Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Can Maul as of Son of Dathomir replicate Dooku's fight on the invisible hand

Same circumstances as the movie/novel

Who wins

I don't see why not. Maul already completely overpowered Kenobi's Force defenses and ragdolled him on at least three occasions, which is exactly what Dooku did on the Invisible hand.

If you mean could he hold them both off long enough for him to knock Obi-Wan out, then again, yes. Dooku is not a defensive fighter and his still (barely) managed to hold them off. Maul should be able to do the same, given his physical superiority and talent at acrobatics.

He ragdolls both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same.

The collateral damage blasts Sidious to the outer space.

Lol, no.

Dooku isn't a defensive fighter? He's certainly more defensive than Maul, lol.

Nah, he couldn't.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah, he couldn't.

Maul lacks Dooku's encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru, any familiarity with Anakin, and his (Dooku's) performance against other tier 9's. Tyranus' style is also, in my opinion, better for engagements like this.

Maul shouldn't be able to replicate Dooku's performance, no.

Not sure he'd be able to separate them to begin with.

I have the impression that Maul would be more suited to do the solo part against Anakin but not the 2vs1

Originally posted by SunRazer
]Maul lacks Dooku's encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru,
It didn't seem to harm his efforts against Qui-Gon(who Dooku trained, by the way).
any familiarity with Anakin, That cuts both ways. Anakin faced Dooku multiple times, but never someone as physical, ferocious and unpredictable as Maul. While it's noted in ROTS that Anakin and Obi-Wan learned from their defeat on Genosis and prepared themselves thoroughly for their next encounter with Dooku.

Come to think of it, Anakin has faced Ventress and Savage(briefly), who are both lesser versions of Maul in all respects, and his record against them isn't exactly stellar.

and his (Dooku's) performance against other tier 9's. As far as I can tell, that only means Yoda, and he barely got out alive. And Yoda was, to put it bluntly, holding back.

Maul seemed to be doing fine against both Mace and Aalya Secura though.
Tyranus' style is also, in my opinion, better for engagements like this.

It's better for him in the sense that its efficiency allowed him to conserve energy. But that was never Maul's problem.

And Dooku never had the initiative on the Invisible Hand. He spent the whole time barely keeping it together. On the other hand Juyo is dynamic, ferocious and unpredictable. Just the perfect thing to throw a wrench into Obi-Wan and Anakin's perfect coordination and teamwork.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I have the impression that Maul would be more suited to do the solo part against Anakin
Why?

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Why?

Better physical capacity and more aggressive fighting style.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Better physical capacity and more aggressive fighting style.
Nah. That doesn't really helps him against Skyguy.

Originally posted by Unbowed
It didn't seem to harm his efforts against Qui-Gon(who Dooku trained, by the way).

I didn't say a lack of knowledge harms someone, but having that knowledge helps you significantly. It basically meant that Obi-Wan had no offensive ability against Dooku. Maul doesn't have that, so that's an advantage of Dooku's that he's lost, no matter how you spin it.



RotS Anakin is as physical and ferocious as Maul, though - that's the thing. And he's better at the physicals.



The Savage that Anakin fought seems to be stronger than Maul, and certainly much stronger than he normally is.

As for Ventress, that tends to be just TCW. RotS Anakin is far and away superior to the versions of Anakkin that you cited, by the way.



Yoda wasn't holding back per the script, and no obvious implication of him holding back was in either the film or the novel. You only have the junior novel, where Yoda pretty much only fights defensively and Dooku can't break through said defenses. But there's sources suggesting that Dooku was near-equal to Yoda as well, and other sources suggesting that the Count legitimately contended with Yoda.

Sidious was holding back to an almost certainly greater degree (than Yoda) against Maul, and yet, even with Savage's aid, Maul was being outright controlled in his fight with Sidious. That wasn't so with Dooku against Yoda. There was a legitimate sense of contention - one utterly missing from Maul vs Sidious until the end part where Maul was enraged over his brother's death, and even then, Sidious was confirmed to be toying with him.

Likewise, Dooku performs better against Yoda in the movie script that Maul does against Sidious in Shadow Conspiracy, sources in which both Yoda and Sidious are going all-out.



Based on a single snapshot?



No, it's better because it allows him to address his opponent's technique instead of just bullrushing into his opponents, one of which is better than Maul at the whole bullrushing thing to begin with. Exploiting momentary lapses and flaws in your opponent's technique is going to be a lot more effective here than charging headlong into a tier 9 and a tier 8 that works with said tier 9 perfectly.



That's according to the novel only. Dooku fares better in the film and the junior novel.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Nah. That doesn't really helps him against Skyguy.

I think it does. His physical capacity can help him overcome, even if partially, one of Dooku's major weakness in that bout - the intensity of Sky's blows. His aggressive fighting style can help him to possibly disrupt Skywalker momentum right and there.

That's a mere personal opinion, though.

The novel doesn't state that it was a weakness of Dooku's - just that Anakin's Djem So was better at it, as it should be compared to most, if not all, styles.

Anyways, Maul's emphasis on a more physically-oriented dueling style is likely to leave him worse off since Anakin's faster, stronger, and more skilled. Dooku's emphasis on technique at least allows him to take advantage of momentary flaws in Anakin's fighting better than Maul can. And if Nick Gillard is any indication, taking advantage of those momentary flaws is basically the only thing you can do against Anakin unless you're Yoda or Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The novel doesn't state that it was a weakness of Dooku's - just that Anakin's Djem So was better at it, as it should be compared to most, if not all, styles.

Anyways, Maul's emphasis on a more physically-oriented dueling style is likely to leave him worse off since Anakin's faster, stronger, and more skilled.

It was a relative weakness, yes - I'm not saying Dooku is weak against strong opponents, only that was a major weakness against Skywalker specifically (and thus, relative) to the point Dooku's force reserves were almost completely drained just to withstand Skywalker's "meteor strikes" blows. Maul being able to press one or two blows with a more aggressive style should be capable to affect Skywalker momentum, even if just to last some seconds more.

It's more of Anakin being just that powerful.

Maul's going to clash head-on with Anakin, and lose, because Anakin's just better than him in everything. At least Dooku can exploit a mistake or something due to the precise nature of his form.

Anakin is so powerful that it constitutes a relative weakness to Dooku in comparison, that's my point...especially when Dooku's perception was almost reduced to normal human levels just to fuel his strenght to not be overwhelmed by Anakin's.

I never said Maul would win. Only that he could potentialy do better the solo part of the fight.

I know. My point is that it'd likely apply to Maul as well.

I'm disputing the fact that he'd do better. Both would be flat-out overwhelmed in solo combat, since Anakin's just better. I'm saying that Dooku's ability to exploit potential mistakes in Anakin's fighting would likely leave him better off than Maul.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say a lack of knowledge harms someone, but having that knowledge helps you significantly. It basically meant that Obi-Wan had no offensive ability against Dooku. Maul doesn't have that, so that's an advantage of Dooku's that he's lost, no matter how you spin it.

If Maul had no trouble against Qui-Gon, probably the strongest Ataru user after Yoda, I daresay Obi-Wan's journeyman efforts won't phase him.

Besides, you haven't even established that Dooku has "an encyclopaedic knowledge" of Ataru and that Obi-Wan lacks it.

If anything, it's the other way around. It's established that mastery of multiple forms is required to even attempt Juyo. Dooku on the other hand disdained any forms other than his own.


Is he though? Even Anakin at his most ferocious failed to breach Obi-Wan's defenses, either in sabers or in the Force. Maul did overpower Obi-Wan in the Force, and he was going to eventually overpower him in sabers in their first duel post-revival.

And I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Anakin is stronger physically. Have you read what the teenage Maul did in Lockdown?


Don't delude yourself. Savage was never shown, stated or implied to be on the same level as Maul.

Savage: "I'm not like you... I never was".


There are no "versions". It's the same character. Anakin has grown in power steadily throughout the Clone Wars and he was particularly prepared on the Invisible Hand, but the difference is not as dramatic as you're implying.


Do you think Yoda fought Dooku with the same fervor he fought Sidious?

On the one hand Yoda is a Jedi, not a savage beast like Sidious. He uses as much force as is necessary. Then there's the emotional baggage of fighting his prized pupil and someone he loved.

And I think it's mentioned somewhere(the junior novel) that he intended to capture, not kill. Coincidentally, that's also exactly what happened in Dark Rendezvous.


It's apples and oranges. As I explained above, Jedi and Sith fight differently. When Sidious got serious(after Savage was killed) he fought with the ferocity of a cornered wolverine. Even in the fight of his life in the Senate Rotunda, Yoda never 'unleashed' himself. It's not the Jedi way.

I doubt Dooku would have fared any better in Maul's place.

Based on a single snapshot?

Sure, why not?


I'm not sure why you're calling it "bullrushing". Maul is one of the most technically skilled duelists in history. Savage is bullrushing, not Maul.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know. My point is that it'd likely apply to Maul as well.

I'm disputing the fact that he'd do better. Both would be flat-out overwhelmed in solo combat, since Anakin's just better. I'm saying that Dooku's ability to exploit potential mistakes in Anakin's fighting would likely leave him better off than Maul.

Fair enough. I think Maul potentially meeting Anakin head on can be a mitigating factor to Sky's siginificant superiority, and better than the approach Dooku originally opted for at first and was cornered on later.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Dooku is not a defensive fighter and his still (barely) managed to hold them off.

"Form II allowed an initiate to defend themself against an opponent with minimal effort, while placing a heavy focus on avoiding disarmament."

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul lacks Dooku's encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru, any familiarity with Anakin, and his (Dooku's) performance against other tier 9's. Tyranus' style is also, in my opinion, better for engagements like this.

Maul shouldn't be able to replicate Dooku's performance, no.

I think you make a good argument, but I disagree with the inherent contradiction you make in this post. Familiarity with Anakin isn't an advantage Dooku possesses in Legends because it was new information to him that Skywalker was a Djem So expert. I know you can, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dooku not engage Skywalker since AotC in Legends? They had a close call in LoE, but they didn't engage in lightsaber combat.

Dooku would have familiarity in canon, where TCW Maul exists, but if we're using canon fights then you can't use the argument that he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru since he revealed that during Anakin and Obi Wan's ploy which is strictly a legends feat, as the ploy isn't portrayed in the film which is canon.

Originally posted by Kurk

"Form II allowed an initiate to defend themself against an opponent with minimal effort, while placing a heavy focus on avoiding disarmament."
That doesn't make him a defensive fighter, dummy.

Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.

A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.

Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.

Originally posted by Unbowed
If Maul had no trouble against Qui-Gon, probably the strongest Ataru user after Yoda, I daresay Obi-Wan's journeyman efforts won't phase him.

There's no basis for Qui-Gon's Ataru being better than Obi-Wan's, who we know to have both mastered Ataru and attained a general level of skill beyond that of Qui-Gon's.



Obi-Wan lacks what? I never said anything about Obi-Wan lacking knowledge on Ataru.

For Dooku:





Dooku disdained other forms, but he knew them all. That' show he taught Grievous all the forms, and why in addition to "classical fighting techniques", he also knows a variety of untraditional combat forms from all over the galaxy:





You mean a severely hindered Anakin at his most ferocious. And in the novel, he does breach Obi-Wan's Force defenses, albeit Obi-Wan had yet to "let go" at that point.

Maul only overpowered Obi-Wan in sabers after mentally unhinging him with Dun Moch. Moreover, the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's fighting styles inside-out obviously drastically reduces any disparity between them. It's a circumstantial comparison between the two - one that Maul has no part in.

It's a fact that Anakin's a better duelist than RotS Obi-Wan.













I have. Nothing that compares to nearly breaking the bones of beings whose Force augmented durability supersedes that of the interiors of capital ships.



That's because Savage never reaches the levels of rage that he does in Witches of the Mist ever again. It's practically PIS in that episode. Maul's never shown that level of power.



You know full well what I mean.





According to the film script, yes. Yoda attempted to decapitate Dooku.



Yes, and as I said, that's only one depiction of the fight. Other versions contradict it.



He did against an equal/better of Sidious'.



For the same reason that you could take a snap-shot of Dooku kicking Anakin away whilst Choking Obi-Wan and deduce that he was stomping them.



You know what I mean - aggressive, front-up fighting.

Originally posted by Unbowed
That doesn't make him a defensive fighter, dummy.

Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.

A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.

Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.
So you're saying that probably the best Makashi user in SW is primarily an offensive fighter?

Originally posted by Solar Power
I think you make a good argument, but I disagree with the inherent contradiction you make in this post. Familiarity with Anakin isn't an advantage Dooku possesses in Legends because it was new information to him that Skywalker was a Djem So expert. I know you can, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dooku not engage Skywalker since AotC in Legends? They had a close call in LoE, but they didn't engage in lightsaber combat.

Dooku would have familiarity in canon, where TCW Maul exists, but if we're using canon fights then you can't use the argument that he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru since he revealed that during Anakin and Obi Wan's ploy which is strictly a legends feat, as the ploy isn't portrayed in the film which is canon.

I'm referring to composite versions.

If we're basing it off Canon, Dooku's flat-out more skilled and actually physically stronger than Maul. For Legends, my points stand, except for familiarity with Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm referring to composite versions.

If we're basing it off Canon, Dooku's flat-out more skilled and actually physically stronger than Maul.

Ah, a sticky situation then. Composite always confuses me because it always seems pick-and-choose with sources.

Are you referring to his performance against Yoda to make that claim? Can't think of anything else in new canon that overtly places Dooku above Maul.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no basis for Qui-Gon's Ataru being better than Obi-Wan's, who we know to have both mastered Ataru and attained a general level of skill beyond that of Qui-Gon's.

Sure there is. Obi-Wan did an about face after TPM and took up Soresu because Ataru failed both him and Qui-Gon. It became his main form and the one he spent more than a decade perfecting. He can no doubt employ Ataru, but there's no basis to claim he came close to Qui-Gon's level of mastery.



I meant to say Maul. There's no proof Maul lacks "encyclopaedic knowledge" of Ataru given the stringent requirements needed to even attempt Juyo, given who Maul's master was, given he spent every waking moment perfecting his lightsaber technique.


That's just Dooku being Dooku. He thinks everyone and everything is beneath him.

But your point is noted.



You seem to be particularly inconsistent and dare I say hypocritical in cherry picking your sources.

You dismissed the novel in favor of the film when it suited you, now it's the other way around. Which is it?


So what? These are not automatons fighting. The mental component is very important. I don't see why you're dismissing it.


I never said he wasn't. Just that Maul is more ferocious and his style is more aggressive.

And the facts are the facts. Even when his furnace heart was at its hottest, Anakin never simply picked Obi-Wan up with the Force and choked him, slammed him against the wall or pushed him to the effect that he was stunned and dropped his lightsaber. Why not?
And what if Maul had to use mental trickery to unbalance Obi-Wan? Why didn't Anakin do the same?

That's a mark in Maul's favor as far as I'm concerned.


That's the thing. Maul does. Read Lockdown. And Maul did all he did without using the Force.


You're grasping at straws. I repeat, Savage was never implied to be in the same league as Darth Maul. Not by a long shot.


He didn't though. Even if we assume Yoda was going all out, judging by his exhausted state in the film and the fact that he had to distract Yoda to save his hide, my interpretation is far more plausible than yours.

Let me put it this way: say it's Sidious instead of Yoda in that hangar. Can Dooku last as long? Hell no.



And I would be completely justified. He was stomping them at that time.

I never claimed that Maul could beat Mace and Secura, but that brief interval where he fought evenly with them does go some way toward establishing that he has showings against a tier 9, which you claimed he lacked.

What, die?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he could do that.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure there is. Obi-Wan did an about face after TPM and took up Soresu because Ataru failed both him and Qui-Gon. It became his main form and the one he spent more than a decade perfecting. He can no doubt employ Ataru, but there's no basis to claim he came close to Qui-Gon's level of mastery.
iirc he didn't make Soresu his primary form until the Clone Wars, and he would've continued to develop all of his techniques regardless.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure there is. Obi-Wan did an about face after TPM and took up Soresu because Ataru failed both him and Qui-Gon. It became his main form and the one he spent more than a decade perfecting. He can no doubt employ Ataru, but there's no basis to claim he came close to Qui-Gon's level of mastery.

That depends on what level of mastery you think Qui-Gon has to begin with. We know Obi-Wan did attain mastery of Ataru and his general level of combative skill is beyond Qui-Gon's. That's the most we'll know. The rest is down to arbitrary judgment.

Also, Obi-Wan studied Soresu, but he didn't abandon Ataru. I don't believe Soresu became his primary form until some time in TCW.



That's an appeal to ignorance. "There's no proof this is wrong or missing, therefore it's true".

Prove that Maul has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru. Don't ask me to prove a negative.



I realize that. My point is that Dooku's disdain of other forms refers to practical usage, but he knows all the forms nevertheless.



I didn't dismiss anything there. I just brought up the showing from the novel because it was worth mentioning. Nowhere did I invalidate the film.

More importantly, my policy is to consider all sources. I rarely invalidate sources - I just consider certain things to take precedence when they appear in more sources.



Again, I didn't dismiss anything. I'm saying that on a basis of physical ability, which is what we were comparing, Maul is only equal to TCW Obi-Wan, not better.

I doubt Maul would be able to bring successful Dun Moch to bear here anyway. He doesn't know Anakin, and Obi-Wan seems to have gotten over Qui-Gon's death by now, which is why the taunt in Revenge was a one-time thing. He didn't manage to do it again in Revival, when he needed it.



Anakin was "between worlds" and "vulnerable". He was not at his best there, and his powers were hindered. Which is also why Anakin didn't use Dun Moch against Obi-Wan. He was only half-bringing himself to kill Obi-Wan. I'm sure you've read Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.



I have read Lockdown, and nowhere does Maul exhibit strength capable of breaking the bones of beings far more durable that capital ship interiors. If you disagree, post the feat in question.

More importantly, if we do take the RotS novel, then the force of Anakin's blows exhausted Dooku even moreso than Yoda's, a testament to Anakin's own Force-augmented strength. Need I remind you that Yoda stalemated Sidious in bladelocks, with Sidious being able to ward off the collective strength of Maul/Savage and overpower even an enraged Maul in a saberlock?



Repeating yourself ad nauseam doesn't make your point more credible. If anything, that's grasping at straws.

Show me where Maul has ever shown the power to send Dooku flying into a wall. Show me where Maul sends Ventress flying just through blade contact (in Revenge, she clashed blades with him just fine). Show me where Maul ever drives back Obi-Wan and Anakin together with the duo's attacks utterly failing against him (he stalemates Obi-Wan alone in Revival, and Obi-Wan gets hits on him in Revenge). Show me where Maul sends Obi-Wan and Anakin flying with TK.

Savage is never again depicted to be in the same league as his enraged self in Witches of the Mist, and not by a long shot either. So it doesn't matter where or not he's shown to be in the same league as Maul (they only make appearances together after Witches of the Mist). So your comparison with Anakin doesn't work. Anakin's performance was only poor against PIS!Savage, not regular Savage.



That only proves that Dooku lost, which is obvious. None of this contradicts the notion that Dooku held his own in actual combat. Did he get desperate? Did he tire? Did he lose? Yes. But he also held his own. And that's a fact; reiterated by more than one supplementary source. You're going to have to do better than make unsubstantiated claims if you want to discredit the showing.



What a convincing argument.



Indeed. However, I'm not looking for momentary advantages. I'm looking at entire fights.



That's not a showing of prolonged contention against tier 9's as with Dooku vs Yoda, who's also better than Mace. That's a showing of momentary advantage. The fight's incredibly short.

Nova is a meathead.

Originally posted by Unbowed
That doesn't make him a defensive fighter, dummy.

Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.

A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.

Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.


Except Dooku does fight defensively. Like a lot. It's an integral part of Makashi like Kurk has pointed out.

What's Dooku's knowledge of Ataru got to do with anything? Kenobi only ever employed it to trick him.

Anyway without the Count's mastery over footwork, positioning and leverage, or rather his talent as a fencer, no I don't think Maul could handle him in the way he did. Whether he is an expert on Ataru or not however is irrelevant to that question.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's Dooku's knowledge of Ataru got to do with anything? Kenobi only ever employed it to trick him.

Beni's completely right here. He ATTEMPTED to use his knowledge of Ataru to take advantages of Kenobi but as soon as he did that Obi Wan switched to Soresu. It's irrelevant.

Nova is a meathead, yeah.