Why Yoda *is* Great

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samappo
Okay so I rewatched this video by Jensaarai and he literally has no idea what he's talking about. His main blunder is saying that because Yoda was not a creative duelist; he was inherently slave to form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2N7pI543fA


This is ridiculous. The same applies to Sidious. Oh wait, what's that? Sidious and Yoda are the only definitive 9's in the movie. Mace borders between 8 and 9, and Anakin is 9 when amped.

Clearly slave to form doesn't really matter when the two movie duelists who mastered all seven forms and didn't retool any form to make their own style (as far as we know) are the two best duelists in the saga. Therefore 'slave to form' matters not wink

Also, his comments about the duel with Sidious. Jen says Yoda could have used Form II or Form III and not tired himself as quickly. Doubtful. Yoda was restricted to using Form IV offensively because his stature wouldn't allow him to use other forms for too long; or else his opponent would be able to take advantage of his small size and small blade.

Plus who cares? Yoda took the advantageous 'high ground' in a manner of speaking and using that disarmed Sidious. So it's not like he did poorly in that fight.

Jen states that Yoda trained himself to respond to the book. No creativity... while this isn't entirely false, it isn't entirely true either. Form VII was not wrote response. It required the practitioner to immerse themselves in the battle and enjoy it, and used randomised sequences and attacks. You can't just learn Juyo sequences.

Regardless, the two definitive 9's of the Star Wars saga are Sidious and Yoda, and both were textbook masters of all forms, neither really retooled any of the forms for their own use. They were just simply that good at lightsaber combat that they didn't need to.

Rockydonovang
In the comic of aotc he actually did make use of soresu vs dooku. And given that dooku ended tiring himself out, it could be argued yoda's soresu is > dooku's makashi

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by samappo
he literally has no idea what he's talking about.

No reason to go past that accurate statement. smile

samappo
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
In the comic of aotc he actually did make use of soresu vs dooku. And given that dooku ended tiring himself out, it could be argued yoda's soresu is > dooku's makashi

That's another thing I forgot to add. Good point. It's not like Yoda couldn't mix forms during combat. He used Ataru offensively complimented by other forms.



Rofl.

Deronn_solo
Who gives a shit?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by samappo
Okay so I rewatched this video by Jensaarai and he literally has no idea what he's talking about. His main blunder is saying that because Yoda was not a creative duelist; he was inherently slave to form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2N7pI543fA


This is ridiculous. The same applies to Sidious. Oh wait, what's that? Sidious and Yoda are the only definitive 9's in the movie. Mace borders between 8 and 9, and Anakin is 9 when amped.

Clearly slave to form doesn't really matter when the two movie duelists who mastered all seven forms and didn't retool any form to make their own style (as far as we know) are the two best duelists in the saga. Therefore 'slave to form' matters not wink

Also, his comments about the duel with Sidious. Jen says Yoda could have used Form II or Form III and not tired himself as quickly. Doubtful. Yoda was restricted to using Form IV offensively because his stature wouldn't allow him to use other forms for too long; or else his opponent would be able to take advantage of his small size and small blade.

Plus who cares? Yoda took the advantageous 'high ground' in a manner of speaking and using that disarmed Sidious. So it's not like he did poorly in that fight.

Jen states that Yoda trained himself to respond to the book. No creativity... while this isn't entirely false, it isn't entirely true either. Form VII was not wrote response. It required the practitioner to immerse themselves in the battle and enjoy it, and used randomised sequences and attacks. You can't just learn Juyo sequences.

Regardless, the two definitive 9's of the Star Wars saga are Sidious and Yoda, and both were textbook masters of all forms, neither really retooled any of the forms for their own use. They were just simply that good at lightsaber combat that they didn't need to.

"Sigh."

That video is six years old. He has since apologised for it and admitted that he was far too critical of Yoda in it.

In a later video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCYDE_BIilo

He gives a far more positive analysis of Yoda's skills.

Originally posted by samappo
Sidious and Yoda are the only definitive 9's in the movie. Mace borders between 8 and 9, and Anakin is 9 when amped.

You are giving WAY too much importance to "pie in the sky" numbers here.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And given that dooku ended tiring himself out, it could be argued yoda's soresu is > dooku's makashi

No it couldn't. Dooku had just fought Obi-Wan and Anakin while Yoda was "fresh as a daisy." Plus Yoda was also exhausted after the fight.

samappo
Originally posted by chilled monkey
"Sigh."

That video is six years old. He has since apologised for it and admitted that he was far too critical of Yoda in it.

In a later video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCYDE_BIilo

He gives a far more positive analysis of Yoda's skills.



You are giving WAY too much importance to "pie in the sky" numbers here.



No it couldn't. Dooku had just fought Obi-Wan and Anakin while Yoda was "fresh as a daisy." Plus Yoda was also exhausted after the fight.

Fair enough I'll watch the video.

No I'm not giving too much importance. Level 9 is only occupied by Yoda and Sidious definitively. I used this to show that just using the forms in a textbook doesn't mean you're a worse off duelist.

samappo
Originally posted by samappo
Fair enough I'll watch the video.

No I'm not giving too much importance. Level 9 is only occupied by Yoda and Sidious definitively. I used this to show that just using the forms in a textbook way doesn't mean you're a worse off duelist.

samappo
I watched the video aaaaand he improved but not by much. He stills goes into more detail talking about Yoda's flaws than his strengths. He's just lowkeying his opinions instead of presenting them out loud.

I love how he says "Yoda isn't seen disarming anyone, all he does it bash down his opponent's guard." (paraphrasing) yet Yoda disarms Sidious ???

Apparently a defensive fighter would be able to stop him. Basically hinting at Kenobi. Doubtful though. Kenobi on his duel on Mustafar concedes Vader as the better swordsman and knows Vader would break his defenses eventually. Vader just happened to *** up by being overconfident. On neutral ground Vader would have killed Kenobi. So the same could be applied to a potential Yoda vs Kenobi. Kenobi is also only an 8, Yoda is a 9, and the gap between 8 and 9 is quite massive, more so than the gap between any other two levels, so.

SunRazer
You don't need to respond to these videos, especially Jensaari's inane ramblings about Yoda. Some of these YouTube analyses are the equivalent of setting yourself up for Fool's Mate in chess. I mean, we've had Tholme > Zannah and Zannah > Yoda, lmao.

samappo
Sorta wanted to see if anyone could support his claims.

SunRazer
No. Because they're factually incorrect. Acting like Yoda and Sidious are low-council tier in sabers is the equivalent of believing the Earth is flat in this day and age. Or thinking that 3 x 3 = 3.

samappo
Lmfao.

MythLord
Thank you for bringing to our attention what we already know. Good to see more people standing against Jen, tho. thumb up

samappo
Only recently joined KMC so had no idea.

cs_zoltan
Everyone shitting on poor shampoo for trying.

relentless1
Originally posted by samappo
Yoda disarms Sidious ???


theres no definitive proof on film that Yoda actually does disarm Sidious, for all we know Sidious withdrew to the high ground with his saber intact

samappo
Yoda disarms Sidious in the novelisation.

SunRazer
No, he does it in the junior novel, not the adult novel.

samappo
That's what I meant. What does happen in the adult novel anyway? Does it extrapolate?

SunRazer
In the adult novel, Yoda is never depicted as gaining the advantage at any point, whether in sabers or the Force. The novel makes it explicit that Palpatine is more powerful; dueling ability isn't made clear but we can presume that they were at least equals.

samappo
I think Sidious was slightly better, just because of Gillard's statements. But they were roughly equal, yes.

SunRazer
I'm talking about the novel. I know what Gillard said; I have the quotes on my respect thread.

In fairness, there is one source claiming that Yoda's skill was unrivaled - said sourcebook also discussing Sidious at length. It also comes after the 2005 quotes, but one could easily argue that the RotS stuff takes precedence since it comes from film-based material and one of the quotes comes from Lucas himself. And also that they're far more varied and numerous in nature.

samappo
Respect thread for Sidious?

Yeah I'd agree that RotS material comes first.

NewGuy01
No, you don't really see much of the fight in the novel. Also, Sidious' style is definitely retooled and unique.

samappo
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, you don't really see much of the fight in the novel. Also, Sidious' style is definitely retooled and unique.

What makes you say that?

NewGuy01
Literally every description we've ever gotten about his lightsaber style. It doesn't cleanly fit with any of the classic seven.

samappo
He just uses the seven forms as necessary, like Yoda, at least that's the impression I get. Plus the fact that Sidious calls Form VII the Sith form leads me to believe that Sidious' first response was Juyo, just as Form IV was for Yoda.

SunRazer
He blends all seven forms; his style is "constantly changing" per Lucas.

NewGuy01
He factually has his own distinctive fighting style, which doesn't fit the bill of any of the classical forms. It's clearly some sort of hybridization. thumb up

That said, this is another problem with the youtube gang's analyses. Regardless of what forms they've mastered, almost every relevant character has a unique fighting style; lightsaber forms make up the basis, but (as Temp would put it,) lightsaber duels are organic, not mechanical. High-level Jedi don't tend to be limited by the constraints of their chosen form--mastering the form is about more than perfecting the stances and strikes, after all--it's about how effective your application of those things are in combat scenario. Yoda and Qui-Gon are both Ataru practitioners, but their fighting styles aren't even resemblant of one another's.

AncientPower
He disarms Sidious in the Illustrated Screenplay, which should be borderline Canon.

samappo
Originally posted by SunRazer
He blends all seven forms; his style is "constantly changing" per Lucas.

Good point. Wouldn't that be seen more as just switching between forms very quickly?



Good points.



True, but I just found something. In the script for ROTS, which is closest to the movie we can get, it goes like this:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The script also mentions the fight as fast and ferocious. Sidious 'seeks refuge' in the pod, and Yoda leaps up and they continue fighting.

So instead of Yoda outright disarming him, Palpatine just nearly falls and drops the lightsaber, but recovers instantly with lightning.

samappo
Though I still think Yoda had the environmental advantage.

relentless1
Originally posted by samappo
Though I still think Yoda had the environmental advantage.

oh for sure he did, thats what I found compelling about their fight, it was a stalemate due to environment, some sun tzu stuff right there. Had that not been the case though I think Sidious would've taken the fight.

samappo
Originally posted by relentless1
oh for sure he did, thats what I found compelling about their fight, it was a stalemate due to environment, some sun tzu stuff right there. Had that not been the case though I think Sidious would've taken the fight.

^ yep, Yoda was free to move around the pod and Sidious was forced to sit in the middle basically. Though to be fair Sidious put himself in that position.

AncientPower
Actually, Ataru is heavily favoured in wide open areas, a single Senate Pod hardly qualifies.

samappo
You're not taking into consideration Yoda's size.

MythLord
Which wouldn't really help that much. Since he can only leap around in a very limited space if he wants to actually engage Sidious.

In fact, the Junior novelisation outright states Yoda's size and poor positioning is the reason for his defeat.

samappo
Yeah but compared to Sidious, who was to remain stationary, I'd still give Yoda the advantage.

But Yoda's defeat happened after the lightsaber duel, not during.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by samappo
Only recently joined KMC so had no idea.

Don't let the bozos on this board drag you down and brainwash you. Their hatred for Jensaarai1 is ridiculously overblown and unwarranted.

Yes, his view of Yoda's skills is dubious and he has made some head-scratching verdicts, but the fact is most of his videos are amazing. He has a remarkable ability to give detailed analyses of sparsely-featured characters and make some brilliant extrapolations. His videos give me inspiration in my writing, both for Star Wars, other series and original fiction. They're helpful in devising statistics for characters and in writing fight scenes.

What is Character A's typical approach to battle? How does his personality and experiences influence it? How does he respond to different scenarios? How do I keep his fights consistent but varied enough to avoid being repetitive? These are all important points to consider when writing fight scenes and videos like his are very helpful to me.

I implore you to watch his videos and learn for yourself. Don't be like the close-minded morons who can't even provide answers as to why they hate his work.

samappo
Uh, he does put a lot of effort into his videos, A for that, but any conclusion he makes? Help me God.

Kenobi > Plagueis lmfao

Beniboybling
Jensaarai is a clueless moron yeah. smileOriginally posted by chilled monkey
Don't let the bozos on this board drag you down and brainwash you. Their hatred for Jensaarai1 is ridiculously overblown and unwarranted.

Yes, his view of Yoda's skills is dubious and he has made some head-scratching verdicts, but the fact is most of his videos are amazing. He has a remarkable ability to give detailed analyses of sparsely-featured characters and make some brilliant extrapolations. His videos give me inspiration in my writing, both for Star Wars, other series and original fiction. They're helpful in devising statistics for characters and in writing fight scenes.

What is Character A's typical approach to battle? How does his personality and experiences influence it? How does he respond to different scenarios? How do I keep his fights consistent but varied enough to avoid being repetitive? These are all important points to consider when writing fight scenes and videos like his are very helpful to me.

I implore you to watch his videos and learn for yourself. Don't be like the close-minded morons who can't even provide answers as to why they hate his work. #triggered.

samappo
My bad I'm pretty sure Kenobi > Plagueis was Evan's video.... ah well Jen would probably support that view anyway.

It's so mind boggling though. Goes into a 40-50 minute discussion to conclude that Kenobi wins when anyone with a brain would take 5 seconds to conclude that Plagueis would ragdoll Kenobi.

Pretty much anyone Sidious ragdolls up to the end of RotS, Plagueis would ragdoll as well.

samappo
So yes, Plagueis could ragdoll Maul and Savage, lol.

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