Plo Koon vs. AOTC Obi Wan

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carthage
Force, sabers, all out

Legends versions

cs_zoltan
Kenobi sweeps. Stomping Ventress a few weeks after AotC as well as being more powerful than Anakin is plenty enough to beat Koon.

cs_zoltan
Well the novels are Legends so...

Rockydonovang
koon beat a superior version of ventress while injured(and thus not being able to utilize the form edge of djem so). There's also quickly gaining the upperhand vs koon and being considered a worthy test of his skills by tpm maul, an accolade mad emore impressive by maul being a cocky fighter.
Koon should be ventress level and as of aotc kenobi isn't there yet.

SunRazer
Koon didn't beat Ventress and normally fights one-handed anyway.

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by SunRazer
Koon didn't beat Ventress and normally fights one-handed anyway.

His broken arm would still influence his balance, mobility, ...

SunRazer
It might've been a hindrance in being dead weight, but the argument that his lightsaber form had to be changed or became unusable because of the loss of an arm is just wrong.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
Koon didn't beat Ventress and normally fights one-handed anyway.
1.Disarming ventress of her blades is a clear shown of superiority and is certainly more significant than landing a kick(though koon also force blasted her)
2. Based on? If you're using koon vs oppress, the only clashed blades once

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
It might've been a hindrance in being dead weight, but the argument that his lightsaber form had to be changed or became unusable because of the loss of an arm is just wrong.
I didn't say his form was unusable or he had to change form, i said he was hindered and that his ability to exploit his stylistic edge was hindered becaus elogically using two hands would give you more strength than using one.

SunRazer
1. He deprived her of only one blade, and after that Ventress put one hand behind her back and forced him against the railing.

2. Based on me watching him fight.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. He deprived her of only one blade, and after that Ventress put one hand behind her back and forced him against the railing.

2. Based on me watching him fight.
1. Which showcases superiority and is defintiely more signifcant than pressing someone in a blade lock(which koon broke out off i the next scan anyway).
2. Plo Koon has never dueled in a visual medium though, obviously he would approach blaster deflection and slashing things which can easily be slashe differently than an actual duel

SunRazer
He fights Ventress one other time equally, IIRC, and it was still with one hand even though he had both. But I don't remember it too well, so I won't press the point.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
He fights Ventress one other time equally, IIRC, and it was still with one hand even though he had both. But I don't remember it too well, so I won't press the point.
are you referring to the beggining of the comic? If not the only other fight I've seen was his fight vs Oppress. Anyhow given that ventress was pre prime at the time i hold koon and ventress as equals

Beniboybling
I remember when Kenobi stomped Ventress, ah wait never happened. sad

SunRazer
thumb up

DarthDuelist9
Originally posted by SunRazer
It might've been a hindrance in being dead weight, but the argument that his lightsaber form had to be changed or became unusable because of the loss of an arm is just wrong.

Oh agreed, it didn't affect his lightsaber style, only the physical stuff behind it.

Beniboybling
And confirmation on him > Anakin? Their duel against Dooku rather gives the opposite impression. mmm

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And confirmation on him > Anakin? Their duel against Dooku rather gives the opposite impression. mmm

An in character opinion of Ventress that's taken at face value (but when we're discussing about characters they don't like, IC opinions aren't proof of anything).

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I remember when Kenobi stomped Ventress, ah wait never happened. sad
Koon could definitely replicate this vs that version of ventress anyway

SunRazer
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And confirmation on him > Anakin? Their duel against Dooku rather gives the opposite impression. mmm

They're both level 7 for dueling. But Ventress claims that Obi-Wan is more powerful:

SunRazer
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
An in character opinion of Ventress that's taken at face value (but when we're discussing about characters they don't like, IC opinions aren't proof of anything).

It's hardly gospel. That said, given that the text states that "she knew" this, and had just faced Anakin earlier on, I'd say it's reliable.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's hardly gospel. That said, given that the text states that "she knew" this, and had just faced Anakin earlier on, I'd say it's reliable.

Nobody can convince me that Obi Wan can replicate the Dreadnought feat from OCW. And then, some ridiculous shit as of RotS, as they canonically grew significantly during the TCW.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's hardly gospel. That said, given that the text states that "she knew" this, and had just faced Anakin earlier on, I'd say it's reliable.
Its also more recent and is supported by kenobi and anakin stalemating tk wise in obsession when things got out of hand

SunRazer
@TenebrousWay - Sounds like you're the one with the confirmation bias, not these other people that you're accusing. Also, TCW takes place just weeks after AotC. The dreadnought feat happens months later.

And Anakin's more powerful than Obi-Wan as of RotS, obviously. Far more powerful.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
They're both level 7 for dueling. But Ventress claims that Obi-Wan is more powerful: Fair, though their duels against Dooku certainly suggest otherwise.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Nobody can convince me that Obi Wan can replicate the Dreadnought feat from OCW. And then, some ridiculous shit as of RotS, as they canonically grew significantly during the TCW.
As Obi Wan is anakin's superior even during anakin's early knighthood, kenobi obviously can replicate these showings. Not to mention his hsowing in wildspace less than a year post aotc is better than anakin's dreadnaught one. There's also kenobi outperforming anakin vs ventress in the tcw novelization significantly despite anakin's style edge, kenobi stalemating anakin in obsession(which is post tcw), and kenobi stalemating mustafar abakin who is logically miles above his padawan incarnation.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair, though their duels against Dooku certainly suggest otherwise.
I mean its a stretch logically but you could always try to say early tcw kenobi>early tcw anakin>aotc anakin>aotc kenobi

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by SunRazer
@TenebrousWay - Sounds like you're the one with the confirmation bias, not these other people that you're accusing. Also, TCW takes place just weeks after AotC. The dreadnought feat happens months later.

And Anakin's more powerful than Obi-Wan as of RotS, obviously. Far more powerful.

Since when it's confirmation bias to demand evidence that Obi Wan could replicate that feat, considering he never came close of doing so all the way to RotS?

The second point is irrelevant.

SunRazer
Saying that "nobody can convince me" is not asking for evidence. And the Wild Space feat is a pretty good one to compare. I don't remember the specifics though.

It was in reference to your remark about RotS, unless I misinterpreted it.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by SunRazer
Saying that "nobody can convince me" is not asking for evidence. And the Wild Space feat is a pretty good one to compare. I don't remember the specifics though.

It was in reference to your remark about RotS, unless I misinterpreted it.

I meant nobody could convince me with just a IC opinion of Ventress. smile

If you could give a brief description of the feat, I can remember which one it is.

SunRazer
The one where he cloaks and TK's Organa's ship simultaneously.

cs_zoltan
Beni being f-ucking oblivious and using retarded ABC logic is quite amusing.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I meant nobody could convince me with just a IC opinion of Ventress. smile

If you could give a brief description of the feat, I can remember which one it is.
Well there's kenobi stalemating superior versions of anakin tk wise+kenobi doing better than anakin in their actual fights vs ventress

The feat you're asking for had Kenobi, less than a year post aotc, barely breaking a sweat, simulatnaoesly cloaking, holding together and guiding a 40 m ship a part of the way from coruscant to wild space.

TenebrousWay
I know which one it is.

http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=0f58d7-1482008748.png

It's a very good feat but:

1- The ship was far smaller than an atmospheric dreadnought.
2- He held the ship on basically zero gravity.

Obi Wan just had to hold the ship together and control it's vibration. Anakin tilted a massive dreadnought on pure reflex.

Organa's ship should weigh 1,500 tons at most while an atmospheric dreadnought should be around 300,000-500,000 tons, under the influence of normal gravity. Kenobi's feat pales in comparison.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Beni being f-ucking oblivious and using retarded ABC logic is quite amusing. wow, no need to get upset just cause Kenobi is shit. sad

cs_zoltan
I'm not the one upset here, I'm just telling the truth.

Using Dooku to measure their power is retarded in it's own right since that's dueling, not Force. Besides that Kenobi used his secondary form, of which Dooku knew every weaknesses of, while Anakin on the other hand had a counter form to Makashi. Yeah that's f-ucking convincing evidence.

Also Kenobi stomped Ventress in the TCW movie. Get with the program...

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Kenobi sweeps. Stomping Ventress a few weeks after AotC as well as being more powerful than Anakin is plenty enough to beat Koon.

When did he stomp Ventress?

What do you mean "more powerful than Anakin"?

cs_zoltan
Nova already posted the quote saying Kenobi > Anakin in the TCW movie. And in the movie Kenobi stomped Ventress.

He was holding back against her until Anakin left the system. Both Kenobi and Ventress confirms this. He did that becuase if he beats Ventress quickly, she runs away as a f-ucking coward she is and she could go after Anakin. By playing with her she kept her attention by enraging her and when Anakin left he beat Ventress under 15 seconds.

If you want I can get you the quotes for this from the novel.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I'm not the one upset here, I'm just telling the truth.Sure thing darl.

Retarded is saying "that's dueling, not Force" as if they are two separate things. Hint: the Force is used in duelling. Shocker.

Not seeing any evidence Ataru was his secondary form at the time. Why use your weaker form against an opponent like Dooku?

On the other hand no, there is no evidence Anakin has mastered Djem So yet.

Stomped him in a duel that lasted several minutes, with neither opponent being outright defeated. Get with the program indeed, i.e. the English language. thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If you want I can get you the quotes for this from the novel. Please do, I'm specifically looking for the part where Kenobi stomps Ventress, must have been cut from the movie or something.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Retarded is saying "that's dueling, not Force" as if they are two separate things. Hint: the Force is used in duelling. Shocker.

And it involves skill and stylistic edges. You are basically saying "oh there's a quote that says Kenobi > Anakin in Force? Too bad it's contradicted by this feat involving the force, skill and various edges in combat."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not seeing any evidence Ataru was his secondary form at the time. Why use your weaker form against an opponent like Dooku?

On the other hand no, there is no evidence Anakin has mastered Djem So yet.

Yeah because he could really defeat Dooku using only Soresu...

Before you are knighted you are required to master a form other than Shii-Cho, considering a few weeks later Anakin was a knight he had to master Djem-So or be ****ing close to it.

But yeah it's really helping your case to presume someone who didn't even master Djem So can press a Top5 duelist of all time with Djem So...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Stomped him in a duel that lasted several minutes, with neither opponent being outright defeated. Get with the program indeed, i.e. the English language. thumb up

It's almost if that duel had circumstances. If almost if those circumstances were listed in the novel. It's almost as if being a native english speaker you can't distinguish their, they're, and there. So how about you don't patronize me and actually pick up the book laughing out loud

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Please do, I'm specifically looking for the part where Kenobi stomps Ventress, must have been cut from the movie or something.

Is it such a foreign thought to you that someone holds back significantly in duel and when goes all out stomps the opponent? But sure, give me a few mins.

cs_zoltan

Beniboybling
Take your own advice kek, in none of those passages you raised did Kenobi stomp Ventress. laughing out loud

Rockydonovang
Its nice to see how much above ventress kenobi is, but given that koon disarmed a stronger version of ventress while injured, was ablse to break right through her force defenses like kenobi did, and that the version of kenobi here who performed so well vs ventress is>aotc anakin. This doesn't put aotc kenobi above koon

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Take your own advice kek, in none of those passages you raised did Kenobi stomp Ventress. laughing out loud

Are you illiterate? Maybe read it again:

"Lay down your weapons."

He came back at her with his lightsaber raised, and they stood toe-to-toe, locking blades and struggling. She had to warn Dooku that Skywalker was coming. She needed to end this charade. She stepped back to swing again with both blades, but Kenobi caught the tip of one and sent it spinning from her hand.

"Surrender," he said.
--The Clone Wars

Disarming someone in 2 moves is a stomp in my book, idk about you.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And it involves skill and stylistic edges. You are basically saying "oh there's a quote that says Kenobi > Anakin in Force? Too bad it's contradicted by this feat involving the force, skill and various edges in combat."Funny I don't remember saying that, try not to let the red mist obscure your vision every time something negative is even insinuated about ol'Obi-Wan. smile

He could employ both yeah, seems more likely Ataru was the only form he had properly mastered at the time.

It's called Shien yeah, not the same.

You are right zoltan, it was wrong of me to criticise your language skills, what you actually did was simply lie. sad

So let's be clear, Kenobi did not stomp Ventress, not in TCW nor anywhere else. The idea that he could rather beggaring belief when he failed to do so on Christophsis despite having Anakin for backup.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Are you illiterate? Maybe read it again:

"Lay down your weapons."

He came back at her with his lightsaber raised, and they stood toe-to-toe, locking blades and struggling. She had to warn Dooku that Skywalker was coming. She needed to end this charade. She stepped back to swing again with both blades, but Kenobi caught the tip of one and sent it spinning from her hand.

"Surrender," he said.
--The Clone Wars

Disarming someone in 2 moves is a stomp in my book, idk about you. Cool, good to know Koon stomped Ventress as well then. With a broken arm.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Funny I don't remember saying that, try not to let the red mist obscure your vision every time something negative is even insinuated about ol'Obi-Wan. smile

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Originally posted by SunRazer
They're both level 7 for dueling. But Ventress claims that Obi-Wan is more powerful:

Fair, though their duels against Dooku certainly suggest otherwise.

mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He could employ both yeah, seems more likely Ataru was the only form he had properly mastered at the time.

He picked up Soresu after TPM, so nah.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's called Shien yeah, not the same.

Sure things roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You are right zoltan, it was wrong of me to criticise your language skills, what you actually did was simply lie. sad

Your illiteracy doesn't equate to me lying. Don't be so salty.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So let's be clear, Kenobi did not stomp Ventress, not in TCW nor anywhere else. The idea that he could rather beggaring belief when he failed to do so on Christophsis despite having Anakin for backup.

So far your whole arguments is just a salty refusal to acknowledge facts. You brought up so far exactly 0 evidence to back up your claim, and for my quotes your respone was to menstruate all over the place. Also your ABC logics, and lack of literacy to decipher context is as grandiose as ever.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cool, good to know Koon stomped Ventress as well then. With a broken arm.

http://i.imgur.com/QtFZ0PR.gif

Your failure to grasp simple concepts went from hilarious to pathetic.

Let me phrase it in a way that your kindergarten level intelligence can comprehend (let me know if I use to many big words, I can talk simpler):

Holding back the whole fight as a distraction then going all out and disarming someone in 2 moves and then the opponent running away in defeat = stomp.

Disarming the opponent after an all out fight, yet still being pushed back afterwards = not stomp.

If you still don't get it ask Legend to explain it to you. I'm sure even he can understand this much.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://i.imgur.com/QtFZ0PR.gif

Your failure to grasp simple concepts went from hilarious to pathetic.

Let me phrase it in a way that your kindergarten level intelligence can comprehend (let me know if I use to many big words, I can talk simpler):

Holding back the whole fight as a distraction then going all out and disarming someone in 2 moves and then the opponent running away in defeat = stomp.

Disarming the opponent after an all out fight, yet still being pushed back afterwards = not stomp.

If you still don't get it ask Legend to explain it to you. I'm sure even he can understand this much. Right, so what you're saying is that the act of disarming an opponent, in and of itself, does not constitute a stomp? Or rather that disarming an opponent in combat, doesn't necessarily mean you can and/or are stomping them?

Oh dear, I wonder what proof you have Kenobi did so to Ventress then. sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
mmmWhat you think I said: "oh there's a quote that says Kenobi > Anakin in Force? Too bad it's contradicted by this feat involving the force, skill and various edges in combat."

What I actually said: "Fair, though their duels against Dooku certainly suggest otherwise."

Must we make this a game of spot the difference?

That doesn't mean he mastered it, in fact we know he didn't since Dooku only realises he had come RotS. Which as I recall, worked pretty well against the Count all by itself didn't it?

Very sure you'll find. Shien and Djem So are not the same thing. thumb up

Sorry, I didn't realise stomp meant "disarm in a duel but not really actually even beat."

Was this intended to be ironic, or are you that lacking in self-awareness? The only who opted to bring up zero evidence to instead "menstruate all over the place" is you darling. Whereas I pointed out, quite correctly, that no stomp occurred, relieving a person of their lightsaber in and of itself is not a stomp, and if Kenobi was actually capable of stomping Ventress she wouldn't have lasted five seconds on Christophsis, against Anakin and Kenobi combined, and yet she held her own for several minutes, without being beaten.

Naw, Ventress getting disarmed only proves she got sloppy and left an opening. Whereas in the movie itself she gets caught in a bladelock, and he overpowers her, which proves he's stronger than her. Neither prove Kenobi can or did stomp her. Frankly you've already admitted this in addressing Koon doing the same thing, so may as well concede.

Rockydonovang
By "pushing back" you mean pressing him in a single bladelock(which he broke free off)?
And lets ignore that koon was injured
Lets ignore that koon fought a better version of ventress
Lets ignore that it wasn't aotc kenobi who beat ventress

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, so what your saying is that the act of disarming an opponent, in and of itself, does not constitute a stomp? Or rather that disarming an opponent in combat, doesn't necessarily mean you can and/or are stomping then?

That's right. I'm surprised you actually comprehended anything I said. Good job.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh dear, I wonder what proof you have Kenobi did so to Ventress then. sad

Idk, maybe that it took him 2 moves total? That might be it.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Idk, maybe that it took him 2 moves total? That might be it. Oh damn, how many moves is disarming a person supposed to take? Let's see you connect with their blade, that's one, then disarm them, that's two, and then, and then...

cs_zoltan
Right, and killing someone takes 1 move. So Sidious actually didn't stomp the B-Team, it was a grueling fight.

Are you done being a f-ucking imbecile?

Beniboybling
Nope just trying to make you engage your brain. laughing out loud

You say he disarmed her in two moves as if the means something, and yet have failed to explain why. Ventress was far from fresh out of the gate nor in any reasonably better shape than against Koon. While Koon was in fact in a worse condition than Kenobi (who had been holding back reserves) when he disarmed Ventress. There is no relevant difference between the two showings other than those that put Koon at a disadvantage and yet you're attempting to argue as if they are worlds apart.

cs_zoltan
If you can't see the difference between disarming someone after a prolonged fight and disarming someone straight away with 2 moves from start to finish then idk what to say to you.

Keep being an idiot, it makes no difference to me.

Beniboybling
Concession accepted kek, let's do this again sometime. smile

cs_zoltan
Sure, giving Ls to you on Kenobi is an old hobby of mine smile

Beniboybling
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/5/4477/thumb_620x2000/4.15_Obi-Wan_fakes_his_death.jpg

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