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I'm curious as to where most of KMC holds Dooku as of his Sith Lord days. Where does he rank compared to Yoda and Sidious? Windu? Vader? Pretty much anything.

Equal to non-Vaapad Mace, slight to moderately below prime Vader in general combative ability due to inferior physicals and force powers.

Below Mace, above Valkorion.

Equal to Mace. Slightly below Vader. Can last a decent length of time against any character in the mythos bar debatably Sidious and GM Luke.

Equal to mace at any time, the only reason Mace was able to combat Sidious at all was because he fed off his emotions, Dooku was always pretty composed in a fight so I'm not sure that Vaapaad would work so well on him.

Better than any TOR character save for Valkorion, whom he could still beat if he plays his cards right.

Just a little Below Ben Kenobi

Originally posted by Azronger
Better than any TOR character save for Valkorion, whom he could still beat if he plays his cards right.
lmfao ^

I'm with the general consensus that he's around Mace level. But easily Tier 8, above Maul. But Mace could beat Dooku.

Between Kenobi and Mace.

mace level
but most certainly sub-jaina

kek

Originally posted by NewGuy01
kek

Originally posted by relentless1
Equal to mace at any time, the only reason Mace was able to combat Sidious at all was because he fed off his emotions, Dooku was always pretty composed in a fight so I'm not sure that Vaapaad would work so well on him.

Ehhhh not entirely. Mace definitely a better pure duelist than Sidious. Mace was a master of all seven forms, and a practised master at that. Sidious didn't practice at all, at least not for over a decade I'm pretty sure, so even though he had mastered all seven forms, he was out of practice. But, Sidious' augmentation made him fast enough that it didn't matter how sloppy he was, because his speed made up for it.

It's also my opinion that before Vappad kicked in Sidious was prolonging the fight. I use the scene in the movie to demonstrate this when Sidious exposes Mace and has his blade pointed straight at the chest, showing him to be the better duelist. But after that Vappad channelled, making them deadlock even fighters.

Just wanted to clarify that.

And true, Dooku didn't use emotions typical of dark side users in a fight. But I'm pretty certain in the comics Mace and Dooku vs each other and Mace is show to be superior.

Around 10 BBY Canon Vader

ben kenobi/rebels maul/rebels ahsoka level

Originally posted by samappo
Mace definitely a better pure duelist than Sidious.

Err, a fair 80-85% of the evidence points in the opposite direction, actually.



Unconfirmed rumor. It may be true, but it's never suggested in any official material, to my knowledge.

On the other hand, Sidious is confirmed in a number of sources to be a master of every form with every weapon.



Oh god, not another youtube junkie. This is blatantly false, Sidious employs one of the most intricate and efficient fighting styles in the mythos, and his movements have been described by master swordsmen as never carrying him a millimeter out of position.



No evidence at all to suggest Vaapad has a channel time to begin with.



What you say about Dooku's is true (he elaborates on this in LoE,) but the latter claim is false. Mace has never been shown to have the upper hand against Dooku in combat, ever.

-

1. Darth Sidious
2. Yoda / Knightfall Vader
3. Luke Skywalker
4. Darth Vader
5. Quinlan Vos
6. Mace Windu / Darth Tyranus
7. Mace Windu / Darth Tyranus
8. Obi-Wan Kenobi
9. Maul
10. Ahsoka Tano

5. Quinlan Vos
What the hell...?

Yeah, no.

Hmm, sorry about the assumption. But are you sure it says he is a master with every weapon though?



Fair enough. I just joined this forum because I've watched a lot of the versus series on youtube, so I thought I'd hop on here and see other opinions. Because some of the youtuber opinions, even for me, are quite retarded. Like Jensaari believes Yoda is an overrated swordsman and that Darth Zannah could outspar him. Or that Plagueis was a Niman specialist and wasn't a good duelist, which I think he is.

I mean, as you said, Sidious is described as never carrying himself a millimeter out of position, yet he hadn't trained in over a decade. So I'm assuming that Yoda out dueled Sidious simply because Yoda had time to practice?





True. Youtube feelz



My bad, I haven't read many books/comics during the clone wars era.

Check my quotes in the prior page, Sam.

Legends:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Prime!Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
13. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
14. Gethzerion
15. Cade Skywalker
16. Tau
17. Soa / Adelade / Tassar
18. Jaina Solo Fel
19. Mace Windu
20. Darth Tyranus
21. Arcann
22. Darth Malgus
23. Ulic Qel-Droma
24. Jerec
25. Darth Wyyrlok III

Originally posted by Geistalt
Legends:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Prime!Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
13. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
14. Gethzerion
15. Cade Skywalker
16. Tau
17. Soa / Adelade / Tassar
18. Jaina Solo Fel
19. Mace Windu
20. Darth Tyranus
21. Arcann
22. Darth Malgus
23. Ulic Qel-Droma
24. Jerec
25. Darth Wyyrlok III

I like that list. Plagueis is actually getting recognised )))) and Revan!

I left out Vaylin and Nihilus for obvious reasons.

And meant to use Malak instead of Jerec.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Check my quotes in the prior page, Sam.

Ok cool, I didn't see your response there. So then how would you guys explain his duel with Yoda? Because in the novelisation I'm quite sure Yoda actually disarms Sidious. Apparently they're in that central pod, and due to the lack of room for Ataru's bladework, it was a downhill battle for Yoda. So out of desperation he disarms Sidious. I haven't read it myself though.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I left out Vaylin and Nihilus for obvious reasons.

And meant to use Malak instead of Jerec.

Yeah I recently played KoTFE and I really don't understand what's up with Vaylin.

Originally posted by samappo
Hmm, sorry about the assumption. But are you sure it says he is a master with every weapon though?

If you look, Ant provided the relevant quote on the last page.



That's fair, just prepare to have all that cancer you've accumulated from there thoroughly stamped out.



Well, the idea that Palpatine hadn't touched a lightsaber in the 10 years prior to RotS has been retconned several times over, but let's put that aside for now.

The short answer is, no. It's ridiculous, but even though Palpatine considered lightsabers obsolete, and had apparently (before TCW's revelations) spent a decade without practice, he's still the best duelist we've seen in the movies according to Gillard. You'll find differing opinions here, of course, but I don't think the RotS duel proves Yoda's a better duelist than Sidious at all--he just had the advantage in that particular instance, because Sidious didn't have room to maneuver on that small podium (he dropped his lightsaber because he nearly fell off the edge) whereas little Yoda did.

Originally posted by samappo
Ok cool, I didn't see your response there. So then how would you guys explain his duel with Yoda? Because in the novelisation I'm quite sure Yoda actually disarms Sidious. Apparently they're in that central pod, and due to the lack of room for Ataru's bladework, it was a downhill battle for Yoda. So out of desperation he disarms Sidious. I haven't read it myself though.
"Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

I'd say Yoda disarmed Sidious thanks to his environmental advantage. Yoda has free room to move around the exterior of the Senate pod whereas Palpatine is stuck immobile in the center. Further, any disadvantages Yoda has with height is rendered mute. Thus, Yoda can emphasize on the advantages of his superior agility and fighting style (the situation would be potentially disfavorable for a standard Ataru master, but given Yoda's height, it's a different situation) while negating most of his disadvantages, whereas Palpatine is primarily stuck twisting and turning without anywhere to go (and being pinned in a particular location certainly doesn't seem to be what Palpatine enjoys based on all his movement against Darth Maul and Savage Opress). Alternatively though, it can be explained with them being roughly equals and Yoda happened to win the day they fought (a coin-toss that landed on heads, essentially).

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The short answer is, no. It's ridiculous, but even though Palpatine considered lightsabers obsolete, and had apparently (before TCW's revelations) spent a decade without practice, he's still the best duelist we've seen in the movies according to Gillard. You'll find differing opinions here, of course, but I don't think the RotS duel proves Yoda's a better duelist than Sidious at all--he just had the advantage in that particular instance, because Sidious didn't have room to maneuver on that small podium (he dropped his lightsaber because he nearly fell off the edge) whereas little Yoda did.

Your always better at explaining things in less sentences than me. mmm

Originally posted by Geistalt
Legends:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Prime!Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
13. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
14. Gethzerion
15. Cade Skywalker
16. Tau
17. Soa / Adelade / Tassar
18. Jaina Solo Fel
19. Mace Windu
20. Darth Tyranus
21. Arcann
22. Darth Malgus
23. Ulic Qel-Droma
24. Jerec
25. Darth Wyyrlok III

mmm

Where's suit Vader?

And no way is Jaina that high.

Right above Gethzerion.

Since y'all gon throw a b!tch-fit if I rank him under Cade.

You have Tau disgustingly high, too.

He wouldn't make my top 40.

Above Maul and Malgus, roughly in the prime Bane realm

Dooku>Mace>Maul>Vader

I'm willing and eager to separate right from wrong regarding a lot of things.



Even if you consider TCW, Palpatine wasn't really practicing anyway. The main thing he did with his lightsabers was duel Maul and his brother. A couple of fights in between 10+ years of no practice whatsoever doesn't really affect anything, especially when that duel against Maul was him playing around basically.


Ant,



Who said this? Gillard? I'm curious.



Thanks for explaining it. I'd prefer combing the explanations together though: they are roughly equals in lightsaber combat, and the coin toss that decided the fight was where they fought: the senate pod. It gave the advantage to Yoda, turning a 50/50 fight into Yoda's favor.

Which essentially means that on neutral ground, there'd be a 50/50 chance of either winning. But I don't think you can dismiss it that easily, since Gillard definitively states that Sidious is the greatest duelist seen in the movies.

Originally posted by samappo
Who said this? Gillard? I'm curious.

Equal to, or slightly below, Mace.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Equal to, or slightly below, Mace.
I feel responding to "where to rank Dooku" with anything involving Mace somehow ends up with a more ambiguous ranking than what he started with, which was nothing.

Yeah, I guess there's no sources which mention Mace and Dooku in regards to lightsaber skill.

He actually vsed and matched Maul, albeit ultimately being outsmarted and losing the duel. Maul is a definitive 8. So in my opinion Jinn is high 7 low 8.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Unconfirmed rumor. It may be true, but it's never suggested in any official material, to my knowledge.

He is the recognised master of the Order's fighting techniques.
--Revised Core Rulebook

Yeah, Yoda isn't a better duelist than Sidious: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/darth-sidious-canon-vs-yoda-rots-and-mace-windu-ro-1855208/#js-message-18

Sidious>Yoda>Vader>Mace=Tyranus

Not only LS but also Force, powers, understanding/transcending, wisdom

1. Grandmaster Luke/Chosen one Anakin
1.25 Yoda
1.5 Sidious
1.75 The Ones
2. Vader/Old Ben/Plagueis
2.5 Dooku/Qui-Gon
3. Mace Windu/Ahsoka Tano/the Council Members (some of them)
4. Old Maul/Snoke
5. ...
6. Rey
7. Kylo Ren

Qui-Gon isn't above Mace in anything except connection to the Living Force.

That and mastery of Form IV

Probably, but that's not a fact.

Originally posted by Geistalt
1. Darth Sidious
2. Yoda / Knightfall Vader
3. Luke Skywalker
4. Darth Vader
5. Quinlan Vos
6. Mace Windu / Darth Tyranus
7. Mace Windu / Darth Tyranus
8. Obi-Wan Kenobi
9. Maul
10. Ahsoka Tano

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAhAHAAHAHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH
A Vos at number 5?! AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Mace destroys Vader btw

Originally posted by Geistalt
Legends:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Prime!Yoda
4. Knightfall!Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
13. Darth Caedus / Exar Kun
14. Gethzerion
15. Cade Skywalker
16. Tau
17. Soa / Adelade / Tassar
18. Jaina Solo Fel
19. Mace Windu
20. Darth Tyranus
21. Arcann
22. Darth Malgus
23. Ulic Qel-Droma
24. Jerec
25. Darth Wyyrlok III

Mace and Dooku rape Jaina, Cade and Starkiller
Ulic is equal to Dooku
Malgus takes Arcann
Gethzerion and Wyyyyyyyrlok suck balls
Wtf is Kyp doing here
Wtf is Jerec doing here

Originally posted by SunRazer
Qui-Gon isn't above Mace in anything except connection to the Living Force.

So he is above Mace in mastery, knowledge of the living Force and his Wisdom.
Oh and
also Form IV.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Mace and Dooku rape Jaina, Cade and Starkiller
Ulic is equal to Dooku
Malgus takes Arcann
Gethzerion and Wyyyyyyyrlok suck balls
Wtf is Kyp doing here
Wtf is Jerec doing here Of course you'd get all pissy 'bout them lower-tiers

Pay no attention to ching, he's a troglodyte.

In terms of Sith? Top 20, maybe. Overall, he prolly wouldn't scratch the top 40 list.

by virtue of challenging prime vader despite being implied to be at a disadvantage because vader trained her(feloni, the padawna lives), and by virtue of being indicated by authority as a superior of rebels maul should rightfully be placed alongside ben right under prime vadern and quite possibly on the level of dooku

by virtue of being potrayed as a luke level combatant throughout her prime, being indicated by luke to be a combative match for anyone in the order(in a quote where he refers to himself as a jedi master), fotj Jaina should be right there with luke, and fully cpaable of stomping the crap out of a scrub like dooku.

Irrelevant comparisons to previous versions of characters notwithstanding

Greater than 8 Old Master Mauls

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I feel responding to "where to rank Dooku" with anything involving Mace somehow ends up with a more ambiguous ranking than what he started with, which was nothing.
True. mmm
Above guys like Arcann & Malgus, solidly above Maul, around Sadow in the Force, above everyone, bar the absolute highest , in 'sabers.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
and by virtue of being indicated by authority as a superior of rebels maul should rightfully be placed alongside ben right under prime vadern


She's definitely a lot closer to Rebels Maul than she is to Ben Kenobi.

Their fights against Maul make that pretty clear tbh.

But all of them are below Vader for sure? Surely Maul couldn't contend with Vader. Even in the new canon.

Well going by ANH Vader >/= Ben Kenobi... So, technically he should also be capable of blitzing Maul. But that doesn't necessarily mean he would blitz Maul.

But it's been confirmed numerous times he would beat Maul, whether it's a blitz or not.

Confirmed numerous times in the new canon?

Originally posted by samappo
Confirmed numerous times in the new canon?


Yeah,

1) Maul admitted it.

2) Filoni said it, that has Maul and Vader met in "Twilight of the Apprentice" that Vader would have killed him.

3) Him losing to Kenobi is also proof tbh

Quanchi would disagree. Haha.

Vader can't blitz Maul lel.

Low enough to get ragdolled by a serious Kyp Durron.

Dooku is roughly equal to Mace which falls below Yoda/Sidious/Zoanakin and above everybody else

Half as good as Sheev, twice as good as Valk

Originally posted by relentless1
Dooku is roughly equal to Mace


Well probably not in Canon.

Slightly below Mace Windu, below Vader. Definitely above Maul, ROTS Kenobi, or any other Jedi in the PT barring Mace, Yoda and Anakin.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Half as good as Sheev, twice as good as Valk

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well probably not in Canon.

isnt it canon that Jedi Dooku was able to best Mace in sparring?

Originally posted by relentless1
isnt it canon that Jedi Dooku was able to best Mace in sparring?


No.

Originally posted by SunRazer


it's funny because it's true.

That's actually not why it's funny.

I've almost finished Darth Plagueis, and the Sith Lord mentions that Dooku is considered one of the best duellists in the order, and nothing I've seen ever specifically states Dooku > Windu

Reconciling sources, Mace Windu and Dooku were direct peers in lightsaber combat and the Force (with Yoda suggesting Dooku being slightly better) prior to Dooku leaving. Sources state that Dooku's skills further increased after leaving the Jedi Order (not to mention newfound dark-side abilities). Thus, Dooku was likely superior to Mace Windu at the start of the war (based on their respective performances against Asajj Ventress and Sora Bulq), but Mace Windu surpassed him in the late-war due to all the battlefield experience (based on Nick Gillard's levels and his performance against Palpatine), resulting in him being a high 8, low 9 whereas Dooku just an 8.

I also liked the theory that one fellow talked about, what with Mace being a high-8 normally, and shifting into low-9 territory if he fully gives into Vaapad like in RotS.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Reconciling sources, Mace Windu and Dooku were direct peers in lightsaber combat and the Force (with Yoda suggesting Dooku being slightly better) prior to Dooku leaving. Sources state that Dooku's skills further increased after leaving the Jedi Order (not to mention newfound dark-side abilities). Thus, Dooku was likely superior to Mace Windu at the start of the war (based on their respective performances against Asajj Ventress and Sora Bulq), but Mace Windu surpassed him in the late-war due to all the battlefield experience (based on Nick Gillard's levels and his performance against Palpatine), resulting in him being a high 8, low 9 whereas Dooku just an 8.