Why is TOR less skilled than the PT?

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carthage
From many discussions across multiple boards, I've seen posters typically rank the best of TOR's duelists as being somewhat less skilled than Obi Wan Kenobi. For an era that had a Jedi orde with near ubiquitous Lightsaber duels with Sith, why didn't the TOR era produce individuals as skilled as Mace Windu, Anakin, or Yoda? Is it because TOR Sith are by and large inferior opponents compared to individuals such as Maul, Dooku, and Grievous?- or that TOR focused more on force prowess? What are your thoughts for why TOR lags behind in saber skill, and where do you personally think the eras best rank?

MS Warehouse
TOR isn't less skilled. It just so happens that 2016 is dominated by PT wank.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Lmfao. TOR is a relatively unexplored video game. Of course there won't be dueling feats to show for it. We say they're below Kenobi in dueling because there's no evidence to the contrary. smile

NTJack0
Being below Kenobi isn't a bad thing.

Zenwolf
Just cause they fight against Sith regularly doesn't mean they should be leaps and bounds above others. I mean TPM is a great example, the Jedi hadn't fought against a Sith in what....1,000 years or so?

Despite that fact, Jinn and Obi-Wan did well enough against Maul where they weren't immediately stomped into the ground. Otherwise Maul wouldn't have led them into an environment that favored him, he would have just ended them without that hassle. Same on Tatooine against Jinn.

Which the fact that they hadn't encountered such a foe for that long and yet still did that well, should actually show that the skill disparity between the TOR era and PT era hadn't waned. (If it did, it hardly matters)

Which actually makes sense, when you realize that the PT era had been training to fight against the Sith of old.

Trocity
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
TOR isn't less skilled. It just so happens that 2016 is dominated by PT wank.


nopity

MS Warehouse
Originally posted by Trocity
nopity


http://rs1016.pbsrc.com/albums/af289/ignominius/misc/genImageCairoaspx.jpg~c200

Nephthys
It isn't, it just doesn't have the things people love to wank around here like statements about how they're one of the best in history and such. The PT also has the advantage of being intensely interconnected so each character props up others by showing how they compare easily. We know Kits great because he fought GG, we know GG is great because he fought Kenobi, we know Kenobi is great because he fought Maul etc etc.

TOR lacks that. The major characters are boss fights and then die. It makes it hard to gauge them without them having that level of support and exposure.

Beniboybling
Because thousands of years of combat advancement. yes

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because thousands of years of combat advancement. yes http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/384/buddy_christ.jpg

JKBart
Who said that? Act 2 HoT is around Darth Vader's level already. Malgus is as good a combatant as Caedus is, prolly above, but not yet Yoda level, same goes with Arcann, etc.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by carthage
From many discussions across multiple boards, I've seen posters typically rank the best of TOR's duelists as being somewhat less skilled than Obi Wan Kenobi. For an era that had a Jedi orde with near ubiquitous Lightsaber duels with Sith, why didn't the TOR era produce individuals as skilled as Mace Windu, Anakin, or Yoda? Is it because TOR Sith are by and large inferior opponents compared to individuals such as Maul, Dooku, and Grievous?- or that TOR focused more on force prowess? What are your thoughts for why TOR lags behind in saber skill, and where do you personally think the eras best rank?

The TOR era Jedi trained and served in a wartime environment. This left them with little room or time for experimentation and innovation in lightsabre combat, forcing them to adopt a "stick to what works" mentality. Mace Windu, Anakin etc. had the luxury of time and opportunity to try out new techniques to refine their skills. Had Mace been born in the TOR era he would never have been able to develop Vaapad.

There's also the issue of quality vs. quantity. TOR era Jedi mostly focused on battlefield engagements where they had lots of allies (both other Jedi and soldiers) to help them. PT era Jedi again had more time to focus on the subtleties of one-on-one duelling.

FreshestSlice
TIL: The PT wasn't wartime and that the TOR Jedi focused on quantity over quality, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Petrus
What's your opinion on this, Freshest?

FreshestSlice
My opinion on this is that this is retarded.

JKBart
black opinions matter

not rly

FreshestSlice
And Polefags don't even have the internet, so I'm not sure why you're even here instead of slaving away in the salt mines.

JKBart
mentally disabled aren't forced to do labor

internet is stolen obviously

FreshestSlice
Right. The mentally disabled run the government.

JKBart
correct

extraordinary knowledge of Polish culture tbh

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't, it just doesn't have the things people love to wank around here like statements about how they're one of the best in history and such. The PT also has the advantage of being intensely interconnected so each character props up others by showing how they compare easily. We know Kits great because he fought GG, we know GG is great because he fought Kenobi, we know Kenobi is great because he fought Maul etc etc.

TOR lacks that. The major characters are boss fights and then die. It makes it hard to gauge them without them having that level of support and exposure.
thumb up

This tbh.

If a TOR-era character is officially identified as a master swordsman, some would not think highly of him irrespective of such promotion. Lack of exposure is a problem.

BioWare did not give a damn about feats while developing vanilla stories. BioWare realized this error much later. Too late perhaps.

MythLord
Let me answer the OP's question with another question:
Dooku, Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Maul, Obi-Wan, Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous and several Jedi combatants identified as some of the most skilled in history versus featless Council members, Darth Malgus, a Grandmaster who lost to a Bounty Hunter, Aryn Leneer, Satele Shan, Revan and Scourge... who would you back?

carthage
Lmao @ Shaak Ti being mentioned with Anakin, Dooku, Mace

MythLord
If you can mention beings like Asajj and Agen, not sure why not Shaak. I was just randomly listing skilled Jedi.

MS Warehouse
No, you just listed a bunch of characters from the PT, then proceeded to claim all the TOR characters you listed as "featless".

Aurbere
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No, you just listed a bunch of characters from the PT, then proceeded to claim all the TOR characters you listed as "featless".

He said "featless Council members" and then listed other names. He didn't say they were all featless.

MythLord
I listed some of PTs top tiers and some of TORs "top tiers"... PT wins, hands down

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
Let me answer the OP's question with another question:
Dooku, Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Maul, Obi-Wan, Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous and several Jedi combatants identified as some of the most skilled in history versus featless Council members, Darth Malgus, a Grandmaster who lost to a Bounty Hunter, Aryn Leneer, Satele Shan, Revan and Scourge... who would you back?
You missed following:

- Emperor's Wrath II
- Hero of Tython
- Jaric Kaedan
- Syo Bakarn
- Darth Marr
- Lord Skar

I am sure there are a large number of others in TOR era that are exceptionally skilled duelists but lacking in hype and exposure.

Trocity
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
No, you just listed a bunch of characters from the PT, then proceeded to claim all the TOR characters you listed as "featless".

nopity

MythLord
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You missed following:

- Emperor's Wrath II
- Hero of Tython
- Jaric Kaedan
- Syo Bakarn
- Darth Marr
- Lord Skar

I am sure there are a large number of others in TOR era that are exceptionally skilled duelists but lacking in hype and exposure.
Most of them are not even comparable to PT top tiers.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by chilled monkey
The TOR era Jedi trained and served in a wartime environment. This left them with little room or time for experimentation and innovation in lightsabre combat, forcing them to adopt a "stick to what works" mentality. Mace Windu, Anakin etc. had the luxury of time and opportunity to try out new techniques to refine their skills. Had Mace been born in the TOR era he would never have been able to develop Vaapad.

There's also the issue of quality vs. quantity. TOR era Jedi mostly focused on battlefield engagements where they had lots of allies (both other Jedi and soldiers) to help them. PT era Jedi again had more time to focus on the subtleties of one-on-one duelling.

This is incorrect. As early as Fightsaber, it's been confirmed that the bulk of PT Jedi were focusing on diplomacy, study, and other non-violent means and hadn't fought anyone other than each other for a thousand years. Except for the truly powerful and exceptional (Mace, Yoda, and Dooku) most utilize the Diplomat's Form and suffer terribly at Geonoshia. Obi-Wan gets better with three years of war and a ton of opposition, but is still well behind the power trio mentioned.

In an Order of what was it? 10,000-15,000? We can conclusively say 3 are unrivaled masters, a handful are close (Luminara maybe, Barriss kinda, Anakin PlotDeviceWalker, Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon sorta) and the rest are basically mooks with glowsticks.

Comparatively, TOR Jedi and Sith have a much harsher learning environment, are more exposed to real combat (Hell, even Tython is a breeding ground for danger and that's the Jedi Kindergarten) and as of the start of the base game have just fought a major war against actual lightsaber toting Sith.

Without sufficient evidence to point in either direction conclusively, it is more reasonable to assume the TOR Jedi is a better fighter than the PT Jedi, based on the circumstantial evidence of their training. The fact that you're a Jedi and alive past a certain point in TOR means you are a badass. PT Jedi died in droves to ****ing droids.

Trocity
Are you Janus Marius?

Selenial
You surrendered every stance you've ever taken on the PT by suggesting the closest Jedi to the top three involved Luminara Unduli and Barriss...

Nephthys
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Comparatively, TOR Jedi and Sith have a much harsher learning environment, are more exposed to real combat (Hell, even Tython is a breeding ground for danger and that's the Jedi Kindergarten) and as of the start of the base game have just fought a major war against actual lightsaber toting Sith.

Without sufficient evidence to point in either direction conclusively, it is more reasonable to assume the TOR Jedi is a better fighter than the PT Jedi, based on the circumstantial evidence of their training. The fact that you're a Jedi and alive past a certain point in TOR means you are a badass. PT Jedi died in droves to ****ing droids.

To support this point, in Swtore it's stated that Jedi Padawans would have more combat experience than most veteran soldiers before taking the trails.

It is also stated that before the war Jedi in training were primarily focused on core world politics over warfare and that after it padawans would often liaise with the Republic military and focus on combat. The Jedi trials also evolved to become more demanding and dangerous, while not quite being on the level of the suicide meat-grinder the Sith employed.

Deronn_solo

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We can conclusively say 3 are unrivaled masters, a handful are close (Luminara maybe, Barriss kinda Lmao

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Just cause they fight against Sith regularly doesn't mean they should be leaps and bounds above others. I mean TPM is a great example, the Jedi hadn't fought against a Sith in what....1,000 years or so?

Despite that fact, Jinn and Obi-Wan did well enough against Maul where they weren't immediately stomped into the ground. Otherwise Maul wouldn't have led them into an environment that favored him, he would have just ended them without that hassle. Same on Tatooine against Jinn.

Which the fact that they hadn't encountered such a foe for that long and yet still did that well, should actually show that the skill disparity between the TOR era and PT era hadn't waned. (If it did, it hardly matters)

Which actually makes sense, when you realize that the PT era had been training to fight against the Sith of old.

Ahem..

Jmanghan
If Stealth Moose sees that, you are going to get completely destroyed.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Jmanghan
If Stealth Moose sees that, you are going to get completely destroyed.

Is it not true? It is as I recall.

Jmanghan
Oh, I was referring to all three of you.

Seriously, he needs to be a SW Forum Mod.

Zenwolf
Don't think so if he attempts to try and refute what I said, cause it is true.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
a handful are close (Luminara maybe, Barriss kinda, Interesting, why do you say so?

Stealth Moose

Deronn_solo
...wait, are you legit serious with some of those claims? I must remember to reply to this tomorrow, kek.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

^ It says right damn there that modern Jedi aren't martially inclined on average, preferring a generic lightsaber fighting style.

The rest of the article, which I cannot locate via Google at this hour, indicates that Forms III and IV arose from the replacement of saber-to-saber combat as being Jedi concerns and instead blaster bolt deflection. This is why Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan can ward of battle droids' salvos with ease but struggle against someone who actually fights to kill. Where? And Forms III and IV where developed well before the PT era?

Nephthys
I never really understood how Niman was supposed to be the easy form for diplomats yet it takes 10 years to master. That's really backwards. Unless it means they just don't care enough to properly master it in a reasonable amount of time.

Beniboybling
Well that's probably it tbh, spread over the course of 10 years they could spend more time practicing other things.

Also Moosey boy I think this is what you were looking for:

http://i.imgur.com/9P5rWoc.png

Though I'd question whether this means the majority of Jedi wielded the form, otherwise surely the Clone Wars would have been a slaughter. mmm

cs_zoltan
They an hero'd at the Battle of Geonosis tho.

Zenwolf
Except Stealth, there are also sources in which the Jedi have noted to have gotten stronger and have been training to fight the last war against the Sith.

Source 1:



and Source 2



Hm...there's also the note of the Jedi Path, where by at least a Padawan, a Jedi would be a Master of 2 Lightsaber forms, Form 1 and whatever other form they choose.





They are also given a run through the other saber forms.

They also fight against holo Sith Lords of old in saber combat as Padawans in their Knight trials, noting that one day they could come across such a foe.



They also as Knights, study advanced lightsaber techniques.

As a Knight you should never stop learning- lightsaber techniques are no different. Every move you perfect only opens pathways to new moves. Here are a few of the more advanced moves you should study in your knighthood.

Saber Throw, Mounted Combat, Trakata and Sokan.

- Taken from Jedi Path

...So looks to me that the PT Order isn't lacking.

Zenwolf
I hate this site, you can't seem to edit long posts, it's just blank in the edit box. /Sigh

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Except Stealth, there are also sources in which the Jedi have noted to have gotten stronger and have been training to fight the last war against the Sith.

Source 1:



and Source 2



Hm...there's also the note of the Jedi Path, where by at least a Padawan, a Jedi would be a Master of 2 Lightsaber forms, Form 1 and whatever other form they choose.





They are also given a run through the other saber forms.

They also fight against holo Sith Lords of old in saber combat as Padawans in their Knight trials, noting that one day they could come across such a foe.



They also as Knights, study advanced lightsaber techniques.

As a Knight you should never stop learning- lightsaber techniques are no different. Every move you perfect only opens pathways to new moves. Here are a few of the more advanced moves you should study in your knighthood.

Saber Throw, Mounted Combat, Trakata and Sokan.

- Taken from Jedi Path

...So looks to me that the PT Order isn't lacking. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I hate this site, you can't seem to edit long posts, it's just blank in the edit box. /Sigh That's because some symbols aren't compatible with it.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's because some symbols aren't compatible with it.

Laaame.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
...So looks to me that the PT Order isn't lacking. thumb up

Your quoting skills are tho.

cs_zoltan
double post.

Beniboybling
I'd check your own. rolling on floor laughing

cs_zoltan
You are a failure at life Beni.

Beniboybling
Kys smile

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