Why did Nihilus need Sion's help against Traya?

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SunRazer
Just something I've long wondered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgUFQXbXcM

Here are some quotes:

"But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

-- KotOR CG

"Sion learns much from the shrew, but grows frustrated with her abstract teachings. He conspires with Darth Nihilus to strip her powers and eventually severs Traya's hand."

-- KotOR CG

"Ousting Traya with Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr."

-- KotOR CG

At the end of the day, just about everybody reckons that Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Traya by this point. So why does he need or want Sion's help? He doesn't need backup if he's vastly more powerful than Traya, since he might as well oust Traya by himself and become the undisputed ruler of the Sith Triumvirate - Sion can't possibly challenge him on his own. And Sith don't form alliances unless it's absolutely necessary - especially Nihilus.

For that matter, why would he wait until he was vastly more powerful than Traya to oust her? The nature of Sith is to claim the highest position as soon as you become more powerful than the top Sith. Nihilus was also impatient with Traya because she was denying him the freedom to sate his own hunger. I don't think anybody here would accept the idea that Nihilus actually needed Sion to help him against Traya (ie. Traya's still a bit more powerful than him at this point), but without that explanation, how do you explain Nihilus' need for Sion's aid?

FreshestSlice
So a starved Nihilus is supposed to be vastly more powerful than the one that ate Katarr in your eyes? Seems legit.

NewGuy01
Because Traya is canonically the most powerful individual in KOTOR II. thumb up

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So a starved Nihilus is supposed to be vastly more powerful than the one that ate Katarr in your eyes? Seems legit.

When did I suggest that? And "starved"? This is the Nihilus that resurrected the capital ships with telekinesis.

FreshestSlice
Nihilus was never meant to be vastly more powerful than Traya. Yes, he's starved here. And again, because you seem to keep ignoring this, the Ravager was just caught inside a gravity well. It wasn't buried into the surface of Malachor somewhere. Do you not know what a gravity well is?

SunRazer
Well, the game files have Surik only being in awe of Nihilus' power, but fair enough.

Anyway, you have yet to clarify what your original question in the thread was. Also, I don't recall him being starved, nor did I insinuate that this version is more powerful than future versions (obviously not the case).

And you still haven't answered my actual question, which is why Nihilus needed Sion here.



Based on what is it not buried in the surface of Malachor?



"Penetrating several kilometers into the ground" sounds like buried to me.

SunRazer
To clarify - Nihilus pulling out the ship from the surface of the planet doesn't exclude him from battling the gravity well as well.

And the quote above is from the Revan novel.

AncientPower
Post it in the Nihilus/Kun thread tbh, I'll be clearing that one up myself soon.

SunRazer
I'm trying to get a reasonable conclusion for why Nihilus needed Sion there. Nobody's even attempted to answer the question.

AncientPower
Because Traya is much more powerful than others give her credit for? Probably that.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Need? Well, the actual evidence shows that he didn't need Sion, and Avellone confirms this. thumb up

SunRazer
I think just about nobody here will accept the notion that Traya's more powerful than the same Nihilus who resurrected the Ravager and potentially the rest of his fleet from the gravity well, but if nobody can propose a good answer to my question, then yeah, that's the only logical avenue left.

SunRazer
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Need? Well, the actual evidence shows that he didn't need Sion, and Avellone confirms this. thumb up

When has Avellone confirmed this? And what evidence? That Traya's attention was divided between Nihilus and Sion when Nihilus TK'd her into the wall or that Sion canonically helped Nihilus oust Traya?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In the same email where he stated that Traya's quote about the ancients was legit, he said that Nihilus didn't need Sion's help, and that Nihilus used Sion as a sort of "physical reminder," directly comparing it to how Sidious would use Maul. thumb up

NewGuy01
Can confirm that Avellone did say that Nihilus could have probably done it by himself.

SunRazer
Not sure how that works, but anyway, if I see the email, then I'll have my answer.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by SunRazer

Anyway, you have yet to clarify what your original question in the thread was. Also, I don't recall him being starved, nor did I insinuate that this version is more powerful than future versions (obviously not the case).

And you still haven't answered my actual question, which is why Nihilus needed Sion here.

In the CG you're talking about it talks about his constant hunger and need to feed, you talk about him attacking her because she won't let him feed, but he's not starving?

Because he's weaker than Traya, or at least she's comparable? The implication was obvious. Nihilus was becoming progressively more powerful throughout KotOR II, something Traya herself brings up. Plus, you know, he's eating planets. 2+2=4.

The loading screen that flatout says it's in a gravity well.


Said loading screen:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/531744890167346386/43F1F22B12064D17D5D4B4321939F003E9A279E7/

Which is why everyone has to keep telling you it was in orbit. It was not buried anywhere.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how that works, but anyway, if I see the email, then I'll have my answer.

It's a thread in this forum, Chaos Theory made it IIRC.

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In the CG you're talking about it talks about his constant hunger and need to feed, you talk about him attacking her because she won't let him feed, but he's not starving?

"Starving" is defined as a severe deficiency. I doubt it was severe at this point.

Also, I was talking about Traya not letting him mindlessly feed off Jedi, which he wanted to do. Surely when she taught her how to Drain others, he'd have to have something to feed off?



Ah, so you do think that Traya > Nihilus at that point.



And I just posted a more recent quote (ergo, a retcon) that states the ships were buried on the surface.

And even if it wasn't buried, the feat's still impressive, and Traya's superiority moreso.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Starving" is defined as a severe deficiency. I doubt it was severe at this point.

Yes. Constant agony is normal.

As an overall combatant? Sure.

No, you posted a quote that said hundreds of ships where buired into the surface. Not that every ship was. Wreckage still orbited the planet.

It requires far more power to remove an object from the ground and then through the atmosphere, than just pushing it towards the natural direction gravity goes towards in a well.

SunRazer
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes. Constant agony is normal.

For Nihilus and Sion it is.



No, just Force power.



In the context of the novel, it's referring to every ship involved in battle/caught by the MSG. That's why it specifically mentions Revan and Meetra's ships being safely away from the MSG's influence.

But if we're not counting the retcon, then the ship's in orbit, yes, as is supported by the Prima Guide. The KotOR CG just mentions him raising it from Malachor, though.



Well, first of all, Nihilus having to raise the ship from the surface and having to contend with the gravity well are not mutually exclusive. If Nihilus resurrected the ship from the surface of the planet, in order to leave Malachor, he'd still have to contend with the gravity well.

Secondly, it's pushing in the opposite direction of the gravity, not the same direction, lmfao.

Nephthys
He didn't. Sion needed Nihilus' help. Sion was the one with the problem against Traya, Big N. was just there for the meal.

SunRazer
They were both pissed at her. It said she underestimated the depravity of both.

But looking at it in that light does change things a bit.

Also, "Big N?" laughing out loud

Beniboybling
None of these sources state he needed Sion's help, none of these sources even state that he helped drain her. So he didn't. thumb up

SunRazer
The last one said he ousted Traya with Sion's help, meaning Sion was involved, and I'm hoping "help" doesn't refer to beating up Traya after she was stripped from the Force.

As for Draining, the first one?

And without referring to Avellone's quote, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to give a reason for Sion's presence.

SunRazer
Read Avellone's email. Interesting. He did say that Sion might've been able to do it alone when Traya utterly crushes Sion by herself, though.

Nephthys
Traya was stronger at the end of Kotor 2 than she was at that point.

SunRazer
True, though I doubt she would've gone from "Sion might be able to solo her" to "Traya makes Sion her ***** without gesturing". Just for reference, how many indicators are there of her growth in power?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
The last one said he ousted Traya with Sion's help, meaning Sion was involved, and I'm hoping "help" doesn't refer to beating up Traya after she was stripped from the Force.

As for Draining, the first one?

And without referring to Avellone's quote, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to give a reason for Sion's presence. "Help" could mean any number of things from yeah, beating her into unconsciousness to whatever might happened in the aftermath of that scene.

The first quote only suggests complicity, in the same way won't might say that "two men lured a woman into an alley and killed her" when only one of them actually did the killing, the other being just a complicit bystander.

As for why Sion was present? Because he hates Traya's guts and has a vested interest in her downfall? All these quotes really suggest was that Sion was involved, which we can surmise ourselves from the scene.

Also can someone post this email?

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Help" could mean any number of things from yeah, beating her into unconsciousness to whatever might have happened in the aftermath of that scene.

The first quote only suggests complicity, in the same way won't might say that "two men lured a woman into an alley and killed her" when only one of them actually did the killing, the other being just a complicit bystander.

As for why Sion was present? Because he hates Traya's guts and has a vested interest in her downfall? All these quotes really suggest was that Sion was involved, which we can surmise ourselves from the scene.

1. Avellone seems to agree with your interpretation. Sion was apparently there as the icing on the cake. But without that, it'd be hard to imagine an alternative other than Traya being too much for Nihilus to handle at that point.

2. Except Sion knows Drain, so you're essentially suggesting that X and Y both have knives, lure said woman into the alley, and then only X does the stabbing.

Yes, Nihilus' Drain is infinitely more potent, but Sion still has Drain. I'd compare it to Kun + Kyp beating Luke or resurrecting the Sun Crusher, where the text notes Kyp's efforts being feeble in comparison to Kun's, but the effort's there all the same.

SunRazer
Ant posted these images on another thread (it's the very last point in the last image):

http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/17/73/92/12/here_w11.png

Beniboybling
Interesting, well I'm not sure Avellone is anywhere saying that Sion employed drain, instead he is a "physical reminder" - implying that his physical attack was all the part he had to play. mmm

EDIT: However I think its important we know the wording of Ant's question.

SunRazer
He doesn't talk about Drain there. I don't even know what Ant's original question was.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Avellone seems to agree with your interpretation. Sion was apparently there as the icing on the cake. But without that, it'd be hard to imagine an alternative other than Traya being too much for Nihilus to handle at that point.

2. Except Sion knows Drain, so you're essentially suggesting that X and Y both have knives, lure said woman into the alley, and then only X does the stabbing.

Yes, Nihilus' Drain is infinitely more potent, but Sion still has Drain. I'd compare it to Kun + Kyp beating Luke or resurrecting the Sun Crusher, where the text notes Kyp's efforts being feeble in comparison to Kun's, but the effort's there all the same. 1. Avellone also states definitively that Nihilus could have done it alone though, so I don't think there is any indication she was a threat to him. But yeah beating Traya into unconsciousness did appear to be the icing on the cake, as both a "physical reminder" as Avellone says and a means of finishing her off, that Nihilus didn't want to get his "hands dirty" doing.

2. And knife or not, a person can kill another in a number of ways. So the ability to kill is there regardless. However I feel you'd only have a point if Sion being "armed" with drain was noted on.

Well that's not what I gather from the scene (where nowhere is Sion shown using the Force) or Avellone's description, where he stresses Sion's physical involvement. The key difference in your comparison however being that Kun needed Kyp regardless, Nihilus did not.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Avellone also states definitively that Nihilus could have done it alone though, so I don't think there is any indication she was a threat to him. But yeah beating Traya into unconsciousness did appear to be the icing on the cake, as both a "physical reminder" as Avellone says and a means of finishing her off, that Nihilus didn't want to get his "hands dirty" doing.

2. And knife or not, a person can kill another in a number of ways. So the ability to kill is there regardless. However I feel you'd only have a point if Sion being "armed" with drain was noted on.

Well that's not what I gather from the scene (where nowhere is Sion shown using the Force) or Avellone's description, where he stresses Sion's physical involvement. The key difference in your comparison however being that Kun needed Kyp regardless, Nihilus did not.

1. Indeed. Regarding no indication of her being a threat - I mentioned that in the context of ignoring Avellone's comments, which kind of close the book on this.

2. I meant if she was found with only stab wounds, of course. We're taking that she was killed with a knife.

3. Nowhere is Nihilus shown stripping or draining Kreia, either. Regarding the flaw in my analogy - I'm only referring to power/effort levels.

Nephthys
Nihilus is solely credited with draining Traya in his section of the kotorcg. Not sure if Sion is ever credited as actually helping drain her at all.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus is solely credited with draining Traya in his section of the kotorcg. Not sure if Sion is ever credited as actually helping drain her at all.

I posted a quote in the OP that says Nihilus "ousted Traya with the help of Sion", though that "help" is questionable as to what it relates to. It's also from Nihilus' section. In Traya's section, it states that her disciples turned on her and drained her powers.

That said, Avellone's quote does kind of put the brake on this discussion.

Beniboybling
There are definite vagaries I admit, but yeah I think Avellone's statements give clarification.

AncientPower
Could not actually be clearer without sounding condescending.

Beniboybling
It could be a lot clearer lol.

NemeBro
Originally posted by SunRazer
They were both pissed at her. It said she underestimated the depravity of both.

But looking at it in that light does change things a bit.

Also, "Big N?" laughing out loud Depravity just means moral corruption.

Nihilus would casually betray and kill his master to satiate his inhuman hunger.

That does not imply that Nihilus had a beef with Traya himself. Nihilus' depravity is that she mattered so little to him he thought nothing of stomping on her vagina. It's actually a nice contrast with Sion, who has deeply personal and emotional issues with Traya that caused him to want to stomp on her vagina.

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