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I want to see where this discussion goes.

Fight takes place anywhere - Zakuul, let's say. 10m starting distance. Morals off.

Valkorion easily. Dude eats planets, Sidious can't compete in TPM.

Uh, Valkorion.......

Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkorion easily. Dude eats planets, Sidious can't compete in TPM.

Sidious' power was such that it was threatening the balance of the Force itself. I think he can compete fine.

Valkorion.

Originally posted by GM Yoda
Valkorion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious' power was such that it was threatening the balance of the Force itself. I think he can compete fine.

With Plagueis and months of meditation. Give Sidious those things and my answer will change. Perhaps.

I'm talking about the one after Plagueis' death, right at the start of the novel. It seems like it was even more potent than the ritual one.

Not concrete on that. Isn't it just Sheev getting a boner over killing Plagueis and typical Sith delusions of grandeur?

No. He felt it affecting the lives of everyone in the galaxy, and he wondered if the Jedi had felt the Force shifting "irrevocably".

Also, Sidious is stated to be the "epicenter" of the tremor that took hold of Coruscant and seemingly reached out to shake the stars themselves upon Plagueis' death. So yeah, it's not due to Plagueis' death, but Sidious gaining power upon that killing Plagueis. It was "sprung from death", as in, perpetuated by Sidious' murder of his master, but Sidious being the epicenter of the tremor is proof that it's about his power.

I'll check it at home but I'm fairly sure it's an irrelevant nothing "feat".

Not that it has anything to do with combat anyway.

How is that nothing? The power that Sidious gained/ended up with shook Coruscant and went on to shake the distant stars. It also affected everyone in the galaxy and irrevocably shifted the Force. Frankly, something like that seems beyond even Valkorion.

Indeed, the only thing left is to see how applicable it is to combat. But then, your prior example of Vitiate devastating worlds is hardly combat-applicable, either.

It's nothing because nobody with any sense would think he actually shook Coruscant or the stars. It's just delusional garbage from Sheev getting drunk on power.

But like I said, I'll check in when I'm at home.

Well, it takes place through the lens of the Force, not necessarily physical sight. Which means it doesn't have to be a physical shaking of the stars. Just a distortion of the Force around it.

In other words, the power that Sidious gained would've radiated throughout Coruscant and into outer space (quite possibly throughout the entire galaxy), distorting the fabric of the Force itself, which thus causes the Force to shift irrevocably.

Given the nature of Sidious' description of the Force's shift, it would seem that this shift was unprecedented - and thus greater than even the one caused by Plagueis and Sidious' joint meditations. Which would be the start/continuation of Sidious existing as an imbalance in the Force itself - hence why his death is what brings balance to the Force. So it all comes together.

How does Valkorion even kill Sidious? He has nothing in his arsenal that would penetrate Sidious' Force shields.

Inb4downingshipsandkillingpilots

How was Zakuul favorable to Valkorion? He shares the same alignment as Arcann.

Anyways, I'm of the thought that TPM Sidious > Plagueis ~>= Valkorion > Vitiate.

Valkorion had more time than Arcann to get seated on Zakuul, lol. His buttprint is bigger.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How was Zakuul favorable to Valkorion? He shares the same alignment as Arcann.

Anyways, I'm of the thought that TPM Sidious > Plagueis ~>= Valkorion > Vitiate. Valkorion relied more on his Force abilities; it's like the difference Malachor V would make for Traya compared to Sion.

None?

I'm pretty sure the nexus would've flowed through both of them.

By his lightsaber dueling amp, I meant the amp for things like Force Rage and Force Speed (assuming that Arcann was even taught how to use them).

I meant the specific abilities Valkorion was using, rather than the abilities that Valkorion relied on (just so no one counter-argues that my argument didn't have any depth or substance).

Sidious wins.

@SunRazer has lost his mind. Time for him to seek medical attention.

Valkorion wins.

There's the blurb which puts Plagueis over Vitiate, which nobody has come up with a counter for beyond their gut and emotional biases.

There's Sidious unbalancing the Force itself...which nobody has come up with a counter for beyond their gut and emotional biases.

Sidious wins.

Well, Valkorion is clearly above Vitiate by a quality margin, and we don't know exactly how much more powerful Plague is compared to Vitiate, so there is that.

As for the unbalancing thing, don't know how to measure that in combative sense since it's a showing of raw power than anything else.

Valkorion wins.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As for the unbalancing thing, don't know how to measure that in combative sense since it's a showing of raw power than anything else. Given that Valkorion failed to cause such a level of imbalance, or any imbalance at all, the answer should be obvious.

There's the also added lack of evidence regarding major growth between TPM & RotS, in which Sidious overpowered Yoda.

Yeah, siding with Sheev tbh.

Lol, hardly. Krayt unbalanced the Force, Luke didn't. Krayt > Luke??? Stuff happening differently doesn't indicate anything one way or the other. Sidious had already unbalanced the Force and made himself the fulcrum of that unbalancing anyway.

You people could come up with so much more compelling and interesting arguments without using the unquantifiable imbalance feat. So dew it.

The Force resorted to immaculate conception of the Chosen One to defeat Sidious, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, hardly. Krayt unbalanced the Force, Luke didn't. Krayt > Luke???Wow. Could you have come out with anything more retarded?Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious had already unbalanced the Force and made himself the fulcrum of that unbalancing anyway. In which case his power deepened it far further than ever before. And with his death, the balance was entirely restored.

Ya know in order to settle this whole thing with who is stronger, why not just ask BW? Would seem a lot simpler then trying to figure it out.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You people could come up with so much more compelling and interesting arguments without using the unquantifiable imbalance feat. So dew it. You first, I'm in need of a good laugh.

Well I mean, it's a good laugh for me, (and I'd like to think quite a few people) reading about how Sidious is some almighty Galactic force who can juggle planets and shake stars.

He is though...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well I mean, it's a good laugh for me, (and I'd like to think quite a few people) reading about how Sidious is some almighty Galactic force who can juggle planets and shake stars. Originally posted by The Ellimist
He is though... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e0/32/de/e032de3535f6a297bbf20fdcccf33d19.jpg

Valkorian easily.

The anheroism has begun

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Valkorian easily. Originally posted by Nephthys
Valkorion easily.When you are indistinguishable from Neph.

I don't disagree much with Neph on TOR opinions. Only his PT/OT ones.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e0/32/de/e032de3535f6a297bbf20fdcccf33d19.jpg "i'm too weak" - sheev, to anakin, 19bby

. sidious' words are a primary source. valkorion>vitiate>mace>sheev.

and no he wasn't putting that on that's just gut feeling and emotional biases from the sheev fanboys.

Valkorion.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
"i'm too weak" - sheev, to anakin, 19bby

. sidious' words are a primary source. valkorion>vitiate>mace>sheev.

and no he wasn't putting that on that's just gut feeling and emotional biases from the sheev fanboys.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/64503061.jpg

. hey apparently all dismissal of the blurb are gut feelings and emotional biases so why can't dismissal of sheev's own words about his pathetic weak ass bitchery be ignored in the same vein?

sidious' words are also primary source. . primary source>tacky quaternary sources. dont deny it sheev fanboys.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
When you are indistinguishable from Neph.


Anyway, I ranked Valk higher in the last days, but so EoTPM Sidious.
Yeah, Sids wins, in a very good one.

Blurbs can be ignored if they are outright contradicted by actual showings.

Sheev's words can be ignored for two reasons; one, because the words do not come from a third person narrative statement but out of the mouth of a character meaning the statement is fallible, secondly it doesn't even show us if Sidious himself believes the statement as the scene doesn't take place from Sidious's perspective. And finally it's indicated he is faking because he was able to blast Windu's blade out of his hand with lightning and had a chance to cut Windu down early on that he did not take. All that in conjunction is enough for those who hold the stance you brought up to feel justified in it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I don't disagree much with Neph on TOR opinions. Only his PT/OT ones. https://media.giphy.com/media/Hz5q1A8AhoEHC/giphy.gif

I BRANG IT BACK!!! NOBODY HAS USED THAT MEME FOR A YEAR TILL I STARTED DOING IT!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!!!

gross

Syndicate, how is the blurb contradicted?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
gross

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Well, Valkorion is clearly above Vitiate by a quality margin, and we don't know exactly how much more powerful Plague is compared to Vitiate, so there is that. It's still wrong to argue that Valkorion's more powerful than Plagueis on the basis of him not being a Sith (which he is).

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Blurbs can be ignored if they are outright contradicted by actual showings.

Sheev's words can be ignored for two reasons; one, because the words do not come from a third person narrative statement but out of the mouth of a character meaning the statement is fallible, secondly it doesn't even show us if Sidious himself believes the statement as the scene doesn't take place from Sidious's perspective. And finally it's indicated he is faking because he was able to blast Windu's blade out of his hand with lightning and had a chance to cut Windu down early on that he did not take. All that in conjunction is enough for those who hold the stance you brought up to feel justified in it. wow sheev fanboys in full denial mode, this is getting depressing. the gut feelings and emotional biases are real. . let's just chuck out all character statements because there is an outside chance they are wrong. of course only do this when those statements hurt our beloved sheev. also even star wars.com says that whether sidious held back is totally up to dispute and gillard puts him on same level as well as GL. that means that all the chances sidious didn't take are a sign of his incompotence and as a result valkorion will tool him casually. can't beat somebody when you've got shit accuracy

Sidious is just cosmologically more powerful, by both his feats in Force unbalancing and holistic intent. You could say that this doesn't translate into combat, but Valkorion is one of the most incompetent fighters of all time, so combat probably leans even more towards Sidious.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
wow sheev fanboys in full denial mode, this is getting depressing. the gut feelings and emotional biases are real. . let's just chuck out all character statements because there is an outside chance they are wrong. of course only do this when those statements hurt our beloved sheev. also even star wars.com says that whether sidious held back is totally up to dispute and gillard puts him on same level as well as GL. that means that all the chances sidious didn't take are a sign of his incompotence and as a result valkorion will tool him casually. can't beat somebody when you've got shit accuracy You must be seriously salty if you're trying to peddle this shit.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
wow sheev fanboys in full denial mode, this is getting depressing. the gut feelings and emotional biases are real. . let's just chuck out all character statements because there is an outside chance they are wrong. of course only do this when those statements hurt our beloved sheev. also even star wars.com says that whether mace held back is totally up to dispute and gillard puts him on same level as well as GL. that means that all the chances sidious didn't take are a sign of his incompotence and valkorion will tool him casually.

Given Mace was placed on the same tier without any caveats, I.E. it wasn't specified to be an amped Mace and we know Mace was incapable of reacting other then to move his blade into a defensive position as two of his companions were cut down around him I think it's safe to say Gillard's rankings mean jack diddly squat.

As for SW.com stating the ambiguity of the scene that only helps the case. Obviously the outcome isn't in a constant state of flux. Either Mace legitimately beating Sidious or Sidious allowing him to win is the right answer. SW.com statement legitimizes the alternative I presented.

Where did all this raw energy erupt from Secura? It threatens the cosmic stability of this entire forum.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Syndicate, how is the blurb contradicted?

Which blurb? Are you referring to Sidious saying "I'm too weak! D:" before annihilating Mace?

Originally posted by The Ellimist Sidious is just cosmologically more powerful, by both his feats in Force unbalancing and holistic intent. You could say that this doesn't translate into combat, but Valkorion is one of the most incompetent fighters of all time, so combat probably leans even more towards Sidious.
Palpatine has superior showings and hype than even The Son. But you tend to be objective for The Ones. However, it goes out the window for Valkorion. Anybody with a functioning brain can see through your agenda.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Where did all this raw energy erupt from Secura? It threatens the cosmic stability of this entire forum.



Doing my best to contain it as of now but I feel it can break free at any time.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Given Mace was placed on the same tier without any caveats, I.E. it wasn't specified to be an amped Mace and we know Mace was incapable of reacting other then to move his blade into a defensive position as two of his companions were cut down around him I think it's safe to say Gillard's rankings mean jack diddly squat.

As for SW.com stating the ambiguity of the scene that only helps the case. Obviously the outcome isn't in a constant state of flux. Either Mace legitimately beating Sidious or Sidious allowing him to win is the right answer. SW.com statement legitimizes the alternative I presented.

http://m5.i.pbase.com/o3/10/634010/1/87651635.ExdwAP6i.DSC06554_s.jpg

looks like the "almighty-sheev defensive complex" is malfunctioning with the realization that sidious is truly pathetic.

yeah i'm obviously not denying that the fight is up for dispute and sidious could have put the whole thing on and risked his entire life and the sith grand plan on a gamble that could have went embarrassingly wrong very easily, but the fact is that sidious cried like a weak ass ***** and was totally humiliated for the incompetent dumbass that he is and there is no concrete evidence that it was all an elaborate scheme. and since gillard and GL basically laid the foundations of sidious/mace as a fighter their opinions have to be factored in and that would bring us to the conclusion that sidious being legitimately humiliated is the more likely scenario even if it's still up for dispute. it's looking more and more likely that sidious is inept. your gut feelings and emotional biases cannot save you.

Gillard's rankings mean nothing. We know this because apparently familiarity with somebody elses fighting style can make up for a 2 tier gap despite the gap between each tier being enormous ( as stated by Gillard ) and that fighters who have been placed on the same tier I.E. Mace and Sidious are not even close to each other as lightsaber combatants.

The concrete evidence being that Sidious had the opportunity to kill Mace multiple times throughout the fight and as we see in the movie and novel could have overwhelmed Mace with lightning at any time.

lol

This should hardly be necessary, but Secura insists on being a retard, the evidence:Yes he was lying, the fact that he went from "I'm too weak" to "UNLIMITED POWAAH" should have made that rather obvious, lmao.

that's just him bragging because he is surprised that he actually won when he was at windu's mercy and crying like a little ***** beforehand. he's obviously happy that anakin fell for his lies and now could exact his revenge on the jedi. and yes sidious may have been too strong for windu for a short time but as we can see sidious stopped shooting the lightning which suggests shitty stamina. gl is obviously being inconsistent. that along with his weak-ass bitchery beforehand and embaraasing tactical errors means he loses for sure.

please stop with the gut feelings and emotional biases. . also gillard didn't change his mind that windu=sidious when he obviously would have looked over the script and novel before making that conclusion. if all of that 'evidence' couldn't convince an expert like him it can be dismissed. stop thinking you are better than the experts.

Alright dear, I realise in the wake of overwhelming evidence to the contrary there is little you can do but restate your drivel, but in the wake of a proper response to Lucas himself flat out invalidating your stance, there is really no reason for me to continue.

My advice, go back to fellating over Clinton, it was more amusing.

Isn't Secura just adorable?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Alright dear, I realise in the wake of overwhelming evidence to the contrary there is little you can do but restate your drivel, but in the wake of a proper response to Lucas himself flat out invalidating your stance, there is really no reason for me to continue.

My advice, go back to fellating over Clinton, it was more amusing. my my.

such confidence from the sheevites. fleeing when faced by a little thing called reality. when you realise your god is nothing but crinkled old coot. . i know made up and inconsistent quotes from GL are all you can muster but i would expect better.

your choice to flee is nothing more than tacit approval of all i have said. . for that i thank you beniboybling. .

https://media.giphy.com/media/IMSq59ySKydYQ/giphy.gif

I was wrong about what I said earlier, this is just as amusing.Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Isn't Secura just adorable? The retards always are.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

I was wrong about what I said earlier, this is just as amusing.

The retards always are. just appeal to stone and petty insults i see. if this is just an effort to fit in with the crowd you really need to stop. just jumpin' on the bandwagon and fleeing when the going gets tough doesn't make you look better .

i hope you recover from the trauma of being totally owned in this debate beniboybling. there are always times we have to flee and you did the right thing. gut feelings and emotional biases just aren't up to scratch when you're head to head with someone who tells it like it is, no nonsense.

Please, continue.

Beni, you forgot the Jr novel which flat out states he was faking.

lol a novel written for little babies is taken as canon by the desperate sheevites.

Originally posted by Azronger
How does Valkorion even kill Sidious? He has nothing in his arsenal that would penetrate Sidious' Force shields.

Inb4downingshipsandkillingpilots

Nobody has answered this.

Originally posted by Azronger
Nobody has answered this.

Something about penetrating the defenses of Arcann or the Outlander or whatever, something, something.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
lol a novel written for little babies is taken as canon by the desperate sheevites.

Hardly. Just merely posting another source. Not that it's really relevant given this is TPM Sidious.

Valkorion stomps. Novel Vitiate is comparable to Plagueis, who' sparely under Palpatine by this point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine has superior showings and hype than even The Son. But you tend to be objective for The Ones. However, it goes out the window for Valkorion. Anybody with a functioning brain can see through your agenda.

Wrong. The Son has far superior hype to Sidious:

The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

-Encyclopedia: Son

---

Mystery on Mortis! Sent to discover the origin of a mysterious distress call, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are stranded on a distant planet. There, they discover three beings more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before.

-The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
lol a novel written for little babies is taken as canon by the desperate sheevites. About at your intellectual level, yeah.

Doesn't Neph think Zannah > Revan? But he recognizes Banite scaling, right?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
About at your intellectual level, yeah. and about 2 whole levels above yours. .

not to mention that only those with (sub)baby-intellectual level would accept those sources written for babies, which is why you accept them completely while i refute them. this has been a bad day for you hasn't it beniboybling??


https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=50s

Darth Sidious grew so powerful following his master's death that the tide of the Force itself shifted dramatically enough for the Jedi to notice, spirits of the ancient sith sang praises of him, the stars shook, and Sidious was "anointed" by the dark side itself.

Yeah, Sidious wins.

Sith spirits thought Valkorion was a c*nt, he loses.

How many people in this thread could debate without appealing to emotion or ideology?

Sidious wins

affecting the force on that scale is beyond Valkorion killing guys in ships lmao

Originally posted by Azronger
Wrong. The Son has far superior hype to Sidious:

The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

-Encyclopedia: Son

---

Mystery on Mortis! Sent to discover the origin of a mysterious distress call, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, and his Padawan Ahsoka Tano are stranded on a distant planet. There, they discover three beings more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before.

-The Clone Wars: Altar of Mortis
My unworthy son,

Time for some spanking.

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

---

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

Taken from Dark Empire Endnotes

--- ---

No character (Dark Side alignment) can outgun Palpatine in hype-factor and/or establish his superiority in this manner, if he existed (and perished) earlier in the timeline.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sidious is just cosmologically more powerful, by both his feats in Force unbalancing and holistic intent. You could say that this doesn't translate into combat, but Valkorion is one of the most incompetent fighters of all time, so combat probably leans even more towards Sidious.
Did you watch Episode 6? Palpatine's combat skills were far from spectacular in that.

And what makes you think that Vitiate did not cause imbalance in the Force? It is implied in the novel. Revan highlighted this fact by declaring Vitiate as the source of imbalance during his time.

Drill this fact in your skull: Darth Plagueis and Palpatine aren't the only Force-users in galactic history to have caused imbalance in the Force, and they weren't the first either. Only difference is that imbalance in the Force is central theme of George Lucas's story and got more attention due to that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My unworthy son,

Time for some spanking.

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

---

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

Taken from Dark Empire Endnotes

--- ---

No character (Dark Side alignment) can outgun Palpatine in hype-factor and/or establish his superiority in this manner, if he existed (and perished) earlier in the timeline.

"Spanking"

Anyway, the both quotes are older than either quote I presented, and thus retconned. And in the first one, "greatness" doesn't necessarily
mean power in the Force. And the second one is just Darth Vader's opinion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you watch Episode 6? Palpatine's combat skills were far from spectacular in that.

And what makes you think that Vitiate did not cause imbalance in the Force? It is implied in the novel. Revan highlighted this fact by declaring Vitiate as the source of imbalance during his time.

Drill this fact in your skull: Darth Plagueis and Palpatine aren't the only Force-users in galactic history to have caused imbalance in the Force, and they weren't the first either. Only difference is that imbalance in the Force is central theme of George Lucas's story and got more attention due to that.

There's a difference between someone imbalancing the Force slightly through their actions (which happens all the time), and someone literally forcing the Force with the power of their mind to be imbalanced. If you want to prove Vitiate accomplished the latter, present something more definitive than Revan's musings.

Originally posted by Azronger
"Spanking"

Anyway, the both quotes are older than either quote I presented, and thus retconned. And in the first one, "greatness" doesn't necessarily
mean power in the Force. And the second one is just Darth Vader's opinion.
The first revelation could be challenged but the second one? Palpatine became the most powerful expression of the Dark Side during DE era. Nothing contradicts or challenges it.

The second one is not an opinion of Darth Vader. And even you take it that way, Darth Vader had me the Son years ago.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The first revelation could be challenged but the second one? Palpatine became the most powerful expression of the Dark Side during DE era. Nothing contradicts or challenges it.

The second one is not an opinion of Darth Vader. And even you take it that way, Darth Vader had me the Son years ago.

Nowhere does it state "during DE era", just in general. And it's quite clearly stated "as Vader had warned" meaning it's just his opinion. And he met the Ones, yes, but he never witnessed their full powers on display, hence his opinion is only from a limited perspective.

Both quotes are retconned by the later sources I presented, anyway.

Originally posted by Azronger
Nowhere does it state "during DE era", just in general. And it's quite clearly stated "as Vader had warned" meaning it's just his opinion. And he met the Ones, yes, but he never witnessed their full powers on display, hence his opinion is only from a limited perspective.

Both quotes are retconned by the later sources I presented, anyway.


That revelation is from Dark Empire Endnotes. After witnessing a Force Storm over Coruscant and meeting the Emperor on Byss, Luke Skywalker came to the conclusion that Palpatine had become the most powerful expression of the Dark Side (an assessment that Darth Vader also shared). We know from new content that Darth Vader had met The Son. This information only contributes to the continuity, not challenge Palpatine's supremacy because he was growing in power with passage of time.

Palpatine spent several years siphoning the life-force of the populace of Byss to recover and become stronger than ever before. He also demonstrated new powers after his recovery.

First of all, entities are generally thought to be excluded from such quotes.

Regardless, the Son's quotes coming later means that they contradict that quote. His quotes of supremacy come from 2011+, whereas the last time that Sidious was said to be the most powerful dark sider was in 2008. Ergo, the Son's quotes outright retcon Sidious'.

Valkorion, on the other hand, doesn't have access to any quotes to contradict Sidious'. Sidious has quotes from as recent as 2015 which declare him to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all, so yes, Vitiate is absolutely encompassed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
First of all, entities are generally thought to be excluded from such quotes.
Based on?

Vitiate became an entity after the events of Revan, by the way.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Regardless, the Son's quotes coming later means that they contradict that quote. His quotes of supremacy come from 2011+, whereas the last time that Sidious was said to be the most powerful dark sider was in 2008. Ergo, the Son's quotes outright retcon Sidious'.
So real-world perspective takes precedence for you in this case?

Again, The Son perished during The Clone Wars. Palpatine had significant room to grow in power since that time. Perhaps not personally, but he began to siphon the life-force of the populace of Byss to fuel his power at some point and this continued for years. Therefore, he might have surpassed The Son at some point during DE. Nothing contradicts this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Valkorion, on the other hand, doesn't have access to any quotes to contradict Sidious'. Sidious has quotes from as recent as 2015 which declare him to be the most powerful Sith Lord of all, so yes, Vitiate is absolutely encompassed.
The quote from Force an Destiny: Core Rulebook?

"His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith."

This is not a firm assessment. It arguably entails Palpatine's political strength during OT era, not just his strength in the Dark Side.

Now, tell me a source which covers Vitiate's history in full and still declares Palpatine superior in a firm manner.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on?

Vitiate became an entity after the events of Revan, by the way.

Technically, so did Palpatine. But I'm referring to beings like the Ones, obviously.

Although it seems that there's no need to actually exclude them from quotes.



I don't know what you're talking about. I'm applying the same standards to everything here.



Do you seriously think Sidious is more powerful than the Son? And yes, it is contradicted:



I don't care about in-universe chronology. That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that out-of-universe time matters when it comes to determining the validity of quotes. Sidious' last quote of being the most powerful dark sider ever comes from 2008. The Son has quotes from 2011+ contradicting this, meaning that they take precedence. That's what you call a retcon. Vitiate doesn't have one.



No, I'm referring to this:



And they don't need to cover Vitiate's history in the same source. They just need to refer to all of history, within which Vitiate would also be included.

Besides, as I said, Vitiate doesn't have any quotes to contradict Palpatine's older ones, so they all stand. Your example with the Son was dead wrong since he does have quotes to contradict Palpatine's. Vitiate doesn't. That's the difference.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Technically, so did Palpatine. But I'm referring to beings like the Ones, obviously.

Although it seems that there's no need to actually exclude them from quotes.
Yes.

The Ones are not excluded from such assessments unless specified otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm applying the same standards to everything here.
That is the kind of logic that so-called Sheevites subscribe to in case of The Son. But not in case of Valkorion. Like you are doing here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Do you seriously think Sidious is more powerful than the Son? And yes, it is contradicted:
That statement is valid for Sith up to that point in time. However, Palpatine significantly grew in power afterwards, in Legends continuity. He became the most powerful expression of the Dark Side at some point during Dark Empire era; his powers were also above the norm at that point. The Son's quote doesn't contradicts this assessment since growth in power and superior feats are contributing factors towards Palpatine's supremacy at a later stage. The Son's quote explicitly retconned Palpatine's superiority over other practitioners of the Dark Side during PT era (only).

Now, the key term in the revelation in question is "expression of the Dark Side." The Son is an example of the expression of the Dark Side. Sith alignment is irrelevant in this case.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't care about in-universe chronology. That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that out-of-universe time matters when it comes to determining the validity of quotes. Sidious' last quote of being the most powerful dark sider ever comes from 2008. The Son has quotes from 2011+ contradicting this, meaning that they take precedence.
Duh

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, I'm referring to this:
This revelation is pointing towards Palpatine's political standing in galactic history since it distinguished mastery of the Dark Side from the most powerful aspect. Highlighted for you:

With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

Taken from Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1

Originally posted by SunRazer
And they don't need to cover Vitiate's history in the same source. They just need to refer to all of history, within which Vitiate would also be included.

Besides, as I said, Vitiate doesn't have any quotes to contradict Palpatine's older ones, so they all stand. Your example with the Son was dead wrong since he does have quotes to contradict Palpatine's. Vitiate doesn't. That's the difference.
You have yet to present a source that puts Palpatine above Vitiate in the ways of the Dark Side, in a firm manner. Good luck with that.

B/W Vitiate has accolades that promote him as the most powerful Force-user ever. The Ones are covered in that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

The Ones are not excluded from such assessments unless specified otherwise.

I'm stating the general views of the forum, but they don't necessarily need to be. Very few quotes actually include them to begin with.



I don't know if you can read but I've applied this logic in a bipartisan and equal manner to all characters in question. Accusing people of ideological bias is the only thing you can go off, it seems. Try debating without that.



No, it outright states that his power is simply beyond the domain of Sith Lords - ergo, any Sith Lord, including DE Sidious. No Sith can match his power because of the source and nature of his powers.

Nowhere is it suggested that this quote is limited to the Son's time and prior. It's from the old Encyclopedia, which encompassed all of Legends. Palpatine, at any point in time, was not exempt from this.



I'm aware of that. And indeed, that would apply to the Son - if it wasn't contradicted.



Indeed, because Force power and Force mastery are not the same.



All of them still apply, since Vitiate doesn't have any quotes to the contrary. Therefore, as he is introduced into SW media, he's expected to follow the established rules of continuity, one of which is that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Until a quote retcons this, Vitiate remains factually inferior to Sidious.



Not only are they in-universe and chronologically limited to the TOR era and before (which means that you can easily apply your former argument of the Ones getting stronger, etc.), but no, they don't include the Ones.

Also, Leland Chee has confirmed that the Father is the most powerful Force user, and that happened after TOR as well.

Oh, and feats are in favor of the Ones as well. Affecting the balance of the Force with their mere alignment/existence (with, seemingly, events in galactic history mirroring events on Mortis) to unprecedented degrees, casually holding lightsaber blades and pushing them back into their hilts, repeatedly defeating an Abeloth that was far more powerful than the one portrayed in Fate of the Jedi, threatening to destroy the galaxy with their quabbling, being able to instantly shapeshift, killing life/setting in motion storms fatal to even powerful Jedi with the mere onset of their presence, etc.

Given that the above mostly happened in TCW, a medium where depictions of the Force are extremely subdued compared to most other Legends works, then yeah, it's obvious how powerful they are.

There's other ways of making comparisons as well. Sarasu Taalon, a mere Lord of the Sith, gained power beyond even Valkorion's in FotJ when he bathed in the Pool of Knowledge - the Ones gained power from such nexuses on top of their status as Celestials. FotJ makes it abundantly clear as well that the Ones are simply beyond any other depicted individual in history.

Leg's low key attempt to put Valkoriate over the Ones is amusing yeah.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm stating the general views of the forum, but they don't necessarily need to be. Very few quotes actually include them to begin with.
Doesn't matters to me.

Palpatine's accolade from The Dark Empire Endnotes encompasses all practitioners of the Dark Side. Its scope is not limited to Sith alignment.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know if you can read but I've applied this logic in a bipartisan and equal manner to all characters in question. Accusing people of ideological bias is the only thing you can go off, it seems. Try debating without that.
Spare me the excuses.

Originally posted by SunRazer
No, it outright states that his power is simply beyond the domain of Sith Lords - ergo, any Sith Lord, including DE Sidious. No Sith can match his power because of the source and nature of his powers.

Nowhere is it suggested that this quote is limited to the Son's time and prior. It's from the old Encyclopedia, which encompassed all of Legends. Palpatine, at any point in time, was not exempt from this.
In short, we have a contradiction in this matter. However, there is some merit behind this contradiction; Palpatine, during Dark Empire era, has demonstrated powers that are beyond the norm and even The Son haven't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm aware of that. And indeed, that would apply to the Son - if it wasn't contradicted.
It (directly or indirectly) encompasses all practitioners of the Dark Side in the mythos. You expect the author to make a list while making such a claim?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Indeed, because Force power and Force mastery are not the same.
Your interpretation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
All of them still apply, since Vitiate doesn't have any quotes to the contrary. Therefore, as he is introduced into SW media, he's expected to follow the established rules of continuity, one of which is that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Until a quote retcons this, Vitiate remains factually inferior to Sidious.
And this is the mentality I am talking about. Palpatine's accolades are valid for Valkorion but not for The Son.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not only are they in-universe and chronologically limited to the TOR era and before (which means that you can easily apply your former argument of the Ones getting stronger, etc.), but no, they don't include the Ones.
You speak for BioWare now?

Valkorion is a being of unfathomable power. It is another way to assert that his powers are beyond the domain of other Force-users, Jedi or Sith.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, Leland Chee has confirmed that the Father is the most powerful Force user, and that happened after TOR as well.
My focus is on The Son.

LeG is right about the "and" thing.

It's reasonable to suggest that "greatest of all time" quotes don't refer to god-like entities in pocket universes. When a Christian says so and so is the best whatever ever, they usually implicitly exclude their omnipotent God from the superlative.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Doesn't matters to me.

Palpatine's accolade from The Dark Empire Endnotes encompasses all practitioners of the Dark Side. Its scope is not limited to Sith alignment.

I already agreed with you on that.



In other words, you can claim that other people are biased, etc, but you don't permit them to justify their actions? Or claim the same of you?

I'm glad you're not a judge. In part because of that and in part because you don't accept evidence right in front of your face.



Either you're playing dumb, or it's not an act.

The Son's quotes come from AFTER Palpatine's. Hence, they retcon Palpatine's quotes out of existence, and take precedence.

And Palpatine as of DE hasn't shown anything beyond the Son.



God above, you can't even accept an agreement from me?



So yours is right, just 'cuz, but mine is wrong since you don't want to accept it? Right.



Because the Son has quotes that retcon Palpatine's out of existence, whereas Valkorion does not. This is about as hard to understand as 1 + 1 = 2, but obviously this is evidence that you don't understand that either.



In the same way that you speak for all the authors of the Palpatine quotes when you dismiss them, yeah



About as unfathomable as your inability to follow the discussion.



Who's still greater than either Palpatine or Valkorion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I already agreed with you on that.
Good

Originally posted by SunRazer
In other words, you can claim that other people are biased, etc, but you don't permit them to justify their actions? Or claim the same of you?

I'm glad you're not a judge. In part because of that and in part because you don't accept evidence right in front of your face.
I am giving you a dose of your own medicine. Sheevites switch to real-world perspective to justify superiority of The Son over Palpatine in ways of the Force but forget to do that in case of Valkorion. Guys like you have no right to accuse others of bias.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Either you're playing dumb, or it's not an act.

The Son's quotes come from AFTER Palpatine's. Hence, they retcon Palpatine's quotes out of existence, and take precedence.

And Palpatine as of DE hasn't shown anything beyond the Son.
Again, The Son's accolades do not retcon Palpatine's accolade from the Dark Empire Endnotes out of existence, only challenge it.

Let us reexamine the evidence:-

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

Taken from the Dark Empire Endnotes

1. The Son was stronger than Palpatine during The Clone Wars. Full stop.

But:

2. Palpatine was eager to improve his understanding of the ways of the Force. He somehow acquired access to new sources of knowledge, learned new powers from them and also discovered methods to increase his strength along the way.

3. He saw in Byss a suitable place for his Dark experiments and began to siphon energy of its populace to fuel his strength.

4. A time came when Darth Vader (who had met both The Son and Palpatine), felt that Palpatine has become the most powerful expression of the Dark Side. Luke Skywalker also felt the same during his second meeting with Palpatine.

Therefore, The Son's story only contributes to the existing story of Palpatine in Legends continuity, not retcon it out of existence.

Palpatine was more of an entity than a normal Sith Lord during his Dark Empire story arc. His powers were also off-the-charts during this era. The Son is stronger than Palpatine in canon (no ifs and buts in this case) but this situation changed at a later stage in Legends continuity. It is all logical.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So yours is right, just 'cuz, but mine is wrong since you don't want to accept it? Right.
You should take your own advice.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because the Son has quotes that retcon Palpatine's out of existence, whereas Valkorion does not. This is about as hard to understand as 1 + 1 = 2, but obviously this is evidence that you don't understand that either.
1. Valkorion is an entity
2. Valkorion is not a Sith
3. Valkorion is a being of unfathomable power (another way of asserting that his powers are beyond the domain of Jedi and/or Sith in general)

There is not a single bloody quote out there that covers Valkorion's story in full and declare Palpatine superior after that. Not a single.

Originally posted by SunRazer
In the same way that you speak for all the authors of the Palpatine quotes when you dismiss them, yeah
My interpretation is as valid as yours in that case. Sorry to disappoint you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
About as unfathomable as your inability to follow the discussion.
http://www.infiniteunknown.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/irony-alert-ironic.jpg

Originally posted by SunRazer
Who's still greater than either Palpatine or Valkorion.
No.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am giving you a dose of your own medicine. Sheevites switch to real-world perspective to justify superiority of The Son over Palpatine in ways of the Force but forget to do that in case of Valkorion. Guys like you have no right to accuse others of bias.

Nobody accused you of bias in this thread (though they didn't have to). You were the first one to attack other people's credibility off the bat. I did, however, say that the only thing you could do here was accuse others of ideological bias, and you've proven me right.

I've applied the same logic to both the Son and Valkorion. If they have a quote of supremacy that encompasses Palpatine and comes from after Palpatine's, then they supersede Palpatine. If not, then they're expected to obey one of the established rules of continuity - that Sidious is the most powerful. In the Son's case, such a quote exists - and I've provided it to you. In Valkorion's case, no such quote exists, so he's expected to obey such rules.

All you've been doing here is accusing others of bias and double standards without any basis, and you just keep repeating yourself. Try something new.



Yes, that comes from the 90's. The Son's quote comes from the 2010's. Hence, they take precedence. This isn't difficult to understand.



That was never suggested. The Son was more powerful than any Sith, full stop. And it comes from the Legends databank, which means it refers to all of history. DE Palpatine is included in that.



You're applying in-universe chronology, which I already said doesn't matter with regards to quotes that encompass all of Legends. As I said, a quote from the 10's > a quote from the 90's. It's that simple.

What's funny is that you're accusing me of double standards here, yet you're the one who doesn't apply this to Valkorion. Not only is Valkorion from before Palpatine's time, but he's also an expression of the dark side.

Vader never witnessed the full extent of the Son's powers, which were curbed on Mortis.



The quote I mentioned was from and included all of Legends. It's not from Canon.

Whether you choose to go with either accolades or feats, the Son > Palpatine > Valkorion.



Oh, I do.



So? I thought we just agreed that entities were counted.



Oh?





Even Vader had "immeasurable" power. Besides, the quote you're referring to is from Scourge's perspective. If we're including such quotes, then Vader has power beyond imagination.



You don't need to cover somebody's story in full. You only need to refer to all of history, within which Valkorion would also be covered.

Besides, you've just exposed another pitiful double standard. None of Palpatine's supremacy quotes come from sources that cover the Son's story in full, either.



I'm glad we cleared that up. Just then, you were acting as if your interpretation was superior to mine. So we're at an impasse.

@SunRazer

Time to end this.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nobody accused you of bias in this thread (though they didn't have to). You were the first one to attack other people's credibility off the bat. I did, however, say that the only thing you could do here was accuse others of ideological bias, and you've proven me right.

I've applied the same logic to both the Son and Valkorion. If they have a quote of supremacy that encompasses Palpatine and comes from after Palpatine's, then they supersede Palpatine. If not, then they're expected to obey one of the established rules of continuity - that Sidious is the most powerful. In the Son's case, such a quote exists - and I've provided it to you. In Valkorion's case, no such quote exists, so he's expected to obey such rules.

All you've been doing here is accusing others of bias and double standards without any basis, and you just keep repeating yourself. Try something new.
An old source The Official Star Wars Fact File asserts that Darth Bane has surpassed all Sith in power and knowledge before him.

So according to your logic, Darth Bane > The Sith Emperor, Darth Nihilus, Exar Kun and any other super-strong ancient Sith. Coz they are expected to obey so-called rules of continuity.

You see the flaw in your logic now?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, that comes from the 90's. The Son's quote comes from the 2010's. Hence, they take precedence. This isn't difficult to understand.
Per that logic, Valkorion's entry demands reevaluation of Palpatine's standing in the lore as well.

Otherwise, Darth Bane > Valkorion?

Originally posted by SunRazer
That was never suggested. The Son was more powerful than any Sith, full stop. And it comes from the Legends databank, which means it refers to all of history. DE Palpatine is included in that.

You're applying in-universe chronology, which I already said doesn't matter with regards to quotes that encompass all of Legends. As I said, a quote from the 10's > a quote from the 90's. It's that simple.
See above

Originally posted by SunRazer
What's funny is that you're accusing me of double standards here, yet you're the one who doesn't apply this to Valkorion. Not only is Valkorion from before Palpatine's time, but he's also an expression of the dark side.

Vader never witnessed the full extent of the Son's powers, which were curbed on Mortis.
Yes, you have double-standards. Your responses prove it.

Valkorion is supposed to be inferior to Palpatine due to rules of continuity. But The Son is supposed to be an exception. I suppose that Valkorion is supposed to be inferior to Darth Bane as well due to rules of continuity.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Even Vader had "immeasurable" power. Besides, the quote you're referring to is from Scourge's perspective. If we're including such quotes, then Vader has power beyond imagination.
Shows your ignorance.

Over the millennia, Valkorion wore many faces and names: Lord Vitiate; Emperor of the Sith; Eternal Emperor of Zakuul. For centuries upon centuries, he shaped and manipulated galactic events, bending the arc of history to his will during his obsessive quest for immortality. A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

From a codex entry titled Fall of Valkorion (To be revealed in the upcoming content)

Now, that is a neutral assessment. Not an opinion of another character.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You don't need to cover somebody's story in full. You only need to refer to all of history, within which Valkorion would also be covered.

Besides, you've just exposed another pitiful double standard. None of Palpatine's supremacy quotes come from sources that cover the Son's story in full, either.
Really?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm glad we cleared that up. Just then, you were acting as if your interpretation was superior to mine. So we're at an impasse.
I WTFpwned your case, my friend.

Time to celebrate your defeat with Coca Cola and other delicious items.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

Time to end this. Your agenda will not work anymore.

You responded to about three things and conceded to the rest. I accept those concessions.



It's not an old source, and it refers to modern Sith history. People love to take it out of context.



How convincing. Your responses prove your stupidity and inability to follow basic conversations. I doubt you have the intelligence to even comprehend a double standard, given how many of them you blatantly make with each of your posts.



Fair enough. My point about Vader having immeasurable power still stands, though.



You didn't even try to rebut properly. I accept your concession.

^^^

Utterly wrong.

I addressed it in the second part of the post, lmfao. As I said, either you're playing dumb, or it's not an act.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

Utterly wrong.

Nice ninja edit. As for the post itself, it's about as convincing as a doctor trying to inject me with a used needle.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You responded to about three things and conceded to the rest. I accept those concessions.
I respond to only those points that matter in this discussion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not an old source, and it refers to modern Sith history. People love to take it out of context.
Really?

From The Official Star Wars Fact File

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5207832-8214746295-Bane..PNG

Originally posted by SunRazer
How convincing. Your responses prove your stupidity and inability to follow basic conversations. I doubt you have the intelligence to even comprehend a double standard, given how many of them you blatantly make with each of your posts.
You have mental issues, my friend.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Fair enough. My point about Vader having immeasurable power still stands, though.
Is that an opinion of another character?

Originally posted by SunRazer
You didn't even try to rebut properly. I accept your concession.
I did.

You conveniently overlooked the flaws that I pointed out in your arguments in this discussion with baseless assumptions and accusations. You are a moron.

From The Official Star Wars Fact File

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5207832-8214746295-Bane..PNG

So.... Sidious > Plagueis > Tenebrous >>>>>>> Zannah > Bane > Valkorion?
Seems legit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I respond to only those points that matter in this discussion.

Which would be all of them. The bulk of the part where I was debunking your fallacious double standards didn't get a response. That's a concession.



Actually, I looked at the quote again and some of the discussions here. You were right before - it is an old quote. Apparently it's from before Drew's Bane Trilogy was written, LMFAO.

And that retcons it indeed, since PoD Bane is established to have inferior knowledge to Darth Revan, which contradicts the "more knowledge and mastery than any Sith prior" bit. So in this case, the quote is indeed contradicted and retconned out of existence. And even if not, it's incorrect anyway (like Yoda being unable to beat Dooku in the Force), which is in fact, grounds to dismiss it.

Besides, if worst comes to worst, you can feasibly deny the quote on the basis that Bane doesn't approach Vitiate in power by all means veritable - which includes showings. In Sidious and the Son's case, showings actually support the hype. They do have showings surpassing Valkorion, and the Son Palpatine. Palpatine has the added benefit of being supported by a whole host of quotes from different times, sources and authors. You might be able to dismiss a single flimsy quote if it's unsubstantiated and illogical, but in Palpatine's case (or the Son's), that's not so. And that's supportable with evidence like feats and other quotes.



If it's coming from you, that means I'm normal.



No, it's not.





Your rebuttal was "I win". I think we all know who's the moron here.



I addressed those points, then you refused to address mine because I apparently overlooked it. You can't be much stupider than this. Seriously, with this level of intellectual capacity, you couldn't operate a tart shop.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
So.... Sidious > Plagueis > Tenebrous >>>>>>> Zannah > Bane > Valkorion?
Seems legit.
You forgot one thing: Palpatine > The Son

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You forgot one thing: Palpatine > The Son
Nah, the Son has quotes that put him > Sidious.
But at least you agree that Sidious is >>> Valkorion

Originally posted by SunRazer

If it's coming from you, that means I'm normal.

LMFAO

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which would be all of them. The bulk of the part where I was debunking your fallacious double standards didn't get a response. That's a concession.



Actually, I looked at the quote again and some of the discussions here. You were right before - it is an old quote. It's from before Drew's Bane Trilogy was written, LMFAO.

And that retcons it indeed, since PoD Bane is established to have inferior knowledge to Darth Revan, which contradicts the "more knowledge and mastery than any Sith prior" bit. So in this case, the quote is indeed contradicted and retconned out of existence.



If it's coming from you, that means I'm normal.



No, it's not.





Your rebuttal was "I win". I think we all know who's the moron here.



I addressed those points, then you refused to address mine because I apparently overlooked it. You can't be much stupider than this. Seriously, with this level of intellectual capacity, you couldn't operate a tart shop.
Emotional rants do not make your case credible.

I presented a logically sound assessment of how Palpatine would be superior to The Son as of Dark Empire. Your counterargument is plain rejection of assessment on the grounds that Palpatine's accolade is from a much older source, that predates introduction of The Son to the mythos. However, you are imposing rules of continuity over Valkorion. I countered this by citing the example of Darth Bane and you have yet to acknowledge it.

You do not have the right to accuse others of bias and double-standards. You need to get your head examined because you are behaving like a moron now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, I looked at the quote again and some of the discussions here. You were right before - it is an old quote. Apparently it's from before Drew's Bane Trilogy was written, LMFAO.

And that retcons it indeed, since PoD Bane is established to have inferior knowledge to Darth Revan, which contradicts the "more knowledge and mastery than any Sith prior" bit. So in this case, the quote is indeed contradicted and retconned out of existence. And even if not, it's incorrect anyway (like Yoda being unable to beat Dooku in the Force), which is in fact, grounds to dismiss it.

Besides, if worst comes to worst, you can feasibly deny the quote on the basis that Bane doesn't approach Vitiate in power by all means veritable - which includes showings. In Sidious and the Son's case, showings actually support the hype. They do have showings surpassing Valkorion, and the Son Palpatine.
Here we go again.

Darth Bane Trilogy doesn't retcons that statement at all. Darth Bane grew in strength and advanced his knowledge further as time passed by and he gained access to additional sources of knowledge during his journey. He might be inferior to Darth Revan during the events of Path of Destruction but after that?

Recheck the statement that I highlighted earlier:

Darth Bane had gained more knowledge and mastery of Sith techniques and power than anyone who had come before him.

This revelation covers the entire story arc of Darth Bane. It isn't time specific.

---

As far as showings are concerned, Valkorion also has superior showings than both The Son and Palpatine in some areas.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emotional rants do not make your case credible.

Then there should be alarm bells going off in your head.

And no, emotional rants aren't meant to make your case credible at all. They're only justified when you make a point as well, not on their own.



God above, you still can't read. I get that English is not your first language, but seriously, post like a debater, not a troglodyte.

Let's make this simple:

1) When a quote is presented without grounds for dismissal, it is taken as fact.

2) Everything released in SW continuity from after such a quote is expected to obey it.

3) The only time something can disobey quotes is when it has a newer quote of its own that contradicts the older quote. This is what we call a retcon. The new quote is now the precedent.

4) The Son does have a newer quote that contradicts Palpatine's quote about being the dark side's most powerful expression (and yes, it refers to ALL of Legends, not just TCW, since it's from the Legends databank). Valkorion has NO quotes that contradict Palpatine's quotes of supremacy, whatsoever.



Everybody has not only the right, but the obligation to call you out for both bias and double-standards.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here we go again.

Darth Bane Trilogy doesn't retcons that statement at all. Darth Bane grew in strength and advanced his knowledge as time passed by. He might be inferior to Darth Revan during the events of Path of Destruction but after that?

Recheck the statement:

Darth Bane had gained more knowledge and mastery of Sith techniques and power than anyone who had come before him.

This revelation covers the entire story arc of Darth Bane. It isn't time specific.

I feel like I'm doing charity work for the psychologists.

The quote refers to Path of Destruction. Do you want to know why? Because you cut out the pivotal context of the quote.



Guess what the last part refers to? That's right, destroying the old Sith Order and replacing it with the Rule of Two. And when did he do that? Path of Destruction, by which time he still couldn't properly comprehend information from Darth Revan's holocron. That's a blatant contradiction.



Yes, some areas. Pretty much areas where the Son or Palpatine haven't shown said powers at all. But in comparing raw power (the Son & Palpatine), or common areas (Palpatine, and in some ways, the Son), that's not so. If you want me to draw a comparison, I can.

Finally, we're making progress.

I forgot that you couldn't quote huge posts. This will be painful indeed.



I don't scrutinize Bane's accolade only. If I did, you'd hear me claiming that Dooku was too strong for Yoda to defeat in the Force, that Mace is better than Yoda, and that Vader's invincible. You've already heard me critical analysis of both the Son's and Palpatine's accolades.



Palpatine's exhibited the ability to devastate worlds as well, and the Son exhibited the capacity to ruin the galaxy with his squabbling with the Daughter.



I extend all of these principles to every character, bar none.



I don't dismiss the possibility of Valkorion's superiority at all. In fact, as soon as he gets an appropriate accolade that ranks him above Palpatine, I'm fully willing to concede to that. But that hasn't happened yet. There's no reason for him to not obey Sidious' accolades.



The problem here is that you have the same mindset that you just accused me of - you're dismissing the possibility of Palpatine's superiority. You're bound by such dogmas of Valkorion's superiority that find you inconceivable for TPM Sidious, who's obviously not very much on your radar, to possibly capable of beating Valkorion. And that's just a matter of your preconceived notions - not my fault.



TPM Sidious would curbstomp Venamis, so no.



Sorry, but the Son's accolade of superiority to all Sith comes from a source detailing all of Legends, not Canon. I've told you this at least half a dozen times now.



No, it's not. Posting a quote and not offering any explanation for its purpose here.

Besides, the EU hardly depicts Palpatine as the movies do. Particularly DE. Your point (or at least what I hope is your point) is invalid.



Now, I did not assert that that accolade cannot be scrutinized on the basis of newer content; it should be. Otherwise, cross-era comparisons would be utterly pointless and debates lot less constructive and fun. We already have a number of trolls here, taking advantage of such accolades and making the debating environment lot less constructive with their misinformed one-liners and sheer ignorance.



You mean a telekinetic wave he charged up during Kas'im's monologue on a nexus that dwarfed Korriban? Please. That's hardly overwhelming.



Power isn't the same as mastery.

Anyways, Plagueis had no gift for Sorcery but his power basically enabled him to learn it regardless. Which is pretty impressive. It's not as if Nihilus has exhibited any form of Sorcery himself.



lmao

Why don't we start with raw power?

Still Sidious.

Lmfao, Valkorion stomps and it's not even debatable.

Legend got raped.

Sidious one-shots

Revan > TPM Sidious.

Valkorian, Sidious is too early in his career.