Apocalypse vs. Dr. Manhattan

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Impediment
Fight takes place in Times Square at night.

100 feet apart. No BFR, PIS and CIS off, to the death.

Time-Immemorial
DM Shit Stomps

Impediment
What about mental attacks from Apoc?

jaden101
Originally posted by Impediment
What about mental attacks from Apoc?

He....can't do them?

Wasn't that the entire reason he needed Xavier in the first place?

Impediment
Confession time: I have yet to see the new film. I made a thread cuz I'm bored, stuck in a motel 20 miles from the Mexican border. stick out tongue

Time-Immemorial
HAHAHA

Impediment
So Apoc was gonna transfer his consciousness into Xavier's body to have mental powers, as well as his other powers?

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Impediment
So Apoc was gonna transfer his consciousness into Xavier's body to have mental powers, as well as his other powers?

Yup

jaden101
Originally posted by Impediment
So Apoc was gonna transfer his consciousness into Xavier's body to have mental powers, as well as his other powers?

Yeah. The intro has him transferring into someone with Wolverine type healing and it states that over time every time he has transferred into a new host he keeps all his old powers and takes theirs as well.

Darkstorm Zero
Jaden, TI... I have seen the movie. And unless you can prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was not TP, then please, don't go spreading false information.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Jaden, TI... I have seen the movie. And unless you can prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was not TP, then please, don't go spreading false information. Except the burden of proof is on you to prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was TP. Take your own advice and stop spreading false information. Apoc is not telepathic.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Except the burden of proof is on you to prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was TP. Take your own advice and stop spreading false information. Apoc is not telepathic.

Except that I have posted the proof numerous times. There is no reason to assume what Apoc did was not TP. At all. Give me a counter Arachnid, because Apoc clearly demonstrated it twice onscreen, and you can't say it's not.

Time-Immemorial
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Jaden, TI... I have seen the movie. And unless you can prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was not TP, then please, don't go spreading false information.

I have seen the movie and more times then you. Unless you can prove definitely that what Apoc did to Xavier is TP please don't go around spreading false information. You are literally the only person in the thread who is saying different.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I have seen the movie and more times then you. Unless you can prove definitely that what Apoc did to Xavier is TP please don't go around spreading false information. You are literally the only person in the thread who is saying different. This. Once again, the burden of proof is on you. If you posted it, copy and paste because you haven't in this thread.

jaden101
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Jaden, TI... I have seen the movie. And unless you can prove definitively that what Apoc did to Xavier was not TP, then please, don't go spreading false information.

Are you referring to Apoc beating Xavier in the mind battle? That was Xavier entering Apoc's mind. Apoc states that he needed Xavier's powers to connect to the rest of the world. During the attempt to transfer into Xavier it left a link that allowed Xavier to attack Apoc telepathically.

DrDeadpool
I love both of them and Dr Manhattan wins.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
I have seen the movie and more times then you. Unless you can prove definitely that what Apoc did to Xavier is TP please don't go around spreading false information. You are literally the only person in the thread who is saying different.

Ok, I am going to break this down into a series of Q&As, because you have changed your mind numerous times regarding this TI.

Question: what do you think Apoc did?

Answer: I mixture of technopathy and something else that is more obscure.

Ok, lets explore this. Technopathy, which Apoc demonstrated twice prior to mindhacking Charles, required touch both times The first in the pyramid at the start of the movie, and the second time on the TV. Ok, next question.

Question: If it's technopathy, how did he mindhack Charles via double proxy?

Answer: Derp.

He never even laid eyes on Cerebro, never mind touched the thing for technopathy to work, AND he had to mindhack Erik in order to get at Charles and Cerebro, then he had to hold the connection before Xavier, an actual Telepath could cut him off, which would be trivially easy if Apoc had no TP.

Here's the thing gentlemen, Apoc had TP. He'd have to have had it because without it, Xavier would have punked him 3 times in mental battles.

Time-Immemorial
He flat out said he didn't have TP hence why he wanted Charles body.

Im not getting into this with you again.

DM atomizes him.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ok, I am going to break this down into a series of Q&As, because you have changed your mind numerous times regarding this TI.

Question: what do you think Apoc did?

Answer: I mixture of technopathy and something else that is more obscure.

Ok, lets explore this. Technopathy, which Apoc demonstrated twice prior to mindhacking Charles, required touch both times The first in the pyramid at the start of the movie, and the second time on the TV. Ok, next question.

Question: If it's technopathy, how did he mindhack Charles via double proxy?

Answer: Derp.

He never even laid eyes on Cerebro, never mind touched the thing for technopathy to work, AND he had to mindhack Erik in order to get at Charles and Cerebro, then he had to hold the connection before Xavier, an actual Telepath could cut him off, which would be trivially easy if Apoc had no TP.

Here's the thing gentlemen, Apoc had TP. He'd have to have had it because without it, Xavier would have punked him 3 times in mental battles. Xaviers been resisted by people with a resistance to telepaths like Magneto in comics multiple times, so it's not unheard of. Resisting/blocking telepaths was also shown to be one of the abilties he has, as he explained to Xavier in the movie. If he was a telepath, he would have been able to stop Magneto and the Xmen just by taking control. The fight would have been over.

Every instance people have claimed Apoc was a telepath was an instance of him being linked, in some way, to Xavier whether he was doing it directly or through his horsemen who he is already linked to. Why not anyone else? There's not one definitive instance of him using tp without a doubt like there is for Xavier or Jean multiple times. There was never one instance of him flat out just taking control of someone or mindphucking them into submission. The biggest part of this is the fact that he so desperately needed Xaviers powers. If he had his powers already, why would he need Xaviers? This is a huge plot point, and it makes no sense if he's already a telepath. For the thousandth time to everyone, he does not have TP.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Xaviers been resisted by people with a resistance to telepaths like Magneto in comics multiple times, so it's not unheard of. Resisting/blocking telepaths was also shown to be one of the abilties he has, as he explained to Xavier in the movie. If he was a telepath, he would have been able to stop Magneto and the Xmen just by taking control. The fight would have been over.

Every instance people have claimed Apoc was a telepath was an instance of him being linked, in some way, to Xavier whether he was doing it directly or through his horsemen who he is already linked to. Why not anyone else? There's not one definitive instance of him using tp without a doubt like there is for Xavier or Jean multiple times. There was never one instance of him flat out just taking control of someone or mindphucking them into submission. The biggest part of this is the fact that he so desperately needed Xaviers powers. If he had his powers already, why would he need Xaviers? This is a huge plot point, and it makes no sense if he's already a telepath.

So your retreating back into comic domain in a movie discussion? What does that have to do with the price of fish in Tokyo?

EXPLAIN The link then Arachnid? Because doing what he did THROUGH Erik is still a massive TP feat that you cannot handwave away.

I already explained this, but here we go again. Xavier's powers have a much broader RANGE than Apocs does. Apoc's powers are localised, focused, not nearly as far reaching as Charles powers. In a modern world, where you can subjugate the entire world's population with a thought, Charles's reach would be ideal. Apoc's range is no greater than Emma frosts was in First Class, but his TP STRENGTH is far greater.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So your retreating back into comic domain in a movie discussion? What does that have to do with the price of fish in Tokyo?

EXPLAIN The link then Arachnid? Because doing what he did THROUGH Erik is still a massive TP feat that you cannot handwave away.

I already explained this, but here we go again. Xavier's powers have a much broader RANGE than Apocs does. Apoc's powers are localised, focused, not nearly as far reaching as Charles powers. In a modern world, where you can subjugate the entire world's population with a thought, Charles's reach would be ideal. Apoc's range is no greater than Emma frosts was in First Class, but his TP STRENGTH is far greater. No, I'm not retreating into comic domain. I'm using that as an example. I clearly stated that it's part of Apocs abilities, which he explained.

Apoc stated he is linked to his Horsemen. He gives them their powers, transforms their bodies, and develops some kind of power link to them. I obviously cant scientifically explain a fictional ability, but this link was how he got at Xavier through Mags.

But he never uses this apparently super powerful TP on anyone else besides Xavier when he tries to mindphuck him. Isn't that a bit strange to you? It suggests that the telepath has to establish the link, and Apoc just defends using his own resistance.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
No, I'm not retreating into comic domain. I'm using that as an example. I clearly stated that it's part of Apocs abilities, which he explained.

Apoc stated he is linked to his Horsemen. He gives them their powers, transforms their bodies, and develops some kind of power link to them. I obviously cant scientifically explain a fictional ability, but this link was how he got at Xavier through Mags.

But he never uses this apparently super powerful TP on anyone else besides Xavier when he tries to mindphuck him. Isn't that a bit strange to you? It suggests that the telepath has to establish the link, and Apoc just defends using his own resistance.

http://xmenmovies.wikia.com/wiki/Apocalypse

OD0v9kvlMOA

It's all in there. You don't have a leg to stand on.

That doesn't allow a handwaive explanation to say that not only does Apoc's suposedly superior mental defences to literally OVERCOME Charles so completely he becomes brainslaved to Apoc for 5 minutes while Apoc rids the world of nukes, makes a global announcement, and makes charles shitscared all in one go.

It sugests to me that Apoc has more than one way to **** people over, which is true. He TPs the telepaths to prove he can beat them at their own game. He disintegrates fools who stand in his way. he beats down speedsters at his leisure. He flashfries the projectiles of lesser mutants with his shields. The only one who bested Apoc directly was Phoenix. End of story.

My question now is this. Why does Apoc having demonstratable TP vex so many people? Is it because of these damn vs matches? for gods sake people. He did the feats, it's on screen. get over it and move on.

Time-Immemorial
Wikis don't count as screen feats in the mvf.

Arachnid1
Because he does NOT have the feats. He does not have one instance of irrefutable displayed TP like Xavier and Jean do at multiple points. His only instances that could be interpreted as TP can be explained by a link to another telepath. Also, don't provide a link to wiki as proof.

And you saying he has other ways of phucking people over and thats why he chooses not to use TP is a poor argument. Especially at the end when he was getting overwhelmed. If he had TP, he'd just take control of Mags or Quicksilver and slaughter them all. If he had TP, he wouldn't have to convince his horsemen to join him with promises of power and a better future. If he had TP, he wouldn't have gotten betrayed both in the past and present by his subjects. If he had TP, he'd use it constantly as an insta-win against anyone but Xavier, but instead he never uses it against anyone else. If he was a telepath, he could just teleport over, kill Xavier, and use Cerbro to just amp his own abilities.

There are so many different ways the movie would have gone down if he had TP, but he doesn't, and never displayed an irrefutable instance of using it that couldn't be explained by a different cause. Until he does, it is not part of his power set.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Wikis don't count as screen feats in the mvf.

On their own, no. But they corroborate by explaining which scenes he used the powers in, which reinforces my point.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Because he does NOT have the feats. He does not have one instance of irrefutable displayed TP like Xavier and Jean do at multiple points. His only instances that could be interpreted as TP can be explained by a link to another telepath. Also, don't provide a link to wiki as proof.

And you saying he has other ways of phucking people over and thats why he chooses not to use TP is a poor argument. Especially at the end when he was getting overwhelmed. If he had TP, he'd just take control of Mags or Quicksilver and slaughter them all. If he had TP, he wouldn't have to convince his horsemen to join him with promises of power and a better future. If he had TP, he wouldn't have gotten betrayed both in the past and present by his subjects. If he had TP, he'd use it constantly as an insta-win against anyone but Xavier, but instead he never uses it against anyone else. If he was a telepath, he could just teleport over, kill Xavier, and use Cerbro to just amp his own abilities.

There are so many different ways the movie would have gone down if he had TP, but he doesn't, and never displayed an irrefutable instance of using it that couldn't be explained by a different cause. Until he does, it is not part of his power set.

He never had a link directly to Charles. His only link was to Erik, so he'd still need to overwhelm Xavier's TP to get in, and you can't do that without TP. The Wiki, on it's own, is not proof, but it corroborates the scenes in which the powers are used. It's no different than you trying to prove the opposite with nothing but words anyway.

The ending scene, do you remember exactly what Apoc was doing? Because IIRC, he was physically holding off 4 physical assaults from Mags, Scott, Storm and Hank, While at the same time mentally fighting Xavier. Yeah, lets use the most distracted moment, while already in a TP battle, to.... say he doesn't have TP.... Makes sense.

That is awful, awful logic, and you should never have argued it. 'Coulda Woulda Shoulda' is not indispensable evidence.

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He never had a link directly to Charles. His only link was to Erik, so he'd still need to overwhelm Xavier's TP to get in, and you can't do that without TP. The Wiki, on it's own, is not proof, but it corroborates the scenes in which the powers are used. It's no different than you trying to prove the opposite with nothing but words anyway.

The ending scene, do you remember exactly what Apoc was doing? Because IIRC, he was physically holding off 4 physical assaults from Mags, Scott, Storm and Hank, While at the same time mentally fighting Xavier. Yeah, lets use the most distracted moment, while already in a TP battle, to.... say he doesn't have TP.... Makes sense.

That is awful, awful logic, and you should never have argued it. 'Coulda Woulda Shoulda' is not indispensable evidence. Charles linked to Erik in that scene before Apoc interfered. That was how Apoc was indirectly linked to Xavier.

He wasn't just holding off that assault. He was absolutely effortlessly destroying Xavier in his own domain. Not much effort to hold off. Now lets say we ignore that scene all together. It still doesn't explain him never actually using TP against anyone like Jean and Xavier did multiple times. He only started his battle with Xavier those last minutes, but what about the rest of the movie? This is perfect logic. It would be his most useful and powerful ability, if he's more powerful than Xavier like you claimed. Theres no reason not to use it and take control of Quicksilver when he was being blitzed to hell for example. There's no reason for him to have to logically convince his horsemen to join him.

The main reason I'm arguing against it is because he wasn't shown to use TP offensively in his fights with anyone. If we give him TP on these forums, it's an insta-win for him in just about every encounter, even though it wasn't an instawin for him in every encounter in the movie. If he had it, he'd use it.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Charles linked to Erik in that scene before Apoc interfered. That was how Apoc was indirectly linked to Xavier.

He wasn't just holding off that assault. He was absolutely effortlessly destroying Xavier in his own domain. Not much effort to hold off. Now lets say we ignore that scene all together. It still doesn't explain him never actually using TP against anyone like Jean and Xavier did multiple times. He only started his battle with Xavier those last minutes, but what about the rest of the movie? This is perfect logic. It would be his most useful and powerful ability, if he's more powerful than Xavier like you claimed. Theres no reason not to use it and take control of Quicksilver when he was being blitzed to hell for example. There's no reason for him to have to logically convince his horsemen to join him.

The main reason I'm arguing against it is because he wasn't shown to use TP offensively in his fights with anyone. If we give him TP on these forums, it's an insta-win for him in just about every encounter, even though it wasn't an instawin for him in every encounter in the movie. If he had it, he'd use it.

Your arguing semantics and a case of PIS. The problem is the plot. It's not my fault that even though Apoc has TP, he doesn't always use it, that is a problem of the writing. They gave Apoc an absolute plethora of high end exotic powers, and they probably needed to showcase them all. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He has shown it, therefore it is there, and the majority of people agree.

And there, you just admitted it was for the sake of these vs matches. It's not for lack of showing, its because, like Onslaught, TP is a pretty hax power to have. But, like Onslaught, Apoc doesn't always use the power, even at every given opportunity.

Time-Immemorial
DM slaughters him

Darkstorm Zero
Thats because DR.M is even more uber.

carthage
Apocalypse has already shown molecular disintegration can overload his shields. Manhattan should take it based on that.

BruceSkywalker
Originally posted by Impediment
Confession time: I have yet to see the new film. I made a thread cuz I'm bored, stuck in a motel 20 miles from the Mexican border. stick out tongue


watch porn... lol



anyways Doc obliterates with ease

Arachnid1
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your arguing semantics and a case of PIS. The problem is the plot. It's not my fault that even though Apoc has TP, he doesn't always use it, that is a problem of the writing. They gave Apoc an absolute plethora of high end exotic powers, and they probably needed to showcase them all. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He has shown it, therefore it is there, and the majority of people agree.

And there, you just admitted it was for the sake of these vs matches. It's not for lack of showing, its because, like Onslaught, TP is a pretty hax power to have. But, like Onslaught, Apoc doesn't always use the power, even at every given opportunity. Well yeah, this is a versus forum. Doesn't it make sense to argue power sets? This is really the only place it makes sense, and it happens in every thread. Anyway, it doesn't matter why I arguing. The argument is still valid. Bottom line is Apoc was never shown using TP offensively. For that reason, its not a valid argument on these forums. Maybe that will change in a future installment, but for now he does not have TP.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Well yeah, this is a versus forum. Doesn't it make sense to argue power sets? This is really the only place it makes sense, and it happens in every thread. Anyway, it doesn't matter why I arguing. The argument is still valid. Bottom line is Apoc was never shown using TP offensively. For that reason, its not a valid argument on these forums. Maybe that will change in a future installment, but for now he does not have TP.

Sorry, but Apoc jacking Xavier and Cerebro through Erik is still offensive, still TP, and still valid. You can't dismiss this.

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