Is Palpatine a universe buster?

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The Ellimist
Unleashing the full power of his hatred, he conjures a Force Storm that threatens to consume all of space, including the New Republic fleet.
- The Comics Companion

Is he a universe buster? Why or why not? If this canon source is just too "ridiculous" to be taken seriously, where do we draw the line? Are the Ones = universe buster quotes legit? How about Vitiate's galaxy absorbing ritual? Or Jerec's Valley of the Jedi experience? Or Palpatine's Force storms tearing surface off worlds? When can we just dismiss quotes for crossing some threshold of plausibility?

The Merchant
Main source>supplemental material. Palpatine in DE is not portrayed being capable of that whatsoever and he lost control of his storm but nothing like that happened.

Zenwolf
Take note of the key words, it threatens to, not that it would do so instantly. So overtime the Storm would no doubt be able to, probably growing bigger as it consumed things, but that was stopped before all that.

Beniboybling
The source material I clear. yes

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The source material I clear. yes

You what?

DarthAnt66
I doubt he's even a solar system buster.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He's not even a planet buster.

AncientPower
Nihilus > Reborn Palps confirmed.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Did you just say Nihilus was a planet buster?

AncientPower
Nihilus can legit annihilate the entire surface of planets, he's unrivalled amongst all Force feats of the mythos.

FreshestSlice
I like how this dumbass quote says all space, and then mentions the fleet like that's a big deal.

Nephthys
Nope.

SunRazer
Planet busters are people who can destroy entire planets completely. Neither Vitiate nor Nihilus nor Palpatine can do that through their own sheer power.

Also, "universe buster"? Lmfao @ giving any single individual in SW that honor.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by SunRazer
Planet busters are people who can destroy entire planets completely. Neither Vitiate nor Nihilus nor Palpatine can do that through their own sheer power.

AncientPower
Of course they aren't planet busters, I'm noting that considering Palpatine isn't even a planet buster, nevermind universe buster, Nihilus still maintains the lead in terms of destructive feats.

SunRazer
Not really. We know Nihilus compliments his "planetary" Force attacks with orbital bombardment, which makes it much less impressive than Sidious' Force Storms. Nor the Ziost thing, even though that's probably a ritual.

And Sidious not being a planet buster in of itself doesn't make Nihilus the leader in terms of destructive feats, since, once again, Nihilus isn't a planet buster either.

AncientPower
Except the sources claiming Nihilus' fleet was involved are in direct conflict with the statements made by the sole surviving witness, who makes it clear no 'weapons' were involved, and the depiction in Unseen, Unheard. In which, no bombardment at all is portrayed, only Nihilus' powers engulfing the planet in some black storm that annihilates everything in its path.

The_Tempest
The Comics Companion says he can consume all of space, seems pretty straightforward to me.

smile

SunRazer
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except the sources claiming Nihilus' fleet was involved are in direct conflict with the statements made by the sole surviving witness, who makes it clear no 'weapons' were involved

Then that's what you call a retcon.



You see buildings crumbling, which obviously isn't the product of Drain. Given that Nihilus' future planetary conquests all involved orbital bombardment, I find it incredibly unlikely that this was some sort of Force Power he was using. Why the need for fleet bombardment when you can just invoke your powers to destroy the landscape?

The Battle of Telos IV makes it blatantly obvious that Nihilus couldn't just Drain entire planets on a whim. That's why Telos and its population, you know, survived...

AncientPower
It states he can threaten all of space with his storm, which as we've agreed before is complete brain death tier logic. Of interest is the inclusion of the NR fleet in that statement, which is rather redundant given the prior statement of 'all of space'. It may be logical to conclude that 'all of space', is infact a hyperbolic statement meant to infer that the space around the planet was being threatened.

SunRazer
Space, and statements relating to it, are all relative. It probably means proximate space. Otherwise, Luke'd be a universe-buster as well, in which case the events of FotJ wouldn't have been a problem for him. That being said, Sidious' Wormholes could gradually expand in size such that they'd threaten the entire galaxy and beyond, but Palpatine would've lost control of them long before that point, and if that happened, it probably would've dissipated like the one that Palpatine lost control of in DE II. So technically, the Wormholes could eventually "threaten all of space", but Palpatine wouldn't be able to control them anymore by that point.

Anyway, Temp's just messing with you, AP.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. We know Nihilus compliments his "planetary" Force attacks with orbital bombardment Where is this stated?

The_Tempest
Or it's a rhetorical device intended to illustrate the immediate and intended target: the New Republic fleet.

It doesn't say all of local space. It says all of space.

The Comics Companion seems more authoritative than your skepticism.

SunRazer
"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin."
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I know some of you are immediately going to say "blasted" doesn't mean bombardment, but given that it mentions his flagship, that's easily the most logical inference. And that does fit in with Nihilus' rather contradicting performance during the Battle of Telos IV. Oh, and Nihilus was amped during the Katarr feat as well.

AncientPower
Originally posted by SunRazer
Then that's what you call a retcon.

Unless, of course, that statement isn't actually correct.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You see buildings crumbling, which obviously isn't the product of Drain. Given that Nihilus' future planetary conquests all involved orbital bombardment, I find it incredibly unlikely that this was some sort of Force Power he was using. Why the need for fleet bombardment when you can just invoke your powers to destroy the landscape?

Care to tell me what weapons on Interdictor class starships that cause massive black engulfing clouds that spread like tendrils across entire planetary surfaces? Because when Malak massed his fleet of those same ships to perform a bombardment, it just about destroyed a single city... not nearly what is depicted in Unseen, Unheard.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Battle of Telos IV makes it blatantly obvious that Nihilus couldn't just Drain entire planets on a whim. That's why Telos and its population, you know, survived...

Or maybe it was the fact that Nihilus did try to drain Telos IV, but the wounded planet actually weakened him.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SunRazer
Space, and statements relating to it, are all relative. It probably means proximate space. Otherwise, Luke'd be a universe-buster as well, in which case the events of FotJ wouldn't have been a problem for him. That being said, Sidious' Wormholes could gradually expand in size such that they'd threaten the entire galaxy and beyond, but Palpatine would've lost control of them long before that point, and if that happened, it probably would've dissipated like the one that Palpatine lost control of in DE II. So technically, the Wormholes could eventually "threaten all of space", but Palpatine wouldn't be able to control them anymore by that point.

Anyway, Temp's just messing with you, AP.

Except the passage identifies the volume of space involved: "all" of it. If he said "threatens to consume space," an argument for local space could be easily entertained.

Invalidating the quote because Luke didn't moonwalk through FOTJ seems suspect IMO.

SunRazer
@Temp -



I'm contesting the quote on the basis that the Force itself isn't a universe-buster. There's no way that a power produced from the Force could destroy the universe.



As I said, I'm invalidating the quote on the basis that the Force itself is a product of life in the universe, and that it can't realistically or holistically destroy the universe.

It's more suspect to suggest that Palpatine would have any intention of threatening all of space when he intends to rule it. In other words, it's hyperbole.

The_Tempest
I don't think for a second that the Emperor intended to destroy the universe.

SunRazer
@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?

2. The clouds could well just be smoke arising from the destruction of the buildings and impacts from the turbolasers.

And as I recall, all of Taris got destroyed (the entire planet is a city, like Coruscant). The specific order from Malak was to wipe the entire planet out, and future sources referencing the bombardment refer to the entire planet being wrecked.

3. Does this have any basis, or is this just assumed like your 10 000 Jedi in the post-KotOR timeframe?

AncientPower
Except any kind of Force storm isn't going to do any better than, and frankly the actual feats of his Force storms don't even begin to approach, a supermassive black hole, which can't even 'bust' the core of a galaxy, nevermind 'all of space', I.E the universe.

It's very clearly localised Temp, because any other conclusion is ludicrous.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think for a second that the Emperor intended to destroy the universe.

Per the quote, he either intends to destroy all of space or it's unintentional (ie. it's out of his control). I don't think you'd support the latter, and it's obvious that he only actually loses control once the Force Harmony commences, so the latter option is pretty much ruled out.

If you don't believe that the former was the case, then the only alternative you have left is it being hyperbole.

The_Tempest
Not at all. It says he unleashed the full power of his hatred. I think he was extremely pissed and only intended to smite the New Republic fleet... But inadvertently loosed a storm that threatens all of space as well.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. It says he unleashed the full power of his hatred. I think he was extremely pissed and only intended to smite the New Republic fleet... But inadvertently loosed a storm that threatens all of space as well.

Threatening all of space amounts to threatening the very dimensions that comprise the universe itself, which is an infinitely grander scale than smiting the New Republic fleet. At that point in time, the Storm itself would in no way pose a threat to the dimension of space itself. Canonically superior Force users haven't been able to do anything like that.

As I said earlier, the only way the Storm would ever possibly threaten the universe (even theoretically) is if it were left unabated for an immeasurably long time and allowed to expand of its own accord (again, assuming that it doesn't just dissipate as per the Storm that Palpatine lost control of in DE), but long before that point, Palpatine would no longer be able to control the Storm. So that's not really worth mentioning in a battle thread or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster.

tl;dr - Even taking the quote literally, at its very best, it still can't be used in battle threads literally or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster. The far easier and more logical assumption is that it's hyperbole.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SunRazer
Threatening all of space amounts to threatening the very dimensions that comprise the universe itself, which is an infinitely grander scale than smiting the New Republic fleet. At that point in time, the Storm itself would in no way pose a threat to the dimension of space itself. Canonically superior Force users haven't been able to do anything like that.

As I said earlier, the only way the Storm would ever possibly threaten the universe (even theoretically) is if it were left unabated for an immeasurably long time and allowed to expand of its own accord (again, assuming that it doesn't just dissipate as per the Storm that Palpatine lost control of in DE), but long before that point, Palpatine would no longer be able to control the Storm. So that's not really worth mentioning in a battle thread or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster.

tl;dr - Even taking the quote literally, at its very best, it still can't be used in battle threads literally or as an argument for Palpatine being a universe buster. The far easier and more logical assumption is that it's hyperbole.

I'm aware that threatening all of space is infinitely greater than destroying the fleet. I'm simply telling you that, per the quote, Palpatine is extremely pissed and as is often the case when people are extremely pissed, precision and control might have been compromised. It's not an outlandish notion at all.

The idea that the quote is invalidated because superior Force users haven't demonstrated that kind of power might be worth considering if feats in Star Wars were consistent.

Your argument assumes the only way this is possible is for Sheev to lose control of it and for an enormous length of time... Neither of these assumptions have been proven by you.

SunRazer
1. Then the question is whether you believe that the Storms threatened all of space at that moment, or if given time. Because the former is disproven by the instance itself, whereby, say, the surrounding galaxies were under no threat whatsoever.

2. It's not even about feats - just the fact that three innately greater Force users (by a large margin) in the Ones can tear apart the fabric of the universe, but they can only do that when warring with each other. An immeasurably inferior Force user like Sidious isn't going to be able to manage that on his own. And once again, the Force itself isn't powerful enough to destroy the universe, since it's really just an aspect of it. Implying that a Force Power wielded by a finite vessel can threaten the universe itself is reaching desperately. I know you're toying, though.

3. Sure it is. The fact that Palpatine's Force Storms dissipate right after destroying planetary surfaces/fleets indicates a limit to their power and existence. They don't even live long enough to fulfill my theory. In fact, the very Wormhole that was described by that source as "threatening all of space" dissipated shortly after destroying the fleet. In no way could that have been depicted as a threat to all of space, except in hyperbole.

The_Tempest
The storm dissipated shortly after it consumed the Emperor, there's no evidence to suggest that the limit is related to planetary mass. In fact, clearly that's not the case: we know it can kill worlds and yet the storm vanishes after consuming a single Star Destroyer. It's because the Emperor died.

The idea that because The Anchorites are capable of wreaking havoc on the universe precludes the Emperor from doing so is unfounded. No one is saying that the Emperor is their equal, which would imply that feats of destruction are the only way to measure great power.

So far, your argument has an abundance of assumptions and a dearth of evidence.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
"In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin."
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I know some of you are immediately going to say "blasted" doesn't mean bombardment, but given that it mentions his flagship, that's easily the most logical inference. And that does fit in with Nihilus' rather contradicting performance during the Battle of Telos IV. Oh, and Nihilus was amped during the Katarr feat as well. Yup, that's exactly what I'm going to say. And considering we so no orbital bombardment on Katarr, I find your inference tenous at best. erm

SunRazer
1. Actually, it's probably because the Emperor was "cut off" from his Storm, which meant it had no source or anything to fuel itself, so it couldn't keep going. It would've devoured the Emperor and the Eclipse in its dying stages. If the Emperor had been cut off from the Storm, he would no longer have any meaningful relation to it, meaning that his death would be inconsequential. So as I said, it's likely him being cut off from the Storm that caused it to wane and eventually dissipate, not his actual death (by which the time he was non-Force sensitive, IIRC).

Anyway, you both failed to answer my question and you neglected to address the fact that the very Wormhole being described as a threat to space itself obviously wasn't a threat to all of space.

2. The fact that the Anchorites are only capable of wreaking such havoc when they're fighting amongst themselves is my point. Each of them is already immeasurably more powerful than Sidious, and more than one of them has to fight with another in order to portend such a threat to the fabric of reality itself. Once again, Sidious is an immeasurably inferior vessel of the Force and is on his lonesome here.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?Did Vitiate's drain not destroy buildings on the planet's surface? Guess he employed orbital bombardment as well?laughing out loud

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yup, that's exactly what I'm going to say. And considering we so no orbital bombardment on Katarr, I find your inference tenous at best. erm

How so? Nihilus has failed to replicate such a measure of Drain whenever it was convenient for him to do so.

And again, why would they mention the Ravager if the blasting wasn't a reference to it? As per Occam's Razor and a variant of Chekhov's Gun, we can assume that the "blasting" refers to the Ravager blasting the worlds into ruin.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did Vitiate's drain not destroy buildings on the planet's surface? Guess he employed orbital bombardment as well?laughing out loud

I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous.

1. The Nathema one? Buildings/vehicles were only destroyed because the people themselves were vaporized, so there was nothing left to work on them. Therefore, the speeders would've kept going on until they crashed into, say, a wall, which I believe the novel describes. The building foundations themselves were intact, as I recall.

2. Artistically, when buildings fall, they create giant dust clouds. In fact, impacts in an area in some artistic sources are depicted as giant clouds. In fact, what we see is billowing clouds from destroyed buildings.

My other response is on the last page.

SunRazer
@Temp - To simplify the argument, the fact that the Wormhole being described as a threat to all of space wasn't in fact a threat to all of space contradicts and invalidates the quote. It makes it pretty clear that your quote is hyperbolic.

That's my evidence - the fact that the Wormhole in question obviously wasn't a threat to all of space. The fact that you think it's reasonable means you're the one loaded with assumptions, not me. It's blatantly not a threat to all of space.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Actually, it's probably because the Emperor was "cut off" from his Storm, which meant it had no source or anything to fuel itself, so it couldn't keep going. It would've devoured the Emperor and the Eclipse in its dying stages. If the Emperor had been cut off from the Storm, he would no longer have any meaningful relation to it, meaning that his death would be inconsequential. So as I said, it's likely him being cut off from the Storm that caused it to wane and eventually dissipate, not his actual death (by which the time he was non-Force sensitive, IIRC).

Anyway, you both failed to answer my question and you neglected to address the fact that the very Wormhole being described as a threat to space itself obviously wasn't a threat to all of space.

2. The fact that the Anchorites are only capable of wreaking such havoc when they're fighting amongst themselves is my point. Each of them is already immeasurably more powerful than Sidious, and more than one of them has to fight with another in order to portend such a threat to the fabric of reality itself. Once again, Sidious is an immeasurably inferior vessel of the Force and is on his lonesome here.

1. Which again does not remotely imply that planetary mass is sufficient to tax the storm when it dissipates after consuming an exponentially smaller object (the Eclipse). You have provided no evidence for this claim.

2. What question?

3. The Comic's Companion says the storm threatened to consume all of space. The fact that it didn't doesn't mean the threat wasn't there. The Emperor was killed and, consequently, the storm dissipated and the threat was removed.

4. Nowhere is it said that the ONLY way the Anchorites can threaten the universe is by their direct conflict. Else The Father wouldn't have an issue with The Son leaving, right? Your interpretation means as long as they're separated, there would be no cosmic threat. And yet all parties expend enormous effort to keep Tbe Son contained on Mortis.

Again, many assumptions, no evidence. I'm going to need more before I disregard an explicit declaration from a credible authority.

AncientPower
Originally posted by SunRazer
@AP -

1. Sure. But you haven't disproven it yet. Would you care to venture an alternative means of destroying those buildings?

So we're going to ignore the fact Vitiate's draining of Ziost also damaged the surface of the planet, but when it comes to Nihilus, his fleet must have been involved? Ok then.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The clouds could well just be smoke arising from the destruction of the buildings and impacts from the turbolasers.

Except, the smoke isn't rising in plumes like the smoke from explosions. It's a large black storm cloud spreading across the entire surface.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And as I recall, all of Taris got destroyed (the entire planet is a city, like Coruscant). The specific order from Malak was to wipe the entire planet out, and future sources referencing the bombardment refer to the entire planet being wrecked.

Which would be acceptable if SWTOR and even KOTOR's own cutscenes, didn't depict something absolutely nothing like Coruscant or a planet-wide city.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Does this have any basis, or is this just assumed like your 10 000 Jedi in the post-KotOR timeframe?

I assume you've read Star Wars The Old Republic Revan right?



As for Nihilus on Telos IV, hell let's clear this up entirely. Nihilus can destroy Citadel Station, which is enormous itself, as well as the planet beneath it:



Infact, it is pretty specific that he himself does the deed, not his ship:

SunRazer
1. I wasn't referring to planetary mass, but fair enough.

2. Whether you felt that the Storm was a threat to all of space at that very point or if you thought that the Storm could be a threat to all of space given time to develop.

3. Except the Storm wasn't of sufficient magnitude to cover any significant fraction of the universe, and it's not like it left a permanent void in space wherever it travelled. Ergo, as it moves, it leaves behind some empty space. Empty, yes, but space nonetheless. The punctures in space clearly mend themselves. The Wormhole could travel around the universe for however long it wanted, but it wouldn't be destroying the universe itself.

I mean, there's a pretty simple analogy for it - if I punched a hole in a sheet of paper, would there ever be a point where a hole punched in the paper would ever be able to destroy the paper itself? No, there isn't. You can only destroy the paper entirely if you punch a hole surrounding the paper, not a hole from within. That corresponds to the universe only being able to be destroyed by trans-universal forces, not a wormhole from within.

4. That's the reason that all of the Ones had to move to Mortis, otherwise just one or two would've sufficed. And the Father didn't want the Son leaving Mortis because he could influence galactic events, not the fabric of reality itself.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
How so? Nihilus has failed to replicate such a measure of Drain whenever it was convenient for him to do so.Lots of people fail to do things when its convenient to do so, its called PIS. Though that said Nihilus hardly behaves like a rational human being, and fails to react immediately to a lot of things, like your presence on the ship. Or maybe he wasn't close enough to the planet, or perhaps he lost interest after realising it was a trap.Because the Ravager is where, as the source says, he "leads his Sith forces"? And in particular, is the vehicle by which he scoured the galaxy searching for planets to consume? It's very relevant.

But again, we see no evidence of orbital bombardment in Unseen, Unheard, and we know planetary scale drain can do damage to buildings. So if we are going to apply Ockham's razor, the simplest explanation is that "blasting" is referring to his explosive application of drain. Your suggestion only raises problems, not resolves them. Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The Nathema one? Buildings/vehicles were only destroyed because the people themselves were vaporized, so there was nothing left to work on them. Therefore, the speeders would've kept going on until they crashed into, say, a wall, which I believe the novel describes. The building foundations themselves were intact, as I recall.

2. Artistically, when buildings fall, they create giant dust clouds. In fact, impacts in an area in some artistic sources are depicted as giant clouds. In fact, what we see is billowing clouds from destroyed buildings.

My other response is on the last page. 1. No, Ziost.

2. A ridiculously contrived explanation, for one the cloud is visible from space (no amount of destroyed buildings would be) and as single mass despite the buildings being scattered across the planet; secondly dust clouds are not black and if you look at the panels, a clear distinction is made between the dark clouds of the storm and the comparatively lighter clouds emerging from the destroyed buildings; then finally and most compellingly, despite seeing a view of the planet's destruction from space, nowhere is the Ravager depicted firing at the planet, which for the record it would have been impossible for a single capital ship to achieve so quickly.

Altogether I suggest refreshing your memory of the source material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK8UiRGIltY

Because your assessment couldn't be more off.

SunRazer
@AP

1. Who said Vitiate's Ziost event and Nihilus' Katarr event were identical in terms of the powers enacted?

2. The black cloud travelling across the atmosphere couldn't be the black smoke billowing from the buildings in the next panel?

3. Ah. More evidence of Drew not knowing anything then. I mean, you could argue it'd be a retcon, except I believe codexes in SWTOR describe the Jedi during the Purge. I'll have to find it.

4. The fact that Visas and Tobin claim that Nihilus "will" destroy Telos but he didn't works in my favor, not yours. Nothing prohibits him from destroying Telos in the same way as he did Katarr, assuming that he can just enact some Force power to "turn it to fire" again. The phrase "turn it to fire" implies orbital bombardment as well.

The_Tempest
Again, I'm referring you to the quote where the Storm could consume all of space. Does that mean it would literally destroy empty space alongside tangible objects like planets? No idea and I don't think the quote demands a particular interpretation.

I think the storm threatened to consume all of space the moment it was summoned, per the quote. Doesn't mean it could have succeeded immediately at that moment, though.

The fact that The Father moved his children to Mortis indicates to me that any and all of them were existential threats to the temporal universe. I don't think The Father gave a rats ass about anything less, which is why he was aware of but ignored galactic menaces like the Clone Wars and the Sith.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean, there's a pretty simple analogy for it - if I punched a hole in a sheet of paper, would there ever be a point where a hole punched in the paper would ever be able to destroy the paper itself? No, there isn't. You can only destroy the paper entirely if you punch a hole surrounding the paper, not a hole from within. That corresponds to the universe only being able to be destroyed by trans-universal forces, not a wormhole from within. If you punched enough holes in the paper, it would be reduced to tatters and fall apart. mmm

SunRazer
@Beni -

1. More like a plot hole, just like Nihilus' ship staying together after his death.

2. Implying that "blast" refers to Drain is even more problematic than what I suggested.

3. Volcanic ash clouds are visible in space. If it travels into the atmosphere in sufficient quantities, it's visible from space. Also, could that just not be storm clouds? As you correctly distinguished, the clouds emitted from the destruction are lighter. The black clouds in the sky just sit in the atmosphere and do nothing.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
If you punched enough holes in the paper, it would be reduced to tatters and fall apart. mmm

Except the fabric of the sheet (the paper) would still be intact. That's what space is/corresponds to in my analogy. The sheet itself is the universe, the paper surface/material being the fabric of space.

AncientPower
@SR

1.The affects were different, the effects were not.

2.Because black clouds traverse surfaces like tendrils crawling across the planet? Dat some weird ass smoke.

3.The 'Sith Triumvirate' codex entry makes no solid mention of the order's strength, just that it was wiped out by them.

4.Uh... it states he will destroy the station.. that probably causes a lot of fire. Kreia tricked Nihilus into going to Telos IV, knowing his hunger wouldn't be satiated, making him weaker than usual.

It states he will 'obliterate' and 'crush' the planet, as well as Citadel Station.

It is obviously not the fleet.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, I'm referring you to the quote where the Storm could consume all of space. Does that mean it would literally destroy empty space alongside tangible objects like planets? No idea and I don't think the quote demands a particular interpretation.

Well, it obviously doesn't mean that, given that the Wormholes don't destroy empty space.



Yet it was in no position to threaten "all of space" in that moment. For that matter, even the word "threaten" is relative and different definitions.

The fact that The Father moved his children to Mortis indicates to me that any and all of them were existential threats to the temporal universe. I don't think The Father gave a rats ass about anything less, which is why he was aware of but ignored galactic menaces like the Clone Wars and the Sith.

Alright, fair enough. I have to hit the sack now, though.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Beni -

1. More like a plot hole, just like Nihilus' ship staying together after his death.

2. Implying that "blast" refers to Drain is even more problematic than what I suggested.

3. Volcanic ash clouds are visible in space. If it travels into the atmosphere in sufficient quantities, it's visible from space. Also, could that just not be storm clouds? As you correctly distinguished, the clouds emitted from the destruction are lighter. The black clouds in the sky just sit in the atmosphere and do nothing. 1. Doesn't matter either way.

2. Not when Force drain can do physical destruction as seen on Ziost and indeed Katarr.

3. We're not dealing with volcanic ash clouds. And I imagine you'd have to have the eruption of several supervolcanos to create such a giant mass. And from what storm? Regardless in the panel depicting the buildings collapsing, you can see that the clouds are penetrating well below the cloudline, and I'm given the impression they are causing the destruction.Originally posted by SunRazer
Except the fabric of the sheet (the paper) would still be intact. That's what space is/corresponds to in my analogy. The sheet itself is the universe, the paper surface/material being the fabric of space. If shredded tatters on the floor = intact, then OK...

AncientPower
They also aren't acting like clouds of smoke rising from turbolaser impacts, they appear to be like tendrils spreading across the surface. It is clearly not some effect of orbital bombardment.

But anyway, drain has always dealt physical effects, both Vitiate and Nihilus have done surface damage to the planets they've destroyed. Though Nihilus didn't need any aid and his powers appear to deal more surface damage too.

I think the statement that Nihilus can destroy a station as large as Citadel station with his powers is insane, that thing covers a considerably large section of the planet itself.

He is essentially unrivalled in terms of raw destructive power.

#GOAT

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not really. We know Nihilus compliments his "planetary" Force attacks with orbital bombardment, which makes it much less impressive than Sidious' Force Storms. Nor the Ziost thing, even though that's probably a ritual.
I don't think that was orbital bombardment. But Darth Nihilus had the fleet at his disposal so I wouldn't rule out the possibility. However, Unseen Unheard doesn't depicts orbital bombardment.

And on what grounds are you assuming Ziost-based event to be a ritual?

Vitiate expended lot of energy possessing individuals across the planet and utilized them for violent activities that would lead to deaths and those deaths would replenish him faster. Amidst all of this, he have time to perform a ritual? Makes no sense to me.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
But anyway, drain has always dealt physical effects, both Vitiate and Nihilus have done surface damage to the planets they've destroyed. Though Nihilus didn't need any aid and his powers appear to deal more surface damage too.
Force Drain powers are not really good at destroying inanimate objects due to their nature. Destruction follows largely due to intensity of the Force Drain waves that produce violent tremors in their path. Not to forget the resultant chaos of countless vessels mid-flight that would suddenly come down after their drivers have been taken out.

Vitiate didn't need any aid either; he destroyed the world when his strength had been fully restored. And there is no way to prove whether Katarr was more destructive or Ziost; this is meaningless dick-measuring point. But to enlighten you a bit; Vitiate's expression of Force Drain consumed not just living beings but even oceans and also extensively harmed the planet's atmosphere and flora, leaving large swaths of corrosive lands and anomalies on the surface.

SIDIOUS 66
SunRazer, your argument is set up in such a way that it requires far more explaining than the quote. Some of the claims you're throwing out are beyond your ability to back up with any kind of absolute fact. Our minds can comprehend what destroy/consume all of space implies, but it's far beyond our comprehension to understand all of space let alone how it can even be consumed. It's like creating a fictional character and stating that he has been around forever or since before the beginning of time, I can go into depths on how it doesn't make sense because "before the beginning or time" means that there was a time before time, thus contradicting the word beginning in the term. Logically it would just imply that there was no period of time in which the character didn't exist; he's just been around forever.

Regardless of whether or not we can wrap our heads around it, the quote implies that Palpatine, in his max rage, can potentially consume the universe. Being unable to grasp such a concept doesn't mean it's hyperbole.

Going by your strict definition of being a universe buster, well, then...there is none in all of comicbookdom. Not TOAA, Tribunal and any other comic character stated to have destroyed universes, multiverses and whatever.

Darth Abonis
Space is HUGE. Theirs no way a Force storm can affect the whole universe.

AncientPower
@LeGenD, the landscape depicted upon Nihilus' retrieval of Visas Marr is far more damaged than what we see on Ziost. Everything was completely and utterly flattened, even the mountains appeared to have suffered extensive damage compared to previous effects. What we see on Katarr is just on a more physically destructive level.

@S66, There is a massive difference between what those characters in comicbook verses do and what is claimed in regards to Palpatine's Force storms, a Force storm is a wormhole in space, no such anomaly could possibly absorb the universe. A supermassive black hole, the most destructive force possible, is not capable of absorbing a galactic core, nevermind the universe itself.

Given that the universe busting is thoroughly illogical, we must analyse the fact that, if the Force storm was indeed capable of threatening 'all of space' then the following statement that it threatened the fleet too would be redundant. So logical analysis would leave us with the idea that Palpatine threatened local space.

S_W_LeGenD

AncientPower
You are laughably ignoring the visual depiction.

The Ellimist

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
You are laughably ignoring the visual depiction.
The visual depiction presents us a murky view of the planet after the deed. We don't get a clear view of its landscape. Therefore, what became of the landscape, remains open to interpretation and opinion.

My point is that Force Drain powers do not destroy inanimate objects to an extent that you are boasting/assuming. Force Drain powers are designed/intended to steal the energy of living beings. They are not telekinetic forces.

This is the only image we have of post-destruction Katarr from the surface:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2nvfo1x.png

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
First of all, it's not even clear that Vitiate used force drain to devastate Ziost. Secondly:



Ziost's buildings were always shitholes. smile

Edit: Credit to S_W_LeGenD for the above quote. smile

AncientPower
thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The God Emperor's approval is always welcome. smile

SunRazer
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SunRazer, your argument is set up in such a way that it requires far more explaining than the quote. Some of the claims you're throwing out are beyond your ability to back up with any kind of absolute fact. Our minds can comprehend what destroy/consume all of space implies, but it's far beyond our comprehension to understand all of space let alone how it can even be consumed. It's like creating a fictional character and stating that he has been around forever or since before the beginning of time, I can go into depths on how it doesn't make sense because "before the beginning or time" means that there was a time before time, thus contradicting the word beginning in the term. Logically it would just imply that there was no period of time in which the character didn't exist; he's just been around forever.

Not sure what you're talking about. None of the stuff we're discussing here is hard to get our heads around, because Palpatine isn't at that level of sheer reality warping, nor is he a cosmic entity. We can comprehend entirely if he's threatening the universe - but he obviously wasn't in the instance in question.



Except he can't. The Force itself lacks the means of destroying all of the universe. A finite vessel wielding a finite aspect of the Force can't possibly do that, and the quote mentions it threatening all of space in present tense. That clearly didn't happen. It's hyperbole - get it through your head and stop whinging over how people can't comprehend it. It's obviously not what happened in the source itself.



Based on what? LT can destroy universes on a whim, because he transcends the dimensions that comprise a universe. The image of him we see in the comic books is explicitly an avatar he's constructed for the benefit of lesser beings perceiving him.

SunRazer
For the Nihilus stuff, I'll respond later.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by AncientPower
@LeGenD, the landscape depicted upon Nihilus' retrieval of Visas Marr is far more damaged than what we see on Ziost. Everything was completely and utterly flattened, even the mountains appeared to have suffered extensive damage compared to previous effects. What we see on Katarr is just on a more physically destructive level.

@S66, There is a massive difference between what those characters in comicbook verses do and what is claimed in regards to Palpatine's Force storms, a Force storm is a wormhole in space, no such anomaly could possibly absorb the universe. A supermassive black hole, the most destructive force possible, is not capable of absorbing a galactic core, nevermind the universe itself.

Given that the universe busting is thoroughly illogical, we must analyse the fact that, if the Force storm was indeed capable of threatening 'all of space' then the following statement that it threatened the fleet too would be redundant. So logical analysis would leave us with the idea that Palpatine threatened local space.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Most likely because the New Republic fleet is (a) the immediate target, (b) allies of our intrepid heroes, and (c) inside space... all of which is threatened to be consumed.

watch?v=W60NtmUfxkk

Kinda like here. Sam is trying to arrange a meeting with Lucifer via Crowley to stop the ultimate existential threat, but at 3:17, he says "the point is to try to save everyone's bacon, including yours."

Redundant perhaps, but a commonly used rhetorical tool.

It's rhetorical, nothing more. 👍

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure what you're talking about. None of the stuff we're discussing here is hard to get our heads around, because Palpatine isn't at that level of sheer reality warping, nor is he a cosmic entity. We can comprehend entirely if he's threatening the universe - but he obviously wasn't in the instance in question.


I was referring to your paper analogy and your seeming strict definition of the term universe buster. It seems like you're trying to make sense of the unimaginable as a way to explain how it's not possible, which is beyond anyone.

The "threat" part seems to have been explained pretty well. In this case, the very thing that threatened all of space was at the time actively consuming what would/could have been all of space.



Originally posted by SunRazer
Except he can't.


That is what the quote implies.


Originally posted by SunRazer
The Force itself lacks the means of destroying all of the universe. A finite vessel wielding a finite aspect of the Force can't possibly do that


You're arguing as if you have a full understanding of a fictional all powerful force that governs time and destiny of an entire universe. This isn't simple physics. Fact: all of space is beyond our comprehension. In-universe SW fact: so is the force. Therefore we can't know what it's capable of at full destructive potency.

Being an aspect of something doesn't mean the aspect lacks the ability to destroy the whole, especially regarding the powerful aspect within a fictional universe. (Nyriss was destroyed by an aspect of herself)


Originally posted by SunRazer
and the quote mentions it threatening all of space in present tense. That clearly didn't happen.


And obviously it was.

The source mentions all of space being threatened by such a powerful force that was unleashed and active at the time? Where is the contradiction?

Are we supposed to assume all of space an exaggeration of just the fleet? The quote implies something way and beyond than it's intended target. Prove your case by facts, and there'd be no reason to question it. Because mentioning more than the fleet makes far less sense than "rhetorically" referring to it.


Originally posted by SunRazer
It's hyperbole - get it through your head and stop whinging over how people can't comprehend it. It's obviously not what happened in the source itself.


I'm not whining at all. I simply find myself asking more questions regarding your argument than accepting what the quote implies. You're the one trying to make sense of it with math, which I'm stating is impossible and beyond anyone. But, by all means, keep going.



Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on what? LT can destroy universes on a whim, because he transcends the dimensions that comprise a universe.


And the full power of the dark side wielded by The Emperor can destroy all of space/time that comprise the universe. How does one make sense over the other?

Unless multiverse is equivalent to SW's single universe. I was referring to the characters said to be able to destroy 'it all' meaning all of existence, which isn't possible by your own argument.


@AP


That would be far beyond planet busting, tho. SR suggests lesser. And either way, it would still make no sense to even regard the fleet, right? Unless of course it was referred to rhetorically. Therefore, no, it wouldn't have to "logically" mean local space.

The only logical interpretation is Tempest's.

The_Tempest
There is much wisdom in your words.

Especially the last six. 👍

SunRazer
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was referring to your paper analogy and your seeming strict definition of the term universe buster. It seems like you're trying to make sense of the unimaginable as a way to explain how it's not possible, which is beyond anyone.

It's not strict at all. What's your definition of "universe buster", then? Because I'm defining it as the words define themselves.



No, it hasn't. At the point that the Wormhole was being described as a threat to space, it was a threat to nothing more than the New Republic fleet.




What?



We're aware that the Force as we understand it was established concurrently with life. It doesn't predate or encompass the universe itself or anything. We're also aware that Palpatine doesn't wield the full power of the Force (not even close). I'm not even using physics; I'm using logic.



Nyriss charged up and expended what was inferrably all of or a vast majority of her power. Palpatine doesn't wield all of or a vast majority of the Force's overall power, or anything close to that. So your analogy doesn't work - it also doesn't work because both Nyriss and the power she unleashed on herself were finite. They had limits, it was just that the power Nyriss unleashed was greater than the barriers she raised in defense when it was sent back on her. By contrast, Palpatine's power is finite, but space is infinite. It's not a comparable instance at all.



Show me where it "obviously" was a threat to all of space in the comic. Because I'm pretty sure someone on the other side of the galaxy wouldn't be aware of the occurrence of that Wormhole, much less feeling its effects or being threatened by it. I mean, if that's what you want to believe, then alright...



The comic itself, perhaps? Where is it in the comic that all of space was feeling the repercussions or the threat of the Storm that Palpatine generated? You'd be deluded to assume that was the case. The Storm destroyed the Alliance base on the moon, yet not the moon itself. That clearly doesn't portend a threat to all of space.



I think it's an exaggeration of the proximate space, but regardless of what I think it is, I know what it isn't - a threat to all of space.



The facts are arrayed with me, here. You can't possibly argue that the Wormhole in question as depicted in the comics was a threat to all of space.



I'm making sense of it with logic and displayed evidence, not math. And you're whining about how all of this transcends our understanding and what not. That sounds more like a cop-out for this discussion once your case gets proven to be logically unsound. "Oh, but that's because we can't use logic for this, since it transcends our comprehension" thumb up



By making sense of the fact that the Wormhole the Emperor unleashed clearly didn't threaten all of space at the time?



Then we weren't discussing the same thing. I referred to LT being able to destroy single universes - obviously not the entire omniverse. But the ability to destroy single universes isn't unprecedented, and your argument isn't making any sense. You can destroy the universe/single universes in comics - it's just that Palpatine couldn't in DE.

SunRazer
@Sidious 66 - Temp's just messing around, lol.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Universe Buster:

http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/8/80518/1472778-wf4.jpg

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Sidious 66 - Temp's just messing around, lol.

Am I? The statement is explicit, comes from a credible, out of universe source, and isn't explicitly contradicted anywhere.

Star Wars is replete with elements that defy both scientific laws and basic reason.

Seems perfectly commensurate with the Emperor being the ultimate SW villain.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Am I? The statement is explicit, comes from a credible, out of universe source, and isn't explicitly contradicted anywhere.

Star Wars is replete with elements that defy both scientific laws and basic reason.

Seems perfectly commensurate with the Emperor being the ultimate SW villain.

Indeed you are. You're repeating yourself.

The_Tempest
Just summing up why it makes sense to take the quote at face value. 👍

There's less reason to disregard it tbh.

SunRazer
Just summing up why only people who are in mental hospital wards would consider taking it at face value thumb up

The_Tempest
Welcome to Star Wars, where authorities say and do silly things all the time. 👍

SunRazer
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Welcome to Star Wars, where authorities say and do silly things all the time. 👍

Yay! We agree it's silly.

Do you seriously believe it with all of your heart, though?

The_Tempest
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yay! We agree it's silly.

Do you seriously believe it with all of your heart, though?

I already told you, on the previous page.

SunRazer
I mean, truly, unquestionably, irrevocably place all of your faith in the quote? Would you stake your life on it?

Emperordmb
Who the **** would stake their life on any Star Wars quote?!

The_Tempest
I would absolutely stake DMB's life on it.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Who the **** would stake their life on any Star Wars quote?!

Don't spoil it.

carthage
Someone stake DMBs life and lose please

The Ellimist
Are there any actual arguments against the quote beyond appeals to personal incredulity? You guys are fine with Vitiate's galaxy ritual - where do you draw the line?

AncientPower
Vitiate's ritual is sorcery, it would have taken untold amounts of death to fuel, it drains life throughout the galaxy by leeching the Force itself. Huge difference between corrupting and siphoning the Force on a massive scale to kill all life in the galaxy, and destroying the universe with a Force storm. The logic, psychics and means are not at all similar.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
thumb up

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate's ritual is sorcery, it would have taken untold amounts of death to fuel, it drains life throughout the galaxy by leeching the Force itself. Huge difference between corrupting and siphoning the Force on a massive scale to kill all life in the galaxy, and destroying the universe with a Force storm. The logic, psychics and means are not at all similar.


Are you really going to argue this makes more sense because of sorcery? Reaalllyyy? Hmmm

Guess the logic just supports it more cause magic is more real in fiction.

AncientPower
Except precedence has been set for sorcery killing stars and causing mass ritualistic death and planetary annihilation since the early '90s. The 'logic' is present in that this is an established sphere of ability within the Star Wars mythos, only capable of being weilded by the very greatest of sorcerers.

So the Sith Emperor being a league mile ahead of every single other sorcerer he has been in contention with, including Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos, is a pretty hefty sign that he's capable of things even they aren't capable of.

Him killing billions, if not trillions, to fuel a ritual that directly attacks, corrupts and assimilates the Force, thus wiping out life in a single galaxy, is a far more believable degree of power.

What Palpatine's storms are allegedly capable of, defies all common sense and logic, even within Star Wars itself. It isn't something we can just appeal to be beyond comprehension, when it's an outlier in the entire lore.

If we dismiss OCW and TFU so readily for being somehow beyond the norm, how the f#ck are we making an exception for an excerpt in a companion that flies in the face of the comic it is a companion for in the first place.

The Ellimist
It still begs the question of where you draw the line.

SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, I'm sensing a little delusion. Accepting something because of sorcery doesn't make it less fake. It's all magic, but a force storm isn't basic TK that can be quantified by how heavy the TK'd object is.

Call it sorcery or not, it's fake.

DarthAnt66
The difference is the ritual only would destroy one galaxy by using power that isn't Vitiate's to start with while Palpatine's would be with his own power and destroy an infinite number of galaxies.

The reason why one would be taken seriously and the other wouldn't be is pretty ****ing obviously.

The Ellimist
This precedent thing is also silly because Palpatine's Storms are sort of setting new precedent themselves, and are essentially the Magnus opus of the canonical most powerful sith of all time, who the Force needed to intervene against to defeat. There's no rational metric to say that this quote crosses some line and should be dismissed.

DarthAnt66
Nah.

AncientPower
A Force storm is a wormhole in space conjured by what Palpatine described as a perfect expression of his power, a final step up from Force maelstrom. The actual depictions of this power have suggested that the upper limit of this power can rend the surfaces of worlds.

I hope you comprehend the fact that such a power, such a wormhole, is a firecracker compared to the nuclear blast that is a super-massive black hole. A super-massive black hole can't even absorb the core of a galaxy, only create one by acting as the center. Yet some of these super-massive blackholes can be tens of thousands of times larger than the most massive suns in the universe.

So to suggest that such a relatively insignificant force of power as a Force generated storm, a wormhole, can even absorb a galaxy, nevermind the entire limitless universe, is absolutely COMICAL.

It doesn't even begin to compare to what a sorcery-based ritual can do to a single galaxy's life. Not even in the slightest realm of logic is that comparable.

Vitiate's ritual wouldn't even destroy the galaxy, only the life in the galaxy would die. Nothing suggests he's 'busting' a galaxy with that ritual.

The Ellimist
@Ant Nobody's saying Palpatine's storms aren't greater than Vitiate's. That doesn't answer the question. Vitiate's ritual is more extreme than Kaan and co.'s firestorm - so again, why can't I apply your logic to just dismiss it on face by shifting the line?

SIDIOUS 66
That's far from the point, Ant.

That part is simple. Palpatine is just well above Vitiate, but that's not where the line is to be drawn.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Ant Nobody's saying Palpatine's storms aren't greater than Vitiate's. That doesn't answer the question. Vitiate's ritual is more extreme than Kaan and co.'s firestorm - so again, why can't I apply your logic to just dismiss it on face by shifting the line?
Because there's not even the slightest of correlations between the surface of a planet and a galaxy and then a galaxy and a universe?

Limits are placed when the logic is stretched so thin that it snaps. thumb up

AncientPower
Can't believe I'm on your side, but I completely agree.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's far from the point, Ant.

That part is simple. Palpatine is just well above Vitiate, but that's not where the line is to be drawn.
Their difference in power being a planet (or a galaxy with a ritual) and then a universe?

I guess Palpatine was massively holding back his universe-busting powers when he lost to Skywalker in a duel.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by AncientPower
A Force storm is a wormhole in space conjured by what Palpatine described as a perfect expression of his power, a final step up from Force maelstrom. The actual depictions of this power have suggested that the upper limit of this power can rend the surfaces of worlds.

I hope you comprehend the fact that such a power, such a wormhole, is a firecracker compared to the nuclear blast that is a super-massive black hole. A super-massive black hole can't even absorb the core of a galaxy, only create one by acting as the center. Yet some of these super-massive blackholes can be tens of thousands of times larger than the most massive suns in the universe.

So to suggest that such a relatively insignificant force of power as a Force generated storm, a wormhole, can even absorb a galaxy, nevermind the entire limitless universe, is absolutely COMICAL.

It doesn't even begin to compare to what a sorcery-based ritual can do to a single galaxy's life. Not even in the slightest realm of logic is that comparable.

Vitiate's ritual wouldn't even destroy the galaxy, only the life in the galaxy would die. Nothing suggests he's 'busting' a galaxy with that ritual.


LMAO, okaay

DarthAnt66
I, surprisingly, thought her post was really good. Should I view your complete lack of rebuttal as a concession?

Well, you conceded your sanity when you started arguing Palpatine was a universe-buster*, but are you ready to do the same to your pride?

*Actually long before that, but that's not really the point.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Their difference in power being a planet (or a galaxy with a ritual) and then a universe?

I guess Palpatine was massively holding back his universe-busting powers when he lost to Skywalker in a duel.


Yeah, actually he was. Did you see Luke being swallowed up by such a thing?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because there's not even the slightest of correlations between the surface of a planet and a galaxy and then a galaxy and a universe?

Limits are placed when the logic is stretched so thin that it snaps. thumb up

You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I, surprisingly, thought her post was really good. Should I view your complete lack of rebuttal as a concession?

Well, you conceded your sanity when you started arguing Palpatine was a universe-buster*, but are you ready to do the same to your pride?

*Actually long before that, but that's not really the point.


Yeah, I'm surprised by her as well. Trying to draw real world physics to dispute a source and make sense of another because of sorcery is outright delusional. When Ell asked where the line is drawn, he didn't mean a power comparison. That's simple. There are fictional concepts of universe being wiped out. To explain such a phenomenon is beyond our ability to grasp, but so are characters that live forever, but in fiction there exists such characters.

You, I'm not surprised. But hopefully that tells you where we are with this.

AncientPower
Your lack of comprehension regarding precedence set in a mythos is pretty disturbing to be honest.

You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature?

Then not only are you not dismissing it, but you're ignoring the fact that it is completely off the ball from what we actually see in the comic itself. Then making a psuedo-fallacious appeal to incomprehensibility and ignoring the redundancy made by the inclusion of the fleet in the picture.

Is this seriously your argument? I can expect that from Gideon but not you.

AncientPower
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?

The scale of sorcery rituals within the Force, a galaxy-wide energy field =/= the scale of raw displays of Force prowess.

That is the contention here.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Your lack of comprehension regarding precedence set in a mythos is pretty disturbing to be honest.

You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature?

Then not only are you not dismissing it, but you're ignoring the fact that it is completely off the ball from what we actually see in the comic itself. Then making a psuedo-fallacious appeal to incomprehensibility and ignoring the redundancy made by the inclusion of the fleet in the picture.

Is this seriously your argument? I can expect that from Gideon but not you.


When have I dismissed any of it? If I did then I'd dismiss rituals altogether. Being a product of a ritual doesn't make it more real, nor does being less potent. If that's where you are trying to draw the line then it's not up to you do decide how powerful it's supposed to be based on it never happening. Up to that point, Palpatine hasn't displayed such a display of raw power period, not even one that can consume local space, so there is no contradiction other than you not liking a very explicit source.

In terms of logic, there is no line of reasoning that suggests becoming one with a galaxy via a ritual aided by trillions of simultaneous deaths is any more realistic than reality shattering storm that could have devoured everything. Logic doesn't support one over the other and neither does physics. So, again, where exactly are you trying to draw the line and what gives you the right?

AncientPower
Because draining the Force, via the Force, and thus killing all life in the galaxy, is a wholly different scale compared to literally destroying a limitless universe with limited energy to do so.

Syndicate
Sun your arguments gave me cancer.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Syndicate
Sun your arguments gave me cancer.

After those Starkiller arguments, you don't get to say that. lol

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
You seriously find the old Clone Wars series and the Force Unleashed games to be beyond the norm for power displays in the mythos, but Palpatine busting the universe is somehow the exception to that accepted forum rule, despite the fact that has to be the single biggest outlier accolade in all of Star Wars literature? Since when are these "forum rules" lel.

Nephthys
Are people seriously arguing that Sidious can destroy a universe because he's just that stronk? Is that serious? Is someone seriously so ****ing stupid they can't grasp the incalculable difference between a planet or even a galaxy and all of reality?

Because that's so ****ing retarded even Team America is boggling at all that AIDS.

Beniboybling
Compelling argument as always Neph.

Nephthys
Apologies, allow me try to put it in ways you might understand:

sDLx1QmPHb4

The_Tempest
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You still aren't answering the question, lmao. What is the line then? A galaxy? Ten? Twenty? And what is your justification for wherever you draw it? Because your disagreement aside, Vitiate's galaxy ritual seems pretty ridiculous next to Yoda lifting an X wing. Can I dismiss its validity then?

👍👍👍

Nephthys
The line has been pretty well drawn at maximum of affecting planets or causing planet-wide effects in the case of the most powerful non-entities, with your standard abilities. Rituals obviously can scale up to far larger than that or if you're using outside forces to amplify already potent powers. Sidious and Vitiates rituals and Sadows solar manipulations spring to mind.

Vitiate's ritual is ridiculously massive in scale, but he had prepped for it for a thousand years, was on an immensely powerful nexus and was being fueled by trillions of deaths from across the galaxy. He may also have been conducting it in some manner throughout all of the JK Act 3 as well, to be able to have harnessed the destruction on the various planets. It's still incredible, but it isn't completely implausible.

The idea that Sidious could cause infinitely greater destruction with a single standard attack is Arkham Asylum style crazy. To do stuff on levels greater than planetary clearly require rituals, time and immense aid.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Apologies, allow me try to put it in ways you might understand:

sDLx1QmPHb4 Your usual brand of crap then. smile

The_Tempest
I'm sticking with the Comic's Companion tbh. 👍

MS Warehouse
I'm glad S66 is back with his usual "Sidious is the best, prove me wrong!" arguments.

Comparing Palpatine's Force Storm to either of Vitiate's planet wide destruction "rituals" is funny.

The_Tempest
Well, he is right tbh.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, he is right tbh.

Yea not really.

The_Tempest
But he is. Really.

MS Warehouse
It's obviously very debatable, and if I used the same reasoning tactic, you wouldn't be able to "prove me wrong".

The_Tempest
Nah. S66 is right on the money about Sheev's supremacy. The case is just too strong tbh.

MS Warehouse
There is no "case". I wouldn't expect you to argue about this objectively so there's no point. We'll agree to disagree and I'll continue ridiculing s66's arguments. Would be a nice change of pace if they had some merit to them.

The_Tempest
I don't think you're a credible authority on objectivity regarding this issue tbh.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I don't think you're a credible authority on objectivity regarding this issue tbh.
Neither are you and that's the point, hence we agree to disagree thumb up

The_Tempest
Wouldn't that same logic compel you to "agree to disagree" with S66?

Otherwise you're ridiculing him for opinions that, by your own admission, you're too biased to evaluate objectively.

That's kinda hypocritical, innit?

MS Warehouse
Nope, because I don't think S66 is making valid arguments and instead employs the "prove me wrong" followed by "I'll keep typing until the opposition stops" tactics. So no, not hypocritical.

The_Tempest
Yeah but by your own admission, you can't evaluate his arguments objectively.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yeah but by your own admission, you can't evaluate his arguments objectively.

"Arguments" being the operative word. It's the same reason I don't respond to Legend's pro Vitiate/TOR arguments even if they fall in line with my outlook.

The Ellimist
The burden of proof shifts when one assertion is backed by canon statements.

Syndicate
Originally posted by SunRazer
After those Starkiller arguments, you don't get to say that. lol

The difference is that you were serious. xD

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The burden of proof shifts when one assertion is backed by canon statements.

Only when the canon statements are properly interpreted and in the proper context.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
"Arguments" being the operative word. It's the same reason I don't respond to Legend's pro Vitiate/TOR arguments even if they fall in line with my outlook.

The fact that you admit LeGenD's outlook aligns with yours should bring you naught but great shame.

Nephthys
Legends arguments are getting somewhat validated by Swtor expansions tbh.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Only when the canon statements are properly interpreted and in the proper context.

The more straightforward interpretation usually gets the benefit of the doubt. When a dozen different sources affirm Sidious's status as the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, it begs the imagination to come up with a different rationalization for each.

The_Tempest
Well you have to remember that, thanks to the SWTOR heretics, we've been ushered into an age where we can bluntly reject sources and quotes we don't like.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Legends arguments are getting somewhat validated by Swtor expansions tbh.

lol where?

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Only when the canon statements are properly interpreted and in the proper context.


Ok, now I know who you are.

Being the smart manly man you are, then interpret it for us properly.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well you have to remember that, thanks to the SWTOR heretics, we've been ushered into an age where we can bluntly reject sources and quotes we don't like.



lol where?

Well he was going on about how Vitiate couldn't be killed and how he was obviously capable of planet-busting and was vastly superior to everyone else in the era. Things that have been shown to be more or less true.

The_Tempest
Vitiate hasn't busted a planet and he did die via a sword to the back. And I don't think anyone denied he was the MVP of the era?

Leg's batting average is low, which is why everyone mocks him.

Including other members of the SWTOR crew.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The more straightforward interpretation usually gets the benefit of the doubt. When a dozen different sources affirm Sidious's status as the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, it begs the imagination to come up with a different rationalization for each. A dozen or so oou sources claiming sidioud is the best of the best? Really? Show me 5. It looks like there's more rationalization from the pro sidous crowd than anybody else.

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well you have to remember that, thanks to the SWTOR heretics, we've been ushered into an age where we can bluntly reject sources and quotes we don't like.



lol where? the antedeluvians and the pro sidioud fan base has been doing that for a decade. This is normal.

The Ellimist
@the "Vitiate's shit is a ritual" excuse: this still doesn't answer the question. Would you have been fine with a universe busting ritual of Sidious's? Would you have been fine with a star busting Force storm? No? What about a planet buster? Where do you draw the line, exactly?

The Ellimist
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
A dozen or so oou sources claiming sidioud is the best of the best? Really? Show me 5. It looks like there's more rationalization from the pro sidous crowd than anybody else.


Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

Vader: The Ultimate Guide




Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

The New Essential Chronology




Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

The Complete Visual Dictionary



When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm



Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

The_Tempest
lol

Sidious has been flat out called or implied to be the most powerful Sith ever more times and by a greater number of sources than any other Sith. Anyone who suggests otherwise is either a liar or ignorant of the source material.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
the antedeluvians and the pro sidioud fan base has been doing that for a decade. This is normal.

Nah. Neph's response to the Comics Companion quote was, verbatim I think, "I refuse to acknowledge that." erm

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