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This should be interesting.

Nihilus.

Sidious blitzes him

um i'm pretty sure sidious is confirmed as the most powerful sith so......


unless we are talking about sidious when he was an apprentice of plagueis because i don't think he was at that point of time.

Originally posted by darthbane77
This should be interesting.

Not really.

Do we have any precise details regarding the ease and manner in which Sidious can summon and control Force Storms?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Not really. There's a reason for this, and if what I hope is gonna happen, actually happens, you'll all realize what the purpose of this thread is. It's not interesting yet, it will be.

is it drain

nihilus drains

Originally posted by darthbane77
There's a reason for this, and if what I hope is gonna happen, actually happens, you'll all realize what the purpose of this thread is. It's not interesting yet, it will be. I look forward to what new and exciting routes this discussion will take with bated breath.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I look forward to what new and exciting routes this discussion will take with bated breath. That's the point. I need two specific people to start arguing, if they do, it will be a spectacle.

PM their names and I will help draw them in.

"Nihilus, I choose you!"

I'm one of the two who darthbane77 is wanting to take up the battle axe lol.

Tempest where you at

He no longer deals with mortals.

Palpatine thrashes him.

Sidious

Originally posted by Rebel95
Tempest where you at

right hurr

Just got back from taking the woman to see the new adaptation of Beauty & The Beast, which didn't completely suck.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He no longer deals with mortals.

Also, this.

The Emperor is factually more powerful than Nihilus and in all my years, I've never seen a successful argument made that Nihilus could drain a prepared Force user who is significantly more powerful and knowledgeable than he.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
right hurr

Just got back from taking the woman to see the new adaptation of Beauty & The Beast, which didn't completely suck.



Also, this.

The Emperor is factually more powerful than Nihilus and in all my years, I've never seen a successful argument made that Nihilus could drain a prepared Force user who is significantly more powerful and knowledgeable than he. challenge accepted give me 3 days I'm going into every lore about nihius and drain I can find, god speed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Also, this.

The Emperor is factually more powerful than Nihilus and in all my years, I've never seen a successful argument made that Nihilus could drain a prepared Force user who is significantly more powerful and knowledgeable than he.

Well that assumes a great deal of things. First of all that Nihilus' aura isn't going to be functioning in the battle, and second of all that the Emperor has any kind of natural resistance to his drain type.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Well that assumes a great deal of things. First of all that Nihilus' aura isn't going to be functioning in the battle, and second of all that the Emperor has any kind of natural resistance to his drain type.

Not at all. We can assume Nihilus's "aura" is functioning just fine. It's just that there's no proof that he can successfully employ his Force drain against a greater Force user. Especially one who's on his guard.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. We can assume Nihilus's "aura" is functioning just fine. It's just that there's no proof that he can successfully employ his Force drain against a greater Force user. Especially one who's on his guard.

There's multiple aspects to Nihilus' aura, including

1.) Scaling power amp (the greater the foe, the greater the amp)
2.) Force Sundering attribute (Wound in the Force area, no channeling)

To start, Nihilus is coming into this heavily amped, and Sidious is going to have some difficulty centering himself and deploying Force powers.

You're wanting to establish an argument that something isn't likely, with zero evidence that it is. Why is that?

Off topic sidious is considered a dark side nexus himself right? Wouldn't that also amp nihilus or am I leaning on the autistic side of he force?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
There's multiple aspects to Nihilus' aura, including

1.) Scaling power amp (the greater the foe, the greater the amp)
2.) Force Sundering attribute (Wound in the Force area, no channeling)

To start, Nihilus is coming into this heavily amped, and Sidious is going to have some difficulty centering himself and deploying Force powers.

You're wanting to establish an argument that something isn't likely, with zero evidence that it is. Why is that?

Not at all. I'm saying you have no proof of Nihilus's ability to successfully employ his drain against a prepared adversary who happens to be (a) more powerful and (b) much more knowledgeable than he.

He took the Jedi mooks on Katarr by surprise, staged his coup against Traya with Sion at his side, and only ever drained the Exile after immobilizing her and her team.

That you can't offer proof of such betrays the weakness of your argument and Nihilus's position in general. The Emperor is simply the superior Force user with respect to sheer might and mastery. Nihilus loses.

Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

FASTER
STRONGER

Sidious casually.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

FASTER
STRONGER wwwweeeeelllllllllllll that's not entirely true doesn't nihilus power grow with every being he consumes in theory couldn't he just consume like 7 planets then force drop kick sidious out the window?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not at all. I'm saying you have no proof of Nihilus's ability to successfully employ his drain against a prepared adversary who happens to be (a) more powerful and (b) much more knowledgeable than he.

...That you can't offer proof of such betrays the weakness of your argument and Nihilus's position in general.

There's never an argument ever made within the content itself that alludes to the idea that it's possible, so why do I need to present an argument in response to your assertion that it is? Your conceptualization of his ability goes against the material the content comes from and you demand proof that you're wrong.

It is akin to someone saying "this poison kills any biological creature it comes into contact with" and someone argues "well it's never come into contact with crabs at the bottom of the Mariana trench, so unless you can prove it works on them too, you don't have a case". Yet the burden of proof is on the dissenting voice, especially when core material establishes it to be true.



Are you saying they need to start resisting before they're attacked, in order to be able to defend against it, rather than being able to defend once they are coming under its effects?



And sapped her powers himself, instantly depleting the combat ready Traya's Force reserves with the wave of a hand?



Which he did effortlessly (the stasis). That scene was written different ways, and each was to show how FAR more powerful he was than Meetra and company realized (even with all the hype authored in by the writers). If he had just decapitated the stasis suspended team, we'd have a different story. But he had to go and try to drain his polar opposite.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Even if he's not a Force Wound (since the general consensus is that he isn't), Sidious is just plain better.

FASTER
STRONGER

Are you saying a biological entity, augmented by the Force is going to be Faster than a Spirit entity augmented by the Force? Especially one that can use Force Surge far longer than his target?

On what basis Geistalt?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
There's never an argument ever made within the content itself that alludes to the idea that it's possible, so why do I need to present an argument in response to your assertion that it is? Your conceptualization of his ability goes against the material the content comes from and you demand proof that you're wrong.

It is akin to someone saying "this poison kills any biological creature it comes into contact with" and someone argues "well it's never come into contact with crabs at the bottom of the Mariana trench, so unless you can prove it works on them too, you don't have a case". Yet the burden of proof is on the dissenting voice, especially when core material establishes it to be true.

By "content itself" you're referring to dialogue between fallible characters prone to exaggerate and wax poetic.

My argument is that the Emperor is more powerful and knowledgeable than Nihilus. This is something we both know you can't dispute. The foundation for your house of cards is tenuous - Kreia's words - from which you infer that Nihilus's technique would be effective against Force users more powerful than he (even though there exists absolutely zero evidence in the lore to support that).

So really, it's akin to you saying that because you can bench press 200lbs, you must therefore be capable of bench pressing 2000.

Sidious is leagues beyond from anything Nihilus has encountered and no one has offered any evidence he's up to the challenge.



I'm saying one is more likely to withstand an attack when one is not taken by surprise.



With her focus divided between him and Sion, which was my point.



I don't dispute that Nihilus was more powerful than the Exile, Visas, and a middle-aged Mandalorian. But so too is the Emperor.

Which brings us back to square one: The Emperor is factually stronger and more masterful than Nihilus. In the absence of compelling evidence that Nihilus would be able to neutralize these advantages, logic dictates that he loses.

Edit: Sorry, used to SpaceBattles coding these days.

Temp, how effective do you think Nihilus' drain would be against a potentially weaker but far more masterful foe like Dooku (Dark Reaper aside)?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Temp, how effective do you think Nihilus' drain would be against a potentially weaker but far more masterful foe like Dooku (Dark Reaper aside)?

No clue, bud.

Assuming Nihilus applies to power in the way everybody else thinks he's powerful. Because there's a massive distinction between Nihilus' power and actual power in the Force.

Nihilus' Drain may have been different in origin to Apoc Krayt's Drain (although they might in fact be the same), and that would not have allowed Krayt to solo the more powerful Abeloth.

We know how K2 Drain works against stronger enemies - it's like the Triumvirate Assassins vs other Jedi, etc.

Sorry, ****ed it up. It's supposed to be:

Nihilus' Drain may have been different in origin to Apoc Krayt's Drain (although they might in fact be the same), but its effects are pretty similar and that would not have allowed Krayt to solo the more powerful Abeloth.

Emphasis on the part that was missing in the above post.

Nihilus' drain flat out severs the opponent from the Force though. Not really similar at all. It isn't a steady drain.

It's the exact same power, as Traya explicitly says. Nihilus is just so much stronger than his opponents than he severs their connections to the Force entirely, whereas the Assassins can't. But against a stronger opponent, Nihilus obviously can't sever their Force connection.

EDIT: Were you referring to Krayt's Drain? If so, that was affecting Luke and Abeloth's Force essence, IIRC, which is basically damaging their connection to the Force.

Yes, I'm saying that Nihilus and Krayts drain aren't similar at all. Krayt was slowly draining Abeloth while Nihilus severs an opponent immediately.

Krayt was also using it in a position where they were manifestations of themselves in a funky shadow realm. Their real bodies connections wouldn't be available to be severed from the Force anyway.

Yeah, they would. If you drain their very Force Essence, then their connection to the Force, even physical, would falter for it.

Besides, it's not like the fact that they were in the Shadow Realm weakened or somehow got rid of one's protection over their own Force Essence.

Nihilus can severe the Force connection of fodder immediately, sure, but can he do so against someone like Sidious? Doubtful. The only reason Krayt couldn't severe Abeloth's or Luke's connection to the Force is that they were both vastly ahead of him. Assuming he was placed against someone of relative impotency compared to his powers, such as Shaak Ti or Plo Koon, they'd get their Force connection severed swiftly.

@Neph -

1. Except Nihilus' Drain, being the same as the Assassins', does just that. The thing is that Nihilus is so much more powerful than his victims that can strip them of their connections to the Force instantly or near-instantly.

Again, KotOR II gives us every reason to believe that it's down to the disparity in power rather than the technique.

2. They were in a realm where physical damage equated to damage to their Force essences, IIRC. Which basically means Krayt was hurting Luke and Abeloth's Force connections.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Neph -

1. Except Nihilus' Drain, being the same as the Assassins', does just that. The thing is that Nihilus is so much more powerful than his victims that can strip them of their connections to the Force instantly or near-instantly.

Again, KotOR II gives us every reason to believe that it's down to the disparity in power rather than the technique.

2. They were in a realm where physical damage equated to damage to their Force essences, IIRC. Which basically means Krayt was hurting Luke and Abeloth's Force connections.

1. The technique can be used in a variety of manners, true, but Nihilus' "drain" is a far different application than the Assassin. Who don't slowly drain btw, they just instantly grow relative to their opponents by all extents and purposes. You're assigning significance to Nihilus being more powerful than his opponents that isn't there. The technique has no defense, power is explicitly exempt from the techniques effectiveness. In fact, that the assassins can use it on those more powerful than themselves indicates it has no baring at all. You're once again making things up that you merely wish were the case, based on nothing.

I also find to hard to imagine Nihilus being more powerful than a hundred Jedi put together, personally.

2. Which makes it impossible to know what its effects would be in the real world. If it was damaging their connections (and I think you're just assuming that), it would be because of the location instead of the technique itself.

Krayt never demonstrated the drain in any real world situation afterwards. Which given how immensely powerful a drain like Nihilus' is, seems implausible if Krayt could do something similar.

1. Correction: Kreia claims that there's no defense. She isn't omniscient and her word doesn't prohibit the discovery of a defense by an infinitely more powerful and knowledgeable Force user than herself thousands of years into the future.

Regardless, I accept the notion that Nihilus' Drain could affect Sidious as Krayt's did Abeloth; I just don't think it'll end the fight or anything close. No defense does not mean it's an instakill, lmfao. Even without a defense, Sidious can resist it. Defense and resistance are different things. Hence, it could work, but slowly and without any game-changing consequence at first. That leaves Sidious with ample opportunity to strike the Lord of Hunger down.

It wasn't a hundred Jedi, just the majority of "less than a hundred Jedi". Of which we have only three of note. Not impossible to believe, especially since they were taken by surprise.

2. That's an appeal from incredulity. Whatever seems implausible to you is not evidence. The fact that Apocalype was published afters Legacy might be why.

1. Revan already existed tho?

You're welcome to think that if you want, I was just informing you that the description of how the attack actually works runs contrary to that. You have nothing to support your conclusion that it would slowly and insignificantly impact him and you're contradicting the text. You don't slowly sever someone from the force.

Still far too many.

2. Good point. However there is still that fact that the circumstances make it impossible to compare the techniques.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Revan already existed tho?

What does that have to do with anything?



Then Nihilus would simply fail to sever Palpatine's connection ala Odan-Urr vs Exar Kun.

I'm making no contradictions whatsoever. Nihilus' power has yet to be tested against a more powerful being than himself.



An amped Nihilus with prep vs well under fifty incomparable Jedi who were taken by surprise. Not hard to imagine.

It'd probably look something like Krayt's Drain against Luke.

Just stronger. Although resisting it will be Sidious' top priority.

Are you guys sure that you haven't simply named various abilities as a drain, and then compared them on the basis of that naming and not on the basis of how the abilities actually work?

I mean, is Nihilus' ability ever even referred to as a drain by a canon source? You even have an ability (gameplay mechanics) named Force Drain in that very game, which is obviously not the same thing.

Well, he uses the Force Drain animation...

And he does feed on his victims. What else would you call it? Lightning?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Are you guys sure that you haven't simply named various abilities as a drain, and then compared them on the basis of that naming and not on the basis of how the abilities actually work?

I mean, is Nihilus' ability ever even referred to as a drain by a canon source? You even have an ability (gameplay mechanics) named Force Drain in that very game, which is obviously not the same thing.

Force Drain is an entire spectrum of powers, and in my blog on it I detail the difference between K2's Drain and the conventional Drain Life. That being said, as long as Drain involves affecting somebody's connection to the Force, my point stands.

And KotORCG identifies it as Drain, yes.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Well, he uses the Force Drain animation...

Oh does he?



I imagine a drain to work in a manner where it directly empties the target of a quantifiable level of some kind of substance, such as some kind of life essence.

I would need the quotes but I don't believe that's how Nihilus' ability is described. It's more like it serves as a sort of off switch to their connection to the Force or something.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Force Drain is an entire spectrum of powers, and in my blog on it I detail the difference between K2's Drain and the conventional Drain Life.

Link?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And KotORCG identifies it as Drain, yes.

Any chance you have a scan of that?

Guess he used Sever Force, then. :P

Basically, the impression I got was that he isn't emptying the cup of water but in fact making the cup intangible.

It's called sarcasm, damnit.

Well, Temp and the others seem to be doing just fine, so I don't think I'll be sticking around. Sorry Syn and DB77, nothing personal

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Link?


http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/darth-nihilus-146644/force-misconceptions-force-drain-kotor-ii-1828641/



What's wrong with just having quotes?

Here's three:

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5753677-drainforce.png

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5753679-lifedrain2.png

https://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5753678-lifedrain.png

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, Temp and the others seem to be doing just fine, so I don't think I'll be sticking around. Sorry Syn and DB77, nothing personal Damn, lol

Quotes would have also been fine; I wasn't expressing distrust, I was just interested in seeing the scans themselves.

Isn't it possible that the KotORCG conflicts with information from the game?

Right; that's what LucasArts does.

Going around, publishing inaccurate lore.

There's no conflict until you prove that the game establishes something different. Otherwise your proposition is completely baseless and you're basically that guy who blatantly refuses to accept evidence and keeps looking for non-existent ways to disprove it.

The same game depicts it with a Drain Life animation and in general the characteristics align perfectly with Drain-type powers. It's just that KotOR II prefers synonyms such as "feed" and "consume".

Before Nihilus even takes a step toward Palpatine, he turns to dust.

I'm not saying there is necessarily a conflict, just putting that possibility out there. Either way it's clear from the scans that you've provided that the KotORCG doesn't really do justice to exploring the intricacies of the technique, and it's also possible that it's being very liberal with the word "drain".

I think the wiser course of action would be looking solely at the game in this instance and seeing how Nihilus' ability functionally compares to other abilities we might think of as drains.

Apparently, Force Sever looks like a glowing, orange beam.

Dat's rite. Traya just harmlessly severed the remainder of the Jedi Council via Wall of Light.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
I'm not saying there is necessarily a conflict, just putting that possibility out there. Either way it's clear from the scans that you've provided that the KotORCG doesn't really do justice to exploring the intricacies of the technique, and it's also possible that it's being very liberal with the word "drain".

I think the wiser course of action would be looking solely at the game in this instance and seeing how Nihilus' ability functionally compares to other abilities we might think of as drains.

And as I've told you, Drain in the game fits the characteristics of Draining powers. We have the KotoRCG confirming as much. There's just no way around it. This is the equivalent of arguing that the Earth is flat in the modern day.

Regardless of the power's nature, it won't work on Palpatine — or at least, it won't be anything game-changing at first.

Originally posted by SunRazer
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/darth-nihilus-146644/force-misconceptions-force-drain-kotor-ii-1828641/

Having read through this one thing I can't completely make out is whether the techniques described in the following quotes are one and the same:

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

Well, Drain has always comprised a spectrum of powers or at least a spectrum of applications.

But yeah, that's the same. They both involve severing Force connections, it's just the second quote explains that the caster also feeds upon the death that is caused.

Well here's how I read how the technique works in the first quote:

1. A bond is formed between Force-users.
2. One of the Force-users uses that bond to drain the other Force-user completely.
*And I guess, once drained completely, their bond would effectively be severed as there is no longer a person (or functioning Force-user) to be bonded with.

I'm finding it hard to see how you would interpret the same sort of thing from the second quote. It seems to be saying diffrent forms of connections are directly severed in some way, and that the death caused is then fed upon.

Bear in mind I haven't played the game in years and don't really know the exact context of all of these quotes.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which brings us back to square one: The Emperor is factually stronger and more masterful than Nihilus. In the absence of compelling evidence that Nihilus would be able to neutralize these advantages, logic dictates that he loses.

By that logic, Valkorion also takes a majority against Nihilus.

Absolutely serious. He could probably fry him to death like Marr (just with greater difficulty). And, of course, he still isn't as masterful as Palps.

Probably falls back into the "Valk > Plagueis > Nihilus" debates at some point.

Originally posted by Geistalt
By that logic, Valkorion also takes a majority against Nihilus.

Yep.

Originally posted by Geistalt
By that logic, Valkorion also takes a majority against Nihilus.
Obviously, yeah.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Well here's how I read how the technique works in the first quote:

1. A bond is formed between Force-users.
2. One of the Force-users uses that bond to drain the other Force-user completely.
*And I guess, once drained completely, their bond would effectively be severed as there is no longer a person (or functioning Force-user) to be bonded with.

I'm finding it hard to see how you would interpret the same sort of thing from the second quote. It seems to be saying diffrent forms of connections are directly severed in some way, and that the death caused is then fed upon.

Bear in mind I haven't played the game in years and don't really know the exact context of all of these quotes.

Force Bonds are basically Force connections, just with people instead of the Force itself.

Well I'm still not convinced that it is the same technique, but let's say it is for a second; why are we so convinced that it wouldn't be so effective against Sidious?

Simple. It revolves around severing one from the Force, which by logic and precedent (Odan-Urr vs Exar Kun again) fails against a more powerful foe who is on their guard.

And, of course, the lack of evidence on Nihilus' part to suggest that it would work against a more powerful foe that Nihilus doesn't have the luxury of ambushing or incapacitating.

But there is no precedent as far as the technique of manipulating a Force Bond to achieve that effect is concerned as far as I'm aware (plus didn't Odan-Urr attempt something completely different on Exar Kun anyway?); a regular drain more closely resembles a regular Force attack that would most likely be defended directly against in a conventional manner, whereas the Force Bond drain seems to be more of a disguised attack.

Of course there's evidence that suggests it would work on Sidious; just how suggestive it is is up for debate.

And not everyone would agree that Sidious is more powerful.

It's been stated over and over again that he's "the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived," and "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."

Pretty sure the intent there is that he's > than any prior Sith or former Sith.

Intents that maybe conflict with other intents, and aren't reflected in canon as a whole?

Okay...

When is it suggested that Sidious is weaker than anyone else that had been Sith?

Possibly when we have someone doing far greater stuff than he?

Not that I'm really claiming this. I really need to replay KOTOR2 at some point, and it's possible that Nihilus isn't really powerful in the conventional sense at all, but has some kind of weird ability that allows him to feed off of others and become more powerful that way, but then might slowly lose that power if he doesn't continue to feed. But again my memory of the details is a little off.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
But there is no precedent as far as the technique of manipulating a Force Bond to achieve that effect is concerned as far as I'm aware (plus didn't Odan-Urr attempt something completely different on Exar Kun anyway?); a regular drain more closely resembles a regular Force attack that would most likely be defended directly against in a conventional manner, whereas the Force Bond drain seems to be more of a disguised attack.

Of course there's evidence that suggests it would work on Sidious; just how suggestive it is is up for debate.

And not everyone would agree that Sidious is more powerful.

Sidious' superiority is factual, as is made clear in the numerous sources (plenty of which come after KotOR II) stating that he is the most powerful Sith Lord to date. There is no argument. If someone fails to agree with that, then they're simply proving that have no regard for canonical authority and thus are a waste of time to debate.

Odan-Urr attempted to Sever Kun from the Force; it's the same principle here but you're needlessly complicating things. As I said, a Force Bond is just a Force connection to another person instead of the Force. In no way is Drain a "disguised attack", just one that's incredibly difficult to control. I'm not sure what evidence led you to draw that conclusion.

What evidence suggests that it would work on Sidious, or at least to the game-changing extent that some of the others were proposing?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sidious' superiority is factual, as is made clear in the numerous sources (plenty of which come after KotOR II) stating that he is the most powerful Sith Lord to date. There is no argument. If someone fails to agree with that, then they're simply proving that have no regard for canonical authority and thus are a waste of time to debate.

Odan-Urr attempted to Sever Kun from the Force; it's the same principle here but you're needlessly complicating things. As I said, a Force Bond is just a Force connection to another person instead of the Force. In no way is Drain a "disguised attack", just one that's incredibly difficult to control. I'm not sure what evidence led you to draw that conclusion.

What evidence suggests that it would work on Sidious, or at least to the game-changing extent that some of the others were proposing?

So you're just blatantly lying now? It's a totally different attack that uses a completely different method than the one Odan-Urr attempted on Kun. It's not remotely the same principle. Or at least you've established no such connection. Simply because they both involved severing one from the Force proves nothing. If the method of doing so is different, it would necessitate a different response in order to repel. And nothing indicates you can resist something through a Force bond.

Legend is absolutely right that the drain isn't a conventional attack that can be conventionally resisted. Absolutely no-one was able to resist the Sith Assassin's using the technique on them in order to grow parallel to their relative level of power. Even though that would indicate them being less powerful than the Exile and her companions. Therefore, the Assassins stand as proof that the technique can be implemented in spite of power differences.

The Exile wasn't even aware of using it and you're saying it isn't a disguised attack? Are you high or just ignorant?

1. Once again you've shown you can't read. Nowhere did I say they were the same attack; I distinguished between them earlier on. I said it was the same principle, and they both involve severing someone from the Force. It stands to reason that you can't sever someone more powerful than yourself, just like any Force power fails against a guarded, more powerful opponent. The case with Odan-Urr and Kun is merely a precedent for my claim, whereas yours is woefully lacking in both historical precedence and evidence. Temp's point about the suspect nature of Nihilus' Drain being used against opponents only when they're incapacitated or with prep also stands.

It's too bad that Nihilus doesn't actually have a Force Bond with Sidious then, huh?

2. Nowhere did I say the power wouldn't affect Sidious. I'm asking for evidence that it'll have the game-changing effects that some of you peeps are suggesting it would have. Indeed, I'm more than fine with Nihilus getting some negligible amp like the Assassins did.

3. Are you retarded? I said the power was difficult to control, which fits with the Exile using it instinctively. It's an instinctive power until you learn how to control it; that makes it hard to control. In what universe does that make it disguised? That would mean that Nihilus and the Exile appear to be using different powers when they actually use Drain, which, of course, happens nowhere.

1. It doesn't stand to reason, it stands to your assumption. Absolutely nothing indicates that to be the case and your attempt to claim the Odan-Urr example as a precedent is woefully inadequate for the reasons that I stated. They are not the same attack. They do not work the same way. And I don't know what you're talking about with me lacking precedence, since my whole point is that the technique is unique and works in a manner unlike that of conventional techniques. Which is supported by it, you know, actually being unique and working in a manner outside of anything else.

Please tell me you aren't that stupid. The whole point of the technique is to instantly form a bond and then exploit it. Kreia didn't have one with the Masters and look how that turned out. The Exile was feeding off of random bad guys the whole game.

2. How generous. Too bad Nihilus' technique is a bit more advanced than the Assassins. As seen when it was demonstrated, its essentially an insta-kill. Since Sidious has no method of resistance, theres no reason to think he won't just be quickly severed and either die from the shock or be crushed in his powerless state.

3. You denied that it was a disguised attack. It absolutely is, since nobody was aware it was being used on them (except in the lethal version obvs) and the Exile wasn't aware she was using it. That isn't being "difficult to use" lol. The only time anyone remarks on the technique without knowledge of it is when Atton finds himself literally compelled to fight for the Exile against his will.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1. It doesn't stand to reason, it stands to your assumption. Absolutely nothing indicates that to be the case and your attempt to claim the Odan-Urr example as a precedent is woefully inadequate for the reasons that I stated. They are not the same attack. They do not work the same way. And I don't know what you're talking about with me lacking precedence, since my whole point is that the technique is unique and works in a manner unlike that of conventional techniques. Which is supported by it, you know, actually being unique and working in a manner outside of anything else.

They don't work in the same way in that one involves blocking somebody else from feeling the Force and the other revolves around outright damaging the Force connection, but that's much the same as saying telekinesis and Force Lightning don't work the same way. They don't, but if you're stronger in the Force than the caster, you can block the attacks all the same. In this case, you can resist the attacks all the same.



Right, because Kreia's far more powerful than the Masters. This isn't hard to grasp.

Also, nowhere is it said that you instantly form a Bond to them and then exploit, lol. You Drain their connections to the Force. Draining through a Force Bond is a separate application of the power.

But since you want to bring up Kreia, Bond and Drain, I'll remind you that amongst KotOR II's cut content/script is Kreia using Drain on the Exile through their Bond, and that was not an instakill indeed. So your case falls flat once more.



It's an instakill because Nihilus is so far above his enemies; the same goes for Traya vs the Masters. There's no evidence that Nihilus would instakill Sidious with it. Your claim has no legs to stand on, especially since Nihilus' use of it has been historically suspect to begin with, as Temp pointed out. He's always prepped/ambushed someone/incapacitated them before using Drain. Without any of those advantages and against someone stronger in the Force, we have reason to doubt Nihilus' capacity to instantly kill Sidious, and your case isn't strong enough to reverse that.



You can't even quote me properly. I said it's difficult to control, not difficult to use. And indeed it is difficult to control, which is why the power starts off being purely instinctive and Traya had to teach Nihilus to harness it properly.

The rest of it doesn't prove it's disguised at all, just that people don't understand the nature of the attack. Again, being disguised would mean the power manifested itself in some alternate, misleading way, which it doesn't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They don't work in the same way in that one involves blocking somebody else from feeling the Force and the other revolves around outright damaging the Force connection, but that's much the same as saying telekinesis and Force Lightning don't work the same way. They don't, but if you're stronger in the Force than the caster, you can block the attacks all the same. In this case, you can resist the attacks all the same.

Incorrect, they don't work the same way because they mechanics of the techniques are wildly different. You can't block a Force Choke with a lightsaber. It doesn't work that way. Your example is apt in that one technique is a wall of light that physically strikes your body and the other isn't visible, isn't felt and is utilized in a manner that makes the defense used for the previous attack completely impotent.

And once again, its specifically stated that theres no defense against it and there are examples of it being used on people more powerful. The fact that you're stating that it can be resisted as if you know this for a fact when you're actually just presuming is actually quite disgusting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, because Kreia's far more powerful than the Masters. This isn't hard to grasp.

Also, nowhere is it said that you instantly form a Bond to them and then exploit, lol. You Drain their connections to the Force. Draining through a Force Bond is a separate application of the power.

But since you want to bring up Kreia, Bond and Drain, I'll remind you that amongst KotOR II's cut content/script is Kreia using Drain on the Exile through their Bond, and that was not an instakill indeed. So your case falls flat once more.

What? Wtf does that have to do with anything? We're talking about how the technique works here, why are you bringing power into it? Kreia has no force bond with the Masters prior to walking into the room yet she can still use the technique on them. Nihilus wasn't even on the planet when he was wiping out Katarr, yet he still drained everything on the planet through the Force Bond technique. Being powerful doesn't have anything to do with Force Bonds. The Exile did it when literally powerless, lol.

Uh, all varients of the technique works via the Force Bonds. Theres no other method of using it:

"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives."

The Exile is the only one who can survive the attack and is a master of the technique herself, no shit.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's an instakill because Nihilus is so far above his enemies; the same goes for Traya vs the Masters. There's no evidence that Nihilus would instakill Sidious with it. Your claim has no legs to stand on, especially since Nihilus' use of it has been historically suspect to begin with, as Temp pointed out. He's always prepped/ambushed someone/incapacitated them before using Drain. Without any of those advantages and against someone stronger in the Force, we have reason to doubt Nihilus' capacity to instantly kill Sidious, and your case isn't strong enough to reverse that.

It's an instakill because its an attack that instantly severs someone from the Force, you dolt. You're once again needlessly making connections that don't exist. Kindly show me where it's stated thats the reason.

If by "historically suspect" you mean "a bunch of bullshit" then yes, I'm aware of the crap Temp has tried pulling in the past. There's no indication of prep being required and the technique is so simple to use it can be done instinctively and in an instant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You can't even quote me properly. I said it's difficult to control, not difficult to use. And indeed it is difficult to control, which is why the power starts off being purely instinctive and Traya had to teach Nihilus to harness it properly.

The rest of it doesn't prove it's disguised at all, just that people don't understand the nature of the attack. Again, being disguised would mean the power manifested itself in some alternate, misleading way, which it doesn't.

Not understanding the attack and not even feeling it are two different things. This is becoming close to merely arguing semantics. The upshot of the discussion is that when I say that it's disguised what I mean is that the technique is hidden outside of its effects. Nobody's aware that the Assassins are using it on them, none of the party members feels the Exile gaining influence over their personalities, no one you meet feels the Exile forming a bond with them. The technique cannot be blocked because it works in such an indirect and unconventional manner, such that nobody can even recognize the method through which it is utilised or know that it is being used at all.

And that is why it is so deadly.

To be fair Sion was always irrelevant enough to not "split focus". He was fodder for someone like Traya (in fact she has ragdolling Sion without raising a hand).

Just to play devil's advocate, though, it is possible to argue that a disparity in power may not be the reason for Drain's success at all:



Then again, the quote itself doesn't actually rule out that superiority in Force power is required to "draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them" in the first place.

And in either case, Nihilus' historical record of only draining with potential prep and against defenseless opponents and his failure to fully sever Traya remain uncounterable black marks on his reputation.

Originally posted by QuakeBlood
To be fair Sion was always irrelevant enough to not "split focus". He was fodder for someone like Traya (in fact she has ragdolling Sion without raising a hand).

That's after she grows more powerful.

No doubt she was more powerful than him even then, but her attention was clearly divided because you see her turning to Sion when Sion ignites his blade, and later see her gaze fluctuating between Sion and Nihilus.

Seeing as my esteemed padawan has done quite a good job of arguing a lot of these points in my place I will keep this brief.



Where is the evidence that he joined forces with Sion to divide her attention? Sion and Nihilus were equal collaborators in their mission to betray her, so it was only appropriate for them both to be there. It seems that Sion would have wanted to be there in any event; it looked pretty personal on his part.

And when does he attempt to drain her? Hard to tell from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxcJugMe_Y.



These are hardly damning limitations.



Is it not possible that stunning them all instantly was simply a faster and more reliable way of rendering any threat they could pose ineffective as opposed to draining all three immediately? That doesn't mean that he wouldn't be able to drain a single opponent as or nearly as efficiently.

But to reiterate the earlier point, it's silly to say that a regular drain could set a precedent for the Force Bond variety. When a Force-user is bonded to another, they effectively already hold eachother's strength in their grasp; all that remains to be done is the final work of taking it. There are additional variables to consider, such as who is the more dominant beneficiary of that bond.



None of what you've said here has been established. Bear in mind I don't have a horse in this race, I'm simply a seeker of truth, and I would have no problem with Sidious being more powerful than Nihilus. But there are a number of complicated issues at play here, and it's far too sophisticated a topic for you to simplify it and attempt to silence discussion. I mean, I'm not convinced you can even make sense of what it means for Sidious to be more powerful than Nihilus in the first place; how do you imagine that their respective power can be measured and compared?

Regarding whether Nihilus wanted Sion there or not; that's irrelevant to the point at hand. The point is that Sion was there nevertheless and that Traya's attention was indeed divided between the two.

While you seem to be trying to play devil's advocate, is there a point trying to be made here or am I lost? I'm asking for proof that Nihilus could indeed end the game against Sidious with Drain. And for all the claims that Drain has no defense, Nihilus has still only used it against the defenseless. I'd like justifications for why Nihilus always attempts Drain only on those who cannot defend themselves.

Otherwise the Emperor is more powerful and is a superior combatant. I'm not seeing where he loses.

Nihilus' power isn't really power though, both the Exile and Traya differentiate the power of the likes of Revan and Nihilus. They both consider Revan to be more powerful than Nihilus when we know that in actuality, Nihilus' feats completely outshine any Revan incarnation.

Why is this? Because I think the difference is rather clear, Nihilus isn't powerful in the conventional sense. His power comes purely from Hunger, it's the technique that the Ancient Sith could have used to become serious planetary threats, but they didn't because that path is nihilistic in its nature. There is no real power there, you're just becoming this Dark Side aberration.

It isn't real power, it is a temporary thing and Kreia explains this thoroughly, she is echoed by sourcebooks too.

Nihilus isn't actually as powerful as the Ancient Sith or Revan, not conventionally, but his hunger is. Far more so, infact.

You can throw out 'most powerful' quotes for both Sidious and Valkorion, but in actuality, any feats comparison with Nihilus is far from definitive at all in this regard.

So much to read through... sheesh. Sorry I haven't responded to those who addressed me (sorta rude of me), I've been busy with family and other forums.

Lemme check out the multiple pages that were added since I was gone lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus' power isn't really power though, both the Exile and Traya differentiate the power of the likes of Revan and Nihilus. They both consider Revan to be more powerful than Nihilus when we know that in actuality, Nihilus' feats completely outshine any Revan incarnation.

Why is this? Because I think the difference is rather clear, Nihilus isn't powerful in the conventional sense. His power comes purely from Hunger, it's the technique that the Ancient Sith could have used to become serious planetary threats, but they didn't because that path is nihilistic in its nature. There is no real power there, you're just becoming this Dark Side aberration.

It isn't real power, it is a temporary thing and Kreia explains this thoroughly, she is echoed by sourcebooks too.

Nihilus isn't actually as powerful as the Ancient Sith or Revan, not conventionally, but his hunger is. Far more so, infact.

You can throw out 'most powerful' quotes for both Sidious and Valkorion, but in actuality, any feats comparison with Nihilus is far from definitive at all in this regard.
That is a good argument.

However, Valkorion pulled-off a Darth Nihilus on Ziost. So there's that.

Character perspectives on Nihilus are irrelevant here when he's has been described as a "ultra-powerful" dark sider and the like by objective sources.

That's really low balling Kreia. These qualities show her to be an expert on the subject:

a.) She learned the dynamics of the ability from a technical aspect. She was able to instruct Nihilus how to take his drain from a passive aura to a world consuming ability by learning of it from the texts in the Trayus academy.
-So she understands it both as a student, and as an instructor, and has knowledge that even the PC doesn't have concerning the dynamics of the ability.

b.) She was a victim of the ability which shows she understands the effects from the empirical victim perspective.
-This allows her to understand what she felt, how it felt, and what did or didn't seem to work when she attempted to resist it (as shown in the cut scene where she braces herself).

c.) She was the agressor with the ability that used it on others.
-This allows her to understand what the ability is capable of from the view of one that deploys the skill.

She has all three components to expertise on the subject. So please stop trying to sell her as an old woman weaving old wives tales.



More overall knowledgeable, sure. I don't disagree there. What you appear to be missing in this equation (and I may be wrong about your knowledge of Nihilus) is that Nihilus is primarily using a different power source which is an anti-Force mechanism. This is why there is no defense against it. This Hunger Power is fueled by the Force, so attempting to deploy a Force Based power like a resistance of some sort is akin to putting up a wall of liquid oxygen and trying to defend against a blowtorch. In fact, I've only read a page over from this and it seems like more people are missing this than should be.

Character perspectives that are echoed by official sources.

I love how your brigade is scrambling to prop up the accolades because you know your baseless claims wouldn't last in a feats comparison.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus' power isn't really power though, both the Exile and Traya differentiate the power of the likes of Revan and Nihilus. They both consider Revan to be more powerful than Nihilus when we know that in actuality, Nihilus' feats completely outshine any Revan incarnation.

Why is this? Because I think the difference is rather clear, Nihilus isn't powerful in the conventional sense. His power comes purely from Hunger, it's the technique that the Ancient Sith could have used to become serious planetary threats, but they didn't because that path is nihilistic in its nature. There is no real power there, you're just becoming this Dark Side aberration.

It isn't real power, it is a temporary thing and Kreia explains this thoroughly, she is echoed by sourcebooks too.

Nihilus isn't actually as powerful as the Ancient Sith or Revan, not conventionally, but his hunger is. Far more so, infact.

You can throw out 'most powerful' quotes for both Sidious and Valkorion, but in actuality, any feats comparison with Nihilus is far from definitive at all in this regard.

Actually, no. Traya and the Jedi in KotOR II state that Nihilus is the most powerful threat they've faced.

And Nihilus is deemed powerful in a conventional sense by plenty of sources. No idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Character perspectives that are echoed by official sources.

I love how your brigade is scrambling to prop up the accolades because you know your baseless claims wouldn't last in a feats comparison. What like Sidious > Nihilus?

Maybe provide some of those official sources rather than wasting time with the bafoonish side comments.

Kreia literally states that it isn't real power when you express disbelief that anybody could have such power.

Of course they'll refer to him as powerful in a generic sense but in all actuality? his power is NOT conventional at all, his power source is his hunger not the Force.

I need to provide sources about Nihilus' hunger that are widely available in his RT and other places?

I love it when the brigade has to play ignorant when you know full well what I'm referring to.

Stop pretending that the entire point of Nihilus' character isn't that he's a Wound in the Force that aggressively feeds off of Force energy that isn't his own to sustain his utter lack of it.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I need to provide sources about Nihilus' hunger that are widely available in his RT and other places?

I love it when the brigade has to play ignorant when you know full well what I'm referring to.

Stop pretending that the entire point of Nihilus' character isn't that he's a Wound in the Force that aggressively feeds off of Force energy that isn't his own to sustain his utter lack of it.

Too bad sources objectively refer to characters being more powerful than Wounds in the Force like Traya being more powerful than the Exile. If you want to argue that Nihilus can beat a more powerful character, then by all means make the argument, but don't try to exclude him from quotes in which he's obviously included, lol.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I need to provide sources about Nihilus' hunger that are widely available in his RT and other places?

I love it when the brigade has to play ignorant when you know full well what I'm referring to.

Stop pretending that the entire point of Nihilus' character isn't that he's a Wound in the Force that aggressively feeds off of Force energy that isn't his own to sustain his utter lack of it. Or in other words they don't exist.

He continues to get more powerful because he keeps feeding on the survivors of Malachor V before Kreia finds him and teaches him to use his Hunger to ever greater heights. This power he feeds on continues to fuel him until he's capable of devouring planets and ripping fleets out of gravity wells. But the more he does it the quicker the Hunger macerates and destroys him, so he transfers his essence and his hunger to his armor.

He becomes the literal embodiment of his Hunger, if his power was conventional then why does starving him weaken him? So much so that Meetra can kill him? It's temporary power drained from actual Force energy.

His power isn't personal power, it's his Hunger draining power from actual sources of Force energy which he can use to have massive effects on the universe around him.

This is the most basic aspect of his one-dimensional character

So his power is conventional power, just temporary...

In what way does that change him falling under the jurisdiction of Palpatine's quotes?

He hasn't declined in power at all since joining the Trayus Academy, up until the Battle of Telos IV.

That's true AncientPower.

Nihilus has two forms of power, Force Power, and Hunger Power. He metabolizes Force Energy into Hunger Power which has FAR greater yields than normal Force Energy.



It is dissimilar in regard to what drives it. Krayt uses Force Energy to fuel his drain, Nihilus uses a different type of energy, Hunger Power.



True Nephthys.

The fact that Nihilus' drain is a focused form of his own passive aura drain, and the Assassins use this form to kill much stronger Force users should be evidence that Nihilus' ability would naturally affect much stronger Force users as well. The fact of the matter is that it works because it is anti-Force, and consumes it. Not because of some made up power disparity dynamic.



No defense BECAUSE it is fueled by Force Energy. It's kinda silly to say a wall of black powder is going to defend against a blowtorch. Lol.



SunRazer it doesn't work the same. Odan-Urr wasn't using an ability against Exar Kun that flat out used Force Energy as fuel.



No. In fact the Sith Triumvirate Assassins aren't listed in the campaign guide as having a drain of any sort, and we know they have the passive aura form.

The only reason "Drain Force (drain's Force Energy) appears in the guide is because he uses it against Traya during the cut scene. The form of drain he uses on you in combat is Dark Healing / Dark Healing Field which drains life and siphons it to him. Sion has this ability as well as Traya but neither of them have normal drain forms. It is a non-classified drain type.



All Life Siphoning effects have the orange drain animation. It keeps in flavor with the different life drain effect in other sources (in example Force Powers for Star Wars pg 46, Drain Life animation). You will note that when he drains Traya's Force Energy, it is an invisible effect just like the in game mechanic (no orange pasta noodles lol)



Which is pretty specific in the guides. I'm not sure... you're on the up and up with drains.



Untrue. The CG only describes it as a draining effect in the character bios, but when it comes to the ability itself, it is NOT classified as a skill. Drain Force is NOT Nihilus' unique drain.



That's an energy effect that shows life is being transferred. It appears during his special drain (In which he siphons life energy) as well as Dark Healing, Death Field, etc. Its not Force Sever.



Though Nihilus and Traya carried the title, neither of them were really Sith. Traya flat out says she isn't and it isn't what she believes (the Sith religion/code).

And Nihilus uses primarily Hunger Power, not Force Power.

Gotta stop here for a bit. Baby is needing some cuddle time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So his power is conventional power, just temporary...

No, it isn't. It is Hunger Power, metabolized Force Energy.

Are you familiar with how hypermatter reactors work? They take hypermatter and create enormous amounts of energy by destroying the matter (through various means). This allows for a near unlimited power source as hypermatter can be obtained easily closer to the Galactic Empire days.

The Force is also a similar power source which when used as fuel, can create tremendous amounts of energy. As we saw with Nihilus, the little energy he metabolized on Malachor V allowed him to raise a multi-million ton vessel from a gravity well that was nearly impossible to escape from (due to the gravity storms).

Both Traya and Nihilus has been acknowledged as Sith by objective sources, regardless of their personal beliefs, just in the same way they have been regarded as powerful, regardless of where that power comes from.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So his power is conventional power, just temporary...

In what way does that change him falling under the jurisdiction of Palpatine's quotes?

He hasn't declined in power at all since joining the Trayus Academy, up until the Battle of Telos IV.

It's not actually his power though, it is power that sustains him for a limited time before fading. The catch is that he needs more and more to satiate his ever-growing Hunger, hence going from survivors on Malachor V to entire planets.

The Wound only gets larger and larger, with more and more drastic effects, each time he devours mass Force energy to satiate this he achieves greater and greater degrees of strength.

It is the basic difference between him and Vitiate, Vitiate's is a lasting power growth that doesn't rely on further feeding to sustain him. His is self sustaining. Nihilus on the other hand is a snowball effect.

His feats are capable due to whatever Force energy he has reserved from previous consumption but when he attempts to siphon the Exile, that decreases his remaining reservoir even further and reduces him to a beatable state.

Conventional Force power is personal self-sustaining power that grows naturally or through artificial growths such as a ritual. You need flesh and blood to sustain such power, but when you lack that, even the likes of Sidious, by his own admission, are extremely limited by such a state. Nihilus doesn't need flesh and blood to sustain his power because he is the embodiment of a Wound in the Force that lasts on feeding upon external power sources.

The Exile is different because her Wound is actually healing, her connection to the Force replenishing. She becomes a natural, conventional Force user again. Nihilus' polar opposite.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's not actually his power though, it is power that sustains him for a limited time before fading. The catch is that he needs more and more to satiate his ever-growing Hunger, hence going from survivors on Malachor V to entire planets.

The Wound only gets larger and larger, with more and more drastic effects, each time he devours mass Force energy to satiate this he achieves greater and greater degrees of strength.

It is the basic difference between him and Vitiate, Vitiate's is a lasting power growth that doesn't rely on further feeding to sustain him. His is self sustaining. Nihilus on the other hand is a snowball effect.

His feats are capable due to whatever Force energy he has reserved from previous consumption but when he attempts to siphon the Exile, that decreases his remaining reservoir even further and reduces him to a beatable state.


He metabolizes Force Energy into Hunger Power, at an alarming rate no less.

Imagine it this way. Say you have a camp fire, and you have a tube to pump gas through. If you have enough pressure in the gas being pumped out, the fire won't be able to climb up the stream and get you. But the more you pump into the fire, the more pressure you need to push the growing flames back. This requires more and more gas. When you run out, you're going to be consumed.

In the same way Nihilus would absorb Force Energy (and Life Energy) which would fan the flames of his Hunger Power. But he would require more and more to keep it at bey in order for it to not consume him (a Force Aberration that is pure Force Energy). During his duel with Meetra, the Hunger turned on him and started consuming HIM because his failed attempt. So his own energy was being metabolized into Hunger Power.

This is why Nihilus could never be truly immortal as he was, because at some point he wouldn't have enough to feed the fire. It's kinda like the Force's insurance policy lol.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Both Traya and Nihilus has been acknowledged as Sith by objective sources, regardless of their personal beliefs, just in the same way they have been regarded as powerful, regardless of where that power comes from.

I know, I'm just pointing out the in game content and the philosophical reality of the situation.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
No, it isn't. It is Hunger Power, metabolized Force Energy.

Are you familiar with how hypermatter reactors work? They take hypermatter and create enormous amounts of energy by destroying the matter (through various means). This allows for a near unlimited power source as hypermatter can be obtained easily closer to the Galactic Empire days.

The Force is also a similar power source which when used as fuel, can create tremendous amounts of energy. As we saw with Nihilus, the little energy he metabolized on Malachor V allowed him to raise a multi-million ton vessel from a gravity well that was nearly impossible to escape from (due to the gravity storms).

Hey, I'm just following AncientPower's description.



Sever Force does use Force energy as fuel, like any Force power. The difference in effect is the only thing that's relevant here, and it's just that one blocks another's connection to the Force whilst the other devours it.



That's down to game mechanics again. Nihilus' Drain is explicitly said to just be an advanced version of the Assassins, but stems from the same teachings.



That's because his Drain is off-panel. He used the same technique on the Exile as he would've on other Jedi, and it manifested as Drain Life. I'm pretty sure that was just the game trying to depict it as such for lack of better animations.



No idea what you're talking about here.



Nihilus doesn't have any unique drain. It's the same as the assassins. And there's no name for it, I just call it Drain. However, as you said, the CG does mention him draining people, so I'd say it's a valid term to describe it.



Those are their personal claims, which are irrelevant to the fact that objective sources depict them as Sith Lords, and hence they fall under the jurisdiction of objective sources claiming that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

And indeed, deviating from Sith ideology doesn't exclude them from being Sith. Traya says Nihilus does not care for Sith teachings but still refers to him as a Lord of the Sith (and herself, for that matter).



I'm assuming that this is a primarily fan-made denomination for the power, like Drain, rather than an official name.

Regardless, if we're trying to going to run off technicalities, half of Palpatine's quotes make no specific mention of Force power and simply say that he's the most powerful Force user or expression of the dark side or user of Sith power. Nihilus falls under the jurisdiction of all three.

...continuing...



Well, the Force Ability "Force of Will" defends against direct TK, but it doesn't against Force Lightning, Force Storms, Pyrokinesis, or objects thrown by TK among other things.

Force of Will amps a defender's ability to defend against focused and direct internal attacks on the person, yet doesn't defend against other things. So just because skills are "force powers" doesn't mean they all have equal avenues of defense.

In regard to Nihilus' drain, it can't be blocked because the ability is fueled by Hunger Power which is FED by FORCE ENERGY. Trying to use the Force to defend against his drain is like coating yourself with gasoline to defend against a fireball.



I agree with you here, there's no Force Bonding before the drain but Nihilus *can* form Force Bonds at will as exampled by Visas. Nihilus is supposed to be the Polar Opposite of Meetra so a lot of what he does is a shadow of her. The severing and forming Force Bonds are two of those things.



Where is this? I don't remember her using the Nihilus drain on Meetra. I think I recall her using Drain Force (which drains Force Energy) on Meetra but not the Nihilus drain.



Temp is also under the impression that the ability is Force Power based, meaning it is governed by the laws of Force Power/Energy when that is in fact false. His Hunger Power is anti-force.

The idea that Sidious can "out-Force" Nihilus' attack is what is lacking legs, mainly because its an assertion in error. Nihilus's drain isn't Force Based, its anti-Force based. Its not like fighting an infection with white blood cells, its like fighting full blown AIDS with white blood cells.




Still chewing on that bone? In all of the source texts we can find, the goal was exile, the plan was to drain her Force energy, and they succeeded. You really need to drop that because it is entirely false and misleading.




I don't remember the Assassins deploying direct drain on her, and if you're wanting to call the orange life siphoning power "drain" its actually Dark Healing. Nihilus uses it on her during their duel after his primary drain was nullified.

This is flat out proof that Nihilus' unique drain is NOT the same as other Life Siphoning abilities.



Negative, the CG says she was reconnected to the Force through her Nexus bond with Meetra:

What she finds is a ruined Jedi Order, and an enigmatic Jedi Master-Kreia, who also claims to have been stripped of her Force powers. Kreia's union with the Jedi Exile creates a vergence in the Force that reconnects them to the energy field surrounding all living things.
-SWKOTORCG, pg. 140



No, his drain has TK effects and in that clip she was just sapped of her Force Energy. What you see with the artistic wiggle of the Saber is what is left of her Force Reserves after being severed (its meant to display her powerlessness). He is not aiming to kill her there.




A survivor he purposely left alive.

"I asked him why he had spared me. And though he said nothing, I suddenly knew the answer. It was because he wanted my people at last to see"
-Visas Marr, Unseen Unheard



Which really establishes nothing. In the other versions of how this goes down, he doesn't immediate drain them first either. He lifts the whole party up in a Force Choke, he throws Visas around, he roars, etc. The intent of the writers was not to have him instant-drain right off the bat. There's dialogue to be had.



They're standing up ready to defend. I don't know why you're saying they're incapacitated during the attack.

(sorry if you've responded since this, still dealing with an energetic baby lol)

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Nihilus's drain isn't Force Based, its anti-Force based. Its not like fighting an infection with white blood cells, its like fighting full blown AIDS with white blood cells. Doesn't mean Palps can't slaughter him with a lightsaber.

Sever Force in regard to the normal Jedi ability, creates a wall of light. That's obviously not what's being done here. There's other abilities on the Dark Side that are "Sever Force" type, like in the NJO materials, and I think Vitiate as well. But those aren't what Nihilus does.

That hunger feeds on their reserves at such a rate that it destroys the connections as you know. This is not normal force energy, in fact the programming notes differentiate it by calling it "Vampiric Energy":

"vampiric energy, and then suddenly reels back, collapsing on the ground.]"
-KOTOR 2, dialog.tlk file.

This is because it is Hunger Power that is being used to deploy the ability, not normal Force Power.



Down to game mechanics that never show them using the direct channeled form against Meetra or anyone else. We understand the Aura effect, but Meetra isn't effected by Nihilus' direct attack form, not even his Aura.



Drain Force is invisible. Force Drain has the orange animation. All life siphoning abilities have this animation, unless you have evidence that there's a form of life siphoning that doesn't in this media?



You're mixing drains and failing to differentiate between them.



The drain is fueled by Hunger Power, and creates voids in the Force when deployed. Both he and the Assassins use this drain type that Kreia speaks about. I refer to it being "unique" because it is not like the other abilities that are purely Force Energy driven.



As I clarified, just noting the in game philosophical workings. She's not a Sith, and does not believe what they believe, but she carries the title nonetheless.



Just kinda confused as to how you can write an entire article about his drain and not understand the Hunger Power that drives it. As we know, the Force can be used for different purposes:



So Force Energy can be used in various forms, and the way Nihilus and the Sith Assassins use it is to consume it and metabolize it into an energy source. Nihilus uses this "Hunger based energy" (vampiric energy) to perform various feats, and really it is integral to who he is as you will see:



As noted in the Kreia quote, he consumes the Force. In the quote above, Force Energy fuels his hunger. Is the Hunger a Power Source?



His power is great, and it comes from Hunger. Life dies and ceases when it is given to his hunger (metabolized).



It is a tangible power that can and is used to perform feats of power. As I showed in the programming notes, the energy of this drain is different than Force Energy. The idea of Vampirism is to consume, which is associated with hunger.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Doesn't mean Palps can't slaughter him with a lightsaber.

Nihilus is shown shielding his entire vessel from dozens of Turbolaser shots (5+ per second to be exact). I doubt Sidious' light saber is going to be a threat to him when this is applied to just his person, with no ship to hold together, and no crew to mentally dominate.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
...continuing...

Well, the Force Ability "Force of Will" defends against direct TK, but it doesn't against Force Lightning, Force Storms, Pyrokinesis, or objects thrown by TK among other things.

Force of Will amps a defender's ability to defend against focused and direct internal attacks on the person, yet doesn't defend against other things. So just because skills are "force powers" doesn't mean they all have equal avenues of defense.

In regard to Nihilus' drain, it can't be blocked because the ability is fueled by Hunger Power which is FED by FORCE ENERGY. Trying to use the Force to defend against his drain is like coating yourself with gasoline to defend against a fireball.

Nowhere did I say it can be blocked. That doesn't mean it'll kill instantly or something to that effect, though.



The in-game script defines it as Drain Force, but the game animation is the same as the one she uses to kill the Masters.



Well, no, that's not the assertion to begin with. There's two separate assertions; that Sidious can bring to bear enough power to defeat Nihilus and kill him, and that Nihilus' Drain won't serve to end the fight against Sidious for the reasons outlined already.

Nobody said anything about using the Force to defeat Nihilus' Drain.



Well, no, because I showed you the quotes in my blog where Sion claims that they wanted to kill her and was surprised that she survived. All you did was continue to repeat yourself in denial of those. I addressed the quote from KotORCG about conspiring to drain her powers.



Dark Healing and the like are all solely game mechanic terms and not canon, unless I'm mistaken.



That's blatantly wrong because she says at the end of the game that nobody bar the Exile has truly been severed from the Force (and survived, at any rate). She's only had the Force stripped from her; she hasn't had the actual ties severed. We see her using the Force prior to encountering the Exile and TCSWE also states that she sensed the Exile from across the galaxy to discern her location.



The lightsaber wiggling is her attempting to call it to her hand and failing because she's lost her powers. Also, is there a basis for his Drain having TK effects? That might explain the destruction of the buildings in Unseen, Unheard.



Fair enough. Unless that refers to him finding her on Katarr after the fact and then choosing to keep her alive instead of killing her, but it's not that important either way.



Well, it's obvious that he's far more powerful than them, but either way, this is simply another instance in a list of scenarios where Nihilus does attacks the defenseless with Drain.



I said in the script, which mentions her Choking and Crushing the Jedi Masters, which would render them helpless. In the game, they just stand there, but the game depiction is filled with bugs and she still has "prep time" so to speak.



Right, but the Drain Force she uses on the Exile in the DS version is the orange spaghetti attack. Unless you think this is another programming error, but the bugs tend to be those of omission, not altered mechanics.



The KotORCG suggests that the Exile's immunity was specific to Nihilus alone. Kreia also suggests that the Assassins' techniques work on the Exile.



In either case, Palpatine's quotes apply to the both of them.

I think the problem here is that KotOR II is producing an unprecedented concept which is leading to differing interpretations. The thing is that the hunger is usually referred to separately from the Force, but you're making the mistake of assuming that the hunger is entirely absent of the Force. That's wrong. Just because the attack results in the consumption of Force energy doesn't mean that the attack doesn't originate from the Force itself. Just because the Force fuels it doesn't mean it's independent of the Force either. Sometimes "vampiric" and "hunger" are just used to describe the nature of the attack and don't actually exclude it from the Force altogether. Your analogies about fire and gasoline don't work because you can't use something like fire or gasoline to adequately represent the Force. I have to go now, so I don't have time to explain it properly (what I said might come off as absolute gibberish) but the point is that his hunger and the Force are not mutually exclusive.

She mentions that the technique is "touched by the dark side" and that "it is something of the dark side":





And, of course, the attack which has no defense (the one he used on Traya) is of the Force:



I'm not sure if I said this in one of my previous posts, but it's supposed to be more ironic than something devoid of the Force altogether. Regardless, this is a technique and attack very much derived of and from within the Force; it simply results in the devouring of Force/life energy as well.

Before I respond, do you have this clip?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Hunger Power
wtf lmfao

Another imaginary term for Nihilus, I assume.

There's millions of these fan theories that have Nihilus being some completely deviant entity who's probably closer to Waru than a Sith Lord.

It must be a shame when they find out he's just a powerful dark-side Force-user with some unique tricks and treats.

I mean, a really powerful Dark Side Force user, but a Force user nonetheless.

Originally posted by MythLord
Another imaginary term for Nihilus, I assume.

There's millions of these fan theories that have Nihilus being some completely deviant entity who's probably closer to Waru than a Sith Lord.

I suppose you didn't make it to the end of my post then?

Here's the summary lol.



So Force Energy can be used in various forms, and the way Nihilus and the Sith Assassins use it is to consume it and metabolize it into an energy source. Nihilus uses this "Hunger based energy" (vampiric energy) to perform various feats, and really it is integral to who he is as you will see:



As noted in the Kreia quote, he consumes the Force. In the quote above, Force Energy fuels his hunger. Is the Hunger a Power Source?



His power is great, and it comes from Hunger. Life dies and ceases when it is given to his hunger (metabolized).



So in summary:

1.) His Power as stated, comes from his Hunger.
2.) His Hunger is fueled by the Force.
3.) His Hunger is a tangible power that can be used, as we see him using its power to displace his spirit into his gear.

It is a power, and it is hunger. I call it Hunger Power. Do you have a better term for it?

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
It is a power, and it is hunger. I call it Hunger Power. Do you have a better term for it?
The Force?

Darth Nihilus is much like a black hole - a (Wound in the Force) that failed to heal and transformed into an instrument of hunger as a consequence. End-result was this constant urge to consume any living being with connection to the Force to satiate it (i.e.hunger) in order to prevent his own demise. However, Darth Nihilus was only delaying the inevitable end to his existence. His hunger grew to the extent that it began to erode his corporeal existence and identity in spite of the efforts to satiate it, forcing him to transfer his consciousness into his mask and robes in order to preserve it.

So yes, I don't think it is wise to perceive Darth Nihilus as a conventional Force-user because his powers are not his own but borrowed from others via consuming them.

Yeah, "hunger" and "vampiric" are used as synonymous adjectives to describe the nature of his power. He's a dark side Force user, not someone from outside the Force, lol. And despite being a Wound in the Force, his powers stem from the Force all the same, not from something outside of it.

And yes, I do have the clip, as should anyone who's played KotOR II.

Your case is especially weak because there's absolutely no source that even makes mention of this purported "hunger power", despite the groundbreaking nature of the power if that was the case. This is just a fan theory that's been going around the internet for some time; Kreia confirms that the techniques are within the Force and dark-sided in nature. That's why all those Ancient Sith knew the power too. These are all specifically stated to be Sith teachings. And beings without his "hunger" use identical forms of Drain.

And the Force feeding someone isn't a new concept to begin with. In no way does that make his power or his hunger mutually exclusive from the Force.

Yeah, it's clear that Nihilus is a dark sider. Just for good measure:

















And also:



Anyone's who played KotOR II knows about the in-game obsession with echoes in/through the Force. So indeed, Nihilus' hunger is derived from the Froce.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
I suppose you didn't make it to the end of my post then?

Here's the summary lol.


So Force Energy can be used in various forms, and the way Nihilus and the Sith Assassins use it is to consume it and metabolize it into an energy source. Nihilus uses this "Hunger based energy" (vampiric energy) to perform various feats, and really it is integral to who he is as you will see:


As noted in the Kreia quote, he consumes the Force. In the quote above, Force Energy fuels his hunger. Is the Hunger a Power Source?


His power is great, and it comes from Hunger. Life dies and ceases when it is given to his hunger (metabolized).


So in summary:

1.) His Power as stated, comes from his Hunger.
2.) His Hunger is fueled by the Force.
3.) His Hunger is a tangible power that can be used, as we see him using its power to displace his spirit into his gear.

It is a power, and it is hunger. I call it Hunger Power. Do you have a better term for it?

Yeah, and that's all just his Force powers. It's derived from the Force, it's simply related to his hunger.

I was merely pointing out that "power" and one type of "defense" does not always mean you're going to have the same universal defense for everything. Different effects, different resistances, different levels of lethality.



It is debated that by virtue of Sidious being so powerful, he can resist Nihilus' drain as he would a Force Attack. Since that is the only power he will have to defend against it, I assume you track along the same argument. Is that incorrect?



You argued a clip taken out of context, against multiple sources that show Nihilus drained her Force Energy, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd like you to establish when that cut clip was to take place, and what were the parameters for it that it is dependent upon.



Dark Healing: Heal wounds by drawing life energy from another creature, and adding it to yourself.
Star Wars Core Rulebook pg. 223

Dark Healing Field: (AoE Version, resistance = half damage)
SWKOTORCG pg. 40:



You're mixing the two really. Its never stated Kreia is the same as Meetra, and while their severing may be different, it is still the same effect. Kreia's ties were severed, destroyed. Meetra's weren't, but her severing was more severe. She has the Malachor V echo, while as Kreia does not.



The connection occurs pre-Peragus when she finds Meetra on the Harbinger.



In the cut/modified content Kreia reveals she did not want to kill Meetra which is what caused the rebellion, so she had already sensed her:



Its not like you go by the TCSWE when it conflicts in game storyline anyways.



In the Sion vs. Nihilus clip, he rag dolls Nihilus with his drain, and in Unseen, Unheard as we know he used his technique, and that's it. But it caused wind storms, fast planetary clouds, buildings exploding and turned to rubble, etc.



"He spared the Miraluka, and that may have been the last shred of feeling that exists within him."
-Kreia



I couldn't find it. Shoot me a reference please.

Are you talking about prep time when she sits down and the player continues on to the masters?



Ah! No, that's Dark Healing (which she has). Star Wars KOTORCG pg 158/159. Definitely a life siphoning attack.



Yeah the immunity due to being a polar opposite. Though I don't remember Kreia suggesting that their drain type would work on her. She said their weakness towards her is apparent due to the fact that when she was disconnected to the Force, they couldn't locate her, but they could then. That's true because they sense Force Energy like blood:

"That is why they are drawn to Jedi, why it is easy for them to find where they gather - because it is like the smell of blood to them. And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them. "
-Kotor 2

So while she DOES have something for them to track now, it's debatable if their abilities will work on her. I suspect the polar opposites thing has to do with how Nihilus and Meetra function. He's like a shadow of her and tends to have opposite effects with his power.



I don't think he's purely using one form of power rather than the other. He still has Force Energy (which is why the Hunger cannibalizes him too, even as a Spirit). But his power as stated, comes from his hunger.



Yes, that's true and really there always needs to be a pathway to an ability, especially something that is stated to be "the greatest of the Sith teachings". Again though, as clearly stated, he derives his power from his Hunger, which is fueled by the Force. Technically his power IS empowered by the Force, but only through using the Dark Side to metabolize Force Energy into Hunger Power.

We can easily note, the wound state is a natural state (or unnatural lol). Kreia had to teach him to weaponize it, which is truly a Dark Side technique. To channel energy to perform the technique. Though instead of Force Energy like we see with Dark Healing and such, the energy used is different. Hunger Power.

@MythLord -

His hunger is more or less the condition he suffers from as a result of having his identity subsumed by Force Drain. All of his power still comes from the Force.

@Miko - I'll respond tomorrow, probably.

Although I do want to clear one thing — Dark Healing is just a game mechanic term and never established in canon. As I said, though, the power is defined in the script as a Drain Life:

Yup, a being of pure hunger, and pure dark side power. Which is why his Hunger begins to metabolize him when he doesn't eat. He is made of Dark Side Energy and his Hunger is fueled by Force Energy.



Dark Side Aberration, check.



Nice hypothesis indeed, very dark and grim like the Force Vampire Chris described him to be. Lol. I'm not sure even if that's the fact, how that disqualifies him from still being a being made of pure dark side energy while using a metabolized form of energy fueled by the Force?



He's a Dark Side Aberration that takes residence in the mask.... so why wouldn't it have Dark Side energy imbued in it? Before he stepped into that mask he already had multiple planets under his belt. I imagine that using his Hunger's power allowed him to take much of it with him when his spirit went into it.



Yeah... he's still got Dark Side power, it's not all metabolized (which is why he's not instantly consumed). You'll notice that after he eats there's a period of satiation and really that's the bulk of the Force Power he consumes which fills the hunger and is metabolized, but the hunger returns afterwards even stronger. That doesn't mean he's empty as he has enough in his reserves to fend off the detrimental effects of his hunger for quite a while. It was a great period of time before Katarr and Telos.



Same as the above references.



That actually has zero to do with his state before hand. Chris stated Nihilus is bound to the galaxy by two things, his Mask, and his Hunger. When Meetra defeated Nihilus his spirit and his mask survived, so we can safely conclude only his Hunger was removed. Being in his Mask without his wound state, he can now benefit from Force Nexuses.



True, it was a double whammy. As we know, the more Dark Side power a person has the faster their body wears out as shown with Sidious and other references. On top of this, the hunger was metabolizing what he was pulling in, into Hunger Power. Per the guide (just after that quote) he's not concerned with the detriment of the Dark Side to his body, he's just concerned about his hunger (which as I said is consuming him at the same time).



As stated in the quote, the hunger that fills the vessel is power. Echoes as stated in the game itself, can be caused by all manner of things from a handshake to the destruction of a planet. I'm not sure why he would not cast echoes seeing as how powerful he is, and how he is consuming raw Force Energy and causing wounds in the Force. I mean I could go on but still.

===============

I think though in all of this you got the impression that I am asserting he doesn't use the Force at all? Which is not what I'm saying.

It consumes the Force.

It's fueled by the Force.

Where its used, the Force stops existing.

Why in the world would we call it the Force when it is anti-Force?

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, and that's all just his Force powers. It's derived from the Force, it's simply related to his hunger.

Negative, it is clearly stated by the sources I quoted that it is fueled by the Force.

I mean seriously. His hunger uses the Force for Fuel.

If you mean it is derived from the Force as in, it uses the Force for fuel to power itself, sure.

But if you're going to say his hunger which consumes the Force is going to empower his Force Reserves to be used in an attack rather than be consumed... lol, that's very silly indeed. It goes against Nihilus' hunger state to just throw Force energy away instead of feed him and metabolize it.

The hunger takes the Force, turns it into a form of energy, and uses it to empower his ability. That's essentially it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, "hunger" and "vampiric" are used as synonymous adjectives to describe the nature of his power. He's a dark side Force user, not someone from outside the Force, lol. And despite being a Wound in the Force, his powers stem from the Force all the same, not from something outside of it.

I didn't say he's outside of the Force, and I didn't say he wasn't a Dark Side Force User.

His power though is clearly stated as deriving from his hunger.

And his hunger derives its power from being fueled by the Force.



Since I've gotten the hint that its a combat clip, I don't have it. A movie clip, a scene clip, that may be something different.

In any case Kreia as I stated has Dark Healing. This takes life energy from the target and transfers it to the attacker.



I pointed out multiple quotes that state:

a.) His power comes from his hunger.
b.) His hunger is fueled by the Force.
c.) His hunger is shown to be used as a power source for abilities.

Unless you can disqualify those quotes, you can't sit there and act like they don't exist or say what they say.



Its not a fan theory if it has quotes to back it, which I showed. Yes the direct force technique he uses (the direct attack form) is indeed a Sith Technique. It can be used by such as Vitiate/Valkorian WITHOUT the hunger aspect, and in doing so it has to be fueled by Force Energy directly as we saw with the Sith Lords and their assistance in powering the ritual.

As a demonstration of the power in metabolizing Force Energy, we see Nihilus drain people on Malachor V with his unique Force consuming passive, learn to direct it as an attack while studying under Traya, and then use that power to raise his ship from Malachor V. AND THEN devour his first planet with no additional assistance from others. The metabolizing of Force Energy into his Hunger yields great amounts of power.



At the time, his form of feeding was entirely unique and rare. For a being to devour the Force and Life Energy, and leave behind dead spots in the Force, I myself hadn't seen this before KOTOR 2.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Negative, it is clearly stated by the sources I quoted that it is fueled by the Force.

I mean seriously. His hunger uses the Force for Fuel.

If you mean it is derived from the Force as in, it uses the Force for fuel to power itself, sure.

But if you're going to say his hunger which consumes the Force is going to empower his Force Reserves to be used in an attack rather than be consumed... lol, that's very silly indeed. It goes against Nihilus' hunger state to just throw Force energy away instead of feed him and metabolize it.

The hunger takes the Force, turns it into a form of energy, and uses it to empower his ability. That's essentially it.

So the Force is just fuel for this energy/power, is what you're saying? You do realize that's every goddamn ability in Star Wars, right? From telekinesis, to telepathy, to pretty much 99% of powers that exist in the SW mythos are all derived and fueled by the Force.

Nihilus also uses it as fuel, hence it's a Force power, not some random deviant power that doesn't even exist.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@MythLord -

His hunger is more or less the condition he suffers from as a result of having his identity subsumed by Force Drain. All of his power still comes from the Force.

@Miko - I'll respond tomorrow, probably.

As I said, though, the power is defined in the script as a Drain Life:


Uh, that says "Drain Force" and it "Drains his Energy".

Which is exactly what "Drain Force" does both in game, and according to official guides: "The Dark Side Source Book pg. 17,18"

It takes Force Energy from another, and transfers it to yourself.

Now I know where you got that quote:



Yet I can't find a clip for it. I know its supposed to be Dark Side (which isn't the canonical path anyways) but all the videos on the conversation don't have them.



I gave a direct source for it. Now I understand you're stating it's not a "Canon" source, which means not like TCW and the movies?

But in Legends, its a Legends canon established power even outside of the KOTOR 2 campaign guide.

I mean canon in terms of the old EU continuity which is now Legends. KotOR II itself is Legends — obviously we can't have a discussion involving only Disney Canon.

Game mechanics aren't canon unless they're part of the storyline. This so-called dark healing is never defined in the story.

And I gave you a link. It's supposed to be Drain Force, but it's shown as Drain Life in-game.

Originally posted by MythLord
So the Force is just fuel for this energy/power, is what you're saying? You do realize that's every goddamn ability in Star Wars, right? From telekinesis, to telepathy, to pretty much 99% of powers that exist in the SW mythos are all derived and fueled by the Force.

Nihilus also uses it as fuel, hence it's a Force power, not some random deviant power that doesn't even exist.

You're thinking fuels as in electricity going into a light bulb, or an electric toy car running off a batter, which is wrong.

I'm talking Nuclear material in a Nuclear reactor. Alone it produces a form of energy, but when taken through the process of fission, produces another form of energy (heat) which in turn produces another (electricity). Taking a certain energy source, and changing it to another to power an object. THAT is the fueling that occurs.

This is why the hunger must be fueled constantly as more Force Energy is consumed and turned into this power source.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean canon in terms of the old EU continuity which is now Legends. KotOR II itself is Legends — obviously we can't have a discussion involving only Disney Canon.

Game mechanics aren't canon unless they're part of the storyline. This so-called dark healing is never defined in the story.

Dark Healing was defined before the game ever came into existence. What else are we going to disqualify as game mechanics that is not explained in the story line? Force Stasis? Visions? Dark Rage? Ionize (disrupt droid, etc.)? This seems like a bogus position.



Yeah, its the one off example. Per the guides, Drain Force (as I linked) does use life energy to fuel Force power, though no physical harm is done to the target. This is also the case with the same power under the name "Drain Life Essence" (Force Powers for Star Wars pg. 29) Which seems to be the case here.

Seems like it is the exception, or rushed error.

Stasis, Ionize, Vision and Dark Rage are all explored within storylines outside of KotOR II. They're all canon (to Legends) powers. To my knowledge, there is no canon power called Dark Healing. The definitions you gave are basically what Drain Life and Death Field are, and those two are canonical powers.

And it's not a bogus position; it's a statement from Leland Chee.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Stasis, Ionize, Vision and Dark Rage are all explored within storylines outside of KotOR II. They're all canon powers. To my knowledge, there is no canon power called Dark Healing. The definitions you gave are basically what Drain Life and Death Field are, and those two are canonical powers.

And it's not a bogus position; it's a statement from Leland Chee.

Per Leland Chee:



So per Leland, its perfectly acceptable to look at the RPG stat "Dark Healing" and see that the character has that.

Can we call this one solved?

Ah, that must be DC's quote.

Fair enough, despite that quote referring really to what the story group bases their stuff on as opposed to what's canon. Although you agree that it's Drain in any case.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
Its not a fan theory if it has quotes to back it, which I showed. Yes the direct force technique he uses (the direct attack form) is indeed a Sith Technique. It can be used by such as Vitiate/Valkorian WITHOUT the hunger aspect, and in doing so it has to be fueled by Force Energy directly as we saw with the Sith Lords and their assistance in powering the ritual.

As a demonstration of the power in metabolizing Force Energy, we see Nihilus drain people on Malachor V with his unique Force consuming passive, learn to direct it as an attack while studying under Traya, and then use that power to raise his ship from Malachor V. AND THEN devour his first planet with no additional assistance from others. The metabolizing of Force Energy into his Hunger yields great amounts of power.
Look at this case: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/cataclysm-of-planet-ziost/105050/

Vitiate became so powerful that he devastated planet Ziost with his own raw power. I believe that this is the application that Darth Traya was talking about.

Keep in mind that Vitiate also felt hunger and the need to satiate it since Nathema experiment. He also siphoned energy of his subjects non-stop for a period of long time. However, as his CONTROL abilities improved, his capability to control that hunger as well.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
That's really low balling Kreia. These qualities show her to be an expert on the subject:

a.) She learned the dynamics of the ability from a technical aspect. She was able to instruct Nihilus how to take his drain from a passive aura to a world consuming ability by learning of it from the texts in the Trayus academy.
-So she understands it both as a student, and as an instructor, and has knowledge that even the PC doesn't have concerning the dynamics of the ability.

b.) She was a victim of the ability which shows she understands the effects from the empirical victim perspective.
-This allows her to understand what she felt, how it felt, and what did or didn't seem to work when she attempted to resist it (as shown in the cut scene where she braces herself).

c.) She was the agressor with the ability that used it on others.
-This allows her to understand what the ability is capable of from the view of one that deploys the skill.

She has all three components to expertise on the subject. So please stop trying to sell her as an old woman weaving old wives tales.

I'm well aware of all that and I don't dispute the fact that Kreia is an expert. I claimed that she was fallible and prone to wax poetic. These facts are not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
More overall knowledgeable, sure.

And more powerful. The lore is very explicitly clear on this.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
I don't disagree there. What you appear to be missing in this equation (and I may be wrong about your knowledge of Nihilus) is that Nihilus is primarily using a different power source which is an anti-Force mechanism. This is why there is no defense against it. This Hunger Power is fueled by the Force, so attempting to deploy a Force Based power like a resistance of some sort is akin to putting up a wall of liquid oxygen and trying to defend against a blowtorch. In fact, I've only read a page over from this and it seems like more people are missing this than should be.

The last few pages have consisted entirely of you and the others wading arduously through the shitheap that is KOTOR2's incoherent cosmology. Obviously this makes defending Nihilus very difficult.

Nihilus's power derives from an ancient dark side technique. He's never been shown to wield that technique effectively against a prepared adversary (Kreia was usurped with Sion by his side, Katarr was the very definition of a sneak attack, and the Exile and company were immobilized by a different power first), let alone one who is factually stronger and more knowledgeable than he is. Again, until you can prove that Nihilus possesses the means to circumvent the Emperor's colossal advantages - greater power, greater skill, greater knowledge, etc. - there's really no argument to be had.

Originally posted by Miko Hacksaw
You're thinking fuels as in electricity going into a light bulb, or an electric toy car running off a batter, which is wrong.

I'm talking Nuclear material in a Nuclear reactor. Alone it produces a form of energy, but when taken through the process of fission, produces another form of energy (heat) which in turn produces another (electricity). Taking a certain energy source, and changing it to another to power an object. THAT is the fueling that occurs.

This is why the hunger must be fueled constantly as more Force Energy is consumed and turned into this power source.

That, however, makes no sense. There's a reason why his power is called Force Drain. There's no mention of any cosmic power or energy that can be exploited in such a way in the entire Star Wars mythos other than the Force and the anti-Force, but the anti-Force is from another, parallel universe.

I doubt Avellone just decided to make up a new sort of mystical energy out of nowhere for Nihilus.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The last few pages have consisted entirely of you and the others wading arduously through the shitheap that is KOTOR2's incoherent cosmology. Obviously this makes defending Nihilus very difficult.

This is very true.