Rebels' Empire vs. TCW's Seps

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The_Tempest
Which faction has been the more effective and more entertaining baddies? Consider each from faceless mook to vaunted leadership and its highest and lowest moments.

****Each faction as it is portrayed in its parent series and the series' canon tie-in works.

Beniboybling
mmm

I feel as if droid armies have posed more of threat to protags that the Stormtroopers, B1s and B2s in sheer overwhelming numbers, Droidekas frequently pin Jedi down and more deadly models like Magnaguards and Commando droids often pose a real challenge. Stormtroopers seem generally incompetent and quickly overwhelmed however.

A step up from that the droid commanders > Imperial commanders. We see a tactical commander outsmart and almost defeat Kenobi in Liberty on Ryloth, and guys like Admiral Trench and General Kalani are just as formidable as whatever that guy from Imperial Intelligence is called.

A step up from that, Ventress, Dooku and Sidious put the Inquisitors to shame. Even Grievous is more badass and more effective than them.

TCW wins imo.

Zenwolf
This isn't really fair given that as of Rebels there isn't really a war going on, so we haven't really seen much of the Empire at all...as all they are doing is fighting a Rebel Cell which is surrounding the main characters.

So of course the Seps look better, because they are engaged in a full war here where either sides can have problems and death. With Rebels....that isn't so yet until the Rebellion is fully there which I don't really expect to come around until like near the end of the series.

So the Empire is gonna look much worse, because they don't have anything other than going against the main cast, of course they are going to lose the majority of the time. There isn't some huge war for them to fully go and start doing actual fighting yet.

ares834
Originally posted by Beniboybling
A step up from that, Ventress, Dooku and Sidious put the Inquisitors to shame. Even Grievous is more badass and more effective than them.

I feel the exact opposite. Vader, Tarkin, and yes even the GI were far more effective and threatening villains than Ventress, Dooku, or Grievous ever were in TCW.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
I feel the exact opposite. Vader, Tarkin, and yes even the GI were far more effective and threatening villains than Ventress, Dooku, or Grievous ever were in TCW. Due to the weak resistance they were up against. Dooku and the separatist army would steamroll the rebels. The mere fact that the rebels did prevail over the galactic army despite being both numerically and firepower wise outgunned is a testament to the arrogance of the galactic empire that came from the emperor all the way down through the ranks.

ares834
What's your point there? Of course this is all relative to the protagonists.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
What's your point there? Of course this is all relative to the protagonists. That the Separatists maul them. Stormtroopers of the galactic empire are the worst. The droids while pathetic hammered the Jedi in the attack on geonosis. I can only imagine how many Stormtroopers the Jedi group of that size would rip through.

ares834
So your point is irrelevant to the thread. This thread is about which are the more effective and entertaining villains not which are more powerful.

Zenwolf
Hmm...actually I did overlook the OP, but still the CIS has more exposure for now. Though I see the Inquisitors becoming something more entertaining and the like. Still as noted, this isn't really a fair comparison as far effectiveness given we don't see the whole Empire compared to the CIS in full war engagements.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
So your point is irrelevant to the thread. This thread is about which are the more effective and entertaining villains not which are more powerful.

I think you have it flipped: The Empire is definitely more powerful than the Separatists. But whether they're as effective or entertaining from a story perspective is what's debatable.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hmm...actually I did overlook the OP, but still the CIS has more exposure for now. Though I see the Inquisitors becoming something more entertaining and the like. Still as noted, this isn't really a fair comparison as far effectiveness given we don't see the whole Empire compared to the CIS in full war engagements.

Why wouldn't it be a fair comparison? It's not about which is more effective in a full war situation. It's about which is more effective and entertaining narratively. Because while you may argue that Rebels has given the Empire less opportunity to shine, you could also make the argument it's given it less opportunity to screw up.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Empire is definitely more powerful than the Separatists.

No doubt. I simply wasn't entertaining the argument and letting Quan derail another thread with his nonsense.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why wouldn't it be a fair comparison? It's not about which is more effective in a full war situation. It's about which is more effective and entertaining narratively. Because while you may argue that Rebels has given the Empire less opportunity to shine, you could also make the argument it's given it less opportunity to screw up.

Well that's kinda hard when the central characters can't be in any sort of danger. I mean at least with TCW, you had Clones and Jedi dying...heck has anyone on the Rebels side even died? I literally only recall those pilots that were taken out by Vader and that transport ship I guess.

Narratively, Dave is making the Empire look like a bunch of morons that they can't seem to deal with a Rebel Cell. Which then begs the question of how the Empire during the OT was making them retreat all throughout.

They STILL are using codes from the CLONE WARS. Now how stupid is that from a narrative perspective?

I don't even know what Empire this is, because compared to the OT and comics...it might as well be a completely different one.

ares834
The villains being bumbling morons is just what happens in a cartoon aimed at kids. It sucks, but there it is. At least with Rebels it's new characters like Kallus rather than an established bad ass like Grievous.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
The villains being bumbling morons is just what happens in a cartoon aimed at kids. It sucks, but there it is. At least with Rebels its new characters like Kallus rather than an established bad ass like Grievous.

I guess and yeah the new characters introduced are pretty good, although I really only like Kanan, Kallus and the GI. Everyone else I'm just kinda....meh on.

ares834
No love for Chopper. stick out tongue

I'm surprised you like Kallus given how incompetent he is. I enjoy him as well though.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well that's kinda hard when the central characters can't be in any sort of danger. I mean at least with TCW, you had Clones and Jedi dying...heck has anyone on the Rebels side even died? I literally only recall those pilots that were taken out by Vader and that transport ship I guess.

Narratively, Dave is making the Empire look like a bunch of morons that they can't seem to deal with a Rebel Cell. Which then begs the question of how the Empire during the OT was making them retreat all throughout.

They STILL are using codes from the CLONE WARS. Now how stupid is that from a narrative perspective?

I don't even know what Empire this is, because compared to the OT and comics...it might as well be a completely different one.

I don't disagree. That sounds like a lot of good reasons to believe the Empire isn't as entertaining or effective.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
The villains being bumbling morons is just what happens in a cartoon aimed at kids. It sucks, but there it is. At least with Rebels it's new characters like Kallus rather than an established bad ass like Grievous.

During the promotional blitz for the Inquisitor, the writers mentioned they were specifically trying to avoid the trope about the weekly-beaten bad guy.

I can't brush aside whatever failures are there simply because the writers elected to have a more juvenile approach to storytelling, especially when they're obviously aware of it.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
During the promotional blitz for the Inquisitor, the writers mentioned they were specifically trying to avoid the trope about the weekly-beaten bad guy.

I can't brush aside whatever failures are there simply because the writers elected to have a more juvenile approach to storytelling, especially when they're obviously aware of it.

The Inquisitor was never beaten though save for that final duel. Prior to that, every-time he showed up the Rebels were forced to retreat.

So with him at least, I felt the writers did a great job.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
No love for Chopper. stick out tongue

I'm surprised you like Kallus given how incompetent he is. I enjoy him as well though.

I never found him being incompetent really, he handled the AT-ATs well, he beat the snot out of Zeb, I think he did a few other things I can't remember. But I don't recall him being incompetent...but then again I don't rewatch old episodes so I may have missed something.

Chopper I think Rebels tries too hard on him tbh.

ares834
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I never found him being incompetent really, he handled the AT-ATs well, he beat the snot out of Zeb, I think he did a few other things I can't remember. But I don't recall him being incompetent...but then again I don't rewatch old episodes so I may have missed something.

Chopper I think Rebels tries too hard on him tbh.

I guess. I'm more referring to how it almost feels that he is defeated virtually every other episode.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
I guess. I'm more referring to how it almost feels that he is defeated virtually every other episode.

Ahh...well yeah there's that. Which is what as Tempest said, the writers going in the opposite direction of what they said before.

I like Rebels don't get me wrong, I hope the mid-season is fantastic...it's just...it's kinda hard to believe the Rebellion had so much trouble when the Empire just doesn't fit what the OT showed them as.

ares834
Oh, Kallus is full on cartoon villain. But then, I don't think the writers ever said they were going to make him otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they really only said that about Inqy (and Vader).

The_Tempest
I think my issue with Rebels is that it shouldn't take a Vader or Tarkin to make the Empire formidable.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
So your point is irrelevant to the thread. This thread is about which are the more effective and entertaining villains not which are more powerful. Separitists as it usually goes hand in hand. Vader also showed up and lost to a bunch of ragtag rebels. That isn't very effective now is it ?

Zenwolf
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I think my issue with Rebels is that it shouldn't take a Vader or Tarkin to make the Empire formidable.

This, otherwise...why have an Empire at all?

Also Ares I think so...but I can't find the quote now.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Zenwolf
This, otherwise...why have an Empire at all?

Also Ares I think so...but I can't find the quote now.

Precisely. The lack of a challenging bad guy and the titular rebels being too inconsequential for the likes of Vader and Tarkin is precisely why I think TCW did it a lot better.

quanchi112
The empire obviously became complacent due to the weakness of those who opposed it. Palpatine scoffed at the mere notion that they posed a legitimate threat to his empire. This is something not new to human nature in general. This many years in power made them weaker IMO and less sharp. Palpatine took no chances with the Jedi and attacked them as shrewdly and without mercy ASAP. He didn't have the same ruthlessness to the rebels.

Zenwolf
It seemed pretty clear though regardless, Palps wanted them wiped out.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Precisely. The lack of a challenging bad guy and the titular rebels being too inconsequential for the likes of Vader and Tarkin is precisely why I think TCW did it a lot better.

You think the CIS was more formidable in TCW? Frankly, I'd completely disagree. Even with Dooku at the forefront I never found them threatening. And I'm unsure why you don't consider the Inquisitor a challenging bad guy when he spanked Kanan and Co.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Zenwolf
It seemed pretty clear though regardless, Palps wanted them wiped out. Who the rebels or the Jedi ? He was far nastier when dealing with the Jedi than the rebels.

The_Tempest
I think the CIS has been by and large far more formidable than the Empire in Rebels, yeah. Zenwolf touched on some examples... And Dooku has spanked greater than Kanan and Ezra.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
You think the CIS was more formidable in TCW? Frankly, I'd completely disagree. Even with Dooku at the forefront I never found them threatening. And I'm unsure why you don't consider the Inquisitor a challenging bad guy when he spanked Kanan and Co.

The Inquisitor was challenging sure, but it takes more than just mere individuals to make an Empire threatening.

I'm probably too deeply rooted in the old Legends where every single part of the GE was effective. From the ground troops, to the pilots, to the officers all the way up to the SpecForce and Force Wielders.

I hope this new EU does the same, I really do. But Rebels, I don't feel that much, the individuals sure but as a whole no. But I get it, it's a show aimed at kids so I can give some leeway to it.

The_Tempest
I'm thinking of random examples: the Malevolence decimating fleets in season 1, the commando droids wreaking havoc regularly, droids laying waste to the Republic garrison on Scipio, Grievous's invasion of Kamino, droids boarding the Republic shuttle spiriting away Fives and gunning down the opposition, Mar Tuuk defeating Anakin in the invasion of Ryloth, etc.

Plenty of badass moments from the Separatists where they defeat or challenge a far greater enemy than the Empire is up against.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm thinking of random examples: the Malevolence decimating fleets in season 1, the commando droids wreaking havoc regularly, droids laying waste to the Republic garrison on Scipio, Grievous's invasion of Kamino, droids boarding the Republic shuttle spiriting away Fives and gunning down the opposition, Mar Tuuk defeating Anakin in the invasion of Ryloth, etc.

Plenty of badass moments from the Separatists where they defeat or challenge a far greater enemy than the Empire is up against. thumb up

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I think the CIS has been by and large far more formidable than the Empire in Rebels, yeah. Zenwolf touched on some examples...

That it's a full scale war? The only threatening thing from the basic troops of the CIS is there sheer numbers something we know the Empire has as well. Regardless, neither the CIS or the Empire seem to have truly formidable troops.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Dooku has spanked greater than Kanan and Ezra.

Of course he has. But you claimed that you want more threatening figures from the Empire besides the top dogs. So I brought up the Grand Inquisitor because he is a villain created by the show that served as a "challenging bad guy" for the Rebels. And he is every bit as challenging for the Rebels as Dooku was for TCW crew.

The_Tempest
Yeah but you mentioned Dooku, so I thought you were comparing him to the Inquisitor. He'd eat Inky alive.

Nah, the commando droids, droidekas, and even super battle droids outperform stormtroopers. Go back and watch the first episode of the Order 66 arc: specifically where the super battle droids attack the fleeing Republic shuttle carrying Fives.

And the Empire deploys their far greater numbers against the Rebels all the time. The Seps still do it better, honestly.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm thinking of random examples: the Malevolence decimating fleets in season 1, the commando droids wreaking havoc regularly, droids laying waste to the Republic garrison on Scipio, Grievous's invasion of Kamino, droids boarding the Republic shuttle spiriting away Fives and gunning down the opposition, Mar Tuuk defeating Anakin in the invasion of Ryloth, etc.

Plenty of badass moments from the Separatists where they defeat or challenge a far greater enemy than the Empire is up against.

After a hundred episode sure, of course you are going to have more badass moments. And let's face it, the Empire in Rebels never had as bad a moment as this:

https://youtu.be/rvEK4--EpbQ?t=457

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah but you mentioned Dooku, so I thought you were comparing him to the Inquisitor. He'd eat Inky alive.

In a battle sure. But I'm unsure of such relevance here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, the commando droids, droidekas, and even super battle droids outperform stormtroopers. Go back and watch the first episode of the Order 66 arc: specifically where the super battle droids attack the fleeing Republic shuttle carrying Fives.

Sure they do. I've never said otherwise. But the bulk of the CIS's troops are B1 Battle droids who are far more incompetent than the Stormtroopers ever were.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
After a hundred episode sure, of course you are going to have more badass moments. And let's face it, the Empire in Rebels never had as bad a moment as this:

https://youtu.be/rvEK4--EpbQ?t=457

Like I said: more exposure also affords more opportunity to screw up.

That episode pit droids designed to be made cheaply and in mass numbers against the most powerful Jedi ever. Stormtroopers are still advertised as elite shock troops and can't manage no-name Jedi wannabes and a Mandalorian hipster.

But you said the CIS lacks formidable troops. They don't. Commando droids, super battle droids, and droidekas are all standard infantry to some extent. They're not the equivalent of even an Jnquisitor. And stormtroopers are still advertised as elite shock troops.

ares834
Even in the new canon? Stormtroopers being the elite Imperial troops rather than the standard has always been a ridiculous notion. Personally, I'd say it's a problem with the EU rather than Rebels.

And fair enough on the other types of droids. In that case, I misspoke earlier. Rather as a whole, I've never felt that the CIS infantry has been threatening.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
. Regardless, neither the CIS or the Empire seem to have truly formidable troops.

Which therein lies the problem for me...the CIS from the beginning with Episode 1 was all about overwhelming numbers, Episode 2 showed the same thing and TCW and so on.

The Empire...didn't come across that to me and given Troopers are humans compared to droids which are programmed with a specific set of directives. You'd think the elite Stormtroopers would show better given they have more freedom of thought, especially since in this new canon they are noted as elite shock troops like they were in Legends.

I kinda liked that the Storms are the elite Troopers and then they also had Army Troopers(who were terribly underrated and under utilized in Legends), made them separate from the other factions where they just had one troop set.

Of course Ares as you put, it's not really shown for them being elite troopers in Rebels. But in Legends, they most definitely were...so I hope the new EU does show this too.

The_Tempest
Yeah, their StarWars.com databank entry still describes them as elite shock troops.

The problem is that even if I concede that the B1 is as useless as the stormtrooper, the B1 was specifically designed to be the Zerg Rush for the Separatists. The stormtrooper was not designed to be such for the Empire. The Separatists bolster their ranks with more effective models and iterations. Even super battle droids outperform stormies.

The Empire would take the Seps to the curb IMO, but given the context of the story, I agree that the CIS is portrayed to be much more consistently formidable against a far more capable adversary than the stormtroopers have ever been.

TCW just does it a lot better.

ares834
Well, like I said, in that case I'd say the problem lies with other canon material rather than Rebels. In the films, what made the Empire truly threatening was their far greater numbers and more advanced tech.

The_Tempest
Nah, based on dialogue and performances in ANH and ESB, stormies were meant to be badass troops that the heroes only endured due to Plot Armor. The "Lolz stormies suck!" trope derives solely from literalists and revisionism. The same literalists and revisionists who really do believe Darth Vader is sluggishly slow and underpowered because of '70s stunt technology, choreography, and such.

Elements of canon are revamped all the time to better suit the story. That Rebels has clung to a silly notion of stormtrooper behavior is a colossal failure on the part of its writers.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ares834
Well, like I said, in that case I'd say the problem lies with other canon material rather than Rebels. In the films, what made the Empire truly threatening was their far greater numbers and more advanced tech.

They seemed pretty good in small numbers too. I mean 2 Scout Troopers essentially captured and sneaked up on Leia...well before Wicket got involved. They also staged an ambush on the Jawa sandcrawler, making it look like a Sand Person attack. The Scout Troopers during the bike chase gave an incredibly rough time against Luke and Leia, even knocking them both off their bikes.


Although to be fair Tempest, there have been some good showings in Rebels for Stormtroopers. Not many, but they are there.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, based on dialogue and performances in ANH and ESB, stormies were meant to be badass troops that the heroes only endured due to Plot Armor. The "Lolz stormies suck!" trope derives solely from literalists and revisionism. The same literalists and revisionists who really do believe Darth Vader is sluggishly slow and underpowered because of '70s stunt technology, choreography, and such.

Outside of the beginning of ANH, they aren't portrayed as particularly formidable. Yes, the heroes had plot armor but such an excuse could easily be given to heroes of Rebels as well.

Edit: Now I'd agree there is a bigger discrepancy between how Rebels and the films portray Stormies and how TCW and the films portray battledroids.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
Outside of the beginning of ANH, they aren't portrayed as particularly formidable. Yes, the heroes had plot armor but such an excuse could easily be given to heroes of Rebels as well.

Nah, all throughout ANH-ESB, stormies kicked ass. Even, as Zenwolf points out, in most of ROTJ they did their job extremely well. And the difference between Rebels' heroes and the OT's heroes is that the OT's heroes didn't treat stormies as jokes. Rebels' heroes literally scoff at them, treating them contemptuously.

ares834
When did they kickass in ANH and ESB (aside from them taking Tantive IV)? Sure, the take Echo Base in ESB but we never actually see this happen and I never got the sense this was due to anything other than far superior numbers.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by ares834
When did they kickass in ANH and ESB (aside from them taking Tantive IV)? Sure, the take Echo Base in ESB but we never actually see this happen and I never got the sense this was due to anything other than far superior numbers.

Taking the Tantive, forcing the heroes to flee the Death Star {even Obi-Wan does his best to avoid a pair of stormies rather than fight them outright... and this was on Vader & Tarkin's orders to let them escape(!)}. Stormies/TIE pilots then lay waste to the Rebel pilots' run on the Death Star. In ESB, they take Echo Base, they seize Cloud City. In ROTJ, the scout troopers give Luke and Leia hell, they get the drop on the Rebels and even cope with the Ewok interference until Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST.

Overwhelming numbers are an element of stormtrooper advantage. In the OT, they wield that advantage far more effectively. And nowhere do the heroes treat them as anything less than highly dangerous obstacles.

I'm not sure why you're defending their performance in Rebels and trying to undermine the stormies {quite frankly blowing their failures entirely out of proportion}. I use Vader as a parallel example: you and I both salivate at the new portrayal of Vader... which is quite frankly incongruous with how he's portrayed in the real-time choreography in the OT. So when it comes to Vader, you allow for modern interpretations to bend what we once saw. Why not just admit the Rebels have failed to apply this logic to stormtroopers, portray them terribly, and should find ways to make their central baddies more formidable?

BTW, I'm revisiting TCW's season 1 episode "Rookies" and the commando droids utterly shitstomp Rebels' stormtroopers as far as threat portrayals. Nowhere close to being in the same league.

Zenwolf
Eh Tempest got it. Although for the Obi-Wan, him being found would just cause a whole mess of problems, not that he couldn't take on 2 lone Stormtroopers. Luke and co weren't really forced to flee either considering they were gonna leave anyway, the Storms and TIE pilots were just putting on a show so they didn't go...

"Hey wait, did we just seriously walk out of a moon sized battle station that easy? I think something is wrong with that.."

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Eh Tempest got it. Although for the Obi-Wan, him being found would just cause a whole mess of problems, not that he couldn't take on 2 lone Stormtroopers.

I'm not suggesting that Obi-Wan couldn't take on two stormtroopers, I'm just saying he treats them with more respect and takes them more seriously than Kanan and Aladdin do. That goes a long way towards establishing them as credible threats.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not suggesting that Obi-Wan couldn't take on two stormtroopers, I'm just saying he treats them with more respect and takes them more seriously than Kanan and Aladdin do. That goes a long way towards establishing them as credible threats.

Ah point taken.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Taking the Tantive, forcing the heroes to flee the Death Star {even Obi-Wan does his best to avoid a pair of stormies rather than fight them outright... and this was on Vader & Tarkin's orders to let them escape(!)}. Stormies/TIE pilots then lay waste to the Rebel pilots' run on the Death Star. In ESB, they take Echo Base, they seize Cloud City. In ROTJ, the scout troopers give Luke and Leia hell, they get the drop on the Rebels and even cope with the Ewok interference until Chewbacca commandeers an AT-ST.

Most of those were do to a large number advantage far more so than in Rebels. On the Death Star there are hundreds of Stormtroopers of course they have to run. And I certainly wouldn't consider the Trench Run a good showing considering it's a few dozen Rebel ships vs a moon sized battle station.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not sure why you're defending their performance in Rebels and trying to undermine the stormies {quite frankly blowing their failures entirely out of proportion}. I use Vader as a parallel example: you and I both salivate at the new portrayal of Vader... which is quite frankly incongruous with how he's portrayed in the real-time choreography in the OT. So when it comes to Vader, you allow for modern interpretations to bend what we once saw. Why not just admit the Rebels have failed to apply this logic to stormtroopers, portray them terribly, and should find ways to make their central baddies more formidable?

It's nice that Vader get's bad ass feats, but I've actually said I'm not a fan of how ridiculously powerful he is now. I was initially hoping we wouldn't get these over-the-top feats again like we did in the EU. Good for vs battles though.

With that said, I'd be perfectly happy if we also got some very skilled Stormtroopers as well. I just don't generally care if they are incompetent or not. My problem is I don't think they should be an elite branch of the Imperial military rather I think they should be the Imperial military's ground forces.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
BTW, I'm revisiting TCW's season 1 episode "Rookies" and the commando droids utterly shitstomp Rebels' stormtroopers as far as threat portrayals. Nowhere close to being in the same league.

I won't disagree with you there. Though, it's probably the CIS at it's most threatening.

The_Tempest
Intriguing. I guess we look at things differently: weak bad guys make the story weaker. That's one of my biggest gripes when TCW failed. It's just that Rebels is a lot worse with it.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Intriguing. I guess we look at things differently: weak bad guys make the story weaker. That's one of my biggest gripes when TCW failed. It's just that Rebels is a lot worse with it. Couldn't agree more than with weaker bad guys make for a weaker story. If the heroes don't have to overcome overwhelming odds in this kind of genre it diminishes the story and the heroes.

That is why I firmly believe in establishing the First Order as menacing and its leaders such as Snoke and Kylo Ren as badasses.

The_Tempest
I don't think anyone really disagrees with the notion of the First Order being badass and its leadership formidable.

KingD19
When you go for quantity over quality in such large numbers as intergalactic standing armies, not everyone will be elite. That's why units like Vader's 501st and 1st Order are so badass especially in comparison to the rank and file.

Darth Thor
Well I don't usually talk s*** about Lucas (or Filoni), but I am getting a bit tired of them having to explain everything that happened in the OT. Things that were blatantly down to PIS and not the best choreography.

The stormtroopers being bad shots is one of those things. Ben clearly tells Luke in ANH that Imperial Stormtrooper shots are highly accurate. Now Filoni and crew have gone and made it "Canon" that they're bad shots, so Ben's line to Luke makes absolutely no sense, nor do numerous scenes in the OT.

The_Tempest
thumb up

DP gets it. It's textbook OT apologia at work. This shit was made in the '70s, which is why things looked slower, less agile, and generally archaic. But if you look at the shooting scripts and such, it reveals a whole nother world.

ares834
How is it OT apologia?

The_Tempest
Because to admit that such things are the product of relatively limited technology and choreography might be inexplicably interpreted as a shortcoming for the OT. We can't have that: the OT is perfect in all ways.

So we handwave it as deliberate, stylistic decisions that have no context for real world time. Stormtroopers suck because logically the Galaxy's evil superpower would want their elite troops to be shitty.

ares834
How does Stormtroopers being bad shots have anything to do with limited technology? They have bad aim so the heroes can survive (like many films). Yes, that's very deliberate.

The_Tempest
The extras were moving around and fighting in 1970s cheap plastic helmets and bodysuits. That obviously contributed.

Edit: that's why it's textbook OT apologia. The inability to kill the heroes doesn't mean that stormtroopers have to suck anymore than Vader's inability to defeat them means he sucks. thumb up

ares834
Except Vader isn't shooting at them and missing every shot.

Now if you want to chalk up the Stormies aim to PIS fair enough. But to pretend it's a limitation due to technology is silly. It's just bad guy aim like in most action films.

The_Tempest
Nah, I'm saying that the limited technology at the time helped contribute to the notion that stormies were clods. I'm not saying they would have shot the heroes down if they were wearing a bicycle helmet from 2015 vs one from 1977. I'm saying they would have still missed yet would have still appeared to be more competent or formidable if the choreography and technology had been up to par.

Zenwolf
Tbh the Storms have better aim than most other bad guys I've seen from that time era and their biggest instance of missing was explained and was actually logical if someone takes it into account. But of course a vast majority of people missed this direct context.

Death Star is the biggest instance as to why people think Storms suck...but they literally miss the point of why they were missing, it wasn't just because, there was a viable explanation for it that was stated directly in the film.

I mean the only other instance where you could probably see them shooting and chalk it up to PIS is on Bespin(though to me, I think Vader wanted them all captured considering the hyperdrive was disabled right when Han n co got there. But /shrug.)

Endor you had Storms make accurate shots, 1 of which was while he was driving one handed and had to divide his time between driving, aiming and shooting on a fast speeder bike. The other where 2 Scouts 'captured' Leia(the shots being a diversionary tactic while the other Scout sneaked upon her) and then the 2 shots on R2 and Leia at the Bunker.

Though Thor, I don't think Dave ever commented on Storms shooting ability. Plus I wouldn't take his words at face value, considering he's been contradicting against the evidence and himself.

ares834
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, I'm saying that the limited technology at the time helped contribute to the notion that stormies were clods. I'm not saying they would have shot the heroes down if they were wearing a bicycle helmet from 2015 vs one from 1977. I'm saying they would have still missed yet would have still appeared to be more competent or formidable if the choreography and technology had been up to par.

I don't see how.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf
The Scout Troopers during the bike chase gave an incredibly rough time against Luke and Leia, even knocking them both off their bikes.






I'm sure Filoni would put that down to Luke's lack of training sad

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I'm sure Filoni would put that down to Luke's lack of training sad

Lack of training....because it's not like before on Tatooine, where he was pretty much soloing Jabba's men and also defeating a Rancor without a lightsaber using just sheer ingenuity quickness.

It's also not like he wasn't fighting in this Rebellion or anything either gaining just general battle experience and learning more Jedi stuff as the comics are showing..suuure Luke lacks training....

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think anyone really disagrees with the notion of the First Order being badass and its leadership formidable. Moreso than Vader and Palpatine. Do you agree with that ?

quanchi112
Originally posted by ares834
Except Vader isn't shooting at them and missing every shot.

Now if you want to chalk up the Stormies aim to PIS fair enough. But to pretend it's a limitation due to technology is silly. It's just bad guy aim like in most action films. I agree with this. We have to look at how the heroes survive. What situations were they in ? We don't see them outwitting Vader left and right. We know the heroes will survive no matter how ridiculous but I will say that the rebels episode of Vader getting out piloted by the rebels after the duel escape did bring down his stock in my eyes. That also isn't due to limited technology.

The_Tempest
I don't agree that they necessarily will or have to be more powerful/dangerous than Palpatine.

KingD19
Vader didn't get out piloted. He wrecked an entire squadron without a scratch and got caught due to his own people's incompetence and the rebels smarts.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Lack of training....because it's not like before on Tatooine, where he was pretty much soloing Jabba's men and also defeating a Rancor without a lightsaber using just sheer ingenuity quickness.

It's also not like he wasn't fighting in this Rebellion or anything either gaining just general battle experience and learning more Jedi stuff as the comics are showing..suuure Luke lacks training....

Was joking dude.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Was joking dude.

No I know, that post was merely just for Dave if he tries using that argument.

Although tbh again, don't think Dave's word should be taken at face value or at least when it comes to things other than his own characters(and even then..), because he's already been contradicting to the evidence clearly shown.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't agree that they necessarily will or have to be more powerful/dangerous than Palpatine. I know. To me they don't need to make the new big bad in the same vein but he should most assuredly be a bigger deal IMO.

quanchi112
Originally posted by KingD19
Vader didn't get out piloted. He wrecked an entire squadron without a scratch and got caught due to his own people's incompetence and the rebels smarts. He was outsmarted in the end against their expert pilot. Vader is quite good against the no names though.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by quanchi112
I know. To me they don't need to make the new big bad in the same vein but he should most assuredly be a bigger deal IMO.

Nah. All the new Big Bad has to do is prove to be a worthy challenge for the new heroes. Doesn't mean he/she has to necessarily eclipse his or her predecessors. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on the nature of the story.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ares834
The villains being bumbling morons is just what happens in a cartoon aimed at kids. It sucks, but there it is. At least with Rebels it's new characters like Kallus rather than an established bad ass like Grievous. Just because it's aimed at kids doesn't mean they should dumb down the show, especially when they're aware of all the stupid cliches. Just look at ATLA. Aimed at kids, but the villains were fantastic. It being a kids show is just a poor excuse.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. All the new Big Bad has to do is prove to be a worthy challenge for the new heroes. Doesn't mean he/she has to necessarily eclipse his or her predecessors. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on the nature of the story. Well to me just as the starkiller will more than likely eclipse the Death Star the big bad should also follow suit. Snoke may or may not be this trilogy's big bad.

The_Tempest
The Big Bad of ANH was Tarkin, who used the Death Star to kill worlds. They followed it up with ESB, and Vader, which didn't feature anything that potent. Yet ESB still told a great story and ESB is Vader at his most villainous in the OT.

That's cool if you want Snoke to be > Palps, but he doesn't have to be to tell a good story or to command the Starkiller Base.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Big Bad of ANH was Tarkin, who used the Death Star to kill worlds. They followed it up with ESB, and Vader, which didn't feature anything that potent. Yet ESB still told a great story and ESB is Vader at his most villainous in the OT.

That's cool if you want Snoke to be > Palps, but he doesn't have to be to tell a good story or to command the Starkiller Base. That's why I said of the trilogy as Palpatine was the big bad of those three films. That's all subjective and in esb we found out Vader took orders from someone else.

I'm not even sure Snoke is the big bad but if he is I feel he should be more powerful IMO. He doesn't have to be the same kind of political manipulator but when it comes to personal power this is something I'd prefer.

The_Tempest
That's cool. I don't think he has to be. thumb up

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. All the new Big Bad has to do is prove to be a worthy challenge for the new heroes. Doesn't mean he/she has to necessarily eclipse his or her predecessors. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on the nature of the story.


thumb up Exactly. Like the Inquisitors in Rebels are threatening to Kanan and crew but wouldn't have been a problem for Anakin and Obi-Wan in TCW.

Likewise even some of the threats they faced in TCW wouldn't have been much of a problem for Yoda or Mace at the time, which is why those 2 were used sparingly.

The_Tempest
Exactly thumb up

BTW, I've been skimming through the first episode of the Citadel arc and, again, the Separatists are portrayed to be vastly more formidable against a vastly more capable enemy than the Empire has been against the titular rebels.

TCW had its shortcomings, but Rebels could learn a thing or two from it about beefing up the bad guy... as sad as that is.

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's cool. I don't think he has to be. thumb up Are you nervous that he might be ?

The_Tempest
Nah. You nervous that he won't?

quanchi112
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. You nervous that he won't? Nah. I'm not even sure he is this trilogy's big bad.

KingD19
Originally posted by quanchi112
He was outsmarted in the end against their expert pilot. Vader is quite good against the no names though.


What episode did you watch? Vader wasn't outsmarted, the ships commander was since he gave the command to activate the tractor beam. Vader had no way of knowing he was going to do that, and would have shot the Ghost down if the Commander hadn't been trying to get brownie points and f*cked up in the process.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by KingD19
What episode did you watch? Vader wasn't outsmarted, the ships commander was since he gave the command to activate the tractor beam. Vader had no way of knowing he was going to do that, and would have shot the Ghost down if the Commander hadn't been trying to get brownie points and f*cked up in the process.

Well Vader wanted them captured as he told the Commander, so the tractor beam was kind of the only way to capture them.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by ares834
I feel the exact opposite. Vader, Tarkin, and yes even the GI were far more effective and threatening villains than Ventress, Dooku, or Grievous ever were in TCW. Not really, Ventress, Dooku & Grievous achieved numerous sucesses throughout the Clone Wars, all Vader, Tarkin and GI have managed to achieve combined is drive a 5-man team of Rebels of Lothal. Though granted Vader soloed a fleet, but he fails to carry the group I feel.

But I agree with Wolf here, plot armor is a factor in there failures. There isn't enough fodder for them to stomp, and they can't pull the "Palpy always wins" card. (Although it's also just poor writing) Which is another factor tbh, Palpy always wins. smokin'

ares834
Those three also have less losses combined than any single of the Separatist villains you mentioned. More importantly, none of them have any terribly embarrassing losses, like Dooku getting captured by pirates or Grievous getting captured by Gungans. sick Furthermore, GI has defeated Kanan on several occasions and he and Tarkin managed to capture Kanan. So to say that's all they managed to do is quite silly. They've had other victories as well, just none as resounding.

Beniboybling
Seeing as Kanan then proceeded to escape and the GI perished as a result, I wouldn't say that is a victory. My point is that overall they failed to defeat the Ghost Team, despite being the Empire's best, the only victory the protags didn't recover from being driven off Lothal.

The idea that they've had less losses combined, compared to the Seps, if that is even the case, would only be because the show has fewer seasons.

ares834
And yet, wouldn't that also apply to the CIS victories as well?

Beniboybling
Not when you consider the contexts, the Empire threw everything they had at the Ghost Team, literally their three most senior agents, and the best they managed to do was capture Kanan, learn nothing from him, and proceed to have him taken back, and lose the GI in the process.

Sure it's a victory, but not a great one, and considering the sheer number of advantages they had, pretty sad.

ares834

Beniboybling
So your saying the response was proportional to the threat?

Not sure how a single embarrassment compares to serial failure.

ares834
A Jedi led Rebellion on a world important to the DS's construction? Sure. Heck, they should have thrown more at them.

Are you saying that the CIS didn't have serial failure in TCW?

Edit: And the only real loss on the parts of Tarkin and the GI is the season 1 finale.

cdtm
Originally posted by quanchi112
Due to the weak resistance they were up against. Dooku and the separatist army would steamroll the rebels. The mere fact that the rebels did prevail over the galactic army despite being both numerically and firepower wise outgunned is a testament to the arrogance of the galactic empire that came from the emperor all the way down through the ranks.

Dooku got captured by Hondo.

That's just pathetic. evil face

cdtm
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Exactly thumb up

BTW, I've been skimming through the first episode of the Citadel arc and, again, the Separatists are portrayed to be vastly more formidable against a vastly more capable enemy than the Empire has been against the titular rebels.

TCW had its shortcomings, but Rebels could learn a thing or two from it about beefing up the bad guy... as sad as that is.

Beefing up....?

Kanan can't even handle a single Inquisitor. confused

With his record against any other force user, half surprised a force sensitive baby didn't overpower him.

quanchi112
Originally posted by cdtm
Dooku got captured by Hondo.

That's just pathetic. evil face Yeah, that was a pretty piss poor moment but he's just a Sith Lord he isn't Khan so cut him some slack.


laughing out loud

Dark-Kenshin
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, that was a pretty piss poor moment but he's just a Sith Lord he isn't Khan so cut him some slack.


laughing out loud In that same exact scenario, how would Khan have handled things?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In that same exact scenario, how would Khan have handled things?


Well let's compare. Dooku without any weapons got captured by 30 armed pirates aiming at him and completely surrounding him.

Khan without weapons got taken down by Spock and Uhura laughing out loud

juggernaut74
Dooku would smoke Khan.........easily at that.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
In that same exact scenario, how would Khan have handled things? Decimated Hondo and his thugs.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well let's compare. Dooku without any weapons got captured by 30 armed pirates aiming at him and completely surrounding him.

Khan without weapons got taken down by Spock and Uhura laughing out loud Dooku has fl and his force powers. What a weakling.

Context.

Dooku was recaptured after he, Anakin, and Kenobi tried escaping. Weaklings.

cdtm
And idiots, too.

They'll use the jedi mind trick to gain illegal entry to a bar, steal from a merchant, and torture a prisoner for information. But they never think to try it on the obviously weak minded pirate captain? laughing out loud

quanchi112
(auto quote)[/The Jedi were colossal morons. Yoda was one of the biggest schmucks around and you'll hear people go out of their way to look over the vast list of shortcomings.

The_Tempest
Skimming thru the Citadel arc again. Great episodes, minus some clunky dialogue.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by cdtm
And idiots, too.

They'll use the jedi mind trick to gain illegal entry to a bar, steal from a merchant, and torture a prisoner for information. But they never think to try it on the obviously weak minded pirate captain? laughing out loud
I don't think Hondo was weak minded though.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think Hondo was weak minded though. Taking back the traitors as easily as he did was quite weak.

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