Darth Tenebrous vs Darth Vader - (POLL)

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DarthAnt66
Not really interested in the comments, just the polls, so vote.

Peak incarnations of both. Let's see what camp brings home the win.

DarthAnt66
3-3 ATM.

JKBart
lmao

DarthAnt66
6-6.

The Ellimist
I'd normally say Tenebrous - and I still voted for him - but it is true that Tenebrous -> Plagueis and Plagueis -> Sidious are probably outlier jumps, seeing as how they benefited from their midichlorian manipulation and Force balance shifting.

DarthAnt66
Tenebrous in the lead, damn.

UCanShootMyNova
Pleasing. smile

Rebel95
Anyone wanna explain why they think Tenebrous would win? Just curious

Deronn_solo
Darth needs a new, more worthy champion, as I have failed Vader him miserably.

The Merchant
Vader if you take the 80 percent thing at face value, especially since Palpatine not only is much stronger in ROTJ but that shift thing that Elimnist said gave Palpatine and Plaguies massive boosts in power.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Rebel95
Anyone wanna explain why they think Tenebrous would win? Just curious

Banite scaling basically.

Rebel95
Yeah I thought you would say that. The thing is it's just too vague. We don't know the circumstances of how the apprentices killed their master. We know Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep, so it's safe to assume the apprentice didn't always kill the master in fair combat.

From what I know about Tenebrous, he was powerful in the force in aspects other than combat. The only thing that would give him an advantage is his lightning, but of course Vader could just block that.

Other than that it's all just speculation.

NewGuy01
There are various statements that say that the Banite Sith became progressively stronger with each generation, though. Even if there were instances where the apprentice didn't kill the master in fair combat--which isn't necessarily common, just a case that we witnessed--that doesn't mean that the apprentice didn't eventually surpass the master, that's what happened in Palpatine's case. It's not really speculating to say that the final recipients of Bane's power were stronger than the original, in any case; the order canonically grew progressively stronger, and they've had 1,000 years to do so. That's more 'basic reasoning' than 'speculation.' As for Tenebrous specifically, it's true that we don't know much about his power other than the fact that he's stronger than Bane, but we have seen the Banite Sith closest to him in the hierarchy--Plagueis and Sidious, who were arguably the two most powerful Sith in history. With that in mind, paired with the fact that everything we've seen/heard of from Tenebrous (as little as that is) is pretty damn impressive, it's not illogical to speculate that he's also a top 10 contender. That being said, given how little we know about his combative potential, no one will ever be able to say for sure whether or not he could beat out Darth Vader--but I am confident he'd give him hell, one way or the other.

Rebel95
We also don't know how much more powerful Plagueis was than him, it could have been a huge jump. That's all I'm saying is that it's a lot of speculation so I'm not a huge fan of the whole banite scaling. Obviously over time it worked, seeing as Plagueis and Palpatine were the most powerful of the sith, but in each individual case between master and apprentice we don't know. It'd be a great fight though imo,but I think Vader would take it.

The Ellimist
Originally posted by Rebel95
Yeah I thought you would say that. The thing is it's just too vague. We don't know the circumstances of how the apprentices killed their master. We know Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep, so it's safe to assume the apprentice didn't always kill the master in fair combat.

From what I know about Tenebrous, he was powerful in the force in aspects other than combat. The only thing that would give him an advantage is his lightning, but of course Vader could just block that.

Other than that it's all just speculation.

Banite scaling isn't an inference from power transitions; it's been stated in multiple sources that each Banite sith was more powerful than the last. As for Tenebrous, it's incorrect to say that combat wasn't a focus of his, given his obsession with dueling.

And yeah, this is incredibly speculative - but the reverse position is too.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by The Ellimist

And yeah, this is incredibly speculative - but the reverse position is too.

thumb up Exactly.

Which is why people who still make Tenebrous VS threads in this day and age deserve to be shot. uhuh

The Ellimist
^ true in this case, but by coincidence. smile

SunRazer
People really need to stop harping on about the circumstances of the deaths or the lost knowledge from Gravid's defection etc. etc.

It's confirmed by a myriad of sources since 1999 that each Banite Sith was stronger than the last. We know that Gean still killed Gravid, which still allows her to surpass him in raw power despite the lost knowledge. And we know that Plagueis and Sidious still grew more powerful upon their masters' deaths (and afterwards), regardless of circumstance.

So it's absolute fact that each successive Banite Sith was stronger than the last, and people need to stop trying to find holes in that. It's not just a theory, it's a law laid out by (numerous) sourcebooks.

MythLord
But dat means Tenebrous is > Vader, and we cant have dat!

Beniboybling
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Banite scaling basically. On top of Tenebrous being seemingly more powerful than early Plagueis, putting him a good deal closer to prime Plagueis and Sheev than Vader imo.

Rebel95
Seemingly more powerful is a vague statement. We don't know how much more powerful prime Plagueis was than Tenebrous, and I don't have Vader too far below Plagueis.

SunRazer
I don't deny that a Tenebrous vs Vader fight is ultimately subjective, but we do have a relative idea of how powerful Tenebrous is.

Also, what is "not too far below Plagueis"?

Rebel95
If Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious then I'd have Plagueis at maybe 85%. Considering TPM Sidious and Plaguies are pretty even and Sidious grew a good amount in power between TPM and ROTJ

SunRazer
Well, we have no idea what a percent of Sidious' power is. So the stats are pretty meaningless to me.

Rebel95
And we have no idea how much the power jump was between Tenebrous and Plagueis, so I guess it's all just speculation then.

cs_zoltan
Shitting all over Starkiller puts Vader close to Plagueis. Tenebrous joins Bane in the grave.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Rebel95
And we have no idea how much the power jump was between Tenebrous and Plagueis, so I guess it's all just speculation then.

A fight like this is almost entirely subjective, yeah.

Beniboybling
It's simply a case of Tenny having more going for him, Banite scaling combined with his proximity to Plagueis leaves Vader struggling to keep up. And I don't really think Vader compares to the late Banite Sith at all, nor do meaningless stats from Lucas make for a compelling argument in that regard.Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Shitting all over Starkiller puts Vader close to Plagueis. Tenebrous joins Bane in the grave. 'Cause Starkiller made Sheev horny?

SunRazer
Whilst Lightning and speed/agility are pretty badly overblown as Vader's weaknesses, Tenebrous does have those advantage nevertheless, and with respects to general ability, it isn't hard to see Tenebrous being on Vader's level at all, if not better.

Personally, I see Vader being closer to Bane than to Plagueis, so Tenebrous is indeed superior.

Rebel95
Originally posted by SunRazer
Personally, I see Vader being closer to Bane than to Plagueis, so Tenebrous is indeed superior. I hope you're joking

SunRazer
Bane isn't as bad as he's made out to be here, lol.

And I do have Plagueis pretty high - even higher than Vitiate, for what it's worth.

UCanShootMyNova
Razer. I know the preceding lines were weaker and thus the gaps between them smaller but you really think the gap between the one end line generation was bigger then 30 generations before it?

NewGuy01
Doesn't apply to Vader.

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