Name the Top 10 Most Lanterns - Any Color

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"Id"
Who and why are the top 5 most powerful Lanterns of any color or corp?

Example:

1) Classic Parallax
2) Classic Ion
3) Sinestro with Life Entity
4) White Lantern Kyle w/Life Equation
5) Volthoom
6) Krona w/All the Entities
etc..

Zack M
Atrocitus as Butcher.

"Id"
Didn't do anything.

"Id"
You know what Zack? Why don't you drop us your dc knowledge on us and compile a full list before anyone else? I know you read the comics too and not just look at pictures.

Zack M
Sure.

1. Zero Hour Parallax
2. Priest Lantern
3. White Lantern Kyle
4. Butcher
5. Renegade Hal
6. Sinestro (Parallax)
7. Ion
8. Black Lantern
9. Volthoom
10. Ion 2

Cogito
Basically everything that had to do with the White Lanterns and the Life entity was very situational - being the antithesis of Nekron/Black Lanterns. I don't recall enough in the way of combat feats that would put them really even on a top tier list. In theory, sure, but not necessarily in practice.

The list obviously starts with ZH Parallax and Ion I, who ought to be relative equals. Way below them would be Volthoom, then Krona w/ Entities (or Hal alone, if you want to go there). Then there's another large power gap before we get to some real arguments.

(I'm limiting this to relatively modern history here)

Pre-Rebirth Kyle had some crazy feats that were arguably better than anything done by even Lanterns w/ entities in the Johns era. Other high level non-hosts include Hal (going full Krona-buster mode), Mogo, Cyborg Supes w/ 10 rings, Black Hand (especially w/ access to decent beings to resurrect e.g. Source Wall), etc.

Then there's all the hosts post-Rebirth, who are woefully disappointing and in most cases probably below those regular lanterns I just mentioned.

You can argue this list a lot, but it's a very difficult question because so much has changed, there's a lot of inconsistencies, hype, plot power, character (read: Hal) wanking, entitiy ruining, etc.

And, by Rebirth I mean GL: Rebirth, not the current reboot going on, of course.

Cogito
Originally posted by Zack M
Sure.

1. Zero Hour Parallax
2. Priest Lantern
3. White Lantern Kyle
4. Butcher
5. Renegade Hal
6. Sinestro (Parallax)
7. Ion
8. Black Lantern
9. Volthoom
10. Ion 2

Surely you don't mean Ion I (Kyle) at 7?

Badabing
1. Guy Gardner

2-10. Those not Guy Gardner

"Id"
There is that time when Hal became the God Of light. Where would he be ranked.

And I think Larfleeze makes the list too.

Sentinel when gained the full power of the Starheart.

Zack M
God of Light>>Parallax, IMO.

"Id"
Originally posted by Zack M
God of Light>>Parallax, IMO.
What about pre and post flash point Alan Scott?

Zack M
Does Alan really count? He's not part of the electro emotional spectrum.

Zack M
BTW, Mogo should be in the top 10.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
The list obviously starts with ZH Parallax and Ion I, who ought to be relative equals. While it's true they both possessed the complete power of the CB, Parallax had also absorbed some of the residual energy left over from the original Crisis:
http://i.imgur.com/bMHkprW.jpg
ie. ZH Parallax >> Ion I.



On that note, it is absolutely unreal how much power AM was generating during COIE. Hell, that energy is also what the nigh-omnipotent Infinite Man absorbed to further empower himself:
http://i.imgur.com/ypeQH2T.jpg

...And said energy is also what ultimately undid him:
http://i.imgur.com/6zuuVdB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lmk2Yk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M4qjKXM.jpg


Crazy. messed

Zack M
Originally posted by Galan007
While it's true they both possessed the complete power of the CB, Parallax had also absorbed some of the residual energy left over from the original Crisis:
http://i.imgur.com/bMHkprW.jpg
ie. ZH Parallax >> Ion I.



On that note, it is absolutely unreal how much power AM was generating during COIE. Hell, that energy is also what the nigh-omnipotent Infinite Man absorbed to further empower himself:
http://i.imgur.com/ypeQH2T.jpg

...And said energy is also what ultimately undid him:
http://i.imgur.com/6zuuVdB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lmk2Yk5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M4qjKXM.jpg


Crazy. messed

What about God of Light Hal Vs Zero Hour Parallax?

Cogito
Originally posted by "Id"
There is that time when Hal became the God Of light. Where would he be ranked.

And I think Larfleeze makes the list too.

Sentinel when gained the full power of the Starheart.

God of Light is somewhere between Ion I and Volthoom based on not having enough feats.

Larf probably makes the list, but only at the very bottom. He's just not smart enough and his best feats are off panel (e.g. killing Controllers, first fight against that other angel guy I can't remember the name of)

Sentinel is not really a Lantern.

Originally posted by Galan007
While it's true they both possessed the complete power of the CB, Parallax had also absorbed some of the residual energy left over from the original Crisis:
http://i.imgur.com/bMHkprW.jpg
ie. ZH Parallax >> Ion I.

I said roughly wink

In theory, ZH Parallax also contained both Ion (having absorbed the GL Central Battery and the Parallax entity, though those ideas weren't fleshed out at the time. There's no good reason to believe Hal was tapping into the powers of Parallax at the time, though, separate from the Central Battery energies.

Ion I had some uber feats, and Hal-Spectre basically told him flat out he had the power to do what ZH Parallax wanted to do but that he probably shouldn't. That's why Kyle gave the power back and recreated the Corps.

Galan007
I'd put GoL Hal around Ion I-level, given that he was implied to be a full-fledged universal power... Just like Kyle/Ion.

ZH Parallax, however, actually caused entire timelineS and realitieS to be created and destroyed as a corollary of his actions:
http://i.imgur.com/GDTC3YY.jpg
IOW, he was solidly beyond universal, thus should be solidly beyond GoL Hal.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
I said roughly wink

In theory, ZH Parallax also contained both Ion (having absorbed the GL Central Battery and the Parallax entity, though those ideas weren't fleshed out at the time. There's no good reason to believe Hal was tapping into the powers of Parallax at the time, though, separate from the Central Battery energies.

Ion I had some uber feats, and Hal-Spectre basically told him flat out he had the power to do what ZH Parallax wanted to do but that he probably shouldn't. That's why Kyle gave the power back and recreated the Corps. You said "relative equals". stick out tongue

Anywho, Ion was definitely powerful, but Parallax had that exact same power + the energy he absorbed from COIE. He's comfortably beyond Kyle, and where feats are concerned, comfortably at the top of the 'most powerful Lantern' list. Imo. thumb up

"Id"
GoL Hal is in the same ball park or greater than Ion 1. But as the featless wonder we do not know how much higher was his power bumped, thanks to his New God tech and status.

When I said lanterns of all colors it extended it to those wielding Starheart since he is a lantern and power ring user. We allow the Black Lantern on the list, and he is not part of the emotional spectrum, why should we not extend this to Alan Scott.

Surtur
Originally posted by Zack M
Sure.

1. Zero Hour Parallax
2. Priest Lantern
3. White Lantern Kyle
4. Butcher
5. Renegade Hal
6. Sinestro (Parallax)
7. Ion
8. Black Lantern
9. Volthoom
10. Ion 2

For my part I wouldn't consider Zero Hour Parallax a lantern at all. That goes for any version of a lantern amped up massively.

riv6672
Originally posted by "Id"
You know what Zack? Why don't you drop us your dc knowledge on us and compile a full list before anyone else...
In my head you sounded like my old HS school history teacher when he was talking to the annoying kid in class who thought he knew everything. laughing out loud

1. Hal
2. Alan
3. Guy
4. John
5. Sodam

"Id"
Most powerful Lanterns

1) Parallax (Zero Hour)
2) God Of Light
3) Classic Ion

Galan007
Here is my list. I'm sure some of the Lanterns can be flip-flopped based on personal opinion and such, but whatevs.... I had fun putting this together. big grin


1.) Zero Hour Parallax - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies + residual energy he absorbed from the events of COIE. He inadvertently created/destroyed multiple timelines during his tirade, before destroying the 'prime' timeline/universe in its entirety. He then began recreating the prime universe anew in his own image, before he was ultimately stopped by Corrigan-Spectre along with a laundry list of additional plot-device characters. He was well beyond universal.

2.) White Lantern Kyle (peak) - after merging with ALL of the emotional entities, he was able to transcend the Source Wall, and use said energy to renew/restore the entire universe, thereby saving it from imminent destruction/collapse. He was definitively universal.

3.) God of Light Hal - his power was almost exclusively statement/accolade-based. However, the Mother Box merged him with the totality of the CB's energies, which would have theoretically given him absolute mastery over said power. He also had complete control of the Mother Box/Ring itself, which Johns(and various other writers) have portrayed as abstract-esque tech all by itself. He appeared to be universal.

4.) Ion I - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies, and among many other feats, the ability to restructure the universe/timeline to his whim(confirmed by Spectre.) He appeared to be universal.

5.) Volthoom - the first ever Lantern, created billionS of years ago. Had mastery of all the emotional energy in the spectrum. Was capable of generating new timelines for specific characters at less that full power. He was beyond EVERY Lantern Corps(inc. the Guardians), and required direct intervention from Nekron himself to finally be destroyed--and that was after Black Lantern Hal absorbed the entirety of his energy. Anyway, Volthoom could have remade the entire universe at his peak, but he never quite got there. He was sub-universal, with the ability to become fully universal.

6.) White Lantern Sinestro - was able to give Nekron a great fight in the time he wielded the White Light. His upper-limits were undefined.

7.) Hal /w/ Krona's Gauntlet - his power was originally likened to a dozen GL rings. However, the Gauntlet has since transformed Hal into a construct comprised of pure, unharnessed thought/expression/will. In this 'form', he proved to be > an alternate-universe version of himself(ie. Parallax), who was stated to wield the power of his universe's CB. His upper-limits weren't fully defined before he seemingly shed that form in the recent Hal Jordan/GLC: Rebirth issue.

8.) Larfleeze - he alone wields the power of an entire Corps, and in fact, has literally become an organic Battery for the Orange Light itself. Moreover, his Battery contains FAR more energy than all of the other Corps, because he has conserved it for billionS of years, whereas the other Corps have continuously squandered their Light(s) on various tasks over the eons. His upper-limits are undefined.

9.) Sinestrollax - merged with the Parallax entity itself, and appeared to have full control over it. His upper-limits were undefined.

10.) Ion II - had a direct link to the CB + the entirety of the Starheart, after absorbing it from Jade in the wake of her death. His upper-limits were undefined.

11.) Mogo - given that he is a friggin planet, Mogo has always proven himself to be an absolute BEAST, of whom is typically portrayed well beyond the other Lanterns... Him killing of thousandS of Black Lanterns was certainly indicative of such. I just had to include him, lol.



*My list excludes true 'dues ex' characters, such as:
-Peak Johns-era Hal, who is a bonafide abstract-buster when needed.
-Black Hand /w/ Ring, given that he can absorb ALL emotional energy--this potentially enables him to trump the entire emotional spectrum.
-Guardians, because they aren't Lanterns in the typical sense.

Zack M
Originally posted by Galan007
Here is my list. I'm sure some of the Lanterns can be flip-flopped based on personal opinion and such, but whatevs.... I had fun putting this together. big grin


1.) Zero Hour Parallax - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies + residual energy he absorbed from the events of COIE. He inadvertently created/destroyed multiple timelines during his tirade, before destroying the 'prime' timeline/universe in its entirety. He then began recreating the prime universe anew in his own image, before he was ultimately stopped by Corrigan-Spectre along with a laundry list of additional plot-device characters. He was well beyond universal.

2.) White Lantern Kyle (peak) - after merging with ALL of the emotional entities, he was able to transcend the Source Wall, and use said energy to renew/restore the entire universe, thereby saving it from imminent destruction/collapse. He was definitively universal.

3.) God of Light Hal - his power was almost exclusively statement/accolade-based. However, the Mother Box merged him with the totality of the CB's energies, which would have theoretically given him absolute mastery over said power. He also had complete control of the Mother Box/Ring itself, which Johns(and various other writers) have portrayed as abstract-esque tech all by itself. He appeared to be universal.

4.) Ion I - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies, and among many other feats, the ability to restructure the universe/timeline to his whim(confirmed by Spectre.) He appeared to be universal.

5.) Volthoom - the first ever Lantern, created billionS of years ago. Had mastery of all the emotional energy in the spectrum. Was capable of generating new timelines for specific characters at less that full power. He was beyond EVERY Lantern Corps(inc. the Guardians), and required direct intervention from Nekron himself to finally be destroyed--and that was after Black Lantern Hal absorbed the entirety of his energy. Anyway, Volthoom could have remade the entire universe at his peak, but he never quite got there. He was sub-universal, with the ability to become fully universal.

6.) White Lantern Sinestro - was able to give Nekron a great fight in the time he wielded the White Light. His upper-limits were undefined.

7.) Hal /w/ Krona's Gauntlet - his power was originally likened to a dozen GL rings. However, the Gauntlet has since transformed Hal into a construct comprised of pure, unharnessed thought/expression/will. In this 'form', he proved to be > an alternate-universe version of himself(ie. Parallax), who was stated to wield the power of his universe's CB. His upper-limits weren't fully defined before he seemingly shed that form in the recent Hal Jordan/GLC: Rebirth issue.

8.) Larfleeze - he alone wields the power of an entire Corps, and in fact, has literally become an organic Battery for the Orange Light itself. Moreover, his Battery contains FAR more energy than all of the other Corps, because he has conserved it for billionS of years, whereas the other Corps have continuously squandered their Light(s) on various tasks over the eons. His upper-limits are undefined.

9.) Sinestrollax - merged with the Parallax entity itself, and appeared to have full control over it. His upper-limits were undefined.

10.) Ion II - had a direct link to the CB + the entirety of the Starheart, after absorbing it from Jade in the wake of her death. His upper-limits were undefined.

11.) Mogo - given that he is a friggin planet, Mogo has always proven himself to be an absolute BEAST, of whom is typically portrayed well beyond the other Lanterns... Him killing of thousandS of Black Lanterns was certainly indicative of such. I just had to include him, lol.



*My list excludes true 'dues ex' characters, such as:
-Peak Johns-era Hal, who is a bonafide abstract-buster when needed.
-Black Hand /w/ Ring, given that he can absorb ALL emotional energy--this potentially enables him to trump the entire emotional spectrum.
-Guardians, because they aren't Lanterns in the typical sense.

thumb up Nice list.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
2.) White Lantern Kyle (peak) - after merging with ALL of the emotional entities, he was able to transcend the Source Wall, and use said energy to renew/restore the entire universe, thereby saving it from imminent destruction/collapse. He was definitively universal. This is a serious stretch, IMO.

I mean, yeah, what you mentioned happened. He breached the Source Wall (a task that seems to be much easier nowadays than it used to be) and replenished the emotional reservoir, thereby saving the universe from an untimely death.

However, the power that he displayed was not universal. He wasn't even implied to be capable of (at least universal level) reality warping that GoL Hal and Ion I were said to be casually capable of.

Meh

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
This is a serious stretch, IMO.

I mean, yeah, what you mentioned happened. He breached the Source Wall (a task that seems to be much easier nowadays than it used to be) and replenished the emotional reservoir, thereby saving the universe from an untimely death.

However, the power that he displayed was not universal. He wasn't even implied to be capable of (at least universal level) reality warping that GoL Hal and Ion I were said to be casually capable of.

Meh
I like how "saving the universe" from imminent destruction isn't a universal feat.

thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
This is a serious stretch, IMO.

I mean, yeah, what you mentioned happened. He breached the Source Wall (a task that seems to be much easier nowadays than it used to be) and replenished the emotional reservoir, thereby saving the universe from an untimely death.

However, the power that he displayed was not universal. He wasn't even implied to be capable of (at least universal level) reality warping that GoL Hal and Ion I were said to be casually capable of.

Meh I'm not stretching his power at all. Kyle was not only *implied* to be universal, but actually *displayed* full-on universal power by restoring the universe's energies, thereby saving it from utter destruction... And he also returned from beyond the Source Wall, but that's another feat entirely.

And again: I'm talking about *peak* WL Kyle -- after merging with ALL of the entities..

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not stretching his power at all. Kyle was not only *implied* to be universal, but actually *displayed* full-on universal power by restoring the universe's energies, thereby saving it from utter destruction... And he also returned from beyond the Source Wall, but that's another feat entirely.

And again: I'm talking about *peak* WL Kyle -- after merging with ALL of the entities..

I understand your point, and I would just be bumping that version of Kyle down to #4 and moving current 3-4 up.

For me, I'd need to see more direct proof that he restored all of the universes dying energies in full rather than a portion of the universes energies without which the universe could not continue surviving.

i.e. he restored the emotional spectrum, but he did not create/manipulate the stars and galaxies, life, abstract concepts, etc. Therefore what he did was, to me, sub-universal in nature as he neither created nor destroyed a universe in full.

You may feel free to disagree thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
I understand your point, and I would just be bumping that version of Kyle down to #4 and moving current 3-4 up.

For me, I'd need to see more direct proof that he restored all of the universes dying energies in full rather than a portion of the universes energies without which the universe could not continue surviving.

i.e. he restored the emotional spectrum, but he did not create/manipulate the stars and galaxies, life, abstract concepts, etc. Therefore what he did was, to me, sub-universal in nature as he neither created nor destroyed a universe in full.

You may feel free to disagree thumb up Well, I do have to disagree.

When the emotional reservoir in Relic's previous universe was depleted, the entire universe collapsed into a void of nothingness:
http://i.imgur.com/H3LFKF5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zb8KuAT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FLCr2T6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lr11YUW.jpg

That's how Relic knew what would happen if the emotional reservoir in the current DCU would have depleted(which was dangerously close to happening.) He specifically noted that the emotional reservoir "powers creation":
http://i.imgur.com/jE2ENlx.jpg

That's why the Guardians themselves stated: "to tamper with the Entities is to tamper with reality itself!":
http://i.imgur.com/kTampZd.jpg

So when WL Kyle transcended the Source Wall and refilled the emotional reservoir, he prevented the utter destruction/nullification/collapse of his entire universe, by essentially repowering/recharging the whole of creation(stars, galaxies, abstract concepts and all). That is undoubtedly a universal feat.

abhilegend
It will make emotional entities pretty much abstracts in power and we can't have that, can we?

And the entire creation crumbled after the reservoir was drained. Not just one universe.

thumb up

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Well, I do have to disagree.

When the emotional reservoir in Relic's previous universe was depleted, the entire universe collapsed into a void of nothingness:
http://i.imgur.com/H3LFKF5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zb8KuAT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FLCr2T6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lr11YUW.jpg

That's how Relic knew what would happen if the emotional reservoir in the current DCU would have depleted(which was dangerously close to happening.) He specifically noted that the emotional reservoir "powers creation":
http://i.imgur.com/jE2ENlx.jpg

That's why the Guardians themselves stated: "to tamper with the Entities is to tamper with reality itself!":
http://i.imgur.com/kTampZd.jpg

So when WL Kyle transcended the Source Wall and refilled the emotional reservoir, he prevented the utter destruction/nullification/collapse of his entire universe, by essentially repowering/recharging the whole of creation(stars, galaxies, abstract concepts and all). That is undoubtedly a universal feat.

A well of power, perhaps, but no control. No reality manipulation, no time manipulation, no indication of the ability to do anything of the sort.

I can't justify putting that above GoL or Ion I personally erm

Galan007
Originally posted by abhilegend
It will make emotional entities pretty much abstracts in power and we can't have that, can we?

And the entire creation crumbled after the reservoir was drained. Not just one universe.

thumb up "Universe"(in the singular sense) is how creation -both past and current- was described in that arc. I don't think the writer's intent was for the story to be multiversal in scope. That wasn't mentioned anywhere that I can recall.

Did I miss something, though? Honest question. If so, WL Kyle would certainly bump up a few slots on my list. stick out tongue

Originally posted by Cogito
A well of power, perhaps, but no control. No reality manipulation, no time manipulation, no indication of the ability to do anything of the sort.

I can't justify putting that above GoL or Ion I personally erm Given that Kyle repowered the entirety of creation, he technically did manipulate all of those concepts. stick out tongue

My justification is feats. Ion I and GoL Hal only ever *talked* about their ability to operate on a universal scale. WL Kyle, however, actually *did* so on panel.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
"Universe"(in the singular sense) is how creation -both past and current- was described in that arc. I don't think the writer's intent was for the story to be multiversal in scope. That wasn't mentioned anywhere that I can recall.

Did I miss something, though? Honest question. If so, WL Kyle would certainly bump up a few slots on my list. stick out tongue

Given that Kyle repowered the entirety of creation, he technically did manipulate all of those concepts. stick out tongue

My justification is feats. Ion I and GoL Hal only ever *talked* about their ability to operate on a universal scale. WL Kyle, however, actually *did* so on panel.
It really doesn't matter if creation is universal or multiversal. Writers don't take that into account.

Just the fact that he was powerful enough to repower the creation is a testament to his power. Originally posted by Cogito
A well of power, perhaps, but no control. No reality manipulation, no time manipulation, no indication of the ability to do anything of the sort.

I can't justify putting that above GoL or Ion I personally erm
In that league, only power matters. Beyonders literally couldn't control time.

Yet, they slaughtered every cosmic abstract out there. With fanciful versatility feats.

thumb up

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
Given that Kyle repowered the entirety of creation, he technically did manipulate all of those concepts. stick out tongue

My justification is feats. Ion I only ever *talked* about his ability to operate on a universal scale. WL Kyle, however, actually *did* so on panel.

He had power, but didn't use it. Others have held comparable power or signficant components of that power and been far below universal level.

Even though Ion I didn't perform universal reality manipulation, I do believe he could because Hal-Spectre said he could easily. To me, if you have a guy who has experience with the same power and the cosmic awareness of the Spectre vouching for your power, that's more or less the same as displaying it on panel.

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
In that league, only power matters. Beyonders literally couldn't control time.

Yet, they slaughtered every cosmic abstract out there. With fanciful versatility feats. But the Beyonders did that, and Kyle didn't do anything except dump the entities on the other side of the wall.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
He had power, but didn't use it. Others have held comparable power or signficant components of that power and been far below universal level.

Even though Ion I didn't perform universal reality manipulation, I do believe he could because Hal-Spectre said he could easily. To me, if you have a guy who has experience with the same power and the cosmic awareness of the Spectre vouching for your power, that's more or less the same as displaying it on panel.
Parallax alone was beating the shit out of Spectre.

laughing out loud

I like how statements now supersede actual feats.

While Ganthet being stated to be near Spectre level in power is dismissed as hyperbole.

thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
But the Beyonders did that, and Kyle didn't do anything except dump the entities on the other side of the wall.
And fill the reservoir of creation.

It's pretty much the best feat out there. Tell me how many characters can basically repower entire creation? You have to go to the level of Michael Demiurgos to find a better feat.

thumb up

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
Parallax alone was beating the shit out of Spectre.
You mean the one panel of almost nothing happening before the Spectre was recalled by the Presence?

Originally posted by abhilegend
I like how statements now supersede actual feats.
When given by the right source, sure they're valid. Why do we know Lucifer > Death of the Endless? Because Death said so, not because of any contest of feats. Why do we know Ion I's power? Because the Spectre said so. Good enough for me thumb up

Originally posted by abhilegend
While Ganthet being stated to be near Spectre level in power is dismissed as hyperbole.

Gotta consider the source and contradicting evidence. Ganthet has ton's of feats to show he's well below Spectre, and the only statements are self-congratulatory. Anyways, I'm not getting into that argument again.

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
And fill the reservoir of creation.

It's pretty much the best feat out there. Tell me how many characters can basically repower entire creation? You have to go to the level of Michael Demiurgos to find a better feat.

thumb up

Anyone who's ever created a universe has the power to empower a universe.

That's a "duh" statement right there thumb up

Galan007
.

Galan007
Originally posted by abhilegend
Just the fact that he was powerful enough to repower the creation is a testament to his power. I completely agree. That's why he's #2 on my list. thumb up

Originally posted by Cogito
Even though Ion I didn't perform universal reality manipulation, I do believe he could because Hal-Spectre said he could easily. To me, if you have a guy who has experience with the same power and the cosmic awareness of the Spectre vouching for your power, that's more or less the same as displaying it on panel. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that Ion I could have manipulated time/reality on a universal scale. His convo with Hal-Spectre was certainly indicative of such, and I don't think there's any legitimate reason to question it:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/28681431_Green_Lantern_1990-2004_150-011.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/28681435_Green_Lantern_1990-2004_150-012.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/28681437_Green_Lantern_1990-2004_150-013.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/28681440_Green_Lantern_1990-2004_150-014.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/28681442_Green_Lantern_1990-2004_150-015.jpg

*That's why I specifically mentioned this scene in my original list.


However, talking about doing something still isn't the same as actually doing it. Ion I and GoL Hal *talked*. WL Kyle *did*. Aside from that, transcending the Source Wall, and repowering/recharging the whole of creation, just isn't a feat I think Ion I or GoL could have accomplished... They simply didn't have enough power, imo.

...Hence why I personally believe *peak* WL Kyle is >.

Cogito
^ Do you believe WL Kyle to be capable of reality manipulation? Time manipulation? Anything manipulation?

Because Krona with all the entities was not. Nor has any host of any of the individual entities. In the Johns-era of entities, none have ever even implied such feats.

That's why I can't justify putting him above.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
You mean the one panel of almost nothing happening before the Spectre was recalled by the Presence?


No,Parallax pretty much taking over Spectre and then literally beating the shit out of him in GL 51.



But that is always below actual feats.



Haha, yeah that's just lulzworthy.

By all rights Ion II was more powerful than Ion I per statements.

That must be false as well.

Only ones which suit your agenda are true.

thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
Anyone who's ever created a universe has the power to empower a universe.

That's a "duh" statement right there thumb up
Name one character.

Humor me.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
^ Do you believe WL Kyle to be capable of reality manipulation? Time manipulation? Anything manipulation?

Because Krona with all the entities was not. Nor has any host of any of the individual entities. In the Johns-era of entities, none have ever even implied such feats.

That's why I can't justify putting him above.

Yes, they can power manipulate.

You're acting like versatility is power. It isn't.

Spectre can do everything you mentioned. Yet Parallax was stove him.

erm

Cogito
Abhi, I'm just going to ignore you for now. Your debates are tiring, senseless, and often off-topic.

I'd rather just stick to a civilized debate with Galan on this on if you don't mind thumb up

abhilegend
Concession accepted. Pretend Emotional Entities are Silver Surfer level because he can time travel and they can't!!!!!

thumb up

But me talking about GL related topics are off topic.

laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
^ Do you believe WL Kyle to be capable of reality manipulation? Time manipulation? Anything manipulation?

Because Krona with all the entities was not. Nor has any host of any of the individual entities. In the Johns-era of entities, none have ever even implied such feats. I absolutely believe such feats were within his 'scope'.

Remember Volthoom? It was his power over the entire emotional spectrum that allowed him to manipulate time/reality, and very nearly succeed in remaking the universe... And he could just tap-into said energy.

WL Kyle literally *was* the emotional reservoir in its entirety. He was essentially Volthoom on cosmic/abstract steroids.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
I absolutely believe such feats were within his 'scope'.

Remember Volthoom? It was his power over the entire emotional spectrum that allowed him to manipulate time/reality, and very nearly succeed in remaking the universe... And he could just tap-into said energy.

WL Kyle literally *was* the emotional reservoir in its entirety. He was essentially Volthoom on cosmic/abstract steroids. Krona had ample time/desire to do such things with comparable power, and didn't even try, so I struggle to so easily assume that he could.

Agree to disagree.

abhilegend
laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
Krona had ample time/desire to do such things with comparable power, and didn't even try, so I struggle to so easily assume that he could.

Agree to disagree. The difference is that Krona didn't want to use the power of the entities to directly manipulate the universe or w/e. He only sought to use said power against the Guardians as vengeance for when they originally condemned him billions of years ago. That's why one of his firsts acts with the entities was to stuff them inside the Guardians:
http://i.imgur.com/IXl7NeI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DpAFq9p.jpg
The Guardians prided themselves on being unable to experience any emotion, so it was the ultimate insult for Krona to transform them into literal embodiments of emotion.

He also stuffed Parallax back into the GL Central Battery, which corrupted it and transformed nearly all of the GLC into his slaves by proxy... Another insult to the Guardians.


Later in the arc, Krona had a slight change of heart and attempted to transform a few of the key humans into the new Guardians, because he felt them better-suited for the role:
http://i.imgur.com/PDmN6JP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xyE4bCD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cpWL2kY.jpg


Krona obviously didn't succeed with the above task, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that his *only* real intent with all that power was to enact revenge on the Guardians... Which is a totally different agenda than, say, Volthoom, whose primary goal *was* to f*ck with time/reality, and ultimately remake the entire universe.

Regardless, I definitely think it was within Krona's ability to manipulate reality on a universal scale, had he actually wanted to use the power of the entities in such a manner. Volthoom's abilities/feats with the emotional energies tells us that much, imo.

abhilegend
And Highfather flat out said that the light spectrum was the most powerful source of power in multiverse.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-POCg3MFYgGw/VDC-D2mYupI/AAAAAAAFIs4/29KI8pwvFsQ/s1600/p16_13%2Bcopy.jpg

So the writer considered the creation multiverse after all.

thumb up

Galan007
Originally posted by abhilegend
And Highfather flat out said that the light spectrum was the most powerful source of power in multiverse.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-POCg3MFYgGw/VDC-D2mYupI/AAAAAAAFIs4/29KI8pwvFsQ/s1600/p16_13%2Bcopy.jpg

So the writer considered the creation multiverse after all.

thumb up thumb up

It was made clear during Godhead that the WL energies = the Life Equation = the most powerful force in the multiverse. After acquiring said power from Kyle, Highfather was confident that he'd be able to easily steamroll Darkseid+Apokolips, thereby saving the multiverse from his rule(and we saw how powerful DCnU Darkseid was during the events of Darkseid War.) Furthermore, Highfather stated that he planned on using the White Light/Life Equation to recreate the entire mainstream DC universe in his image.

Anywho, it was still stated that WL Kyle 'only' restored the energies of his particular universe, so I wouldn't feel comfortable crediting him with more than a universal feat. The power at his disposal was absolutely massive, though... Especially when it can leave even the figurehead New God(s) awestruck.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

It was made clear during Godhead that the WL energies = the Life Equation = the most powerful force in the multiverse. After acquiring said power from Kyle, Highfather was confident that he'd be able to easily steamroll Darkseid+Apokolips, thereby saving the multiverse from his rule(and we saw how powerful DCnU Darkseid was during the events of Darkseid War.) Furthermore, Highfather stated that he planned on using the White Light/Life Equation to recreate the entire mainstream DC universe in his image.

Anywho, it was still stated that WL Kyle 'only' restored the energies of his particular universe, so I wouldn't feel comfortable crediting him with more than a universal feat. The power at his disposal was absolutely massive, though... Especially when it can leave even the figurehead New God(s) awestruck.
Was it anywhere stated that the Life Equation was equal or greater than the emotional spectrum?

Yeah, further reading, Highfather stated that Kyle restored the reservoir of this universe.

Cogito
I'm not attempting to diminish WL Kyle's feat (well, maybe I am a little), but I just think Ion I was capable of greater. I think the difference between Ion I and ZH Parallax was meant to be very minimal.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
I'm not attempting to diminish WL Kyle's feat (well, maybe I am a little), but I just think Ion I was capable of greater. I think the difference between Ion I and ZH Parallax was meant to be very minimal.
Based on?

ZH Parallax was Parallax entity+CPB+Time Trapper's power+Left over power from COIE.

He was far more powerful than Ion.

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
Based on?

ZH Parallax was Parallax entity+CPB+Time Trapper's power+Left over power from COIE.

He was far more powerful than Ion.

Parallax entity was not a fleshed out idea then. It wasn't an entity that contributed power until later.

And why do I think they're comparable? Because Ion and Hal-Spectre were clearly in agreement that Ion could easily do what ZH Parallax was trying to do. The caveat here is that Ion was not even thinking about affecting more than the one universe whereas Parallax was clearly multiversal.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
Parallax entity was not a fleshed out idea then. It wasn't an entity that contributed power until later.

And why do I think they're comparable? Because Ion and Hal-Spectre were clearly in agreement that Ion could easily do what ZH Parallax was trying to do. The caveat here is that Ion was not even thinking about affecting more than the one universe whereas Parallax was clearly multiversal.
Yes, a retcon which is the only version now.

Yes, all statements and nothing of substance. There are also statements that Ion II was more powerful than Ion I.

ZH Parallax himself was beaten back by Krona Gauntlet Hal.

thumb up

Cogito
And in Final Night, ZH Parallax died expending all of his energies to reignite the sun. What's your point?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
And in Final Night, ZH Parallax died expending all of his energies to reignite the sun. What's your point?
That wasn't ZH Parallax. In Zero Hour Parallax lost almost all his power, got transported to Oa which was feeding him residual power it had. Enough to destroy universes apparently. Kyle destroyed Oa.

Parallax only had the last bit of his power and the power of Ganthet he had absorbed which he sacrificed igniting the sun.

And that was revealed a fraction of Guardians' power. The power then went into Ion and Tom Kalmaaku used the remaining power to recreate Oa.

The chronology is a bit fuzzy as always.

Cogito
Could have sworn it was just ZH Parallax wandering through time mmm

I'd go back and look if I cared, which I don't.

I'm sticking with ZH Parallax > Ion I > WL Kyle, with GoL Hal somewhere around there.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
Could have sworn it was just ZH Parallax wandering through time mmm

I'd go back and look if I cared, which I don't.

I'm sticking with ZH Parallax > Ion I > WL Kyle, with GoL Hal somewhere around there.
No, it wasn't. Here, let me give you chrnology.

Zero Hour 0: Parallax tries creating existence. Is defeated, most of his power depleted.

GL 0: Kyle destroys Oa, denying him the last reserves of his power.

GL v3 64: Ganthet gives his power to Hal.

Final Night: Hal ignites the sun and dies. Most of his power lies dormant in the sun which is the power of CPB.

GL Circle of Fire: Kyle starts to absorb most of the power of Parallax left over in the sun and creates Oblivion.

GL Legacy 1: The rest of the power of Parallax is used to create Oa again.

GL v3 144-150: Kyle becomes Ion and restores CPB and Guardians.

And White Lantern is above pretty much Ion I or GoL. He has the power of entire emotional spectrum and actual feats to show it.

thumb up

Cogito
Originally posted by abhilegend
And White Lantern is above pretty much Ion I or GoL. He has the power of entire emotional spectrum and actual feats to show it.
I would agree with this if the entities had not been nerfed since Rebirth.

It's like saying Celestials/IG/LT/Beyonders/Etc. are as powerful now as they were in the good ole' days. On paper perhaps nothing has changed, but you know that's a joke.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
I would agree with this if the entities had not been nerfed since Rebirth.

It's like saying Celestials/IG/LT/Beyonders/Etc. are as powerful now as they were in the good ole' days. On paper perhaps nothing has changed, but you know that's a joke.
And how are they nerfed?

Cogito
an Ion host is now a joke compared to Ion I.

Come on, I don't need to say that.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Cogito
an Ion host is now a joke compared to Ion I.

Come on, I don't need to say that.
Ion I had the power of CPB+Ion entity+Power of all the Guardians. Of course he would be more powerful.

God of Light was just as powerful as Ion I with the power of CPB. Volthoom nearly unmade all the universe from past to future by tapping into the emotional spectrum.

Parallax alone gives you the power comparable to ****ing Spectre and six entities give you power to restore entire creation.

What would you want out of them?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Badabing
1. Guy Gardner

2-10. Those not Guy Gardner

laughing out loud

Galan007
Originally posted by abhilegend
Was it anywhere stated that the Life Equation was equal or greater than the emotional spectrum? They are one in the same(explained below)...



It was stated that the Life Equation had literally merged with Kyle when he returned from beyond the Source Wall:
http://i.imgur.com/qfn4BCA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ELGYrPU.jpg
*The Guardians stated that Kyle had already used said power to reshape reality. They also stated that if you change the Life Equation, you change reality itself -- and because of this, WL Kyle was capable of anything.

That's why Highfather noted that the cumulative emotional energies/Life Equation represented the greatest power in the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/7H00m0k.jpg


That's why Highfather also stated that said power would give him the ability to shape the very clay of existence:
http://i.imgur.com/wAAacEA.jpg


And as we know: Kyle = the White Light = the Life Equation, as Highfather could not *just* remove the Life Equation from the White Ring. He had to remove *both* or *nothing*, because they are one in the same:
http://i.imgur.com/Z1nvPNg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oTUvEC7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AdbGC2Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3zpkz9D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WkU7hTr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TFYRjwI.jpg


And to reiterate: this also gave Highfather enough power to trump Darkseid+Apokolips(and Darkseid alone is universal+):
http://i.imgur.com/EGQPQ8U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hIi7wNw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L3qPIl8.jpg
Highfather: "You are originally from Apokolips. Does Darkseid have anything that could stand against this?"
Malhedron: "No. I have never seen anything with that much power."

Cogito
I maintain that WL Kyle had power and didn't know how to use it, whereas Ion knew exactly how to do mess with space/time.

Ion: "For me, for what I am now -- time is not set in stone. It's pliable. It's not a fabric that will unravel if I pull on a string. I hold all the threads now, Hal. I can change what's happened without changing what will be. "

Galan007
This is about *talking* versus *doing*. Not that I disagree with his boasts, but Ion I still only *talked* about operating on a universal scale. WL Kyle actually *did* operate on a universal scale.

If ZH Parallax had only ever *talked* about wanting to destroy/recreate the whole of DC, but never actually *did*, I certainly wouldn't put him in the same tier that I currently do -- and that's because doing>talking. Feats>statements.


I mean, the Guardians *stated* that Ion II = Ion I:
http://i.imgur.com/LbEWx3u.jpg
"Once before, Rayner held such power. He used it well."

They also *heavily* implied they were equal on a separate occasion:
http://i.imgur.com/gPW19YZ.jpg
"What you have become has enabled us to place within you the spark of ALL that we Guardians are, ALL that the Green Lantern Corps is. You are the safeguard. Should we or the Corps ever be destroyed again, it is within you to bring about our rebirth..."

...But no one in their right mind would actually put them in the same tier, because statements just cannot always supersede feats. In that respect, Ion I >>> Ion II.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
They are one in the same(explained below)...



It was stated that the Life Equation had literally merged with Kyle when he returned from beyond the Source Wall:
http://i.imgur.com/qfn4BCA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ELGYrPU.jpg
*The Guardians stated that Kyle had already used said power to reshape reality. They also stated that if you change the Life Equation, you change reality itself -- and because of this, WL Kyle was capable of anything.

That's why Highfather noted that the cumulative emotional energies/Life Equation represented the greatest power in the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/7H00m0k.jpg


That's why Highfather also stated that said power would give him the ability to shape the very clay of existence:
http://i.imgur.com/wAAacEA.jpg


And as we know: Kyle = the White Light = the Life Equation, as Highfather could not *just* remove the Life Equation from the White Ring. He had to remove *both* or *nothing*, because they are one in the same:
http://i.imgur.com/Z1nvPNg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oTUvEC7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AdbGC2Z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3zpkz9D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WkU7hTr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TFYRjwI.jpg


And to reiterate: this also gave Highfather enough power to trump Darkseid+Apokolips(and Darkseid alone is universal+):
http://i.imgur.com/EGQPQ8U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hIi7wNw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L3qPIl8.jpg
Highfather: "You are originally from Apokolips. Does Darkseid have anything that could stand against this?"
Malhedron: "No. I have never seen anything with that much power."
thumb up

Shows just how powerful emotional spectrum is. And people thought GLs have been nerfed.

laughing out loud

Galan007
^ thumb up

I also just realized that Volthoom seems to have been 'retconned' into the proverbial "Hand of Creation" that originally spawned the DCU...


Volthoom arrived right after the Guardians witnessed the Hand of Creation... But upon closer inspection, they noticed that it was wearing a GL ring:
http://i.imgur.com/x85f4Gv.jpg
*Note the GL ring on the middle finger of a right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/cOpIggY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dMp3DG7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lVeoFO4.jpg

In a nutshell: the Guardians witnessed the Hand birthing creation, noted a GL ring on the Hand, their instrumentation inextricably shattered, and *poof* Volthoom(in his original/human form) arrived. He then taught the Guardians of the emotional spectrum and convinced them to purge all emotion from their beings--thereby creating the First Lantern(and empowering himself) by proxy:
http://i.imgur.com/0w07Crs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9ZwPru3.jpg

Coincidence? Hardly.


We later learned that peak Volthoom had harnessed the power of the emotional spectrum with the intent of "unwinding the fabric of history" for his own purposes:
http://i.imgur.com/c2ciIoU.jpg


Volthoom then literally pulled the first(and most powerful) GL ring from inside of Ganthet:
http://i.imgur.com/o19k08w.jpg
*Note that he places it on the middle finger of his right hand.


This panel makes it clearer to see the ring placement:
http://i.imgur.com/SPwbVkn.jpg
*Again: Middle finger. Right hand.


Why is this important? Because when he used Hal as a focal point, Volthoom began unraveling ALL history, starting at the beginning... He became the Hand of Creation:
http://i.imgur.com/6yWuov8.jpg
*Note the GL ring on the middle finger of his right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/Bawjtq8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HHXgPoY.jpg


How do I know Volthoom was *actually* collapsing/altering the timestream? Because WL Kyle could literally feel it happening:
http://i.imgur.com/lAG22w1.jpg


The 'retconned' Hand was featured again in a completely different arc, and described as the force that originally spawned the multiverse as well as the Old(and New) Gods:
http://i.imgur.com/YHLCuP8.jpg
*Note a ring on the middle finger of a right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/OvgYg3k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cQGHFHq.jpg


Moreover, Volthoom stated that he already traveled to the beginning of time and has seen his destiny:
http://i.imgur.com/7BxVwcE.jpg


So it is not only my opinion that Volthoom has been retconned into being responsible for generating the Hand of Creation, but I believe he was also responsible for sending his original/human-self back in time, in order to perpetually repeat the process of his transformation. Essentially, he was his own creator.


Thoughts?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
^ thumb up

I also just realized that Volthoom seems to have been 'retconned' into the proverbial "Hand of Creation" that originally spawned the DCU...


Volthoom arrived right after the Guardians witnessed the Hand of Creation... But upon closer inspection, they noticed that it was wearing a GL ring:
http://i.imgur.com/x85f4Gv.jpg
*Note the GL ring on the middle finger of a right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/cOpIggY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dMp3DG7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lVeoFO4.jpg

In a nutshell: the Guardians witnessed the Hand birthing creation, noted a GL ring on the Hand, their instrumentation inextricably shattered, and *poof* Volthoom(in his original/human form) arrived. He then taught the Guardians of the emotional spectrum and convinced them to purge all emotion from their beings--thereby creating the First Lantern(and empowering himself) by proxy:
http://i.imgur.com/0w07Crs.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/9ZwPru3.jpg

Coincidence? Hardly.


We later learned that peak Volthoom had harnessed the power of the emotional spectrum with the intent of "unwinding the fabric of history" for his own purposes:
http://i.imgur.com/c2ciIoU.jpg


Volthoom then literally pulled the first(and most powerful) GL ring from inside of Ganthet:
http://i.imgur.com/o19k08w.jpg
*Note that he places it on the middle finger of his right hand.


This panel makes it clearer to see the ring placement:
http://i.imgur.com/SPwbVkn.jpg
*Again: Middle finger. Right hand.


Why is this important? Because when he used Hal as a focal point, Volthoom began unraveling ALL history, starting at the beginning... He became the Hand of Creation:
http://i.imgur.com/6yWuov8.jpg
*Note the GL ring on the middle finger of his right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/Bawjtq8.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HHXgPoY.jpg


How do I know Volthoom was *actually* collapsing/altering the timestream? Because WL Kyle could literally feel it happening:
http://i.imgur.com/lAG22w1.jpg


The 'retconned' Hand was featured again in a completely different arc, and described as the force that originally spawned the multiverse as well as the Old(and New) Gods:
http://i.imgur.com/YHLCuP8.jpg
*Note a ring on the middle finger of a right hand.

Full scene:
http://i.imgur.com/OvgYg3k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cQGHFHq.jpg


Moreover, Volthoom stated that he already traveled to the beginning of time and has seen his destiny:
http://i.imgur.com/7BxVwcE.jpg


So it is not only my opinion that Volthoom has been retconned into being responsible for generating the Hand of Creation, but I believe he was also responsible for sending his original/human-self back in time, in order to perpetually repeat the process of his transformation. Essentially, he was his own creator.


Thoughts?
Excellent post. Yes, I agree that Volthoom was the one whose hand Guardians saw and was seen in Godhead.

That is just ****ing insanely powerful.

And Volthoom was literally powered by Guardians. Some trans level beings they are.

thumb up

Galan007
Tbf, the Guardians were massively depowered when they purged themselves of all emotional energy(energy that Volthoom absorbed.)

Afterward, the Guardians no longer had access to those emotions, thus no longer had access to that power. This is why they had to use Volthoom's power to create/fuel their Third Army, for example.

In essence, they purposefully neutered themselves all those billionS of years ago, because they thought emotions were dangerous.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Galan007
Tbf, the Guardians were massively depowered when they purged themselves of all emotional energy(energy that Volthoom absorbed.)

Afterward, the Guardians no longer had access to those emotions, thus no longer had access to that power. This is why they had to use Volthoom's power to create/fuel their Third Army, for example.

In essence, they purposefully neutered themselves all those billionS of years ago, because they thought emotions were dangerous.
thumb up

Only Ganthet and Krona had their full power and we saw how powerful they were. Krona casually stomping all emotional entities is just insane on thinking.

Not even someone like Galactus could have done that IMO. That's a legitimate abstract level shit right there.

Cogito
Originally posted by Galan007
This is about *talking* versus *doing*. Not that I disagree with his boasts, but Ion I still only *talked* about operating on a universal scale. WL Kyle actually *did* operate on a universal scale.
IMO releasing the entities on the other side =/= control enough to compete with those who can casually manipulate reality, even if the level of power is greater.

/shrug

kevdude
Been awhile since I've read "Wrath of the First Lantern", but Volthoom did what he did when he took control of the Great Heart's power, that is the Guardians at full power, if they had the GH power. I'll have to read the Third Army and WofL stories again.

Galan007
Originally posted by Cogito
IMO releasing the entities on the other side =/= control enough to compete with those who can casually manipulate reality, even if the level of power is greater.

/shrug But Ion I never did 'casually' manipulate reality, though. He just talked about his ability to do so. WL Kyle actually renewed the fundamental fabric of creation, AND had the complete power of EVERY emotional entity/spectrum.

I really see no way Ion I would beat him in a battle, tbh... Especially considering they are the same person, thus their wills are obviously equal. WL Kyle just has WAAAY more power under his control, imo.

Originally posted by kevdude
Been awhile since I've read "Wrath of the First Lantern", but Volthoom did what he did when he took control of the Great Heart's power, that is the Guardians at full power, if they had the GH power. I'll have to read the Third Army and WofL stories again. All of the Guardians(save Ganthet and Krona) purged themselves of all emotion billions of years ago, because they thought the emotional spectrum/energy was dangerous. Volthoom then absorbed that cumulative emotional energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9ZwPru3.jpg


Heck, the Guardians even severed Ganthet's link to the emotional spectrum immediately after the events of War of the Green Lanterns:
http://i.imgur.com/9FjmQB7.jpg

This fact was corroborated by Volthoom:
http://i.imgur.com/c1Je9h1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CCqMzRO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aIoVrNT.jpg


So yeah, Volthoom was essentially all of the Guardians wrapped up in one -- IF they'd opted to retain their full powers, of course.

RangerDX
1) Hand of God Ion
2) Zero Hour Parallax
3) White Lantern Kyle
4) God of Light Hal
5) White Lantern Sinestro

the rest....

Hand of God Ion is greater than Parallax. He had the combined power of

Parallax (pre retcon)

original Oans minus Ganthet

Central Power Battery of Oa

Classic Oblivion who was a monster (curbstomped the JL + numerous high level backups, created a red sun that nearly killed Supes, one shot Wonder Woman, was feeding off dark matter to the point where the universe was gonna collapse, powerful mind****ery on a plantery level at the very least with the battery causing everyone on the planet into mass hysteria, controlled an Elemental effortlessly, tanked Martian Vision, Heat vision, JLA beam w/o a scratch, no sold a Supes blitz etc) and every GL power ring in existence. He essentially had all the power of ZH Parallax and then some and he was also omnipresent at least within a universal scale.

http://i.imgur.com/5I8W3SQ.jpg

Galan007
In addition to the energy of the CB, ZH Parallax had also absorbed residual energy from COIE -- Ion I obviously did not absorb the latter.

Like I mentioned in my line-up: ZH Parallax was beyond universal -- he inadvertently destroyed and recreated several timelines/universes, before ultimately destroying the mainstream timeline/universe. He then began creating a new universe in his own image, before he was stopped by a host of PIS-ridden characters/tactics(one of which included Corrigan-Spectre.) It was also explicitly noted that Parallax was significantly weakened when he was beaten, yet he still put up that much of a fight. Feat-wise, he was significantly > Ion I.

RangerDX
Feat wise Ion didn't do much.

He absorbed the energy of Parallax himself and Oblivion (which Parallax didn't) in addition to the CB as well as the energy of the original Oans minus Gathet

Power scaling he was greater than Parallax and that was one of the points of the arc

abhilegend
Originally posted by RangerDX
1) Hand of God Ion
2) Zero Hour Parallax
3) White Lantern Kyle
4) God of Light Hal
5) White Lantern Sinestro

the rest....

Hand of God Ion is greater than Parallax. He had the combined power of

Parallax (pre retcon)

original Oans minus Ganthet

Central Power Battery of Oa

Classic Oblivion who was a monster (curbstomped the JL + numerous high level backups, created a red sun that nearly killed Supes, one shot Wonder Woman, was feeding off dark matter to the point where the universe was gonna collapse, powerful mind****ery on a plantery level at the very least with the battery causing everyone on the planet into mass hysteria, controlled an Elemental effortlessly, tanked Martian Vision, Heat vision, JLA beam w/o a scratch, no sold a Supes blitz etc) and every GL power ring in existence. He essentially had all the power of ZH Parallax and then some and he was also omnipresent at least within a universal scale.

http://i.imgur.com/5I8W3SQ.jpg
Oblivion was only a construct of Kyle, given form by his ring.

Ion only absorbed the power of CPB left in the sun by Parallax when he reignited the sin.

Ion was never more powerful than ZH Parallax.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by abhilegend
Not even someone like Galactus could have done that IMO. No coincidence with that specific namedrop

Galan007
Originally posted by RangerDX
Power scaling he was greater than Parallax and that was one of the points of the arc He was not > ZH Parallax. He was above Final Night Parallax... ZH Parallax is an entirely different animal.

kevdude
Originally posted by Galan007
But Ion I never did 'casually' manipulate reality, though. He just talked about his ability to do so. WL Kyle actually renewed the fundamental fabric of creation, AND had the complete power of EVERY emotional entity/spectrum.

I really see no way Ion I would beat him in a battle, tbh... Especially considering they are the same person, thus their wills are obviously equal. WL Kyle just has WAAAY more power under his control, imo.

All of the Guardians(save Ganthet and Krona) purged themselves of all emotion billions of years ago, because they thought the emotional spectrum/energy was dangerous. Volthoom then absorbed that cumulative emotional energy:
http://i.imgur.com/9ZwPru3.jpg


Heck, the Guardians even severed Ganthet's link to the emotional spectrum immediately after the events of War of the Green Lanterns:
http://i.imgur.com/9FjmQB7.jpg

This fact was corroborated by Volthoom:
http://i.imgur.com/c1Je9h1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CCqMzRO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aIoVrNT.jpg


So yeah, Volthoom was essentially all of the Guardians wrapped up in one -- IF they'd opted to retain their full powers, of course.

I agree, the Guardians would have been never been stopped if Volthoom didn't break out of his cell, when they were using him as their battery. Crazy powerful!

Galan007
This should be included here...

According to Hal, the power he briefly possessed as the God of Light "almost rivaled" that of the emotional spectrum:
http://i.imgur.com/JjJUCom.jpg

operator616
Originally posted by Cogito
^ Do you believe WL Kyle to be capable of reality manipulation? Time manipulation? Anything manipulation?

Because Krona with all the entities was not. Nor has any host of any of the individual entities. In the Johns-era of entities, none have ever even implied such feats.

That's why I can't justify putting him above.

Kyle actually did manipulate reality when he re-wrote "Oblivion" (similar to the original oblivion he created but a direct link was never made) when he entered the source wall. It was specifically described as reality warping in fact. It happened in GL: NG annual #2.

Also in Godhead it was stated that he could destroy all universeS and that warping the universe is easy for him. That same arc he defeated the source titans quite easily.

Krona couldn't do anything with the entities because he wasn't their host. He was externally controlling them. Entities need actual hosts to become powerful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Here is my list. I'm sure some of the Lanterns can be flip-flopped based on personal opinion and such, but whatevs.... I had fun putting this together. big grin


1.) Zero Hour Parallax - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies + residual energy he absorbed from the events of COIE. He inadvertently created/destroyed multiple timelines during his tirade, before destroying the 'prime' timeline/universe in its entirety. He then began recreating the prime universe anew in his own image, before he was ultimately stopped by Corrigan-Spectre along with a laundry list of additional plot-device characters. He was well beyond universal.

2.) White Lantern Kyle (peak) - after merging with ALL of the emotional entities, he was able to transcend the Source Wall, and use said energy to renew/restore the entire universe, thereby saving it from imminent destruction/collapse. He was definitively universal.

3.) God of Light Hal - his power was almost exclusively statement/accolade-based. However, the Mother Box merged him with the totality of the CB's energies, which would have theoretically given him absolute mastery over said power. He also had complete control of the Mother Box/Ring itself, which Johns(and various other writers) have portrayed as abstract-esque tech all by itself. He appeared to be universal.

4.) Ion I - possessed the totality of the 'classic' CB's energies, and among many other feats, the ability to restructure the universe/timeline to his whim(confirmed by Spectre.) He appeared to be universal.

5.) Volthoom - the first ever Lantern, created billionS of years ago. Had mastery of all the emotional energy in the spectrum. Was capable of generating new timelines for specific characters at less that full power. He was beyond EVERY Lantern Corps(inc. the Guardians), and required direct intervention from Nekron himself to finally be destroyed--and that was after Black Lantern Hal absorbed the entirety of his energy. Anyway, Volthoom could have remade the entire universe at his peak, but he never quite got there. He was sub-universal, with the ability to become fully universal.

6.) White Lantern Sinestro - was able to give Nekron a great fight in the time he wielded the White Light. His upper-limits were undefined.

7.) Hal /w/ Krona's Gauntlet - his power was originally likened to a dozen GL rings. However, the Gauntlet has since transformed Hal into a construct comprised of pure, unharnessed thought/expression/will. In this 'form', he proved to be > an alternate-universe version of himself(ie. Parallax), who was stated to wield the power of his universe's CB. His upper-limits weren't fully defined before he seemingly shed that form in the recent Hal Jordan/GLC: Rebirth issue.

8.) Larfleeze - he alone wields the power of an entire Corps, and in fact, has literally become an organic Battery for the Orange Light itself. Moreover, his Battery contains FAR more energy than all of the other Corps, because he has conserved it for billionS of years, whereas the other Corps have continuously squandered their Light(s) on various tasks over the eons. His upper-limits are undefined.

9.) Sinestrollax - merged with the Parallax entity itself, and appeared to have full control over it. His upper-limits were undefined.

10.) Ion II - had a direct link to the CB + the entirety of the Starheart, after absorbing it from Jade in the wake of her death. His upper-limits were undefined.

11.) Mogo - given that he is a friggin planet, Mogo has always proven himself to be an absolute BEAST, of whom is typically portrayed well beyond the other Lanterns... Him killing of thousandS of Black Lanterns was certainly indicative of such. I just had to include him, lol.



*My list excludes true 'dues ex' characters, such as:
-Peak Johns-era Hal, who is a bonafide abstract-buster when needed.
-Black Hand /w/ Ring, given that he can absorb ALL emotional energy--this potentially enables him to trump the entire emotional spectrum.
-Guardians, because they aren't Lanterns in the typical sense.

Great post thumb up

Although given your later post on Volthoom, would you put him higher? (peak Volthoom that is).

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
Great post thumb up

Although given your later post on Volthoom, would you put him higher? (peak Volthoom that is). Oh yes. Peak Volthoom became the Hand of Creation. He became the force that spawned the original multiverse -- the force that spawned the entirety of DC, in fact.

That being said, peak Volthoom *should* be comfortably at the top of the list, imo.

hutchy1345
What I don't get is how white lantern Kyle when he absorbed ALL of the emotional entities wasn't god-like and beyond zero hour parallax because let's face it all entities > one entity
But yes I know this is based on feats it was just an observation
Any thoughts?

Cogito
Originally posted by hutchy1345
What I don't get is how white lantern Kyle when he absorbed ALL of the emotional entities wasn't god-like and beyond zero hour parallax because let's face it all entities > one entity
But yes I know this is based on feats it was just an observation
Any thoughts?

Logically that makes sense, but Zero Hour happened twenty years ago now and, since then, power levels have taken a step back. Makes sense, because they want to keep using the entities in plot and you can't keep escalating from threats that are already multiversal/major events.

Also, as Galan has pointed out many times, Hal absorbed more energies on the way to becoming "full power" ZH Parallax than just the Central Battery/Parallax entity (which didn't really exist as a concept back then, btw)

Galan007
Originally posted by hutchy1345
What I don't get is how white lantern Kyle when he absorbed ALL of the emotional entities wasn't god-like and beyond zero hour parallax because let's face it all entities > one entity
But yes I know this is based on feats it was just an observation
Any thoughts? Remember, ZH Parallax also commanded other, very powerful/esoteric energies, in addition to those of the CB.

Aside from that, it just boils down to Johns. He has essentially retconned Lantern continuity into an entire emotional spectrum of different energy, with each color/emotion representing a portion of a greater, fully universal force(ie. the white light.) Back in the days ZH Parallax was running around, GL energy is pretty much all there was on that side of things -- and it was regarded as just about THE most powerful force in existence(hence the levels Parallax was written to.) There simply weren't a slew of other colors/emotions to pull from.

That being said, the white light/energy is currently regarded as the greatest power in the multiverse(even by New Gods), so...

hutchy1345
Originally posted by Cogito
Logically that makes sense, but Zero Hour happened twenty years ago now and, since then, power levels have taken a step back. Makes sense, because they want to keep using the entities in plot and you can't keep escalating from threats that are already multiversal/major events.

Also, as Galan has pointed out many times, Hal absorbed more energies on the way to becoming "full power" ZH Parallax than just the Central Battery/Parallax entity (which didn't really exist as a concept back then, btw)
Right okay thanks for that
In that case I agree with the list above except maybe 8 and 9 switched

operator616
Originally posted by hutchy1345
What I don't get is how white lantern Kyle when he absorbed ALL of the emotional entities wasn't god-like and beyond zero hour parallax because let's face it all entities > one entity
But yes I know this is based on feats it was just an observation
Any thoughts?

Because Zero Hour Parallax = Parallax + full CPB + Time Trapper's power + energies from the left overs of COIE.

Although WL Kyle at full potential is about equal to ZHP imo.

staxamillion
Originally posted by Galan007
Oh yes. Peak Volthoom became the Hand of Creation. He became the force that spawned the original multiverse -- the force that spawned the entirety of DC, in fact.

That being said, peak Volthoom *should* be comfortably at the top of the list, imo.

this I agree with. isn't white lantern kyle simply harnessing the same power that volthoom has?

I would say

ZH parallax
volthoom
WL Kyle

Galan007
If we're talking 'peak' Volthoom, he is at the top of the list by a large majority. Remember, he was retconned into DC's Hand of Creation, which not only birthed the infinite multiverse, but also spawned DC's higher-dimensional planes -- ie. the realm of the Old/New Gods:
http://i.imgur.com/tFWbpmTm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/vHNQPL6m.jpg


And as we know, the New God realm is so vast that the entire 3D multiverse is utterly infinitesimal by comparison:
http://i.imgur.com/EKCIDerm.jpg


That trumps what ZH Parallax did, tbh.

staxamillion
im reading godhead now so I haven't gotten up to snuff. but I totally follow what you are saying

TethAdamTheRock
Does Mongul Count?

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