I fail to see why this is so jaw-dropping.

That was also a pretty poorly-written fight, but that aside, it's not as if Quinlan didn't enjoy circumstances on his side when he defeated the Count. And I thought the general consensus was that people didn't put Canon Vos above Maul here, anyway. IMO LS Vos is possibly weaker than Maul, but i doubt DS Vos would get beaten by Maul,unless you believe that statement which claims he would beat Dooku 6/10.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Therefore, I am considering both Legends and Canon showings for the sake of argument.

Vos's victory over Count Dooku implies that a high-tier combatant can challenge and overcome the latter. Also, I don't recall any circumstances involved in this confrontation.
What is sounds like is that you're cherry picking to help your argument, which you can't do.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Well it's quality vs quantity. Scourge has killed more Jedi and Sith than Dooku, but it's possible Dooku has gone up and defeated the better types of Jedi and Sith. The best duelist are Sidious Yoda and Anakin. Those are the top people in the PT era, and Sidious and Yoda would beat anyone else in the TOR era in a lightsaber duel. Dooku was able to go toe to toe with Yoda, without dieing with Yoda even complimenting him on how he's grown in power, noting him as the orders greatest student, training General Grevious who has killed several Jedi, humiliated Ventress, defeated both Obi wan and Anakin, defeated mace with both being out of their prime, and being noted as being one of the only people who can contend with Yoda or Mace on equal footing. Dooku has also defeated the combined might of quin Lin Vos and asajj Ventress and is defintily above many of the Jedi in the movies and TCW.

Oh. It's "quality vs quantity"?
I'd say if somebody like Vitiate considers you too powerful to be left alive, there must be some kind of quality to you in terms of power. And Scourge murdered a four digit number of individuals on which that description did fit.

And Dooku just managed to defeat people either vastly inferior to himself in terms of force powers or experience. Both categories that Scourge doesn't fit in. He is older than Dooku, has seen more combat and has been described as possessing a vast potential - with 300 years to realize it. Even assuming, that Dooku has more power than all people Scourge brought down, it stands to reason that some of them had by far more dark side knowledge than Dooku. And the same goes in terms of lightsaber skill. Even if Dooku is the kind of talent that you find once every hundred years among the lines of Jedi and Sith, Scourge has - statistically - killed half a dozen people like him.



Scourge managed to stalemate the Hero of Tython who is the lightsaber combatant of the era (on level with the second Wrath). The only being in the era that would probably be capable of matching those two in sheer lightsaber skill is Malgus, who's battlefield feats have never been replicated, according to none other than Sidious.

But even then, that assumption only goes so far, as you can solo Malgus easily on level 55, meaning that the post-Makeb protagonists are probably better in combat than the guy who Sidious considered to be second to none in that field.

Malgus was canonically fought as a level 50, so using the fact a level 55 can solo him as an argument is sort of lame.

I'd love to see where it says that they were "canonically" level 50.

Because when the game dropped, you couldn't go above level 50. Not that you couldn't solo him at 50 or that level isn't an arbitrary game mechanic, mind you.

You know what I meant. And for the record:

http://i21.servimg.com/u/f21/17/73/92/12/false_10.png

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
an arbitrary game mechanic

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malgus was canonically fought as a level 50, so using the fact a level 55 can solo him as an argument is sort of lame.

Nope. It is not, because "level" represents added experience and power. The fact that at level 50, you need multiple people to deal with Malgus, while at level 55, you can come back and kill him on your own, does fit quite nicely into that idea.

Removing "gaming terms" from the equation, one could say that, beyond Makeb, the protagonists have gained enough power / experience to be able to fight Malgus on equal terms, which they couldn't do earlier in their career. Don't see much of a problem with that.

No, that's stupid. Malgus died before Makeb. You can't "come back and kill him", he dies on Ilum at a certain point in the story, full stop.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, that's stupid. Malgus died before Makeb. You can't "come back and kill him", he dies on Ilum at a certain point in the story, full stop.

*sigh*

Yes, Neph. You are correct. FOTJ Luke Skywalker also can't go back and kick the ass of TPM Darth Maul. Yet, unlike that purely speculative idea, SW:TOR grants us the ability to actualy see what would happen if post-Makeb characters go and face Malgus on their own. They win.

The game offers an representation of Malgus in the game's world: He is clearly more powerful than any of the protagonists at the end of their class questline. Fact. And then the game moves that protagonists beyond that level, which Malgus had, to a point where they probably could defeat him if they were to face him in combat.

I don't see much problem with that, given that the characters obviously do become more powerful during the events on Makeb. And even more powerful in the events depicted in SoR. Unless you want to assume that Malgus is still more powerful than, let's say, the Hero of Tython post Makeb.

Going by that logic, the PCs can solo Revan as soon as they're done with Act II. That's some pretty shit logic.

@ Freshest and Neph.

And at some point the PC will be able to solo Vitiate

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Going by that logic, the PCs can solo Revan as soon as they're done with Act II. That's some pretty shit logic.

If there is a version of Revan that operates under the same game mechanics (SW:TOR RPG stats) at that point in the game and can be beaten, then, yes, they could do that. It would still be just that singular version of him that they could beat, while they would still be inable to solo his SoR version .

I don't know what your problem with that idea is.
Of course enemies that were, let's say, a challenge at the end of Act 1 of the class storyline, wouldn't be a problem for the same protagonist at the end of Act 2. In the same regard, Malgus as he is presented in the game would probably not be a challenge for a protag at the end of Makeb or SoR, just because of the additional stuff the heroes did between facing Malgus for the first time and the end of the respective storylines.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If a Jedi like Quinlan Vos can defeat Count Dooku, the latter is no longer special.


Oh Boy

Originally posted by Nai
If there is a version of Revan that operates under the same game mechanics (SW:TOR RPG stats) at that point in the game and can be beaten, then, yes, they could do that. It would still be just that singular version of him that they could beat, while they would still be inable to solo his SoR version .

I don't know what your problem with that idea is.
Of course enemies that were, let's say, a challenge at the end of Act 1 of the class storyline, wouldn't be a problem for the same protagonist at the end of Act 2. In the same regard, Malgus as he is presented in the game would probably not be a challenge for a protag at the end of Makeb or SoR, just because of the additional stuff the heroes did between facing Malgus for the first time and the end of the respective storylines.
Because level, as I've said a few times, is an arbitrary game mechanic. It has no basis in lore and only exists for abilities to be granted, part of the reason I like level sync exist is ending all of the arguments like this one. What is the difference between the random mobs on Corellia and the random mobs on Hoth? What is the difference between the Imperial Guards on Yavin and the ones on Dromund Kaas? Nothing. Because level isn't a measure of anything. Orgus Din is currently level 50 in this game. Why did he lose to a level 31 pleb like Angral then, several times I might add? I'm guessing that it might have something to do with level not actually existing in game, but I could be wrong.

Struggling to understand why this is so difficult to grasp. Darth Malgus' Ilum arc takes place after the HoT killed the Voice of the Emperor. Canonically it is post-act III HoT.

I'm liking this civil war. Keep it up, peons.

Dooku can't beat hundreds of fodder jedi and sith over the course of centuries, Scourge kills him.

Scourge can feed off emotions too, so if you want to beat him, it will only make him stronger. It's basically impossible. Kind of like Mace Windu, only better because the Emperor is the one who gave him the ability.

No he isn't.

The Emperor gives us everything. Though that's definitely the only fault in what I just said.

Nai, so Revan >>>>> HK-47 >>>>>>>>>>>> HK-47 >>>> Revan >>>> HK-47?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because level, as I've said a few times, is an arbitrary game mechanic. It has no basis in lore and only exists for abilities to be granted, part of the reason I like level sync exist is ending all of the arguments like this one.


It is not arbitrary in case of the player characters because it "grows" with a passing of the storyline or a "growth" in other kind of challenges (e.g. beating "higher level" mobs). At level 2 the protagonist is more experienced / skilled than at level 1. All the things ingame just represent that gain of experience (e.g. better force abilities / lightsaber attacks).

So if the level 50 protagonist struggles with something, it stands to reason that the level 55 (aka "more experienced and more powerful" protagonist wouldn't struggle as much, while the level 60 protagonist ("even more powerful and experienced" would maybe see it as a piece of cake.

Of course, the "levels" themselves are assigned in an arbitrary fashion. They still represent a certain amount of skill and experience within the game. The question is, whether you see them as a legit representation. E.g.: Do you think that the experience on Makeb (storywise) is accurately represented by the additional levels gained .

The point here is, that they obviously thought Malgus would be accurately represented by making him a challenge for X people on level 50. Now that is were he stays because, as far as the storyline is concerned, he died at that particular state-of-being. But the protagonists evolved. So is it reasonable to assume that post-Makeb protagonists can beat that Malgus? I don't see why they shouldn't be, as they - obviously - grow more powerful during the time (years?) that pass between the rise of the False Emperor and the end of the events on Makeb.

Essentially, you're not criticizing that "level" is something arbitrary assigned to characters. You're feeling that it doesn't accurately represents the storyline development / character history of figures involved. Did I get that right?



Yeah. What is the difference between them? Can it be, that the mobs you face on Hoth have grown up in a rougher enviroment than those on Tatooine? Are the Imperial Guard on Yavin the top dogs of their organisation, because they have managed to survive so far? Can a Massassi Warrior kick the living crap out of a Wampa?

To be honest: I don't know. But I don't have much reason to argue here either, because there is no "development" (aka "change of level" happening to those creatures. Of course, it is kind of laughable to argue, that the level 56 Orobird would totally destroy Darth Thanaton in combat, because of level. Saying the same about the level 56 Darth Nox would be a different matter.



And I thought, Orgus Din was pretty much dead in this game.
But again: My original statement was made in reference to player characters and not to NPCs and in that particular case, it's quite laughable to put Din in as a level 50 NPC when you know, that he is going to be defeated by a lower level NPC anyway.

Originally posted by Nai

This is why I tell you, that I don't see much reason for a win of Dooku against Scourge, given the latter one personally killed more than a thousand people considered "too ambigious" or "too powerful" by Vitiate.


Sidious thought Ventress was growing too powerful, and wanted Dooku to eliminate her. It turns out that Dooku is far more powerful than Ventress, and could kill her casually. Scourge is doing something like that a thousand times. How is that impressive? At some point repetition becomes meaningless.

Scourge everytime, good fight.

Novel Scourge demonstrated prowess a level beneath Darth Maul. By SWTOR, he should reach beyond Dooku level, but certainly not Vader level.