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RotJ Vader & TFU Galen Marek

vs.

SWTOR Vitiate

1. Force
2. All-out

Starting distance 10 meters

No telepathy

Vitiate definitely wins with telepathy or a better starting distance, but the fight is pretty close together, so I'm not sure.

Yeah i got no idea who wins lol

The team can probably pull it off; Vitiate's stripped of his trump card, after all.

I don't think Vitiate could dominate their minds, but didn't want to turn it into that debate.

Oh, there's not even a debate on that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh, there's not even a debate on that.

Seeing as how the godly Vitiate couldn't even dominate Scourge and Meetra on a dark side nexus just because Revan gave them a pep talk a few hours before, and couldn't read Scourge's mind afterwards, and then couldn't mentally dominate the Outlander, yeah, it definitely isn't a debate. He's never controlled someone as powerful as Galen or Vader, so any assertions that he could would be based entirely on some sort of extrapolation that I haven't seen anyone persuasively articulate.

Regardless, I would say that this duo would defeat Vitiate, if Revan + Meetra + Scourge stood a decent chance against a somewhat weaker incarnation on a dark side nexus. They're strong enough in the Force to hurt him seriously there, and combatively competent enough to keep him on his toes given their ability to go in close for the kill.

I'd say peak Vader + Galen could split with RotS Sidious.

Vitiate fails to dominate Kira Carsen, Hero of Tython, and fodder like Lana Beniko but can dominate Vader who can will himself back to life? Lmfao

The duo succeeds where Revan failed

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seeing as how the godly Vitiate couldn't even dominate Scourge and Meetra on a dark side nexus just because Revan gave them a pep talk a few hours before, and couldn't read Scourge's mind afterwards,
Vitiate never even attempted to dominate Scourge and Meetra Surik. However, 300 years later, it's revealed Scourge cannot even resist weakened Vitiate's telepathy, so no.


What? The Outlander openly admits he has no defense against Valkorion infiltrating his mind. And Valkorion then specifically states "I no longer require a slave," so no.


Palpatine sent Vader on his knees from across the galaxy. Vader has no defense against top-level telepaths and you know it.

And Marek's unstable as ****. There's absolutely nothing to suggest his willpower is even greater than damn Tol Braga or Scourge.

Even despite the mass circumstances behind the feat, sending Malak and Revan to their knees is sufficient proof he can do the same to this duo.

The willpower feats Malak and Revan are packing are absolutely insane between Malachor V, Nathema, and soon after the Star Forge.

Vader has nothing going for him and Marek even less so. They're pathetic Force-users when it comes to anything relevant to the ancient Sith Lords.

Vader and Galen take it in a moderately good fight.

Vitiate gains two new slaves.

Vitiate solidly

Lets hear it Ellimist.

Replace Vader with Exar Kun and Vitiate stomps.

Are we just gonna sit here and pretend that Vitiate is really capable of winning?

*stomping.

And I have Revan above Exar btw.

Why are either of them relevant when Vader is the most powerful Sith and Jedi in Canon. /thread

True.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Lets hear it Ellimist. elimist is good, but here it is clear that he doesn't know what he is talking about as Ant pointed out. Both the novel and the game heavily focus on how Vitiate's TP has to be bypassed somehow in order to defeat him. He is Nitpicking as he points to the details to avoid the big picture but even then his intrrpretation of the details is flawed. Bypassing his TP has been achieved with either prior exposure to his TP or with the assistance of someone who has had that experience already. Neither Vader nor Galen will benefit from that if Vitiate is allowed to use his TP.

I'm mobile atm, but wasn't there a quote that says HOT or Braga was just simply too strong for him to control?

HoT is the only one who can face weakened Vitiate. You can't even choose anyone other than T7 cause he'll just dominate them, and HoT himself was broken at first. Orgus Din says that he made HoT do terrible things and HoT doesn't even remember them. Same with Braga, and let's keep in mind that these are events happening while the Emperor is out there multitasking like a mofo. I assume Vitiate will have the luxury of giving his %100 in this fight, in which case I'm not sure how Vader or Galen can resist him, unless you think Sheev's TP >>> Vitiate's TP.

Valkorion admits that he can't dominate the HoTlander's mind, yes.

Can't recall a dialogue like that tbh. Mind linking it?

Don't have the quote on hand, I'd have to look for it.

Originally posted by Sinious
HoT is the only one who can face weakened Vitiate. You can't even choose anyone other than T7 cause he'll just dominate them, and HoT himself was broken at first. Orgus Din says that he made HoT do terrible things and HoT doesn't even remember them. Same with Braga, and let's keep in mind that these are events happening while the Emperor is out there multitasking like a mofo. I assume Vitiate will have the luxury of giving his %100 in this fight, in which case I'm not sure how Vader or Galen can resist him, unless you think Sheev's TP >>> Vitiate's TP.

Vitiate was 100% in the Revan novel, correct?

Yes, he was %100 of novel Vitiate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Don't have the quote on hand, I'd have to look for it. Well given I remember the exact opposite, and seeing how Ant seems to recall it that way as well, I'm gonna have to see it.

Seeing how unstable RotJ Vader is with the whole Luke thing going on and seeing how Galen's mind is a ****ing mess, and also seeing how Sidious can TP Vader from across the galaxy, I doubt Vitiate wouldn't be capable of dominating their minds, tbh. But that's not what the thread is about.

Vader being the canonical most powerful Sith has nothing to do with this fight because Vitiate is Legends...

Anyway, I'm not sure who wins this.

Originally posted by Petrus
that's not what the thread is about. It's exactly what this thread is about. Elimist shouldn't have declared that he thinks Vitiate can't TP them even if it was allowed if he truly didn't want to discuss it.

True, trolling mind.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm mobile atm, but wasn't there a quote that says HOT or Braga was just simply too strong for him to control?

He did control Braga, actually. Its just that Braga broke free at some point afterwards, probably after being sent on his mission. Similar to how Revan and Malak broke his control when given time and freedom upon returning to the Republic and warped his instructions in their minds.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well given I remember the exact opposite, and seeing how Ant seems to recall it that way as well, I'm gonna have to see it.

From my respect thread:

Vitiate tacitly agrees that he can't control the Hero of Tython's mind, admitting that s/he's stronger than they once were:

"You won't control me again. I'm stronger than I was back then."

"Yes. I feel it."

There's also a bunch of other stuff that might be for every Outlander. Valkorion states you're the only one to ever match his will to survive. Get dunked Revan, Valky bringing the heat!

Originally posted by Nephthys
From my respect thread:

Vitiate tacitly agrees that he can't control the Hero of Tython's mind, admitting that s/he's stronger than they once were:

"You won't control me again. I'm stronger than I was back then."

"Yes. I feel it." Ah, thanks. This has already been addressed though. "Again" is the key word. Prior experience is the most important factor in defending against Vitiate's TP, and Valkorion concedes to HoT's self-praise all the time.

Yeah, basically everyone who faces Vit for the first time gets mind-raped if he wants to mind-rape.

So we just assume it's a no limits ability?

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, basically everyone who faces Vit for the first time gets mind-raped if he wants to mind-rape. Using this no-limits fallacy, Vitiate vs the Ones GG get rekt c u l8r.

Doesn't really work like that.

Pretty sure Legend would legitimately argue that.

Originally posted by Trocity
Pretty sure Legend would legitimately argue that. There's always a little bit of truth in legends.

unless you use alternating capitals... then you're dead wrong, every f*ckin' time.

Yea Vitiate wins this.

Originally posted by ILS
Using this no-limits fallacy, Vitiate vs the Ones GG get rekt c u l8r.

Doesn't really work like that.

No, I never said it's a no-limits ability, nor do I believe that. I'm just saying things as they are: he mind-rapes everyone he faces for the first time, if he wants to. At least, all he's faced so far.

Of course, if he was to face someone like Sidious, the odds of Vit mind-raping him are slim to none.

Originally posted by Sinious
Ah, thanks. This has already been addressed though. "Again" is the key word. Prior experience is the most important factor in defending against Vitiate's TP, and Valkorion concedes to HoT's self-praise all the time. Yet he highlights strength, as opposed to experience as the reason why Valkorion would fail. mmm

This notion that you need special knowledge or experience to counter his TP, despite their being nothing observably special about it, doesn't really hold water tbh.Originally posted by ILS
There's always a little bit of truth in legends.

unless you use alternating capitals... then you're dead wrong, every f*ckin' time. LMAO

Originally posted by Petrus
No, I never said it's a no-limits ability, nor do I believe that. I'm just saying things as they are: he mind-rapes everyone he faces for the first time, if he wants to. At least, all he's faced so far.

Of course, if he was to face someone like Sidious, the odds of Vit mind-raping him are slim to none.

Might want to rephrase that, because you've got one heck of a contradiction going on here.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Might want to rephrase that, because you've got one heck of a contradiction going on here.

It's no contradiction. I'm just stating facts. Everyone Vit faced for the first time, he mind-dominated. That does not mean his ability knows no limits, it just means his TP skillzzz are quite formidable and/or the opponents he faced had no defense against it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So we just assume it's a no limits ability?

Kind of like you do with Zannah amirite?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y083uOcg1fc/VWjsqOmLDTI/AAAAAAADuR4/9-n_M8xXVuU/s1600/7ac.jpg

Originally posted by carthage
Kind of like you do with Zannah amirite? ngl that's a legit point.

DEMONZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

I'm pretty sure there is a very clear limit in terms of Zannah's mental attacks and his name is Darth Bane.

Tbh Emp that's just the cold hard truth.

To be fair Sinious Valkorian is stronger then he was as Vitiate just as HoT is stronger as the Outlander.

Also we know for a fact your ability to resist TP is tied directly to your power in the force ( along with a few other factors like strength of will ) as shown in the Thrawn Trilogy with C'baoth.

I will say that it seems like Vitiate's TP isn't necessarily the kind that is just an overwhelming assault but a poking prodding kind that subtly spreads through your mind as the quote we both provided mentions Vitiate's tricks and tactics in regards to his telepathy.

That is what I said in my post.

My point: Every example of successful resistance to his TP includes factors that give an advantage to his opposition, and those advantages won't be there for Galen or Vader.

Regardless if we're going by the OP I think the team should take it. Do you see any problem with that Sin?

@Sinious

Cool but for a moment lets frame what your saying with some contexts i.e. Vitiate being able to TP Galen Marek and Vader. Who it goes without saying > everyone in the TOR Jedi Order. So that particular point is rather moot.

And I don't recall saying that prior experience had nothing to do with it, evidently it helps, as you would expect. What I said is that there is no proof it is necessary, someone sufficiently strong-willed should be able to resist Vitiate without prior experience/without developing a special technique.

And your ultimately assuming that the Outlander benefited from his prior experience with Vitiate as Revan did, when there is no solid proof of that, nor any implication of it. Regardless any such advantage would surely have been mitigated by Valkorion's own significant growth in power.

Originally posted by Sinious
That is what I said in my post.

My point: Every example of successful resistance to his TP includes factors that give an advantage to his opposition, and those advantages won't be there for Galen or Vader.

Well tbf Galen does seem to have some resistance to mental attacks as shown when he prepares defenses again a potential mental assault by Rahm Kota and when he experienced the illusions on Kashyyyk. Vader himself has experience dealing with this sort of thing as well via Jax Pavan and the Muur Talisman.

I'd say that both Vader and Galen are more powerful then even the greatest opponents Vitiate has TP'ed and that the Sidious that TP'ed Vader ( not taking into account that if Vader tried to resist Sidious would likely have seen it as a sign of rebellion ) is greater then Vitiate.

The Hero of Tython did have Scourge after Act II, who as you'll recall was taught Vitiates tricks by Revan. Scourge would no doubt help the Hero in preparing to face Vitiate's telepathy.

Also recall that the Hero has other beastly TP feats like resisting Sel Makor and mind-****ing Tol Braga. Sinious is on point that they're a immensely strong in that area.

Also note that Vitiate implies the HoTlander has a stronger will than Revan, kek.

^

Originally posted by Syndicate
Regardless if we're going by the OP I think the team should take it. Do you see any problem with that Sin? This idea of Vitiate being very vulnerable in close range is not very accurate imo, at least it's not an insta-win for the other side. Under these stipulations and 10 meters distance, the team definitely has a chance, but so does Vitiate imo. Who takes the majority, I'd have to think about it a bit more.

Fair enough.

Now as for the TP argument.

"Well tbf Galen does seem to have some resistance to mental attacks as shown when he prepares defenses again a potential mental assault by Rahm Kota and when he experienced the illusions on Kashyyyk. Vader himself has experience dealing with this sort of thing as well via Jax Pavan and the Muur Talisman.

I'd say that both Vader and Galen are more powerful then even the greatest opponents Vitiate has TP'ed and that the Sidious that TP'ed Vader ( not taking into account that if Vader tried to resist Sidious would likely have seen it as a sign of rebellion ) is greater then Vitiate."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Sinious

Cool but for a moment lets frame what your saying with some contexts i.e. Vitiate being able to TP Galen Marek and Vader. Who it goes without saying > everyone in the TOR Jedi Order. So that particular point is rather moot.

And I don't recall saying that prior experience had nothing to do with it, evidently it helps, as you would expect. What I said is that there is no proof it is necessary, someone sufficiently strong-willed should be able to resist Vitiate without prior experience/without developing a special technique.

And your ultimately assuming that the Outlander benefited from his prior experience with Vitiate as Revan did, when there is no solid proof of that, nor any implication of it. Regardless any such advantage would surely have been mitigated by Valkorion's own significant growth in power. Remember that he was insanely weakened though. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't mention it.

Yes, you didn't say that. I was going to rephrase it, sorry for the poor wording, had to type that rather urgently. My point there is that the examples given so far don't apply to Vader or Galen as they had certain advantages that the duo here won't.

No, the novel stresses the importance of it quite explicitly, and what Revan said is actually proven to work, where we do not know whether Valkorion can mindrape him or not as Hot might be clueless and Valky might be just manipulating him. So, what Revan said is more valuable.

Well, according to the novel, that advantage allowed Revan to resist Vitiate + DM's TP for 3 centuries, and as Neph pointed out, HoT also had Scourge helping him, which is areally good point by the way, especially since Scourge's life goal is to stay close to the Emperor, learn his weaknesses and strengths, and help the championin his vision defeat Vitiate, which actually occurred in the game.

Whatever happened to Scourge btw? Did he die?

He's probably gonna show up in KotFE and tag-team Valkorion with a folding chair.

I could also see him trying to kill the Outlander cuz Valkorions bound to them tho.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough.

Now as for the TP argument.

"Well tbf Galen does seem to have some resistance to mental attacks as shown when he prepares defenses again a potential mental assault by Rahm Kota and when he experienced the illusions on Kashyyyk. Vader himself has experience dealing with this sort of thing as well via Jax Pavan and the Muur Talisman.

I'd say that both Vader and Galen are more powerful then even the greatest opponents Vitiate has TP'ed and that the Sidious that TP'ed Vader ( not taking into account that if Vader tried to resist Sidious would likely have seen it as a sign of rebellion ) is greater then Vitiate." This is another approach, one that doesn't ridiculously lowball Vitiate, but actually makes a case for the other side. Now, does it prove that they can resist him? I don't think so. Neither of those instances approach the magnitude of TP terror Vitiate will unleash on Galen. We are talking about a guy who could TP Sith Lords as a 10 year old. He should be MUCH better as an adult (say 80 years old). We all know the amps he receives after that, and with such knowledge, experience, and power at the age of 1400, imagine how strong his TP should be. Illusions on Kashyyyk or Kota don't come close. Same with what little knowledge or experience Vader gained.

Meh, I'm not sure if mental defenses are so actively geared up. I think you can focus your energy on TP attacks or defenses to strengthen your mind in a TP fight, but overall, the fact that Sidious can so easily penetrate his mind and make him bend the knee doesn't speak well for him. Also, didn't Vader wonder how Sidious always knew what Vader was thinking in the context of mind-reading (and not guessing via intelligence)? It sounds like Vader can't shield his mind from Sheev even if he wanted to.

Of course. I'm simply saying that Galen and Vader are capable of defending against mental assaults such as the ones Vitiate would carry out. I believe their own power in the Force would be what would allow the pair to resist him though of course while I would I agree their defenses would be tested heavily by such an assault I ultimately believe they could whether it.

I think Force power is probably the biggest factor in what allows you to resist TP followed closely by willpower though of course one usually correlates with the other. I think Sidious got a vague sense of Vader's thoughts and emotions when Vader was shielding his mind and with his own intelligence managed to pretty accurately guess his apprentice's thoughts.

Gross.

Originally posted by Sinious
Remember that he was insanely weakened though. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't mention it."Insanely"... lol how did you reach that conclusion. Well I'd argue that the "duo" have advantages that for example the HoTlander does not, like being significantly more powerful. But quite a fat and healthy margin depending on how you rank Arcann.Where? Where is it explicitly stated that without these techniques, you can't resist Vitiate's TP? Not seeing it...

And it's proven in practice when Valky needs your permission to take control of his body. Forcibly taking control only if you let him in first.Er again, where is that said? Lol. Maybe that had something to do with Revan's own incredible strength, and the fact he had Meetra to aid him. Or something.

And yeah it's a decent point I suppose, but regardless the fact remains Valkorion has grown significantly since then. In fact my your own omission, "insanely." Originally posted by Sinious
This is another approach, one that doesn't ridiculously lowball Vitiate, but actually makes a case for the other side. How it "ridicolous lowballing" when most Force users can only dominate muggles?

It makes perfect sense that the Jedi Order's greatest weapon, who slew him in a weakened state, would be beyond Vitiate's control.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Insanely"... lol how did you reach that conclusion. LOL idk, maybe cause he stomped HoT + a large team of Jedi not so long ago? or maybe cause we know that Revan is above HoT, and Vitiate's lightning can one-shot him? We've already established that Revan himself has to rely on his prior experience by following your own logic though, and like it or not, neither Vader nor Marek are on another level than Revan (unless you wanna go full Syndicate). Given Revan's superior knowledge and mental strength, pretty sure it's crucial that Revan relied on that. I didn't say you can't defend against it no matter who you are. But again, by your own logic, the novel let's the readers know that a Revan level opponent can't just rely on his own power and face Vitiate's mental attacks with that. After all, the convo focuses on Revan's prior experience. I've already shared the quote where Revan says it.

BTW, You do realize that we have patch notes etc that expose that even Vitiate losing to HoT in Act III Finale might be a plan of Vitiate, right? Like, Freshest has been clarifying that shit for some time now. Like, the HoTlander might be Valkorion himself. Just curious if you know how OP they're making Valky and how fast the original swtor story gets worse with each revelation from KOTFE? then why does Revan "highlight" experience in the novel, instead of strength? So your point, just like mine (which is why I mentioned Valky's growth in power in the first place) is that Valkorion should clearly be able to TP dominate him as of KOTFE.... unless there are factors even more important than just power? He is more gifted in TP than anything else tbh. You don't see him ashing sith lords with lightning at the age of 10. His first choice of ability in battle has been TP for the majority of the time too, and he is a Sidious level force user. Sidious can f*** with Vader's mind from the other side of the galaxy. Do the math. Actually, what makes sense is that Vitiate's backstory is so OP (especially with TP) that his TP is such a huge problem for anyone from his era, since Revan who is significantly more powerful than anyone in his era is significantly inferior to Vitiate and had problems with his TP. And all you're doing is placing HoT higher and higher, nothing else.

Originally posted by Sinious
Like, the HoTlander might be Valkorion himself.

Wut?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpf62pEDWI1qzdni0o1_400.gif

#mindscrew

Don't even pretend like the dumbasses writing this shit aren't capable of pulling it off.

That would be really weird if you're playing a female, ngl.

And if Vaylin or Senya becomes a romance option later.

Yeah, I resisted it for a long time, still hoping that we misinterpreted something, but there is a legit chance that something as crazy is gonna be revealed at one point.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be really weird if you're playing a female, ngl.

And if Vaylin or Senya becomes a romance option later. Nah, its more like a Vitiate created you as an extension of his will kinda thing etc. iirc. Either Freshest or Skillz should know it better, I haven't read, played or even talked about SWTOR in a long time and don't remember the new content of the game as much as should.

Maybe Valky is a Targaryen

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL idk, maybe cause he stomped HoT + a large team of Jedi not so long ago? or maybe cause we know that Revan is above HoT, and Vitiate's lightning can one-shot him?Ah I see, I though you were referring to prime-SWTOR Vitiate.Have we? I don't think we have. We've established that Revan's knowledge of Vitiate's TP aided him in developing a defense against Vitiate, but considering he resisted the Emperor for over 300 years with the Dread Masters aid, I'm seeing no reason to believe a more powerful and grounded Revan wouldn't have been able to resist the Emperor's influence without that advantage. Can you provide one?Again it doesn't, see above.And... you have a point?Because experience is something he can convey? Hardly any sense in saying "I'm more powerful now, so I'll probably be fine, you guys are ****ed though."No, my point is that anything HoT gained from experience, Valkorion would have mitigated with power, hence as far as a discussion of SWTOR Vitiate is concerned, is rather a moot. Ah I see, it's because it doesn't compare well with Sheev. It's all becoming clear now.
I get it. You fear Sheev, and rightly so. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1742136542.gif

LOL really? You're gonna use the "you're not actually a Sheev fan" card too? I understand why Temp does it, but I expected something else from the guy who claims to debate not for the sake of winning.

Your original point was that Valkorion can't dominate Hotlander's mind because he is too strong for him to dominate based on a short dialogue that "highlights" that. All I'm doing is providing another dialogue that highlights the opposite, and while Valkorion might be fooling the Outlander, there is nothing like that going on in Revan's dialogue.

As for the ridiculous KOTFE revelations, my point is that you base your arguments on what is going on between HoT(lander) and Vitikorion, but we don't even know what is actually going on. Valkorion might have been playing with him from the beginning, which would change the meaning behind a lot of cutscenes from JK story.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL really? You're gonna use the "you're not actually a Sheev fan" card too? I understand why Temp does it, but I expected something else from the guy who claims to debate not for the sake of winning. Nah, but you are clearly struggling to believe that Sheev might be better than Vitiate/Valkorion at some things.Which I pointed out doesn't actually highlight that. Yet again Valkorion is expressly shown to be incapable of intervening/taking control when he wants to, evidenced from the fact that he does take control if you let him strengthen his hold.

This thread should have ended a long time ago, when Vitiate won the fight.

To bad as a fictional character, he can't do that.

Vitiate stomps so hard his foot invades reality, Panty and Stocking style.

@ Beni,

Yeah, just because I don't think Sheev >>> Vitiate in TP of all things, I'm struggling with accepting that, even though I have Sheev above Vitiate overall, and have them more or less equal in the Force. Want to keep it civilized but that is some retarded shit right there, Beni.


No, this is all from the same conversation: Revan says that he knows the tactics in the context of "that's why we won't fail this time" as he is in a way comparing how it went the first time, and how it will go the second, and what determines the difference according to Revan is pretty clear. Apparently, he also believes that Meetra and Scourge will have a legit chance at defending against it too, meaning that he is relying on that knowledge to such an extend that he believes a far inferior Force user has a legit chance at defending against him just through Revan's prior experience. Clearly, the conversation highlights exactly what I'm saying. And since this conversation is much more reliable than the one between a probably lying Valkorion and a HoTlander who has no idea what is going on.

Revan knows a **** ton of rare mind-shielding techniques. If you talk to HK-47 in KotOR II, he will ramble on for about 25 minutes about how good they are.