High-Herald Title Fight: leonidas vs "Id"

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leonidas: Opening Post

"Id": Opening Post

*Some of the code in your OP wasn't quotable, so I had to modify it accordingly.

*Match concludes December 1, 2015 @ 1:18pm (MST)

Good luck to both contestants. thumb up


so, let's take a look at what there is to see, da?

id's plan:

wellllll.... i think not. big grin

there are more than a few problems with this particular approach. the first one revolves around id's initial assumption that i would simply stand in front of him and trust my shields/armor. do you KNOW how strong tony is?? damn. my shields ARE strong. coupled with the armor, i've little doubt i could resist a direct pummeling--at least for long enough to marshal together a stronger defense.

but.... i didn't do that. using my own perceptual abilities i vanish in the first instant of the battle via teleport, then i go ahead and cloak myself as previously shown. at this point, he is lost. for all his hyper PHYSICAL senses, i'm not cloaked PHYSICALLY. and he has nothing in his history that would indicate he could penetrate my PSI CLOAK.

in fact, there are indications that the exact OPPOSITE is likely true:



that can be interpreted in a couple ways: either he can't because qubit has shielded himself with some sort of tech inhibitor, or he can't because he literally has no tp powers. whichever way you see it, it is NOT good for id. no if he can't overcome qubit's tp inhibitor (qubit would have precious little experience with uber psi characters, so really, how great could his inhibitor be assumed to be? all it had to block was some no-named psi named burrows) he would have, LITERALLY, a 0.0% chance to get into my omega level mind.

and of course, if he HAS no tp, well, he's REALLY screwed....

as for OTHER problems with his plan:

(1) he wants to use INERTIAL DAMPENING.

PROBLEM? based on the scan, it would appear that he needs to be in contact to rob something of its inertia. even if i WAS standing in front of him, he couldn't make contact through my shields, and a tk shield wouldn't necessarily have inertia as it is a non-physical construct.... to assume he could use this power at a distance would be a faulty assumption.

(2) he wants to MAUL ME:

PROBLEM? a neat idea, except for the tiny issue that i'm not there and he can't find me....


PROBLEM? while i love the enthusiasm, i'm again, not there and he can't find me. there's also the fact that QUBIT knew how to work with bette's powers to make a black hole, not tony.... and he needed bette's BULLET to create one, AND he even had to make adjustments to it to ALLOW it to take the form of a black hole. ALL of that was only possible because of QUBIT. there is not even CLOSE to enough proof to suppose tony, on his own, could just whip up a black hole....

in effect, all of tony's superior physical and energy attacks are rendered useless in this match. even making an attempt to use his new QUANTUM BASED ABILITY would be useless as he has no idea where i am. instead, he expends all his powers on uber-level illusions while i pillage his memory, safely cloaked, and force him to relive his entrapment at the end of time. it would only take a moment, it's a prison he cannot escape, it's an attack for which he has no defense.





is tony faster than i am? yes. be stupid to deny it. however, nate is NOT slow, as i already illustrated. does he have a ton of speed feats? no, not really, but he does have thought-speed reaction time as shown above, even BEFORE he evolved into the shaman. here he easily bends and redirects bullets away from him after they are fired:


and how fast ARE his thoughts: they can cover GALACTIC DISTANCES in an instant, as shown here when he communicates through a HOLOGRAM to the REAL majestrix, "safe" on her home world:




so, again, he is not slow by any measure--and his thoughts are nearly indescribably fast. coupled with the perceptual advantage that allows him to LITERALLY break time down into the tiniest imaginable increments and SEE these increments, he would absolutely have time to react and then ACT before tony gets to him. his precog would help as well.

and let's not forget--tony is NOT blitzing me.

instead he is attempting the VERY RISKY gambit of negating my inertia. again, in the single instance that ability was demonstrated, he was in direct contact with the object.

jumping to the conclusion that he could negate inertia at a distance is a logical fallacy.

so, while he tries, and fails, to steal my inertia, i have plenty of time to port out of the way. as for why he gets hit by ares and venom? well, it IS a comic, he IS a hero and they ARE villains. ask superman or flash why THEY get hit.... that's not a great line of argument i'm afraid...


no expression not much to really say about this one. the ability is so esoteric and vaguely described, as to be effectively useless in a battle scenario. in the scans he seems to have lead the eleos to a point in his OWN history that he wanted them to see, but....that doesn't mean, in any way at all, that he can somehow....control time?? or even perception...?? confused that scenario was so specific (he was IN the time stream, examining his OWN history) and so ill-defined that drawing conclusions from it, and extrapolating its battle usefulness is impossible, and as such, the whole idea should likely just be dismissed. i don't even know what it would do in a battle....


ok, i'll not bother refuting tony's PHYSICAL senses. they are very good. but they don't matter in this match, at all. i am NOT hiding from him PHYSICALLY. as such, even things like atomic vision won't matter here. even this scan doesn't help:



a telepathic cloak has no "atomic structure", at least not in any provable way. the purpose is to direct all physical senses AROUND its presence. of course it shields against psi powered senses as well, as we saw earlier when he hid from the very powerful EXODUS. in any event, i wouldn't be the first to prove able to hide from him. he couldn't see inside this alien ship for example:


and here, qubit actually cloaked his entire HEADQUARTERS from tony for a period of weeks with a determined tony constantly searching for it:



even when he KNEW where to look he couldn't see it. rather he had to follow the sound of the signal to get there! so yes, it is absolutely possible to hide/cloak to the extent that a herald can't sense you....

and judges, don't forget: i only need moments to touch his mind and find the necessary memories to take him down for good.

also important to recall? my ILLUSIONS. once i teleport, tony wouldn't even be looking for me initially. he'd be far too busy dealing with the illusions i leave in my place. the illusions would ensure i have the very small amount of time i'd need to locate those memories of his that i'm looking for....

as far as nate exuding energy that tony can sense:


they didn't recognize his energy signature until AFTER he dropped his guard. all those tp's present and they couldn't detect his energy until he LET them. that scan only further SUPPORTS nate's ability to mask his power.... thumb up

as far as this bit of strawman:


lol nate was shielding them in an effort to keep the monster out, not cloaking them to hide them. the thing already knew where they were and was hunting them long before nate arrived, having already killed one of the telepaths. it was also coming at them from a different UNIVERSE. iow--that scene has no bearing at all on...anything as regards this match.

and lastly.....


i confess to being impressed by id's attempts at countering my attack. i didn't know just how he was gonna approach it. he did well actually--just not quite good enough.

somehow getting into gazer's mind (whose power was pretty small-fry) is....significantly different from trying to keep out someone who can stretch his power ACROSS THE MULTIVERSE to find a few specific minds....




i mean, seriously? she had scattered her mind across the muthaphukcing MULTIVERSE and nate...collected all the facets and brought them together. that really is a near-cosmic type feat...

and here nate actually reads the mind of all the telepaths in the room i showed above--and they had shielded themselves!


"whoop-de-doo, leo!" you say, "they were probably low level chumps!"



powerful enough collectively to travel the multiverse and the timestream! that is DAMN impressive. they were powerful, experienced AND shielded, and nate effortlessly touched their minds.

assuming tony has some measure of tp in the true sense, it wouldn't matter in the least. to someone of nate's level and experience, his mind would be an open book with extra large font.

the eleos: the scans are kinda cool i guess, but--like so much related to tony--we really don't know just how capable they are. i mean here nate reads the mind of a GREAT BEAST:


i've already shown him getting into the higher being and world breaker, QABIRI's mind. in the past, we've seen xavier phukc with GALACTUS's mind:


and nate is even stronger than charles:


so, again, though the eleos feat is sorta cool, it might simply reflect the fact that eleos can't get into the heads of other eleos. we really have no idea how impressive, or irrelevant, that scene is.

what we DO know: nate has feats that are FAR greater and FAR more concrete. while tony fiddles with my illusions, nate scans his mind, finds the memory of his entrapment, and forces him to relive it, forever. (i noticed too that he still mentioned the black hole again. that was sufficiently debunked in my initial post, but didn't want anyone thinking i didn't attend to it.)


let's say despite the overwhelming evidence in support of the fact that nate CAN get into tony's head, you STILL don't believe it. as soon as nate sensed the resistance, he could simply do this:




in those scans, nate DRAINED THE ENTIRE GROUP OF THEIR PSIONIC ENERGY. and he did it easily and quickly. of course, as we all know by now, tony's powers are ALL psionically based:


so, while the trap using his own memories is more elegant, it is far from my only move in this match. i could always use the moves in combo if needed--if i sense his mind is resisting, i could drain and weaken him THEN find the memories i want and end this thing. or i just KEEP draining him until there is nothing left.

decisions, decisions....


my perceptions (breaking time down, seeing the immediate future) and my own speed, coupled with his decision NOT to blitz at the start, give me MORE than sufficient time to teleport and cloak, leaving illusions behind in my place.

illusions set, my superior psi powers let me touch his mind, nearly instantly understand his history, find memories to use against him, and trap him in them. if he resists, i drain his psionic power to weaken him, or i drain him dry. his senses and ill-defined powers are not enough to overcome my concrete, proven levels of power.


created to destroy WORLDS. not interested in worlds--just gonna destroy plutonian. smile



so, the last post. let's look at id's post then go over some of the reasons this match belongs to nate.


as i said, i don't think it's conceding anything at all to say plutonian is the stronger. that is a FAR cry from conceding that nate is weak. it wouldn't come to this, but just to show off a bit.... id had thought that i might armor up for this battle. it wouldn't have been a bad option. encasing himself in tk armor allowed him to do THIS to the hulk:



and how strong was the armor?


he remained in that giant thanosi's grip for SEVERAL pages before the armor finally started to give way. and while yes, it wasn't thanos, that thanosi WAS a good deal stronger than the hulk...

and of course, all that was BEFORE he came into his true power as a shaman.


beyond just my ability to temporarily match him in h2h (or at least not get killed outright), i could always just AVOID him by going intangible:



he has no proof he could hit me, and if he tried some energy whammy to make me solid, that would fall under matter manip on an opponent. that means i could likely STAY intangible and simply mind phuck him at my leisure while he is unable to do anything at all about it.....


id's been talking up tony quite a bit. it's because he needs you to believe the hype, to assume potential=proof. things like saying he can "do anything" don't really fly though, not in this type of match. we know tony developed some new skills, but those skills were only very briefly explored by tony, so to assume he can do MORE than was shown, is, again, a faulty assumption.

but, just because i don't want tony hogging the spotlight again, here are just a couple examples of what nate himself is capable of. first, meet qabiri. i mentioned him earlier--he was the one nate was toying with using his illusions. anyway, qabiri is a planet destroyer--an effortless planet destroyer as shown here:




here is what he did to that alternate earth thor:


he died just hitting qabiri's shield, no expression

here's what happened when he met nate:




now, it's true that later on, in their next battle, qabiri proved to be the more powerful, (nate survived being blasted from orbit to earth in the battle) it still goes to show nate is a true force. here, an alternate jean asks him to destroy...ASIA!



now before id brings it up--that was an alternate nate--a WEAKER version. here we see the real nate perform a similar feat of power against jean, who, at one point, was considerably more powerful than nate was and she'd already killed dozens of alternate nates:




this is what she had him do earlier (before he became the shaman)--in his sleep!



nate, literally without effort, destroyed that large city....

i showed you before that nate was created to DESTROY WORLDS--that was NOT hyperbole.

so, as you can see, nate is NOT short on power himself....


no misdirection intended, at all. again, we only saw tony use this power once and...he was in contact. he was never shown experimenting with the power again, so we can't just assume he was an expert at it, unlike nate, who has read the minds of people around the world and even found minds scattered across the muthaphukcing multiverse!!1! lol he's done a WHOLE lot more than just bring memories to the forefront--he has literally DISINTEGRATED high order telepaths simultaneously ACROSS A CITY! in nate's case, we have a definite frame of reference from whence to work, so the assumption that he can perform his PSYCHOSOMATIC ATTACK from a distance is a LOGICAL EXTENSION of his demonstrated abilities.

tony HAS no such frame of reference. no

anyway, as i said, even IF we assume he can cancel my inertia somehow, would that extend to freezing my mind, like being frozen in time? it would need to, or i could still teleport outside his range and my attack would proceed as normal. though there is no logical reason to think he could cancel my inertia at a distance, it doesn't matter if he does because there is certainly no proof the attack would prevent me from thinking.


id is saying tony can pull this off because he SAW the memories in qubit's head so automatically has the knowledge qubit does.


the memories were "BLURRY", some clear, some "FAST FADING". and while he saw qubit learning to use bette's powers, there is no indication that TONY now has that info. by that logic, tony should have been able to perform all of qubit's plan WITHOUT QUBIT. but he couldn't. he admitted that he saw the plan, but that was it. we know some memories were blurred so he was NOT able to learn everything.

blurred memories, and needing qubit's help and guidance=tony couldn't do what qubit could. and based on that fact, we absolutely can NOT assume tony has the knowledge needed to create his own black hole..... not without something FAR more substantial.


id is right, his powers and senses DID evolve. but how much? could he now perceive qubit's HQ? see through the ship? shrug

and THAT is the fundamental problem with choosing plutonian in this type of match. we really have no true idea of just how much he DID evolve, or what he is ACTUALLY capable of. assumptions, 'potential', these things can't count for much in a match like this. nate is a proven powerhouse, with quantifiable feats. tony's evolved powers were shown in such a limited light it is impossible to accurately infer from them their limits. he was also still learning--meaning he didn't have full control of these abilities yet. making it even HARDER to extrapolate limits.... all these unknowns against a proven force like nate? erm

as far as his finding me: maybe he could, eventually--but he keeps forgetting the illusions. they would absolutely detain him (as they had qabiri chasing his tail) for a few seconds while i rummaged his thoughts and found the necessary memories to finish him off. with the illusions attacking him, he WOULD NOT BE LOOKING FOR ME--at least not initially. so whether he could or couldn't find me is irrelevant. it would take seconds to find the memories i need and end the fight psychosomatically.

his showing against his eleos parents isn't nearly enough to assume i couldn't get into his mind. their own abilities were almost wholly unknown....

these next couple scans are really important--they show that (a) tony really could NOT get all the info he needed from qubit's head, making it even MORE difficult to believe he might know how to make a black hole...., and (b) it shows that, despite his evolution, he was NOT invulnerable, and he COULD be lied to:



clearly, despite his evolution, he DOES have weaknesses and his 'thought reading' DOES have definite limits. iow--no, the big man is not invulnerable. he CAN bleed....



basically is comes down to how much credence you want to give to the idea that tony can do "anything". do we then assume he can take out thanos? odin? where do the assumptions end?

i've shown how powerful nate is, how powerful his mind is. my attack is as simple as it gets--port, illusions, mind read and take him out with his own memories. no massive display of power needed. but i COULD go toe-to-toe if needed. or i could simply drain him of his power as i showed in the second post--a deadly attack given he is a PSIONIC being....

and here is one more option: this was what happened when a young nate confronted an alternate (yet fully powered) magneto (the same mags who destroyed APOCALYPSE):


nate ran into him and did THIS:


just...shut off his powers. simple as. just another possible avenue to pursue...

it really boils down to the fact that nate is just too much of a PROVEN beast for tony to 'assume' his way past in this match. as cool as tony is, in this match, there can only be one real choice:


thanks to id for agreeing to this little showcase, and to the judges for reading along. thumb up


The match has concluded. I will PM the judges now.

Please remember to send me your verdicts when complete. Once all rulings have been submitted, I will post them here.

I have received rulings from LordofBrooklyn, and Prof. T.C McAbe.

DarkSaint85, Decter, and Smurph all said their rulings will be submitted within the next few days. I'm hoping to post them by this weekend.

Can we get on with the voting already ? I grow bored of waiting.

Still waiting on DS, Decter, and Smurph.

5 judges? sweet. thumb up

Nice. And Galan has done an excellent job running the show. thumb up

I've read through this match twice already . VERY entertaining read.

DarkSaint has submitted his verdict. Just waiting for Smurph and Decter.

Okay, Decter just submitted his verdict. While I would have liked to post Smurph's write-up as well, it ultimately wouldn't have changed the outcome.

The Verdicts (Parts 1-2):

The Verdicts (Parts 3-4):

The winner, with a total of 3 votes to 1, is "Id". Huge props to both contestants. This was a fantastic BZ. thumb up

*And a special thanks to all judges who participated. Very appreciated. thumb up

God dammit, I just finished my Law paper and was in the middle of finishing this post. Sorry Galan.

Here goes anyways:

Smurph's (late) judgement:

Leo wins my vote.

I went back and forth over this repeatedly, and ultimately I think that this match came down to a dice roll with initial battle plans that favour Leo, which is almost silly given that there was zero prep time, and Plutonian is insanely faster. Still, Id's opening gambit relied on a move that, in its only appearance, took significant seconds to pull off. And while I think it's probably true that inertial negation would take much less time to apply to Nate Grey, it's not like we've seen Plutonian apply the maneuver in battle.

So, as a judge, I can't put faith in Id's conclusion here:

If we had seen Plutonian negate the inertia of an opponent that had precise control over their own physics (see: Nate Grey), then this would be a different story. As it is, I'm not sure to interpret the feat as a sort of Flash-style speed steal, or a localized time stop, or... comic book physics, man.

So, with all that said, I think that X-Man would successfully teleport and cloak.

Which brings me to the telepathy issue:

I think Id's defense was well argued, but based on insubstantial evidence. Basically, again, I think that while the Eleos' dialogue hints at an impressive level of mental defense, it's ultimately too nuanced to draw the conclusion that Id wants. Telepathy in comics is so versatile that I can't know, without proof, that Plutonian's mental defense isn't particular to Eleos, or particular to mind reading.

Plutonian himself demonstrated that, even against a character with intentional mental blocks, it was possible to find a loophole by accessing their hypothalamus. Nate Grey is the poster child for versatile telepathic attacks, and Plutonian being immune to mind reading doesn't defend him against having his senses shut off, or being forced to relive memories psychosomatically.

This was nearly a coin toss. Id would have won my vote with a little more emphasis on Plutonian's edges that were harder for Leo to cast doubt on: a basic speedblitz at the beginning of the battle may have led to an easy victory.

EDIT: Eleos, not Elios.

Thanks for the response, Smurph. thumb up

The final tally:
leonidas=2 votes.
"Id"=3 votes.


And thanks again to all who participated. clapclap

thanks gents. figured it to be an uphill battle but i like nate, so what can i say. good job id. tony is a beast, no doubt.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Good job guys, both of you and grats Id and thanks for the bribe :]

Oh and thanks Galan for hosting.

Thanks Guys and Thank you Leo.

An oversight that many members are not aware of, are Plutonian's mental defences.

And despite the fact, Leo still made it a close fight.

Yo Adrian, I did it!

Originally posted by "Id"
Thanks Guys and Thank you Leo.

An oversight that many members are not aware of, are Plutonian's mental defences.

And despite the fact, Leo still made it a close fight.

Yo Adrian, I did it!

And now I present to you KMC's High Herald world championship belt. Congrats champ.

Have your Sig guy make an image of it.

Originally posted by Facee
And now I present to you KMC's High Herald world championship belt. Congrats champ.

Have your Sig guy make an image of it.

You have NO authority here you ugly animal!!!


Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You have NO authority here you ugly animal!!!



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